Faulty By Design?: When Ships' Plans Fail
Vložit
- čas přidán 3. 02. 2024
- Some ship design failures can stem from simple mathematical errors - but others are broader and more complex. British battlecruisers like HMS Invincible and roll-on-roll-off (Ro-ro) ferries like MV Estonia don't have very much in common, but the whole success of their function hinges on critical design Achilles' heels. In the case of the battlecruiser a lessened armour scheme and, for the ferries, a whopping great hole through which to load cars. When the designs worked, they worked well; but when small failures were introduced or the ships were pushed beyond their capabilities then things could get fatal. Featuring stories of the battleship HMS Dreadnought, battlecruisers HMS Invincible, HMS Indefatigable, HMS Queen Mary and SMS Seydlitz and the ferries MV Princess Victoria, MV Estonia and MV Herald of Free Enterprise.
Oceanliner Designs explores the design, construction, engineering and operation of history’s greatest vessels- from Titanic to Queen Mary and from the Empress of Ireland to the Lusitania. Join maritime researcher and illustrator Michael Brady as he tells the stories behind some of history's most famous ocean liners and machines!
#ships #engineering #disaster #fail #story #documentary #design #boats #titanic #navy #ferries #stories #history #facts #maritime - Zábava
My mom went a cruise with her family on the Viking Sally (M/S Estonia) in the late 1980’s. There was this kinda famous artist performing on the main stage (can’t remember his name) Anyways my grandma had mentioned to my mom that she thought he was ”slimey” Y’know, corny and stuff. Anyways my mom being the small child that she was, took that literally, and was determined to see for herself. So she got some flowers, walked up to him and gave them to him. He thanked her and gave her a hug in return. Mom comes up running to grandma and exclaims ”He wasn’t slimey!”🤣
The opening line of this made me chuckle
"Ships are, and this may surprise you, very big" Just the kind of information I come to this channel for, my friend, Mike Brady 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Early in the morning of Wed, 28 September 1994, I woke up to helicopters hovering over the house I lived in in Turku (Finland). Much to my surprise, one had Swedish markings and it was trying to land at the local hospital (TYKS). Opening the TV I learned that a "ferry had experienced and accident" and thought they might be bringing some patients for care.
As the morning advanced, the full scale of the disaster started to dawn.
Much respect to the rescuers and my deepest condolences to those who lost loved ones. ❤
I remember being in Turku university hospital dentist (the round building) on the morning of Estonia disaster and while I was being tortured on the dentists chair I watched through the window as helicopters landed one after the another bringing in survivors and a lots and lots of body bags. Helipad was about 100 meters from where I sat on the second floor, it was a somber sight, there weren't many survivors at this point 😔
Rest in peace to all of the victims of Estonia and my condolences to the victims families.
I'm Finnish too and i had just recently started my military service at the time. It was the first night we spent out of barracks in tents somewhere in the woods of Eastern Finland. The weather was not nice, rained so much and we got hardly any sleep all night. In the morning an army truck driver said he heard on radio of a ship disaster in Bay of Finland.
We were so exhausted at the moment that i couldn't really process the information and it was vague info anyway at that point. Later that day when we dried up back in the barracks we started to realize what had happened.
It's definitely one of the collective flashbulb memories for people around here...everyone remembers it vividly and it touched us deeply, still does, even though there weren't many Finns aboard.
But our ships, Silja Line and Viking Line were there leading the rescue operation and most survivors (and bodies) were brought to Finland. Bless the souls who were lost 💙
Ooooh, Estonia! Very cool to see you talk about this ship, I'm from Sweden and here it's pretty much just Titanic and Estonia (and Vasa) that are the main sinking disasters that are in popular knowledge, so it's cool to see her discussed internationally as well!
Well, hello from Estonia 🇪🇪 😁
Well as a Swed i can confirme your comment
@@redbaron3344 Hello from Sweden!
Fun fact, she had a couple of names throughout her career. She started out as the Viking-Sally for the Viking Line before being renamed the Silja-Star for the Silja Lines, Wasa King for the Wasa-Lines and finally Estonia for Estline.
Now, technically speaking the Estonia wasn't a ship. These are ferries, and unlike ships, ferries aren't particularly seaworthy in comparison. Then again, neither are those silly looking cruise ships even though they are nominally ships but lack sufficient freeboard.
I'm Estonian and I was a teenager when the Estonia sank. In addition to just the overall shock of it, there was a personal connection - my mother travelled to Sweden around that time and I wasn't sure what ship she was on. Luckily she wasn't on the Estonia and her trip started the following morning. She told me afterwards that they did stop at the Estonia's sinking location and her ship took part in the rescue efforts.
Estonia! I am from Finland and I remember this disaster. Hard to believe it has been 30 years since it. Thank you for talking about her too.
F EU
Bro is british @@user-ej1dh3hb6l
There’s a great and horrifying article online in The Atlantic magazine that has eyewitness accounts of the Estonia sinking.
@@user-ej1dh3hb6l FÅRK DIG!
why did my reply get deleted@@user-ej1dh3hb6l
Estonia's bow ramp was kind of designed to fail together with the bow visor. It was too long to just close the hole when lifted up. Part of it went higher than the deck on top and was covered by a "hump" in the top of the visor. So when the visor broke off, it hung from the ramp and the ramp wasn't designed to carry such a load, so the falling visor pulled the ramp open.
I have traveled on that ship. Back when its name was Viking Sally and it was running between Finland and Sweden. And it was not the only sunk ship that I have been a passenger on. The other one was Viking Saga, later named Sally Albatross. A navigation error brought it to too shallow water and it contacted the rocky sea bottom and started taking in water to too many compartments Titanic style. Its crew was able to beach it and prevent if from sinking completely so there was no loss of life. Even lifeboats were not needed because people could simply walk out of the ship onto the sea ice. It sat half sunken there for weeks but was eventually raised, repaired and returned to service.
sounds like that ship should have had some kind of switch that would have opened if the visor was not tightly closed and trigger a master caution on the helm(or whatever the boat term is for the primary "Oh Shit" alarm).
@@filanfyretracker There was such an alarm but only with a light (no sound) and it wasn't very well placed on the bridge so it's not certain that they observed the alarm at all. Further, there seems to have been uncertainty about such a basic thing as if green or red means open. It was different for different doors, green for open on some and red for open on others. Not a good design.
Remind me to never sail on a ship after you lmao
The Viking Saga was a disaster in general, having had multiple fires onboard, having to make very big rebuild due to them, ones that go as far as to make the ship class as a totally different ship
@@Obi_Wan_Kenobi_027 The unsinkable Molly @vsikifi
I am extremely impressed by the sheer force of will and restraint you've shown in talking about accidents with Ro-Ro ships and not calling them "Roll-on, Roll-over's" even once. Truly the trained human mind in action is a marvel to behold!
Sipping my tea this morning while my friend Mike Brady cheerfully discusses some major maritime disasters. 😊
Cheers from Michigan
He's actually my friend Mike Brady.
I worked on the Belfast to Scotland route on a ro-ro ferry for over four years. I can tell you of the furoristy of the weather is so very humbling even on a large well built ship. But thanks to the lessons learnt from the Estonia and Herald of Free Enterprise I never once felt the ship would succumb to the sea.
Unfortunately humans feels about if a ship will sink or not.
Are irrelevant.
Small world another Belfast man on this channel
only ro-ro I've ever been on never left Puget Sound. That model wasn't even operated in stormy weather. Seemingly in large part due to not actually having a full door.
More like the ferries being double-ended and not very large @@marhawkman303
Thank you for finally mentioning Estonia! I really feel like her and her unfortunate fate are not talked about enough.
I missed boarding the Herald of Free Enterprise by 5 minutes. Driving to Zeebrugge my petrol light came on, and I stopped to re-fill. I ended up in the stand-by queue of a dozen or so cars. The six or so in front got on, and I and the rest were turned away, so I drove to Dunkirk to catch a later sailing. Arriving in Dover in the early hours we heard the news.
If you had just made it to the Herald of Free Enterprise you might have spotted the bow door left open behind you and mentioned it to one of the crew.
We had also planned to travel on this sailing back to the yUK. In the end we chose to travel the next day. I can remember us watching the news on TV in horror - and no small measure of relief.
Wow, talk about a lucky escape!
Yes!! Very happy to see you mention this disaster. It's frankly a little strange how under the radar the sinking of M/S Estonia flies, internationally speaking. I'm from Finland and for Estonians, Swedes and us it's been a lifelong search for answers. Would love a longer video on the topic.
I am just happy that MS Estonia was mentioned on this channel. I hope there will be more of Estonia and Baltic Sea . And also, hello from your Estonian 🇪🇪 subscriber 😁
Schiff
Baltic Sea? Sry' But! Østersøen her.
@@dallesamllhals9161 bro we dont need swede
@@Fritzsche-ki6gv In Finnish it is too East sea or itämeri in Finnish. Maybe because of Finland's long history under Swedish rule.
im also Estonian
M/S Estonia was a messy story. Almost 850 Swedes drowned. I remember being 9 years old in 1994 waking up 7 in the morning to watch Disneymovies on Swedish TV just to be met by a board bulletin with text. Irritated i woke up my parents and told them a ship had sunk. They didnt believe me first but once they put on the TV it was clear. That day it was all about the accident and i remember how angry i was that there was no cartoons shown on the TV.
HMS 'Dreadnought' has to be one of the absolute most awesome sounding name ever. That name just demands respect.
In Estonia disaster there were some 12 unhappy coincidenses that together caused the sinking. Without any of them it would not have taken place. Design weaknesses were from the severe end: weakness of the visor locking was one and the lack of visibility (superstruckture blocked the view) from bridge to bow another. I travelled on Viking Sally during a heavy storm in 1988, enjoyed the view outside in front of the bridge, one deck down and remember wondering why the bridge was not in front end of the superstruckture but some 10m backwards. Senseless flaw, since on the accident the bridge personnel should have noticed the vizor problems in real time and not fatally too late.
I was 16 (almost 17) when the Estonia sank. Being a Finn, it hit home pretty hard. I had been on that ferry couple of different times, back when it was the Viking Sally and again when it was the Silja Star.
I was 14 and remember being in Turku university hospital dentist on the morning of Estonia disaster and while I was being tortured on the dentist chair I watched through the window helicopters landing one after the another bringing in survivors and a lots and lots of body bags. Helipad was about 100 meters from where I sat.
Rest in peace to all of the victims of Estonia.
I was 6 & was scared the all late 90:s when on cruise ships when it was windy conditions. I was also abboard in the Viking Sally when it hit the rocks & flued. Was it in 93 or 95? Anyway.
I am also a Finn, over a decade older than you and had also traveled in that ferry several times back when it had those other names. I have always had bit of a claustrophobia problem and never liked to sleep in those under the deck windowless cheap cabins, but that disaster made it worse because I kept imagining what it must have been like for all those people who had been in those cabins and never made it out. These days I don't take the ferries to Sweden or Estonia often, but when I do I either pay for a cabin near one of the exits to the deck, preferably near to where the lifeboats are, no matter what it does to my budget, or I don't take a cabin at all. Sure that sinking was equally as deadly to a lot of people who made it out of the ferry and then drowned, or died of hypothermia, in the cold sea, but I think I'd still prefer dying under an open sky to drowning trapped inside that kind of maze.
Ooo, finally see a ship i know, the S.S. Badger! Haven't seen her in ages, but she's still running services between west Michigan and Wisconsin.
I was on her a few years ago! Amazingly fun!
Down for service this winter due to some issues - With the lift gate if im not mistaken - at the end of last season, but should be back up and running in the spring hopefully. Even without riding on it - its fun to watch it come in and out of port
Estonia's sister ship, today named M/S Bluefort, is said to have almost suffered from the exact same fate with the bow door damaged in januari 1993. Almost two years ealier.
I read with the herald of free enterprise that it was made worse that they had not emptied the ballast tanks after loading the top car deck. Doing so would have meant the open door would have been higher, meaning in theory that even though the door was open, providing the sea was calm they would have been OK. As they hadn't emptied the ballast tanks that hole was a lot lower in the water.
Loved this video as always.
It baffles me, that the ships designers never thought about that.
You could easily make alarms scream without stop, disengage the engines, when the ramp is open, or even put water sensors into the ship, that automatically close and check the doors of the ferry.
As a software engineer, I am a bit out of words, that they have no idiot support build in what so ever...
Always, really always think about the most stupid stuff the user can do or happen randomly :D shit happens all the time and in that case, people die if it does... The ramp is open and the ship happily sails onto the ocean is one of the first, that comes to mind...
@dag1704 I mean yeah! Even something that told them of by the way the ballast tanks are full. I mean I know this was the 80s but even liners like the lusitania and titanic had automatic doors in the necessary areas.
Finally! I've always been hoping for you to make a video about the MS Estonia. This ship has always haunted my thoughts. I think this is way more tragic than Titanic ever was.
When I was doing my A-levels, the Estonia disaster had just happened and the Herald of Free Enterprise disaster was still relatively recent history.
My Design Technology teacher referred to ships of that design as "Roll on, Roll off, Roll over ferries"
The Estonia, she was indeed one of the most tragic sinking in these last couple of decades. Happy you mentioned her
Family members missed the "Herald Of Free Enterprise" by 20 minutes due to an - in first sight - unfortunate traffic jam on the way to Zeebrugge. We - at home - knew that they intended to be on that ship when the news from its capsizing came in. But fortunately we got a call that they missed the ship and were now standing in awe in the harbour with the rescue operations on the way. Sometimes bad luck turns into good luck ... Only sometimes.
I wasn't born when Estonia occurred but I quickly learned of the catastrophe since I live in Stockholm Sweden, many people here have some (at least distant) relation to someone who was onboard, including me.
As someone who has lived in the Pacific Northwest of the USA my entire life, the design of those Ro-Ro ferries is just so interesting to me! We have ferries that cross the Puget Sound multiple times per day, but they are completely different. They are totally open at both ends, because it's protected water. On the very rare occasion that intense winds cause larger than usual waves, they don't run.
Same for the car carrying ferries that operate between Manhattan and Staten Island. It’s not open ocean.
That's a thing confusing people: Ro-Ro Ships being called ferries because they take passengers. An actual ferry is like a Puget Sound type double-ended one.
Somebody claiming it's because of the open car-deck, then why aren't car-carriers called ferries having all decks open
Also, thank you Mike for bringing up Estonia. It was a horrible tragedy nad it's still very much remember in the Baltic region.
The problem with the Estonia wasn't fully the bow visor, one of the causes for the disaster was that the visor had allegedly not been maintained properly (together with a large part of the ship), nowdays ships don't usually have bow visors unless they were built before the mid 80s, ferries now typically use clam doors.
Another thing that you would usually find on other ferries is that on the car decks there are big walls/doors which close when the ship is at sea which divides parts of the car deck, however the Estonia didn't have these due to her being designed to operate close to the shore (mainly on the route Kapellskär-Mariehamn-Naantali) so it didn't have these.
As a conclusion, a lot was learned from the M/S Estonia and ferries (especially in the baltic sea) are now built to very high standards
I still remember the sinking of the Estonia, it was all over the news, papers, radio and tv. It was so incomprehensible that a ferry would sink in our modern times.
The Herald of Free Enterprise was actually departing Zeebrugge, not Dover.
Good point, also worth a mention that by pure luck it capsized on a sand bank.. Otherwise the death toll may have been even higher
finally the Estonia is brought up! another very famous sinking im shocked hasnt been covered yet even in more detail. great video as alway!
Very cool to see you cover the MS Estonia! I'm Estonian myself and for some of us here, it's basically our 'Titanic' (metaphorically).
How many people in Estonia do believe that the disaster did not happen in the way that official report says?
I think M/S Estonia should deserve it's own episode where the disaster could be analyzed minute by minute. Like Mike said, it's one of the worst peace time shipping disasters. Over 850+ people died.
You can find the radio conversations on CZcams, some shorter and at least one like two hours
The Herald of Free Enterprise is the first disaster I remember, I was six when it happened, and it made a great impression on me. I came across a Reader's Digest article about it when I was nine or so and the writing, and pictures, were pretty vivid to me - and we had been on ro-ros, so there was that tiny 'that could have been us' even though we'd never been on Herald nor travelled to Zeebrugge, using the Dover-Calais route to France instead.
My Granny's cousin died on the MV Princess Victoria. There was a creepy artists impression of it mid sinking in my Grandparents hallway for years. I used to stare at it for hours when i was a kid. Maybe thats why im so interested in ship disasters today. Pretty morbid huh?!
Herald of Free Enterprise was a member of a fleet of three ro-ro ships built for the Dover to Calais route - the other two were Spirit and Pride. I believe Herald held the "blue ribband" equivalent for the fastest channel crossing. I rode on her twice in the 1970s. She was not supposed to be on the Zeebrugge route as the linkspan at Zeebrugge was not designed to handle her. In order to unload cars from E deck the bow ballast tanks had to be flooded to lower the ship enough to connect the linkspan. When she departed Zeebrugge, as well as the doors not being closed, the tanks had not been emptied so she was sitting too low in the water. The failure to close the doors was a classic case of someone assuming someone else had done it but no-one did it and no-one checked it had actually been done.
Mad props to you for not giggling every time you had to say "roro" or "roro ferries." I chuckled when I heard you saying it.
I'm from Sweden and I remember the Estonia accident so well. In the town where I live there is a memorial plaque for the people who died. Here in Sweden there are still theories how this accident happened and that the official investigation doesn't tell the truth....
Something dodgy with the official narrative, if it was Russia responsible, then we would’ve known by now, but that they aren’t blaming Russia, then you have to ask what NATO hand played in this incident.
Despite only being seven years old at the time, I remember the Herald of Free Enterprise incident well. It dominated the news for about a week. Made me quite scared of ferries for a few years and I didn't go on one after that until 1992.
The Estonia documentary series on discovery is worth a watch. As suspected by a lot of locals and survivors, it seems there might be more to the sinking than the initial investigation concluded. To much to mention in a comment but worth watching if anyone is intrigued
There is 100% more to this than we’re being told. I’ve seen a few documentaries about it.
I belive Estonia was blown up by russia and then they went down and collected whatever was on board.. I also belive someone warned the Swedish goverment to never invastigate this to hard. Since they first said they would basicly pick up the ship and then suddenly changed their mind. Hell, maybe someone even told them exactly what happend and the truth never can leave that room.
There’s a great and horrifying article online in The Atlantic magazine that has eyewitness accounts of the Estonia sinking. Depending on what you believe, it may not be accurate regarding the cause of the sinking, but exactly what the cause was didn’t make much difference to the people who were there.
The documentary is great, definitely worth a watch. Interesting about the big hole that was found. It will be interesting what will be brought up when the new investigation is completed.
@@andyhouston69 I think you're right to a point. I don't think the ship was blown up, however it definitely hit something out there. Probably a Russian sub, there is a possibility it could've been another "friendly" sub. What we do know is that we won't find out properly what happened, and the visor will be the answer.
22:03 As someone who has been on a ferry, i can agree that ferries have became a lot safer due to engineering and development and are now adays, very safe. Great video as always, keep up the great work :)
Very tragic story with Estonia... Im very glad you mentioned this ship ❤️🩹
The Queen Mary and the splendid cats were armored against 12" guns at expected battle ranges. HMS Queen Mary was a victim of poor ammunition handling coupled with disabling of her anti-flash protection. Their main battery was 13.5" not 15"
Hood was as well protected as a Queen Elizebeth Class battleship. Here is how you tell the hit that sank her was a fluke. The IJN Kirishima was basically a splendid cat. Post war analysis showed she took 20 16" Mk 8 AP rounds and did not detonate. To put that in perspective, Bismarck's 15" rounds were about 1700lbs. The MK 8 was over 2700lbs. The primary damage mechanism of an AP round is shrapnel. The MK 8 was a massively more powerful round.
Someone's been watching Drachenifel, because I came to the it was a fluke opinion after his video on the subject. Would love to see a colab between Drach and Mike
Nice to see Estonia in this video. Probably for me the most touching incident as finnish person.
When you started talking about the roll on ferries I was already thinking of SS Princess Victoria. She sailed at that time to keep to British Rail times despite the terrible conditions. All survivors were the fittest men and no women or children survived. The Lifeboat that rescued the survivors still exists and is being preserved in a Carpark in Doughadee, Northern Ireland.
See my comment above. Profits before safety still goes on. For example our buses were sent out in blizzard conditions and I was nearly stranded. Luckily I made it back, but it was a dangerous journey and I was getting very cold by the time I reached my own car in order to drive home!
@@rob5944 It was the same with Estonia. And also with the Jan Heweliusz in 1993.
@@timothyjoksch crews not being given enough time to do their jobs properly?
@rob5944 running through whether the ship wasn't made for.
@@timothyjoksch ah, I see.
The bow structure of Estonias visor and ramp was practically a normal thing in all the baltic ferries before the accident. There are even photos of FIN-SWE ferries leaving port and driving long distances with both ends open in the archipelago to get all the exhaust gasses of :)
And if you look closer the Estonia had also another design failure. The bridge was so back, that because the forestructure, they could not see the front visor from the bridge, not even in a calm day.
There is a ton lot more about what comes to Estonia, it would be sufficient to many episodes, but I'm just glad that you did not take those more on frame in this video.
Main problem was the bow door was upward opening. Plus it was big empty volume. Meaning on sailing into a wave the doors own buoyancy tried to lift it open.
Only thing keeping it closed was lock bolts on lock shackle blocks and well eventually the metal fatigue of constantly being hammered open by the sea ripped the locks.
Estonias sister ship had same bow visor fail year before Estonia disaster. Only it was calmer storm so it only partially opened with one bolt still holding on while badly bent. It managed to limp back to harbor with cracked open visor.
After Estonia all these up opening bow visor door were welded shut as deadly flawed.
These days they use outward and sidewards sliding front doors recessed into the main Hull frame. Meaning as wave strikes the door it is pushed *closed* with even more force rather than being tried to be ripped open.
@@aritakalo8011 Ei tarvii opettaa äitiä naimaan, mutta muille tää info oli varmaan ihan hyvä. jos nyt löytävät sen kun on vastauksena mun kommenttiin eikä omana kommenttinaan
The ferry lines between Stockholm and Finland are mainly through archipelago, providing calmer waters than the route between Estonia and Sweden, so it was less of a problem. I believe the Estonia wasn't really designed for ocean sailing to begin with.
One major flaw in the Estonia's design was that her superstructure extended ahead of the bridge, so that it completely blocked its view of the bow. This is another reason why the crew didn't notice that the visor was coming loose.
Regarding the Herald of Free Enterprise, management didn't ignore the warnings and request for lights showing if the bow door was closed, they had dismissed the request all together. Per the wikipedia article, "Issues relating to the breaking of waves high on the bow doors while under way and requests to have an indicator installed on the bridge showing the position of the doors were dismissed; the former because of the attitude that ships' masters would come and "bang on the desk" if an issue was truly important, and the latter because it was thought frivolous to spend money on equipment to indicate if employees had failed to do their job correctly.[16]"
A little note on the battlecruisers:
Seydlitz suffered the hit described at 9:30 not at Jutland but a year prior in 1915 at Dogger Bank, though she does suffer similar hits in Jutland, the Germans for their credit investigated what happened after Dogger Bank and implemented anti-flash protections which would save their ships from the fates suffered by the British Battlecruisers.
Edit: Included Timestamp and fixed some spelling errors.
There's a monument for the estonia on Museum Island in Stockholm, in between the Vasa Museum and the Mariner's cemetery. It's just a triangle of grey stone that you walk into from either a staircase downwards or into from even ground (and then up out of). It's very quiet, very simple and incredibly somber. You just stand there, entirely alone, reading name after name after name, knowing that it's a full humam life cut short. I recommend taking a look if you're in the area.
Something else, the problems with the bow visor had occurred several times before on other ships, but it was never catastrophic and the shipping companies didn't really talk to each other about minor incidents. So there was a ton of hints that the design might have structural issues but it was so strewn out the crew of the estonia could never have known. It's frustrating and tragic. (I believe Beyond the Breakers made a double episode.)
Thank you for showing the S.S. Badger. I’ve been on that ferry before and hope to travel on her again this summer. I grew up near one side of her route in Wisconsin and often watched her head out on Lake Michigan on her way to Ludington.
I have traveled with Ms Estonia several times in my childhood in the 90s. Sailed once in a heavy storm between Vasa and Umeå in the Gulf of Bothnia when she was called Wasa King. Scary in retrospect.
We had our cabin forward in the ship and I could see the bow visor straight out our cabin window.
She was a really nice ferry for her time but terrible with everything that happened afterwards.
Loved the video, very well done. However; small mistake I found at 10:05. The thickness of the armor of the Invincible's barbettes is listed as 9 inches, the same thickness as the SMS Seydlitz's barbettes. Though, the centimeter and dialogue description are correct. just a minor typo on the inches.
Again, I love your videos and every you do, keep up the great work have a good day
I saw that same small tiny mistake, which btw did in ANY WAY take away from this amazing video
A missed opportunity to mention the further evolution of bow doors; gone is the upward swinging visor and in its place a 2 piece door arrangement that utilises the very force threatening to rip it open. Ask n to the design of a boradhead arrow tip; you have 2 halves/sides that come together to close and, much like how arch bridges get increased strength thanks to the keystone, the force of the water trying to get in, actually makes it harder, allowing it to take the types of pounding waves that, in days of yore, would've ripped the visor off and flooded the ship. A small point in the grand scale of this video but vital nonetheless. Keep up the cracking content
5:52 As some in a Discord server I was part of call her "the Stalker of the Atlantic", Olympic ALWAYS turns up near the ship or object in focus. I dunno how this happens, but it’s just too funny.
I was on board Estonia once as a kid when it was in port in Stockholm cause my sister worked for the company that owned Estonia. She personally knew a fair few of the bridge crew.
As a Finn living in Turku, I can still remember how my mother walked me to see the helicopters bringing victims of Estonia, which were landing at Hellpad next to our local hospital.
Helicopters look so cool, but afterward, I have understood how tragic and devastating it all was
I went on the Estonia about a year before she sank. I can’t believe it’s been 30 years already.
Just clicked on the video. But i know that its gonna be good. Its always a good day when mike uploads
Ah, the Herald of Free Enterprise. A sad tale which changed much of the cross channel ferry designs and operating procedures. The same design of ferry used to operate from Portsmouth to Cherbourg and Le Havre. Although the continental ferry port is close to the top of Portsmouth harbour, it was pretty normal to see the ferries leaving at the harbour mouth with their front doors still wide open. Oh, and one of these cross channel ferries was sold to a Middle Eastern operator who had similar problems: I still have memories of seeing it on its side, just south of the entrance to the Suez Canal. ☹️
Awesome video, Mike! Once again you provide very explicit details about ships nearly forgotten to history! Well done!
When that happened, I thought of the last car to board the previous ferry, the first car on that ship, the last one on that ship, and the first one on what would be the next ferry. And the people in those cars.
S.S. Badger-the oldest coal fired steam ship still in operation in North America. I think an episode on her would be great. I have ridden her from Wisconsin to Michigan, the kids and I on vacation, drove my truck on in WI, 4 hrs later drove it off in MI. When they pull into port in MI they have to do a 180, so they drop a anchor, it grabs and the tail of the ship swings around, they throw her into reverse, pull up the anchor and back right into the dock.
Hearing the mayday and subsequent radio communications between Estonia and other ships is Erie
From bad ship looks to Faulty designs thank you Mike
Learned of Estonia a few years ago, glad to know you allowed more ears to hear her story, Mike!!
I remember the loss of the Estonia well. Years later I’d command large RoRo’s and the lessons of the Estonia’s and the other RoRo losses were not lost on me.
About the Estonia's fate: before the actual accident, to more Baltic cruise had had issues with their bow vizors and gates. The first one was the Apollo, the second one was the Diana II. The latter was closely related to the Estonia, though smaller, and had those vizor lock issues in 1993 (!) The vizor, being big construction, cause tens of tons of buoyancy when submerged to a wave. Moreover, there are dynamic forces caused by the speed of the ship and waves hitting the bow section. To make things even more complex, the vizor itself is not perfectly watertight. Water inside the vizor, or between the vizor and the ramp, cause forces pushing the vizor open. While submerging, the internal water supports the vizor; while rising up from the waves, it increases a moment pushing the vizor open. Moreover, there are dynamic forces I can only imagine, caused by the ship movements and the water moving inside the vizor. All these forces stresses and relieves the vizor and front gate/ramp system thousands of times between Tallinn and Stockholm. And, during her final voyage, the vizor system failed. Moreover, the ship was not new. It was built the Viking Line and sailed as Viking Sally for about 10 years between Turku (Finland) and Tallinn since 1980. After Tku - Sthlm traffic she sailed a few years on other routes on the Baltic, facing far more severe sea conditions than the protected Tku - Sthlm route. I am not an expert on metallurgy, but how does metal fatigue affect? The locking bar of the Atlantic lock was 80 mm thick, going through 85 mm holes. The forces caused by the vizor were between zero and tens of meganewtons.
There were dozens of rumors about the reason for the vizor and bow ramp construction failing. Loose bolts, neglecting the maintenance etc. You know, the best experts are always found on the marina quays, leaning backwards, keeping their thumbs in their rear pockets (as I am doing right now). And while detailed information of the vizor, ramp and lock mechanisms is available, there ae still, 30 years later, different kinds of beach experts.
As a Swede, mentions of Estonia always gets me in a special, dour mood. In the collective consciousness of Swedes, it is seen as “our Titanic” of sorts.
12:55 It was revolutionary for *automobiles* only. Rolling carriages on ships has been used widely for railcars back in the early 1900s and even before. Like for instance the railcar ferries on the Great Lakes in the US. The Pere Marquette Line Ferries come to my mind, which operated from 1897 until its merger in 1947, operating 13 ferries by then. With some notable losses of course, because poor and violent weather conditions on the Great Lakes would not stand far behind that of "open sea" on oceans. You did show the "S. S. Badger" from 1952, which is the last coal-fired / piston engine powered Great Lake ferry. Its predecessors date way back to the end of the 19th century. Thanks for sharing !
Nice video.
It should be noted -- even though this doesn't neatly fit into the video's topic -- that there have been many questions raised about the Estonia disaster and how it was investigated. For example, survivor testimony that contradicted the official timeline was ignored. And divers dispatched to the site afterwards didn't recover bodies, but based on video evidence released much later seemed to be looking for an individual or documents. There were also interesting choices by some governments that could easily be construed as a coverup, such as the abandoned plan to encase the entire wreck in concrete.
As a result the Estonia disaster is an ideal target for conspiracy theories, some of which might even prove to be correct over time.
Estonia is one of my favourite ships in history (idk why) so I’m SO glad your talking about it!
Mine too, definitely not the prettiest or most interesting ships, it's more the story and tragedy that seemed to follow her until she sank, like two different murders on the ship some years before the sinking.
Wish we have full video of Estonia's disaster as it took per% more victims than the Titanic.
Greetings from Finland.
The loss of the three cruisers in the Battle of Jutland sadly was echoed decades later in the first years of WW2: The loss of the battlecruiser HMS Hood when engaged in combat with the Bismark and Prinz Eugen.
The continued evolution of RoRo ferries is interesting to see given the constant need to transport people and goods as efficiently as possible. Unfortunately speed took precedence in cases such as the Herald of Free Enterprise. Apparently because it was so shallow the squat effect was partly responsible in allowing water into the ship.
Another great episode, awesome channel 👌
That and the fact that she was trimmed by the head.
13:36 the _S.S. Badger_ still steams across Lake Michigan to this day, although she only carries automobiles now and not railcars. I took her from Manitowoc to Ludington at the age of 14; I should make it a point to do that again.
It was neat to see the "Badger" , a Lake Michigan ferry originally built to haul railroad cars from Mamitowoc, Wis, to Ludington, Mich. It now runs that route with passenger cars, semi trucks, and passengers. I rode that trip a few times, very nice!
Great vlog! Very interesting and well presented. Thanks for posting!
✌🏻👍🏻✌🏻
"There's something wrong with our bloody ships today." Characteristic British understatement!
The nearly destruction of Seydlitz occured at the battle of Doggerbank, back in 1915, Not at Jutland in 1916 ;)
Near destruction of Seydlitz was at both battles.
@@leeboy26 yes, but Wilhelm Heidkamps rescue of the ship was at Doggerbank
@miniadler but it could be argued she came closer at Jutland, barely limping into Port.
Great stuff as always, Mike. Thank you and your team for such wonderful and informative presentations.
A most awesome video! Great footage, really interesting. I love your passion and love for your subject, a pleasure to watch and listen. Thank you for your hard work and eye for detail. Looking forward to hearing and seeing more. ❤
Love the SS Badger drawing, I have many fond memories of family day trips on that ferry
We took the Badger across Lake Michigan a few years ago. It was great fun, but it satisfied any wisp of desire I had ever had for taking a cruise. The lake was calm, the sky clear, my mal de mer well in hand, but looking a just water for a couple hours....nope. Glad we did it, the coal fired old girl was great, bringing back pleasant memories of steam engines and locomotives.
It's so refreshing to hear actual human narration instead of a cursed robo-voice.
Oooh! This is my kind of video! I love hearing about how ship design improved over time due to disasters like these! New information for me to learn! Keep it up! 😁
When it came to the Battle Jutland, the fact that Beaty allowed cordite to be stored in the turrets without regard to safety played a major role in the loss of three British battle cruisers during the course of that battle. Beaty’s incompetence was further compounded by the fact that he also ordered the flash tight doors, which were vital for preventing flash fires from reaching the magazines, disabled in order to increase the rate of fire of his squadron.
“Ships are big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big they are. I mean, you may think it's a long way from the bow to the stern, but that's just peanuts to the size of ships.”
-Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, probably. 🤣
Estonia is an scar on the face of Scandinavia. Thank you for giving her place on this video and I hope you go more in depht on her sinking. This sinking I think was not as easy explained as this and our goverments has blood on there hands for not reising the ship up to envestigate furder…. Thank you again.
Estonia is merely a scar on the face of the shipbulder and even more the shipping company. Getting her raised is probably too late, even to get the victims properly buried.
A lighter point is that it would end discussion over these funny conspiracy theories and prove some know-alls not so clever
What an interesting video thank you Mike. Especially that you talked about the Estonia is fascinating to me so thank you for your wonderful work 😊
The “Badger” at 13:30…I’m guessing that is the ferry that crosses Lake Michigan?? I’ve not seen it in person, but while at the Milwaukee Model Train show, this modeler had an extremely impressive, detailed, and LARGE diorama featuring the Badger. The diorama included a ‘floating’ ferry that moved through the harbor and docked, opened its doors, and unloaded and loaded trains and maybe automobiles (if I remember correctly). The level of detail was so amazing that I sometimes forget I actually have not seen it live - although I have in a documentary or two…or three, now :)
If you live in Wisconsin, you should take a ride on Badger some time. They offer short cruises now, so you don't need to think up excuses to go all of the way to Ludington. Sunset cruises are particularly nice.
I just love your channel; It is interesting, educational & fun.
Your production is top notch.
Keep it up.
While Indefatigable was terribly armored (even for her design role), and Invicible was not built for the role she was in (she was built for actions like Von Spee's Last Stand), reminder, the newest German BC was lost to the guns of Invincible, There is also decent evidence that is was not direct magazine hits to Indefatigable or Queen Mary that put them down, but hits to the actual turrets, causing a chain reaction with the overstocked turrets that had their flash protection disabled, and were very likely covered with cordite dust internally. Also a reminder that had more RN shells actually properly worked (or were outright replaced with a 1916 equivalent of the "Greenboys"), more of the German BCs would not have made it home either. Tiger took an incredible beating at the battle, but possibly thanks to her Captain refusing to follow Beatty's practices to increase the rate fire, she came off looking similar to Warspite and the German BCs, as did Lion, which was saved by Major Harvey ensuring the (Q) turret's magazine was flooded after a shell shredded the aforementioned turret
Also, the British powder formula was more prone to exploding when set ablaze, whilst the German powder was less explody and more burny, giving Germans more time to contain the situation. Also, the Germans had a different design philosophy for their ships, focusing more on survivablity as opposed to firepower.
yeah the hits to QM and Indefatigable and Invincible were hits to the turret or barbet, and because with the Battlecruiser squadron being stationed in the Firth of Forth, it was difficult to practice long range fire, so instead they went for Rate of Fire, the theory being that, throw enough down range, eventually you'll find the range and pummel the enemy with a rapid cannonade, but the Rate of Fire required was in excess of what the ammo hoists could take, so extra ammo was stored where it shouldn't have been, Flash Doors were removed, and so forth. it was actually one of the reasons that 5th Battle Squadron was acting in support, because they had just rotated down, so were well practiced in Long Range Accurate Fire, they were fast Battleships (for the time) able to keep pace with the Battlecruisers, and in the considered unlikely event that they lose a couple of Battlecruisers, there would still be an overwhelming fire power advantage per Beaty's orders to bait the germans into following into the jaws of the Grand Fleet, but Beaty still managed to fluff that because several times was he requested information on enemy location, course and Speed (all of which he never gave Jellicoe) as a result of that, Jelicoe could have easily screwed up and positioned the grand fleet in such a way that the trap was a failure, as it was Jellicoe lucked out and mauled the Germans quite badly, so much so that while yes Britain suffered more losses, the Germans never sortied from Port again (the over all tactical goal for the British)
as one American newspaper put it later, the Prisoner has assaulted the Jailer....but is still in Jail
@@Rybo-Senpai You'll also note, around 11 minutes, a German battlecruiser beat to crap. But, it still made it home. This reflected exactly the German philosophy of survivability. A broken ship can be fixed a lot cheaper and quicker than building another.
Man, I love historical details.
Wonderful as always; great detail, fabulous drawings. A small slip here, the Herald of Free Enterprise was sailing from Zeebrugge to Dover, and came to rest outside Zeebrugge harbour.
Another interesting point I've heard about Estonia is that because the bridge was pushed a little backwards on the superstruture, there was no way for the crew on the bridge to actually see that the bow visor was loose
Yay the Badger!! Been on her many times, she is a great old ship on Lake Michigan
Another brilliant and well researched video, Mike. Thank you.
Very well done Mike
The fact that the early battlecruisers shown here is likely to do with the fact that the British valued production expense more than common sense.