Terrible Purpose: a Dune Deep Dive
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- čas přidán 5. 08. 2024
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Timestamps:
00:00 Terrible Purpose
01:00 Part 1: The Read
10:56 Part 2: Analysis (some spoilers)
19:28 HEAVY SPOILERS
23:27 Final Thoughts / Should YOU read Dune?
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make sure you stay for the end credit scene
NEW DISH CREATES UPLOAD LET'S GOOO 💖💖
as a crazy person who has neither read nor watched the movies i love the way you describe the books and it rly seems to be super thought provoking as well. I love stories that do it and do it well.
i can get why Toiken didn't like it but i'm pretty fine with it
love to see more from you and you're journey into hobbying
3:14 the cat got scared T^T oh noo
again, even from your previous book video, i LOVE the way you talk about books and describe them! can’t wait to watch more dish!💕
Ive been thinking about resding dune. This was great to understand the book to movie comparison
AND AUSTIN 😂 Great video! As someone who has only seen the movies and does not intend to read the books it was v interesting to hear how wild the differences are! Villeneuve's changes sound more grounded which I like. Tbh I kinda struggled with the coldness of Dune Part 2. It's weird to say but the only characters I was really rooting for were Chani and Gurney. It felt to me that everyone else either gave in to the allure of power or were manipulated to follow. I loved who the characters were in Part One and it's probably why I prefer it overall. My unease is probably the point though since it is very much a Hero's Journey: Cautionary Tale Edition story. Very interesting nonetheless!
what you said about how reading dune makes you feel thirsty is so true
SOOO SOO READY OMG
YAAAAAY I WAS SO EXCITED FOR THIS
The book has a weird structure in that it jumps ahead two years and suddenly the Fremen have taken over Arrakis. It skips the fun action scenes that the film incorporated by doing so. Then both the book and film rush towards an ending where the Sardaukar are quickly overwhelmed, which for myself diminishes the import of what is happening - the Sardaukar are losing for the first time in a VERY long time - and then you are in the Throne Room.
The book hints at what becomes very apparent in the later books - Herbert's storytelling was not always up to the task of communicating his ideas and themes, which were his greatest strength. The plot of Dune is intricate and multilayered, but the next books, not so much. He regained the last ones got really weird. And his characterization was probably the weakest part of his storytelling. The characters often feel like plot devices.
This all works in Dune itself, but becomes a very evident problem in the sequels. And it certainly wouldn't have worked well onscreen, which is why I'm wondering how the hell Villeneuve is going to adapt Dune Messiah.
Yay!!! I love dish reading :)))
The Intro tho😍😍😍
SEATED
I think one of the biggest reasons why there's such a divide among audience's response to Paul is because his archetype isn't nearly as familiar with in pop culture. Paul is not a hero, or villain or even anti-hero. Paul is a tragic hero, and that's a very different thing than most of the discourse surrounding the character and ultimately what Herbert is trying to communicate within his work. The whole "Paul is good guy vs. Paul is bad guy it just depends on your perspective" perspective misses the point.
Paul is very deliberately written as the Mary Sue of Mary Sues; he's raised from birth as a mentat, an order that represents all of the sacred aspects of the masculine. He's surrounded by alpha males who love and guide him. He's trained in the Bene Gesserit way by his mother, representing all the cunning power of the feminine. Paul's mother loves him and his father so much that she disobeys a sacred order of her own sisterhood. Paul is raised as a ducal heir and learned in the ways or war and politics. He then goes on to live among the most robust, resourceful and pragmatic people in all the imperium and eventually becomes their legitimate ruler after succeeding in all of their rituals and besting all comers. At this point the missionaria protectiva is moot, Paul has fulfilled all of the prophecies that no other person in the imperium ever could, he literally is That Guy and proves it. And that's all before becoming the goddamn Kwisatz Hadderach, the supreme being who can see in all places at once. The most capable human to ever live. And yet, even this supreme being is unfit to wield such monopolized power because no one is. The jihad is inevitable, violence sings its own song.
This understanding of power is demonstrated in all the surrounding characters and subplots. The Bene Gesserit have the hubris to think they can control humanity and even the Kwisatz if they just patiently plan in the shadows long enough, the Fremen think they are ready to fulfill their dream of the "green paradise" which they do, but at great destructive cost to themselves, and so on.
Herbert once stated that his favorite president was Richard Nixon as Nixon taught the American people to distrust presidents.
I fully understand the necessity to make Chani the voice of opposition when adapting this book into a movie. The book grants the reader access to the consciousness of its characters and through Paul’s consciousness, we experience his conflict with his ascent to power and the upcoming jihad, his attempts at stopping it until he realizes it’s much bigger than him and that he can’t. This kind of complex internalization simply isn’t the domain for cinema. Not fluid cinema anyway. So it’s necessary to bestow this conflict into an external source. And because the only character suitable to impose this upon is Chani, she’s the one who gets fundamentally changed. The movie version of Chani is a complete invention of the filmmakers and does not represent Herbert’s vision in any meaningful way. Again, while I understand that narrative necessity of this action, it comes with the tradeoff of erasing the original purpose of this character.
In the book, Chani is Paul’s internal peace. The two of them both lose their fathers to this campaign providing the opportunity for these characters to comfort each other. Chani understands Paul as an outworlder as her dad was also an outworlder and as her outworlder father was in a leadership role within the Fremen, she sees Paul being the rightful man to take that position. Chani and Paul’s relationship is born out of deep empathy in this way. Chani becomes Paul’s ride or die, she too wishes for the freedom of her people, she provides her lover with valued counsel during his times of crisis. She understands the politics of marriage as all Fremen women do.
The movie version of this character just has none of this. She’s little more than an avatar to voice Paul’s conflict and I consider this to be a substantial downgrade for her character. She’s vastly less interesting and complex and so is her relationship with her people and her lover.
When I hear people say that this adaptation is an improvement to the character, I really think those people don’t know what they’re talking about.
great thought, thank you
BOOK CONTENT🎉
Good thumbnail
I read that the author of Dune rectified Chani's character to be more opposed to the path Paul goes on after the reception of the first book and people thinking she too just followed Paul, so apparently has a big motivation switch in Dune Messiah; that the director of the films said he wanted to portray correctly from the get go instead! I have yet to read Dune messiah but that alone does make me want to pick up the second book to see if Chani is more like the film's depiction of the character!
Loved the review I was excited to hear your thoughts on it as I had recently finished dune before the release of part two!
Also reading Alia's character I was so worried the film was going to give Twilight Renesmee character issues so I like the way the film went instead😂
oh man, i guess i'd rather have fetus reverend mother considering the alternatives LOOOL
@@dishcreates exacltyyyy, I Know CG has improved since then but I think that character dynamic will still be so jarring to actually see it'd take you out of it 😂
I read Diune and second book but not fully. Paul when he became ''in charge'' was so annoying to me. As you said he treated his mother badly and she... a strong independent woman who people feared became weak like a shell of herself. Why? In a second book the way author showed women especially one person (Alia). It was weird and sexist too... One scene with Paul and her made me so uncomfortable i dropped that book and it made me not interested in movies. ... Tolkien was a wise man lol
Yeaaa Paul gets extemelt egotistical and his actions show it too. In a way he knows he’s not the “Lisan Al Gaib” but he’s still drunk on his own power
To each their own I guess. In a way that's almost the point of the book when Paul takes charge it isn't supposed to be seen as a good thing it's simply a natural consequence of the political and religious movements at play. Also when it comes to Jessica it's important to note that while Paul doesn't treat her very well after his first spice trip she is still a feared and respected figure by most if not all of the fremen. In my reading the purpose of his treatment towards his mother changing is supposed to represent his ascension beyond his mothers capabilities not saying its right that he does that but he is seeing things that no other bene gesserit is or ever has been capable of and I see his anger towards his mother as a translation of his realization that he was designed to be this way.
tsuki! 🤍
tsuki :3
Someone told me dune describes women really badly? like $exualised & doesn't treat them very well? is that true?
Not enough to make me want to stop reading. There are religious and political components that affect women’s roles, and Paul speaks poorly to his mother when he starts to have visions, but that’s specifically between Paul and Jessica.
Having read the first 3 books in the series and planning to complete the dune saga I haven't read anything that has turned me off of the books yet. There are women that are sexualized in the series but for the most part it's used as a tool to show the weakness of their male counterparts. Women are integral to the series through the bene gesserit and the multiple female characters that are no more sexualized than the men. Herbert definitely has a bit of an antiquated view of sex and gender but it's nothing egregious. if you are interested I would say definitely give dune a shot there is much more to the series than the small commentary that's provided on gender and sex.
I'm Muslim and dun disrespects islam religion so badly and shows it in awful way
Can I ask what specifically you found disrespectful? I’ve heard arguments both ways: that dune misuses Muslim imagery/ideology, or that dune does so intentionally to make an argument against cultural and religious appropriation and manipulation.