The most debated DCI finals ever
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- čas přidán 19. 08. 2023
- In this video I discuss the historic 1988 Madison Scouts, and why their championship is, to this day, the most debated championship in DCI history...
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Tags: #dci #drumcorps #bluedevils #scv #madisonscouts #drumcorpsinternational #marchingband #band #dcifinals - Hudba
I think the solution to slotting is letting me be the sole judge because I'll pick the best show every time (les stentors will become 50x world champions winning every caption)
heat wave on top.
HEAT WAVE ON TOPPPEH!! FULL ASS‼️‼️
As a member of SCV '88, I seem to recall that we figured we would be second place; but to BD not Madison. For those few seconds after the announcer read Blue Devils in third, I thought for sure that we had won. Wow. But looking back, if we were to place second, I'm glad it was Madison winning. Total class act, that corps. Such memories. Thanks for resurfacing 1988 and the work you put into this video. An emotional walk down memory lane for this old contra-bass player.
I was there in Suncoast and you guys OWNED the night brother I still listen to it.
SCV IS A CLASS ACT CORPS TOO! If I win the multi billion dollar lottery, I’m gonna pay off the Santa Clara Vanguard debts and finance your way back onto the field!
I think it was 1986 that the vanguard perform pictures at an exhibition. I thought the Vanguard had it down that year.. for 1st.
The year of the Vanguard and blue Devils tied for first everyone in the stands all around me Vanguard fans and blue Devils vans thought SCV want it, and I was shocked at the Tie! …
SCV has given much to DCI Memories with finesse and versatility and true drum corps fans miss you!
Did you march with Chris Lambrecht?
Scv got screwed. Madison had one number that lasted 7 minutes. Imo. Bd and scv had the best shows
i did not@@SaneTheBro
great video and a lot of very good insights of the year. as alumni of 88, I think there are a few other points of view to consider.
1. yes we got beat all season by almost every corps that summer and after getting 5th or 6th place at our home show (50th anniversary no less) many of us stopped caring about the scores. we knew we had an amazing show and had early aspirations that this might be very competitive, but after that, we put those thoughts behind us and just focused on playing for the crowd. later in the season, the boo birds came out early, and often when we weren't winning shows and many alumni (from quite a few corps) pulled us aside after shows to tell us how this was the best Madison show ever. As by the last two weeks of the season eventually, the blue devils stopped playing encores and let us play them because it was getting embarrassing with how much the crowd disliked the scores and results
2. our Europe tour actually gave us the edge that summer. we were treated like gods (or the Beatles) and we had huge crowds everywhere we went. we really leaned into performing for the crowd cleaned up and changed our show in private and when we got back to the States we didn't care that we weren't winning because we just had the most amazing Europe tour and nobody else could even imagine what that was like
3. I think most people know that our semi's show was amazing and that night we went on in the bottom 7 corps right before they had a 15 min commercial break for the top 5. my future wife was in blue devils and says we iced them when they watched us march on the field with our company front. she points out that we had more applause before we even stepped off the starting line then they ever had at any show that year. all summer long they had been told they were going to win, but that was the first time they had actually seen us and that was when she understood why the crowd booed them
4. semis was an amazing night, and the show flowed so well it was effortless. finals wasn't our best show (lots of mental errors, but the impact points were still amazing) but looking back I think we were performing at a high level and were on fire once we got back from Europe. the main thing I remember about that summer was that we started to count how many standing ovations we had each night and were pushing for more every time we performed. we knew the spots the crowd loved and really leaned into it and by the time we started Malaguena it was all over. To me that was the best part in marching with Madison, everyone else was trying to get a ring and all we wanted to do is get the crowd on their feet. such a great summer and I still feel lucky to been a part of it
Paul, I was Shawn Owens' mirror in 1982 and was living in Chicago in 1988. My future wife, Caroline, never marched, but I "dated" a BD guard member during tour. 😉 I think it was the Sunday after DOP that Caroline and I, in the spur of the moment, decided to go to Great America for the day. When I pulled into the parking lot I thought I saw the Scouts truck, but it didn't make sense...until it did. You guys were there for a performance and an off day.
It hadn't seen any corps in '88 and when you guys started playing it was chilling. Holy shit, they're good! When the mellow soloist hit his first note in Maleguena, I was stunned at the confidence he displayed and the sound quality. I played alongside some Madison legends, but this kid was the embodiment of a Madison Scout soloist. Not knowing anything about what was happening on the field and with scores, I heard a music performance that rivaled the best I ever heard since I started in the activity in 1975. The win makes sense to me!
In conversations with Scoot years later he remembered the '88 season just as you eloquently described here. There's more to my story about the 1988 Madison Scouts and a marching band in Indonesia, but that's for another day!
@@ReddingRedthis is a great reminder of that great America gig. I had totally forgotten about that. I'm glad to hear your memories line up with mine. It was a magical summer. Would love to hear your Madison stories. The groups you played with are my students soprano solo favorites
Paul I saw you in Morgantown, WV in 1988. I think it was your first show back from Europe. You lost that night to Garfield, but the crowd booed! I was there with my sister and Madison won our hearts that night. When you played "You'll Never Walk Alone" and passed in front of Garfield, we cried. My sister still wells up with tears when we remember that night. We were not surprised to hear you won finals that season, we knew.
I've seen many shows since then, but not a more memorable moment.
I'm a bowler and I can really relate to what you say about forgetting the ring and getting people out of their seats. When I threw my first 300 everybody in the bowling center was suddenly my best bud and insanely happy. I have the ring but it just gathers dust. What I remember is how people were so happy. I've had two more 300's and I wish I could do it again just to see everybody insanely happy. I will never forget that Scouts show in 1988 (of course I bought the DVD). I still get shivers over it.
Thanks for the memories, Paul. I remember things exactly as you said (including being treated like rock stars in Europe.) From the field, it was clear at semis that we had done well. But finals? We worked that crowd into a frenzy(!) even with a less than perfect performance. There has been nothing in life to match the experience of that night. 1st place, 3rd place, I wouldn't have cared. We peaked at the perfect time, having had a great summer, and the crowd loved us. I'm eternally grateful to have been a part of it.
-Daniel Pfeiffer, Color Guard
Man, back in the day those corps look so mature and massive. Plus the sound.... oh my goshh
The way members carried themselves was much different at that time (no bumping and grinding) which makes the marching look more mature and “serious”, and those G bugles put out some SOUND!!
there was pride in the unis and how you carried yourself in DCI even 20 years ago.
when i marched in the early 2000s, we had rules specific to the uniform:
1. no profanity whatsoever.
2. no talking to anyone except staff or your corps mates.
3. no breaking ranks (i.e. don’t let anyone walk between yourself and a corpsmate in the lot or whatever).
4. keep a “corps like” demeanor. no horsing around smiling/joking laughing even if on break, you are no longer an individual but a part of your corps.
Of course, much of this still applies these days, but the activity being further removed from its paramilitary roots is evident. Not right or wrong, as long as young people are getting out there, putting in the work and putting on shows, this activity matters.
Emotion is why they won it all. No one else put that emotion into their show that night.
Emotion was not enough for Madison in 1995 where it did probably the most dynamic DCI performance ever.
As noted elsewhere, Madison’s trip to Europe, while interesting to the members and DCI, put them behind schedule in regular competition and practice time. Their show naturally peaked when it mattered.
I saw them in Europe.
Chris Jacobs came over to work with our Corp the next year.
We won.
It didn't put us behind in practice time. Yes, we had more free time in Europe, but the distances we travelled between destinations were very short. West Germany (as it was at the time), the UK (we only did England) and particularily the Netherlands are not very big countries. We had plenty of rehearsal time. I think what did us good was the treatment we got over there. It was insanity. I mean crazy as Paul said above. Amazing.
@@totesgene Europe was also a relief the very hot, dry weather of 1988. Two weeks of 60°s and 70°s, then back to the high 90's. Those first couple of days back were rough until we reacclimated, plus jetlag.
OK - I was there for this show. Scouts raised the roof in both finals and (especially) prelims. Won prelims by 1.2 points over BD and finals by 0.2. Judging by the crowd reaction and comments of those around me the audience agreed with the Scouts win. So did I. And I don't think the odd judging system in 1988 (with 60 points for GE topped by SCV) gave the Scouts the win. They were just strong in every caption and won with that balance. FWIW, Madison traveled to Europe that summer and had some catching up to do when they got back.
I was there also and I actually thought that the Scouts should win by an even wider margin because of the excitement of their show.Everyone was going crazy over that show. I did not think that the Blue Devils show had the energy or the clean sound that they had shown us earlier in the year. When it came down to it I figured that the judges would not let the Blue Devils lose and if they did let them lose, it would be to Santa Clara. SCV would begin to show us what we saw in 1989 . That show was just jaw dropping.
Never mind the fact that VK (8th place that year) almost beat Madison the week before finals.
"Catching up"? I'll say. Madison wasn't even in the top 5 going into finals week. Just........how?!
Wrong, SDS...
8/13/88
SCV 94.3
Star 94.3
Madison 93.9
Garfield 93.8
BD 93.5
Phantom 93.3
@@VK4eva what show was that? BD was undefeated that year!
The last shows right before finals week started on the 14th.
And BD was defeated at both Semis and Finals.
Watching finals in ‘88, I thought that Cavies, BD and SCV all had great shows, but the only show that left me gasping for more was that wall of sound from Madison!
I was there on the night. Devils & Vanguard were good but the Madison Scouts each and every one of them peaked on the field that night. It was the show everyone in my Corps was talking about ( and we had just been housed with Blue Devils, we all thought they had it when we were on the way to KC), Madison Scouts seemed to channel 50 years of Brotherhood onto the field at night it was absolutely Electric!
Interesting post. Current niece marching asked me about this post. (Marched Old Skool DCI) And to be transparent, as a member of a now defunct male drum corps, we were old Scout rivals and were pulling for SCV. "Slotting" always had an emotional effect on both the corps and the audience. Daylight and dusk play a huge part in the energy of a night show under lights. That said, a few of us were at this show and the execution and GE delivered by Madison during semis lit up the entire event and put the entire top 5 corps on edge. Scouts semis execution was precise and surprising with what we were led to believe were some updated closer formations added during week before semis, but the roof truly came off during finals. Finals was a hair less precise, but so desperately and aggressively raw, they wrecked the stadium. So IMO, the score stands as valid. The Scout GE could probably have been scored even higher. It is hard to describe the difference of the sound of bugles in an open stadium vs. a trumpets in a sound deadened finals dome. Technically, scientifically, and sonically, it was easier to deliver sheer blunt force of musical drama with a uniform Brass ensemble comprised of bugles. That plus the determination of the Scouts to deliver competitive pain was undeniable. Even those of us pulling for SCV friends all agreed, Madison wrecked the room.
I do think slotting has a lot to do with scores, in general.
As a former visual judge (DCM - 2003), it is by nature of the scoring system itself that judges are taught to "leave room" in their numbers for later performances so that you don't run out of "numbers real estate" before the end of the night and have to start scoring people out to hundredths of a point to distinguish them. And, this is a real problem when you judge shows with 20-30 units at them because, from my experience, you only use 60 of the 100 points int he system to begin with to "not hurt feelings" (at least this is what I was told when I trial judged).
A really good judge will, in my opinion, use the first up corps as their "starting point" and then comparatively relate all other corps to that performance -- meaning all corps may score lower or higher in a night if that first performance is bad/good.
Since the score system is meant to compare corps to each other on any given *night* (NOT to be used as a comparison of performances over multiple shows, like it seems to have become), I think this is why people get surprised when your top corps don't win their caption awards and other weird anomalies when you have close overall score groupings in a season.
I think the publishing of scores nightly honestly puts judges in a bad position of having to "explain themselves" even if a corps goes down from prelims to semis, or semis to finals, and makes it look like to the crowd that the judge was playing favorites... when they may have just in fact been doing their job... maybe the corps didn't have a good run that night and deserved a lower score. During the season, not so much (although scores always tend to float up as the season progresses -- in many cases rightfully so, due to cleaning, show changes, etc. made since the previous performance).
I think that some combination of slot draws with the current scoring system would give you a true view of who deserves the championship, and who might just be coasting into finals week with high scores (therefore, getting higher starting draws) because they didn't have tremendous amounts of competition during the season.
Since scores are supposed to be Comparisions to other corps on any given night during the season, a deservedly (finalist) 4th place corps overall could come out of the gate with insane number spreads over their competition, if they were only playing at shows with smaller, less developed corps. If they continue to do that most of the season, that would potentially give them a later placement during finals week, and therefore, a potentially more favorable chance to score higher (for reasons sighted above) than a championship corps who had tough competition all season and whose scores might be depressed overall as a result.
Last, for being at championship this week, kudos to the judges who gave the Cavaliers 1's on their percussion line -- they deserved it, but the judges for those three nights need a pat on the back for not overlooking them. 8th place finish overall, 1st place percussion every night. I know they had been first at other shows during the season, also, but to give them 1's across the board during championship week when you know the top 3 were putting the bug in the judges' ears, trying to pickup those extra fractions of a point to best the next guy was hugely bold and a good example of great judges -- where they were not judging based upon position, they were actually judging each corps performance to each other's that night.
Now, if only we could get the rest of the panel to judge like that, I would then flip my position to "draw doesn't matter". But, until then...
That's a stupid way to do scoring. The score should only reflect the Corp's execution of their show, not how it compares to any other performances. They should be able to look at their scores over an entire season and only see when they did better or worse compared to themselves, not their competition. Using other groups' performances to generate a score doesn't help that group in any meaningful way.
Madison was celebrating their 50th anniversary in '88. The Scouts were undefeated before going to Europe, where they met every corps in Britain, Holland, and Germany. When they returned, they were tired & took some time to get back into the groove. That was my first time at Finals, and Madison's performance was magical, and when the Scouts did the spin on Maleguena, I said, "If that doesn't win it, nothing will." It has been argued that 1988 was one of two years that the audience pulled a corps to the title, and that '88 crowd was as electric as the corps' performance, and it was pulling hard for Madison to win. (The other one where the audience was said to have pulled a corps to the title was Phantom Regiment's Sparticus in 2008.)
We got beat by everyone 1st tour😅
@@pbailey68 Before going to Europe, the corps did 5 shows & won them all: June 11 at Menasha, 12th at Janesville, 17th at Whitewater, 18th at Rockford, 19th at Normal. (Normal was a tie with Phantom, but for 1st ahead of Star, Cavaliers, Bluecoats, etc,.)
As it should be!!!! 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍🎶🎶🎶🎶🍷🍷🍷🍷
Well-done analysis from a DCI era we'll never see or hear again. Madison '88 led to another unforgettable show from SCV '89 at the same venue. After that it was just Star, Cavaliers, Cadets, 'Coats, props and amplification.
So cool to see a well put together video talking about drum corps history. I've taken an interest in it myself, especially with the horns themselves. Its nice to see something discussing it that isn't an ancient article or an inactive website.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I marched snare in Madison that year so I’m biased; still, we started peaking and gradually catching up before finals week (ex: SCV beat us by 0.4 the week before). Remember seeing BD in July and couldn’t believe how tight they were (already in July). Also we beat both corps by over a point in prelims so we would’ve played last sans the blind draw.
Wow! Awesome to see an alumni of that show watch the video! I hope I was able to capture the end of the season properly!
I loved the '88 Championships. Loved how Scouts had so many participants in the I&E championships, and how you marched in the midweek parade in KC. IIRC, Scouts were the only top-12 corps to march in that parade. Thank you!
@@CJsMusicTrumpetYep, agreed with all of it except for maybe some of the scores evaluation stuff. Yep, we took 4th at DCM but could feel us getting a lot cleaner and the late July/early August scores reflected it (we were catching up).
@aubywankenobi I remember talking to guys who marched '88 and all of them mentioning having a bit of transition to their stamina after being in the cooler European weather for a couple weeks. I know '88 was a HOT summer here in the States and it struck me that perhaps you guys were a bit behind on the physical demands of the show after in cooler climate and coming back to a heat wave. I'm sure it only took a couple more weeks to get your "sea legs" back but by this time it would have been early July. Guys made it sound like it played a part in being behind score-wise (due to performance stamina) a bit upon your return from across the pond. Curious as to your thoughts.
@@justgoodolme2398 I was 17 and the battery’s only rookie so was mainly dialed into playing clean (and that’s about it). Don’t remember weather ever being talked about playing-wise, just about how it constantly rained in Europe; still, again I was a rookie so any conversations were well above my paygrade. Primarily my ears clearly started noticing a big difference around mid to late July in what it was supposed to sound like.
Thank you for doing this video. I was there sitting in the stands in KC for that announcement of scores. As an avid Scouts fan (and a person old enough to remember when DCI was still DCI), I was beyond thrilled by the result. I went to all 20 finals between 1984 and 2003 and this was my favorite drum corps memory.
@@thatboguspade Bands of America has spent the last 20 years coopting what used to be DCI. The takeover is now complete. DCI is now a brand name only - and a dying one at that.
This is a show that has lived in my head since I saw it on my local PBS station on Thanksgiving 1988. It still brings me near tears and a racing pulse. You guys were like WILD FIRE!
I want to thank you for your work in these videos. As someone who is in and out in terms of viewing Drum Corps these days, I love the idea of having someone like you bring so much to light. I am one of the ‘old timers’ . My only marching experience was one season in Senior Corps; but I had been around Drum Corps since the sixties. Yup, my age is showing here. Anyway , my love of Drum Corps has never faded. I haven’t embraced every change I have seen on that field over the years; but I have kept an open mind, and marvel at the enormous creative talent in design and execution.
Nicely done, CJ!! I like your content and channel. Thank you from a former 6 year soprano drum corps vet.
Thanks for this content!!! Drum corps history is so fascinating to me.
Love this 🙏 however many of these vids you wanna make I will watch them all ❤️
Enjoyed the video. I was a Cavalier contra that year. A very crazy season. Lots of great memories.
Maleguena was then and always will be an evocative piece. Even now, decades later it still gives me the chills!
Whaaa! Singularly, Madison's Malaguena performance was so excellent that it was off-the-charts & exemplified the meaning of excellence. Madison Won. Period. End of story. No more tears.
I was in the stands for the ‘88 semis and finals. Madison was clearly the emotional powerful corps. I was so happy to see them win that night. I’d always heard the Euro tour helped them, but your research here was also insightful. Thanks.
I don't think the European tour helped or hurt us. It was certainly a lot of fun and we were treated like rock stars. It was exciting. Thanks for your kind words.
I've never heard that much debate about 88. I was there and the Scouts were scary clean and extremely powerful. There is another year that comes up for debate over and over again. That's 1993. Cadets beat Star by a single tenth. Star's show was boundary pushing and not particularly well received by audience members for most of the year. Cadets show had huge demand, but they had a few glaring issues on finals night. To this day I think Star should have won.
Agree. I am a huge Cadets fan and I loved their 93 show, but to this day I say Star of Indiana should have won. The last minute and a half of the Cadets show was a run-on sentence and not very clean. It did rain that night so I know that caused issues, but Star's show was more to the point, precise, and ground breaking. The Cadets show from the intro to about 8.5 minutes in is a serious championship show for sure. I still love both shows, but yes give that title to Star.
"Scary clean"? I can't be the only one that hears the really bad soprano fracks in the opener.
Yeah star winning in 93 is probably my biggest drum corps what if because if they win, I have a hard time believing they leave DCI as a whole right afterwards, so they stick around and that leads to a massive ripple effect that leads to a drum corps universe that is probably quite different than today.
@@nathanclaflin4352Honestly, I’m intrigued how Star of Indiana would’ve been like if they continued as a drum corps into present day.
@@nathanclaflin4352 I was upset when Star left. I enjoyed what they did with Brass Theater and Blast!, but those are temporary things. I wanted them to come back and they did not. Very disappointing. One thing I have heard and read is that many feel they made the decision to leave after the 1992 season. So when 1993 began no matter how they did they were gone. Who knows what is true? But it still bothers me that they are not a drum corps.
I marched that year in the UK and we were at the same show in Holland. When we saw them, we said “They’re winning this year”
Flawless playing, flawless drill and That Move at the end? It was over…
That was such an amazing trip and memory. My first time in Europe. We were treated so amazingly well.
I always thought that the trip to Europe made Madison's show fresher to the judges compared to the shows they judged every week in the US. That might have been the edge they needed.I can remember back in '75 people saying drum corps had "peaked" and no corps would ever be better than Madison's '75 show. 1988 Madison Scouts put an end to the drum corps had peaked in '75 crowd. It was an incredible show for the ages.
I also was there that week - and judged every show - from the press box. (I was there doing my trial judging for DCI.) The slotting issue might be something SOME judges may have a problem with. But, the judging panel for finals was outstanding and each one of them was very experienced and well qualified. They all knew about the potential problems that could be created with the draw - but had all judged each of the groups before that night. What impressed me (and still does today) is when a judge recognizes "the performance of the night" and rewards it. That clearly happened on finals night. Madison was electric! (SCV was right behind them!) Yes, I had the same top three that night!
What an excellent video , explanation of all the factors, and ultimately, JUSTIFICATION for what actually happened. THANK YOU FOR YOUR WORK.
What happened was Addison played with raw passion and sweat and it was not just mechanical technique. I long for that sound to return to the field with such broad and raw display which defines PERFORMANCE!
BD in 88 was pure class. Probably my favorite BD show of all time. I typically don’t get too ruffled about a particular placement, I’m just thankful for the amazing shows and moments over the years.
It was interesting learning about the scoring changes and what went down that season, thanks for the info!
Dude. This is so sick…great video
I need more!
already in the process of the next one!
Madison peaked at the perfect time on Friday AND Saturday. Its rare now because most champions are a foregone conclusion a week before Finals.
also MOST CORPS NOW DAYS have been practiced to death ...errors in the top levels are "programmed" out of the kids .Muscle memory etc .BECAUSE of this it IS or at least would seem to be MORE DIFFICULT to go out guns blazin' every night. SOME nights the show is on auto pilot usually 2/3 of the way through the season THEN ,HOPEFULLY ,THE FIRE RE-IGNITES but i think down shows happen for the simple reason that its difficult to be ON when the excitement or potential for error is rehearsed out of you.
Please make more videos like this. I love video essays and drum corp.
The Scouts gained a strong undeniable reaction to what became a song that became a part of the drum corp lexicon and set that later half going into finals on FIRE!!!... MALAGUENA!!!
that song had been in drum corps many years before Scouts made it their own. The point is , I think that ... SCOUTS MADE IT THEIR OWN.
Yo this video was sick, I would love to see this series more.
I was in KC that year. That Madison show, that night, was amazing! The Judges got it right!
I was there at Arrowhead Stadium in the upper deck all 3 nights in 1988. Madison deserved to win because they drove the crowd nuts and to their feet at every performance weather it was prelims, semifinals or finals. My own personal favorite was the cavies for personal reasons. But as Steve Rondenero always said, "this stadium is electric tonight" and it definitely was all because of the music we heard, visions we saw, and the way we felt after the performances all 3 of those nights back in 88. Memories that I will treasure my entire life. Just like it was yesterday.
Thanks for the kind words. I marched Madison '88. I agree with you about Cavaliers. THAT to me, was the best designed show of the season. I did not appreciate it during the season and thought it was boring. However, today it is one of my all time favorite shows and was just a miracle of design, which made it entirely thrilling and entertaining. I had simliar feels about Regiment '88 (after being such a fan of the '87 show, '88 was a let down for me at the time). Today, it's my 2nd favorite show of '88.
I fw this type of content. Hope to see more from you.
You will!
Was at semifinals and finals, Scouts went to another level that night. Blue Devils brass let them down and the phantom of the opera wouldn’t be ready for 1st until the next year.
Yes please! More content about the history of drum corps! This is exactly the kind of content that is lacking in this community!
Just wanted to say I am loving your videos! I was in the Sky Ryders (check your spelling in the video) in ‘86 and ‘88. We marched with BD and Madison quite a bit. On the one hand, many of us talked about BD’s amazing brass sound-something I don’t remember hearing before ‘88. On the other hand, Madison’s show was just electric. While I am constantly amazed at the level of performance of corps in the current era, I miss the days when we actually played at least most of a song.
Excellent video and analysis! Thank you! I'm impressed with how well you captured the moment even though you weren't there, at least I assume you weren't there based on the fact that you don't look like you're 35+ years old. 😀 I was there, and loved the blind draw format. It added a lot of intrigue and excitement to finals night. I'd vote for doing this every year. RE: 1988, I loved each of the top 3 shows. This was definitely my favorite Devils show ever. Vanguard's 1988 Phantom design was better than 1989 IMO, though they were a machine in 1989. And I actually like Scouts first half (Concerto for Guitar and Jazz Orchestra) even better than Malagueña. That said, I too thought there was more dirt in Scouts' finals performance. For me, first was a toss-up between SCV and Devils. I have a hard time feeling bad for Devils, though. I think they greatly benefited from hype and momentum a good handful of their gold medal years, though I have no reservation in saying they're the greatest drum corps of all time.
Thank you it means alot! Yeah I just aged out, but I want to put some videos that are actually of quality. There are some channels that do ok, but react content is not the only way to do drum corps content. I just wish Flo would do something like this to make paying them out the wazoo actually worth it. But you know what they say if you want something to be done right you have to do it yourself.
A couple fond memories: my best friend in VK’s snareline before the finale said “you won drums last night. I know for a fact. Also hearing you won”. Didn’t believe him. And later a BD snare buddy told me “give me the ring you stole”.
I was there to see finals live that year and I thought Madison deserved the win. That show was outstanding!
This was my favorite DCI finals ever! It was so much fun not knowing the results from semis. If the slotting idea is true, doesn’t that mean it is still happening today? The 12th place corps rarely, if ever jumps to 11. And you will never see them jump to 7 th. So in a way, slotting continues today.
Wonderful discussion. First off, I don't think any ONE individual can ever say the results of a contest relying on human opinion was wrong, or right. DCI uses multiple caption judges for a reason. If you have the expertise, you could question a given caption, but even then it is your opinion against another. The point is, DCI results are an opinion, not a concrete entity. That said, having our own favorites and opinions about the results is wonderful fun. I for one, agree with the narrator that Madison won the show. As a side note, would love to see you analyze why Star of Indiana left DCI. You may find some similar themes.
Was there for prelims, semis and finals. Finals on the 40 yard line about 20 rows up. Madison’s semi final was one of the cleanest I’ve ever witnessed live. Finals wasn’t quite as clean, but that show was so packed with GE. Malagueña is a hall of fame piece of music and no one plays it like the scouts. The crowd was on their feet twice during the show including as soon as they inverted into the wedge all the way to the end of the show. I’ve never had that feeling in the stands that was there that night and when Vanguard was announced in 2nd, the stadium exploded. People screamed so loudly when Madison was announced as Champions I couldn’t hear anything except the sound. Arrowhead is know as a loud stadium because of the way it’s built, but it was crazy that night. I had no doubt they won (been an adjudicator of band and marching band for over 20 years and a music teacher for over 30). It was an incredible night.
People that like to bring up BD beating Madison all year never bring up that there was nearly a 3 week gap between the last time BD beat Madison before semis. You can also look at the show leading up to semis where SCV was consistently beating Madison the gap kept shrinking until it was down to .4. When you actually look at scoring trends for the year Madison really didn’t come out of nowhere to win the title. They were just peaking at the right time.
Anyone that says 88 is proof of slotting determines results based off of the top 5 forgets that the bottom 7 went on in random order as well with the only difference in placement from semis and finals is that a tie in semis, VK and Spirit, was broken with VK beating Spirit by 1.3 despite being the first show for the evening and Spirit going on three shows later.
I was there that night! Madison blew the place up! 6 years marching DCI, '88 age out, and it was the most powerful performance I have ever seen. It's funny if you happen to peruse Reddit Drum Corps threads and you mention slotting you get run out of a thread by the youngsters pretty quickly! Great video!
This was my age-out year w/ Freelancers. I loved the shows of the top 3 corps and had all season. I was in the stands for the Finals and while the first half of the Madison show was clean it felt very low in GE... but the second half of the show... well that's my favorite show, EVER. I was on the 50 yard line for the victory performance. That was the loudest horn line I've ever heard. And let me be clear... it wasn't just the volume. They weren't overblowing and distorting and the balance top to bottom was amazing. BEST. SHOW. EVER.
I love drum corp but never had a way to know it’s history. This is excellent.
I was there that night, in the nosebleed seats. Damn Arrowhead is tall! And it's a great venue for drum corps, IMO. And it was a great night of performances all around.
I may have commented here long ago, but I think I ended up not posting it because, well, it was 1988 finals, after all lol.
DCI was hyping up Madison's 50th anniversary from the beginning of the season and throughout. REALLY. BIG.
I followed the midwest corps throughout the season, because a friend's brother performed in one of them, so I saw all of them many times, and Madison had been consistently behind and not particularly impressive.
I also subscribed to DCI's publication, which had been setting up the finals' result throughout the second half of the season. And BD's show "wasn't likely to hold up by season's end." What?
And a friend who was training to be a judge, but who wasn't one yet, was echoing the publication long before finals week. Again, what?
And you played the interview that claimed anyone could win this year.
So, yeah, this is why I didn't comment before lol.
The draw didn't affect the final result. The judges had seen all of the corps all season long, and a blind draw wasn't going to make any difference. After all, several BOA champions have performed 1st out of 12. And many ISSMA state champions have performed 1st out of 10.
The blind draw and lack of typical transparency of the placements was the set up. Even Rondo and Cesario, who at the beginning claimed to have no idea what the results were entering finals, at the end unwittingly said Madison had been the favorite coming in.
Was the fix in? Sure seemed like it. People seemed to think so. I know all of the other midwest corps thought so. And it was pretty amazing how Madison improved so much so quickly to have caught up at the end like they did. That kind of improvement was unheard of.
Whether or not the fix was in, I can't say, but the season played out exactly like the DCI publication "predicted" it would.
Now, that's not to say Madison wasn't the best that night. But they certainly had the ideal draw, and with fans not knowing the results going in, such a draw could've been set up to try to give them a boost.
Again, I'm not saying Madison wasn't great that night. I'm just putting together pieces of a puzzle that DCI laid out all season through discreet details.
No, I didn't think Madison was best that night, but they did generate a lot of excitement.
I thought SCV was nice, but lacked the maturity the we tend to see in championship performances.
I did think BD was best that night. But I also concur that their show was weaker than typical BD shows of the past. Not their performance, but the show design. Their brass was awesome, one of my favorite "sounds" ever, arranged differently than previous years.
Was Madison set up to win? Yes I do believe everything that was done, was done to discreetly put them in a situation to win. But I also think that, despite the set up, it was still up to Madison to take advantage of the situation and deliver, and they did that. I congratulate them.
Clearly the best show performance that might. Madison attained a whole other level and ascended to the top.
No controversy at all. Madison won Semis by a comfortable margin and was one of only two scores that scored lower in finals than Semis.
I have been involved in DC as a member. As an instructor and an avid follower for 70 years. Until we have a random drawing placing will always be suspect. I know the show promoters want a steady progress in quality to keep the audience. However, the present method keeps the same corps on top year after year. It also ensures member recruiting to be skewed. In 2023 BD went on last or 2nd last (unless it was corps show) at almost every show. Their scores were baked into the minds of judges. That started at the show in Broken Bow, Oklahoma.
That 2 point difference at Broken Bow showed no one else had a chance. In fact, that 2 point difference really stated where was SCV?
I aged out from Cavaliers that night. It was my fifth and last year marching DCI. I am proud to have marched what is probably the last night Madison was crowned champion. I do believe Santa Clara also was a champion that year. They won the next year. I'm glad I was there that night.
Wow, that's a very in depth analysis. The audio quality of your voice changes throughout the recording (like changing more bass / then more treble), and very hard to hear / discern without the captions. Nevertheless, I enjoyed your opinion. I don't have an opinion about the whole matter, but you raised a lot of questions. Thanks!
thanks for watching! I’m completely new to all this editing and content creation stuff so I am still in the process of figuring out quality and consistent recording set up stuff.
I marched 1988. On finals night, we were warming up and the scouts came past us. They had this attitude, good on them, like “we are here to fucking win”. It was wild. But, i still think SCV was the winner that particular night.
Whoa dude! This was on auto play and I assumed you were a channel with ~50,000 subs. Nice!
I wish!
FMM here from 90-95. I think the blind draw with all drum majors present at the end of both prelims and semis, in groups of 5-6, would be fantastic even today. The suspense in the crowd would be wild. No pointing at spots like in the 88 vid or even cold envelopes like what occurred in some sports drafts though. Maybe ping pong balls in a bag would work best. Also, is there something on the thumbnail that the arrow is pointing to? Confused if so. Great video!
The reason 1988 felt controversial to some was for two basic reasons: 1) BD was undefeated until Semi-Finals, and 2) there was a draw for performance position. In the end what really happened was that BD's show plateaued around August 10, other corps just needed some time to catch up, and the Scouts most of all needed to catch-up due to a 3 week European tour. In the end Blue Devils took 4th in visual and 4th in percussion. Brass was killer good but their GE was OK and percussion and visual were not championship caliber.
I saw Madison in Whitewater, WI early that season. They won the show easily over Bluecoats, Cavaliers, Star, and Phantom. It was clear even then that Madison had a top-tier show. But going to Europe slowed their growth until they returned. Also corps like Phantom and Cavaliers got off to slow starts. Heck, Bluecoats came in second at that Whitewater show and they would ultimately finish 11th. Even SCV, who was scoring well most of the summer, got off to a slow start with their brass section. They finally had their best brass performance on Finals. Even Garfield -- who won the year before -- came out with a show that was a level down in drill and GE from their 87 show. It took them all season to make something of that Copland 3rd symphonly. Musically Garfield was incredible. They took 2nd in brass and 1st in percussion come Finals. But their visual and GE were not like the year before.
If you watch BD's show it was fairly mundane visually even for that time in the 1980s. It did not compare to Cavaliers, SCV, Garfield, and Madison who all had better drill. BD was just cleaner from the get-go of the season. In the end BD peaked out and the others caught up. In the end Madison simply had the best stats across the board. They were 2nd in GE, 3rd in percussion, 3rd in brass, and 1st in visual. It was a fair win. Well deserved.
Correction - SCV won drums, not Garfield. I was there. 😊
BD always clean… often mundane, mechanical, great technique.. often( not always) but often not enough heart. … categorical well oiled machine, a huge amount of talent and a dynasty to display, but very rarely stealing my heart.( and I have 3° in music and I’ve taught over 35 years.)
@@kirkwilson264 SCV won drums because GE Percussion and Percussion Performance were avaraged to give the percussion award. Garfield won Percussion Performance.
@@totesgene right, so SCV won.
@@kirkwilson264 Yes, and Garfield won Percussion Performance.
I remember watching all the corps perform that year and being totally blown away by the Scouts. All were good, but Madison absolutely smashed it.
same thing happened to my freshman year of high school with drawing first with slotting. we still some how jumped 5 places from semi finals to finals.
I think they deserved a spot in history and if there was a show to represent Madison Scout at its best, this is it. I can't begin to tell you how many times I saw this recording in high school.
I was there! ( V.K.) Madison was Magical! That one performance! Can't explain it.
Great channel! More untold/ unknown DCI history, please!
Is the snare drummer playing Legend of the One-Eyed Sailor?
yes
Great Video Excellent Points made. I marched SCV 88 snare my friend marched Scouts that year snare.Of course i think we should have won and i agree with the slotting curse. respect to the Scouts
Marched Madison. Remember that show, I think it was in TN, that got rained out and Vanguard and us played our shows for one other at your housing site? Great memories. Love Vanguard, always.
@@totesgene yes you are correct sir. I got pics from that night. Great memories
I was on the 50, and I had a great vantage point. First thought was that you could feel the electricity coming off of the field when Madison performed. Sometimes you peak at just the right moment and this was the case for Madison. Blue Devils and SCV laid it out just as they had going into championships and Madison was behind them. So Madison had room to grow and the other two had already peaked and thought they could cruise right into first. Madison put more energy into their show and they passed them. Either way, they had put more heart into their performances than they had all season. In the stand people were crying, screaming, jumping and twisting their ankles, the seats were so close. It was like a Beatles concert in 1964. People were begging for age-out shoes.
The only negative thing I heard was that they had won because it was their 50th Anniversary of existence, which made them the sentimental favorites. That’s true that it was their 50th, but they truly deserved it. The guard was on fire, too!
I didn’t like them drawing great big numbers on the field for performance order. What should happen is what we do at our State Marching Contest. If your corps was good enough and made it into the top 12, all 12 Directors meet in the press box. They draw numbers and that determines the performance order. Period. So if Sky Ryders draws number 11, they will go on next to last.
** NO separation of the bottom half and the top half. That is basically judging two separate contest in one night, when they all were good enough to make finals. Not Finals B and Finals A.**
The judges have to adjudicate the show that is before them. All preconceived thoughts of past contests, including Quarter finals, have to be wiped clean from their minds and judge the new contest. ALL 12… NOT 6 and 6.
If I were the sole judge Blue Devils would have won. It was one of the greatest shows of all time. Even though I'm the only one who thinks this, I believe the gray uniforms had the effect of making BD visually ineffective on the field in a large venue. Small venue? World Champions all day long.
Being fair to Madison, they had the crowd. At the Morgantown, WV show I couldn't hear the Malaguena closer because the crowd jumped to their feet and screamed the whole last minute of the show. That's biggest crowd reaction I've ever seen for a closer, ever.
I also saw the Vanguard in Hilliard (Columbus) OH. Fantastic show, maybe better than their championship show in 1989. It was very emotional and I would have awarded them 2nd.
In the history of DCI the winner has almost always come from last year's top 3. Madison went from 6th in 1987 to first in 1988. After their championship year they were 7-9-7. Was this DCI payoff to Madison for their 50th Anniversary? Performance order? I'm not a conspiracy theorist.
Madison won in 1988 because the judges awarded them the highest score compared to the other corps competing that night. Nothing else matters.
looking back at my program from that year, i Scored BD 4th and though they got a gift in 3ed. had the top two in order.
I marched with VK that year & remember being on the field when they announced BD in 3rd, was a shock! You don't really get a chance to see the other corps perform much during the season, so you go by the scores. After the season was over and getting a chance to watch the complete show from a good vantage, Madison was indeed the best. In my opinion that's one of the top ten performances of all time. DCI got it right. Does anyone else get the feeling Bill tried out somewhere and got cut?
I attend many DCI finals. A blind draw would make it much more exciting instead of going into finals KNOWING who's going to win.
Blue devils 2017 snare break, nice 👍
@6:30 is what I’ve been dubbing amazing GE packages from various corps from 2010-now “The Malagueña Method”. Key moments in the show that carry the entire program that lead into success in Finals Weekends 6:30 . Recently, BAC ‘22’s Closer has been that moment for me. Easily the best moment for me that summer (right behind the Keytar Feat. from The Bluecoats).
I’d personally like my method prove dividends and I think slotting being changed or going away would help it haha 😂
I think the more hotly debates year is 1989. ‘89 Phantom “The greatest corps to never win” is true. They definitely should’ve won
I love SCV '89, but the more I watch it, the more I believe the visual miscues should've dropped them to 2nd.
@@wheresthehang definitely seemed owed. Then again, if they had won in '88, they might've done a different show in '89. I prefer the '89 arrangements and drill, and the closer still has a nice emotional impact. I guess everything workout out in the end.
@@timf5963. There were visual miscues AND…Phantom’s soloists were perfect, while SCV’s had some fracking (minor to be sure, but not as clean as Phantom’s)
@@johns3106 definitely was a rough run. Objectively, I think there was enough evidence to warrant a second place finish, though maybe the percussion's performance tipped everything in their favor. It will always be in my personal top 5, though.
I will die on your hill. 89 Regiment all the way.
Also, keep in mind that Madison came within .4 of SCV at the last show they met before prelims. That show was 4 days in front of prelims. The Cavaliers on 2 occasions came within 1 point and then .6 of BD at shows they met before prelims. So again, corps were catching up.
VK (8th place) was within a point of Madison a week before finals. Madison wasn't even in the top 5 until finals week.
Not sure where your info is coming from.
@@sdssteward Go to DCX and look at the scores from August on. As for VK, that was an 8th place corps and their best Finals placement. Madison was only .4 under SCV 4 days in front of Semifinals. That sounds like a corps that was beginning to peak at the right time. Saying Madison was not even top 5 until Finals is misleading. How do you know? There were NO major regionals in 1988 that involved every corps -- like we get today. None. So on a given night when Madison pulls to within .4 of a corps running 2nd place all summer how do we know if they have not passed Cavaliers, Phantom, Garfield? This is the unknown that only gets answered when they meet head to head. Early season Madison was beating all those midwest corps. Then they left for Europe. It just took a while for them to clean and put the polish on the show. I saw them in early August pull to within a tenth of Garfield at a time when Garfield was beginning to put their own spit and polish on that show. A show that ultimately ended up 4th and .2 from BD. At that show I could tell Madison was going to wave Garfield bye bye. It was at that moment I know they would be top 3. Hearing the news that they had pulled to within .4 of SCV 4 days before semifinals confirmed that. Go take a look at all the scores on DCX (or the old Scorpsboard site). Also check out how BD hit their peak high score on August 10 and then began scoring lower until semifinals.
8/1/88 (18 days before finals)
MS 88.2 +0.6
VK 87.6
8/6/88 (14 days before finals)
MS 90.8 +3.0
VK 87.8
8/6/88 Finals
MS 90.4 +1.6
VK 88.8
8/10/88 (10 days before finals)
MS 92.5 +3.0
VK 89.5
8/11/88 (9 days before finals)
MS 92.9 +1.9
VK 91.0
8/12/88 (8 days before finals)
MS 94.4 +1.4
VK 93
8/13/88 (7 days before finals, 1 day before finals week starts)
MS 93.9 +4.3
VK 89.6
@@sdssteward Ok, you keep saying this but where they hell are you getting your info from? We likely top 3 heading into finals week. I was there. I know. I marched Madison.
I love this video, and all your videos, but I'd argue that the 1993 finals are the most debated.
I feel that the title of this video is incorrect. 1988 could well be the SECOND most debated DCI Finals ever. But what happened in 1975 with Muchachos definitely makes that year the most controversial and debated Finals ever.
The Blue Devils and Santa Clara were slick at the finals but Madison hit the pitch and performed one of the best Drum Corps shows ever! A solid and pure Drum Corps performance with no balloons or disappearance act necessary. 1988 was a great season of DCI Drum Corps. Actually, every year is a great season of DCI Drum Corps...Cheers!
When I first watched the old VHS of 88 I was confused because it really seemed like BD was the corps to beat. The Madison corps in 95 was much stronger than 88 and they finished 4th with a similar show. Even IF Madison was not the top dog leading up to finals, getting the 11th slot and knowing they were basically performing almost last had to give them a morale boost. I don't go to shows to listen to the scores, ears and eyes don't lie. Couldn't care less what the announce at the end, I go for the goosebumps.
There's a band in my area that was first to go in the day out of 25. They ended up getting 2nd overall
surprised you didn't even bring up their european tour that year. if anything, that's the only point i ever hear any debate on.
11:20 we just gonna ignore how guard is hauling booty under that toss and is impressive we had a set like that this year
I watched the DCI finals in the late 1980s, the TV broadcast with Steve Rondinaro had one flaw: they only showed the top 5 in the broadcast, and the broadcasters always hinted during their performance who was going to win.
That place... was... ELECTRIC! (Tip of the hat to Steve Rondinaro)
I don't think that there should be random draws. Quals & prelims should matter. But Blue Devils had the 3rd or 4th best show that night. Madison & SCV were clearly the best 2 corps that particular night. I personally believe that Madison deserved to win.
I was there! Madison was hot that night!
Interesting video and presentation. I never marched DCI, I marched DCA. I was in the army and was too old for DCI when I got out.
I always thought that this year was a lean year for DCI. I didn't think there was a really solid corps in the top 5. And the Vanguard's presentation of Phantom was far better in1989.
2023 , I think should've been Crown in number 1
Very Interesting. 88 is first year I started watching DCI. Been a fan ever since. Maybe do the blind draw again so BD stops winning. 21 times? share the wealth...
Let’s not forget it was an anniversary season for scouts
I think until the judging system changes the order won’t really matter as much. Plus top corps lose members to BD every year so they all have an uphill battle.
Oh my god Scouts ‘88 is such a banger though. I mean yeah slotting is huge and I think at crown this year we got really unlucky with a bunch of our slots but we still were able to maintain higher scores even though we were often going on like 4th to 6th from the end so who knows honestly. Also, were there different judges every night during finals in 1988 because I know that personal preference of certain programs or design teams can destroy your chances of success before you even step on to the field. Our percussion program this summer was consistently being scored in 6th-8th for most of the season but during finals week we had two judges that previously didn’t like what we were doing and one that did which I personally feel is how we scored 5th, 6th, 3rd in percussion throughout the event.
I believe they had different judges for the semis and finals yeah. I think crown did quite well this year. You guys definitely got lucky that boston kind of plateaued mid season giving up that last medalist spot. It would have sucked to see crown go 4 for 4(th place)
oh boy is it crown grousing season again? Ink baby just keep focusing on that. never move forward. this is your most consistent attribute. keep the focus there.
@@popeyesailor9571 what
huh @@popeyesailor9571
Madison 88 show is probably the most watched DCI show ever. Goosebumps watching it... yeah the slotting has little effects but I think it was just a classic underdog story and they blew it out of water. Don't know why more drum corps don't use more Spanish and Latin music for their scores.
03 cavaliers I feel should've won.. its not heated as 88 season... I personally was there and watched all top 12 corps from June to August in orlando.. spin cycle was a masterpiece
Agree Spin Cycle was a daunting task. They should have one and could have one 100 times over the Cavaliers were on a roll and I think that some of the powers in DC I didn’t want to see the Cavaliers win another one even though they truly truly deserved 03. There’s no way the general effect and visuals of the Cavaliers would’ve given them a second place the silver metal should’ve gone to Concord California that year and I know hundreds of people who agree
Playing a sample of the "Concerto for Guitar & Jazz Orchestra" might also shed some light on the controversy of the win. I'm not surprised it wasn't included in this video.
The Concerto for jazz guitar, and Orchestra was quite good. It was not the most exciting piece, but it was good.
@@scotashton766 It was okay. But I'd take the first half of SCV's Phantom of the Opera show or Happy Days Are Here Again and Old Black Magic any day.
@@scotashton766 By the way, my comment is mostly about the effect of the piece itself. No disrespect to the members of Madison. And I didn't see the show live so I can't comment on the performance.
I loved Concerto for Guitar and Jazz Orchestra. That was my favorite part of our show. It was a unique and challenging piece. Fun to play.
SVG and Scouts were so equal at finals that, to this day, I would accept either as the winning corps. This entire DCI fiasco is just one more fine example as to why DCI should not be running DCI. Thanks for another good vid.
Agree - DCI should not be running DCI. As someone who marched Madison, I agree with you. Both us and Vanguard were deserving of the title.
You make it sound like Madison was 'points' behind SCV all season but just one week before finals at the Tulsa show Scouts were just 4 tenths behind SCV. And in semis, Devils and Scouts went on back to back with 5 of the 6 judges having Scouts ahead. Scouts just got clean enough in the last few weeks of the season to jump ahead and win. It's that simple. Devils had weaknesses in drums and visual that finally caught up with them finals week and SCV had a young hornline that overall finished 6 tenths behind the Scouts hornline in finals. Madison ended up having the most balanced scores across the judging sheets and that's why they won.
While true. Madison scouts had the biggest leap in scores compared to any of the other corps jumping 4.9 points compared to Vanguards 2 point increase from the show on the 14th to the prelims on the 19th. The blue devils probably came the closest with an improvement of 3.3 points over the same time frame. Like I said I do believe that the Madison Scouts' win was well deserved. But I'd say it wasn't something that was just "that simple". Had the draw order not been randomized I'd predict that there would have been some different placements and scores in that top 5 bracket.
The slotting argument for ‘88 is so overblown. People are acting like SCV and BD went on hours before Madison. There was one show in between SCV and Madison.
@@CJsMusicTrumpet The draw only impacted Blue Devils and Cavaliers. Had finals order been the way it had been since 1973 in 1988 Vanguard, Madison and Garfield all would have performed in the exact same order as they did with the draw. So performance order didn't hurt anyone.
Blue Devils lost because of their visual. They got 6th in GE Visual and 4th in Performance Visual. That killed them. That whiped out their chances. Vanguard's brass wiped out their chances, finishing 5th. Garfield's 4th in GE and 5th in Visual Performance took their chances away. We (Madison) were the only corps to place top 3 in all captions. THAT IS the reason we won.
But, had Vanguard won I would have felt they deserved it. To me both of us had shows worthy of winning that year.
I was there. There was no controversy about this, thought I can understand BD and their fans wanting to win, certainly. I agree that the secret Semifinals results was a bad idea, and the judging changes. But Madison is pretty universally understood to have kicked ass that week. I was not only in a Top 5 corps, but I somehow managed to be in the upper deck for Madison's semifinals performance. It was hands-down the most memorable live music moment of my life.