Who Will Buy The Old Expensive Cards in 20 Years?
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- čas přidán 2. 07. 2024
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Email: edwinthemagicengineer@gmail.com
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32 years old just got into magic couple years ago from watching Rudy.. I only have one Arabian nights card
a desert... One day I hope to acquire a position in Vintage Cards
Desert is a Classic!!
Gotta get both the standard and Mirage/Campfire versions ;)
rudy and edwin videos convinced me to start buying vintage mtg back in 2017 and i'm still going. eventually, you'll have what you want. i think its fine to go slow and steady, avoid fomo, stick to a plan and slowly grow your collection.
You’re in luck. Arabian nights cards are at their lowest price. They’ve been in the last five years. You can pick up near mint Commons for as low as five bucks. You’ve got to start somewhere. I’m at the point where I am swapping out my land for, unlimited, beta, alpha, and portal three kingdoms land.
why? play with what is out now. build a collection. then when retired sell or give it to a family member who is young . its wealth and also a great game to play. how could you decide
Fully agree that we need to shepherd new players into the older formats. The easiest way is proxies, which make it so there is no barrier to entry for young players and no consequence if the cards get lost, damaged or stolen. I’ve built a dozen decks for my child to take to school to play with friends. That is how you maintain the value of your cardboard investment: let young players experience the power of the old cards, and eventually some of them will buy in.
This has been my experience as well.
O refuse to play proxies, thats not legit. People want to play real accessible cards. That's why I play budget deck in legacy (shame on me) and more expensive cards in commander. I really don't have any problem with rich people, but the reserve list is just stupid
okay i see. yeah thats fine. give the kids some wrtten on cards . i did that in highschool. some cards i had written on.
@@TheFallenA The Reserve list had reasons to exist back then and it serves a purpose today. Feel free to have your own opinion but it's not stupid or pointless. There IS a point.
And if you are going to complain about expensive cards, stop complaining about proxies. They are the answer to the debate. Proxying a $5 card is NOT THE SAME THING as the reasons to proxy a $20,000 Unlimited Black Lotus.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer I complain because people stop buying real cardboard to play with proxys, that's why O don't consume magic anymore. I spend money on cards to build decks and others make a deck full of proxy's of the most expensive cards and win the tournament 🤷🏻♂️ that's absurd!
BTW, what legal damage are you referring to? They own the game and rights, they can change their minds; they can reprint anything they want, anytime without repercussions. The players own nothing but the end product. You nailed it when you stated: this is a GAME, and nothing more, and when you state that modern players don't understand what made old "under-powered" cards special, you're just proving that there will be fewer and fewer people interested in the future.
Yes, but they made a public statement along with the list itself saying they wouldn't print certain cards so as to retain long term collector value. Collectors then made financial decision's with this statement and list in mind (investing in reserved list cards under the assumption that their will be no more made). For WOTC to then go back on this statement it would obviously be financially ruinous for collectors holding those cards. Look up promissory estoppel
Promissory estoppel. WotC promised for years since 1995 never to reprint the Reserved List, which saved the game from dying. After 4th edition and Chronicles hit the market, many of the original players just started walking away because their cards lost so much value, and the negative publicity hurt sales. Now if WotC were to renege on their customer base who have made financial decisions based on the company promise (which has been communicated in writing), it is effectively a violation of contract. WotC (and really, Hasbro) would be sued into oblivion for provable damages.
@@Gamer-J22 I don't see how anyone buying product and holding it by their own accord, especially in a secondary market function would be able to prove anything. Technically if they reprinted but made a slight change, it could squeak through and they tried it w M30. Promises are meant to be broken, especially by Hasbro.
28 years old, got back into magic a few months ago after a 10 year break and it reignited a passion for collecting i forgot was dormant in me the entire time. at this stage in my life i actually have the money to start picking up things i couldn't afford in high school, and i see the exact same cycle continue as newer 18-19 year olds come to the card shop and get into magic for the first time.
people think this isn't a real scenario but it very much is - magic is still bringing in TONS of new players with every set, including the 'flops' like karlov. so many people are either too caught up in online discourse or too far removed from their actual local scene to realize this. the vast silent majority of players just enjoy the social experience of cracking packs and playing games, regardless of the current set or 'era' of magic we're in
even the worst sets will become someone else's nostalgia in another 10 years
you got back into it. because of arena. i did too. but not after 10 years. but 20!
Love this video! Back in the boom of reserve list 2017 era. I was stoked to meet a super cool dude at a card shop. He was playing old-school magic and was kind enough to let me play with one of his decks. It was then I knew I wanted to make an old school magic deck :) Btw you were the cool dude!. I met "The horde" That night and I've been playing old school ever since.
I agree with you Ed! You know what it is lacking? Promotion! In 30 years Wotc or Hasbro more recently never did much to promote the product (they did something but most of it was stupid!) No good tv show no cartoons no big stuff on main stream media wtf you have the best lore ever the best cards you are the first ccg ever,and nothing gets done,it is so crazy to me!!! Just look at Pomemon!!!! Wtf!!!! Just do something 😭 this make me so sad because i'm with Mtg since the old days i love it so much and still it is so missmanaged😭 thanks Ed have a great weekend!
Also the simplest mechanism that will keep the old original cards up is: if they do crash down... man, i'll be among the firsts to scoop 'em up even more. Building playsets of P9s, 4x full alpha sets, anything. That will automatically balance upward their value as i wont be the lone one on this planet doing that. xD
Welcome back my friend! I’ve missed your videos and I’m so glad to see you again.
Hey, thanks!
I think it’s a legitimate question tbh. Coins/bullion are another hobby of mine, and I hear LCS owners all the time say whoever inherits that stuff generally just brings it in & liquidates it. They don’t have interest in it. I could see the same thing happening to vintage MTG. Without the nostalgia element that a lot of the current collectors have to MTG 30 years ago, I can’t see the desirability ever being as high 20+years into the future.
Definitely a legit question. I just completely sit on the other side of that opinion for the reasons I stated in the video.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer yup I get what you’re saying. I heard you talk about bringing new players in, which that argument totally made sense. I look at the net effect though. Will new players/collectors enter at a higher rate than current players/collectors leave/die/etc? I’m not really sure the answer to that question, but the lack of nostalgia for new people might be one thing that makes me wonder how that’ll balance out.
Nostalgia matters, but you are putting too much emphasis on that.
Those cards are the best of the best. They are legendary. The are the first CCG. Even just the fact they are valuable makes people want them
I just hit my 30th anniversary playing magic in January of this year! You have to document in your will and trust how to handle the passing of the cards. I know my family could care less. I just want to make sure to leave info on value that is fair and tools to use. I'm hoping they will hang onto a few, but it's got to be an emotional thing.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer I don’t disagree. There’s the “best of the best” argument especially for P9 and stuff. But, cards like Serra or Sengir, the nostalgia drives the current prices of those more than anything imo. Even as someone who played in 1995, I didn’t personally play with Arabian nights, legends, or antiquities cards. I wouldn’t underrate the nostalgia element.
I agree 100% and I am proof of it to an extent. I got into Magic in 2016 when I was 25 years old having never played with the old cards. I was priced out of the Power 9 but settled onto the original foils as my niche as I thought they had a lot going for them and were also a "first of" in their own right.
If you have 7th edition foils you're already a champ
@@andygoody2599 full Urzas destiny set, half way on Legacy and about a third of 7th edition 💪🏻
Great video. A very good summary of the current situation. May not always agree with everything, but please keep making them -- you've been missed. Gives me stuff to chew on and think about.
I especially love comments like this. I don’t expect or require people to agree with me, just to be polite as we engage each other. Props to you!!
There will always be collectors, but the numbers and value will burn down over time, just as all collectibles do moving from generation to generation. A lot of kids are moving towards fewer possessions and digital everything. In addition, the reserve list can be reprinted, and if there is a lot of money to be made as a last push before ending the game, they will. 20 years after that few people will care, and it will be a footnote in game history.
You are surely mistaken, the Reserve List will not be broken. That has been clear for quite some time. I even have videos dating back several years ago making it quite clear that CE sets could be reprinted, so MTG 30th was not a surprise.
There is tens of millions of young new Magic players. If even a TINY fraction of them find their way to old cards and formats that would be more then enough to support their value
Glad to see you back Edwin!🎉
Thank you for sticking around :)
Me..... because Legends never die.
Ill be there waiting for everyone's stuff 💪🏼
soul blade tingles
Thank you, Edwin! As always: GREAT Video! :)
Great to hear from you Tim, I hope the teaching is going well
Great to see you posting on your channel Edwin!! I am curious. What do you estimate is the percentage of the old school cards (ABU, and Reserved List) that are actually being played vs. just invested in? Nobody "plays" with old rare coins, yet they continue to hold value. MTG ABU and reserved list cards will always be collectible even if nobody is playing with them anymore. What do you think?
Hello!
My feeling is something like 50% at least of the old rare cards are being played with. It's hard to place a number on because we don't have really great ways to show the data... but my best estimates are 25k to 40k Old School players around the world and those sets have rares printed 12k copies each up to 40k copies of each. So the numbers do work.
I like your positivity, thats rare to see with older magic players. I totally agree with you by the way, great points. Also don't forget that other tcg's like lorcana will bring people to magic. The UB's, whatever you think of them attract alot of new players. Even project booster fun and secret lair are attracting new players, anecdotally I know some people that are only collecting not playing magic, also seen more people coming from yougioh or pokemon asking about grading magic cards. I have a positive outlook all in all.
In 20 years most of those cards you are talking about will be mainly in few diamond hands like Rudy. That alone will keep the prices drifting up and blowing up the bubble. I don't believe that any ABU and 4 Horsemen will be for sale on like TCG then anymore, all gone or a few to really absurd prices, and when some old collection appear they will go only for auctions. The same as wealth is will be spreaded in USA (1% has 99% of the wealth), the same will possess those cards you mention. Desasters and losses with do their own thing and shrink the pool naturaly, too.
99% of wealthy people don't give 1% of the shits about holding expensive magic cards.
@@TheRealAudioDidact if what you said is true… the market prices would go down not up. The fact market prices move up or hold steady is literal evidence of demand strength
@stefosonager1214 what you say has a lot of truth behind it. I absolutely agree the data over the last few years has shown a consolidation of old cards into diamond hands. That has honestly been the overarching trend for those cards for 25 years now… but yes it has really increased in the last year.
Having said that, the survival of formats that use those cards comes down to balancing their power and proxy support.
i entirely disagree on the statement that ABU-4H will not be on sale. if i had the money, i could buy playsets of any single 9394 card today at an instant. and thats even NM considering i crack them out of cases to play with. these cards are 30 years old, why would they not be on sale in 20 years? The churn on Magic players and their assets is tremendous, even though the total number of people playing in a certain (old) format may be relatively stable.
@@TheCaptainCruise those cards ARE on sale and the strong hands have been buying them.
The proof is all the people who got fearful and sold after magic 30th… yet you don’t see massive supply online
The interesting thing about vintage mtg is that the only real outlet for it is either mtgo or unsanctioned events that allow proxies. If the cheapest version of a black lotus costs you pennies, then why would a reprint ever affect the price of an original black lotus? I think they should print a paper version of vintage masters and give actual players gamepieces that they dont need to worry about getting robbed for if they want to just play a game.
Well I’m 26 and still need 7/9 pieces of power 9 so I guess it’ll have to be me…
These guys think people like you don’t exist
I’ll show my existence more when I don’t have to spend >40 hours at campus/home for college. Calculus is a mfer.
to only collect it and never play with them. i guess thats cool. probably frame it. but i doubt i will ever have them. they're cool and all and exoensive in their own right. but i LOVE my collection ive been building over time since 2020.
@@ChickenMcThiccken You really need to stop saying people collect and never play with them. It's absolutely completely not true. I just attended a private Old School event this last weekend and brought 8x decks with me and played all of them. Several are fully powered.
It's NOT too late for you to get into the old cards if you wanted to. All you have to do is decide you want to or not. But you are NOT prevented from it. Sure... you cannot jump straight into a Beta Black Lotus... but you can start to pick up original print ABUR + 4 Horsemen cards over time. Eventually sell a pile of old original cards for enough cash to buy your first Mox or Dual land etc.
Since the cards hold their value or go up relative to the other old cards... the money you put into them stays there. That's the trick.
Hey, didn't watch through the entire video, but I figured I'd chime in for the algorithm. The formats which I think will have the largest impact in the next 20 years for reserved list cards is probably going to be highlander (EDH & Canadian Highlander primarily, but not solely). Commander players like me do not like proxy-ing cards (not saying there aren't people who proxy any card over a certain $ amount) if we can achieve owning them, and the same applies for Canlander. I am working towards getting my set of playable P9, and will slowly pick up pieces as I have the money to do so.
Something interesting to consider is 10 years ago nobody would have said player made formats like EDH would be adopted into Commander, and become the worlds most popular format, revitalizing dual lands and making Timetwister the 2nd most valuable P9.
10 years ago people thought those cards were dead and look what happened! Do you really think something like that cannot happen again? I think it already is with many player ran formats.
Are there any known collections that include all 572 Reserved List cards? What would such a collection be worth?
I have a question for you what happens to a tcg when it and its art enters the public domain?
Sorry, I don’t follow your question. Can you elaborate a bit more?
Old Magic will be sold, but the question is for what price. Biggest factor I think is the company itself. If they keep milking the game and destroy the legacy of this game we love, new players will be not interested and overall price will go down. The mentioned 1% is so generous, we could be happy for a fraction of that. Even the entry level the revised duals are 200-700 per card in good condition, witch leaves the cards for investors mostly. So it can happen that people will sit on their cards waiting to make bank, making the new entry even worse. But since we cant see into future we cant tell for sure.
What I think you miss is that MTG has always been a collecting journey. You start somewhere and as you can you pick up cards. Over time you look back and your collection has some value and you realize you can drop these 13 cards and use the cash to buy your first Dual Land. That's generally how it works... but that game gets TOTALLY screwed up when ALL the new cards are crazy expensive when they come out, and lose value over time.
Old cards were NOT that way. They were purchased with $2.5 to $4 booster packs... and grew over time. There was no $200 booster packs like today. WoTC screwed up that entire market by raising the initial cost of getting in and reprinting all your value away.
You can 100% buck their stupid system of new cards by just building a collection of old cards. Yes... you have to pay higher values today to get in... but the money you put in stays or gets better from this point.
Look forward to the negative point video😉 I think your main point is half wrong/right. You can’t 100% analogize to sports cards or other collectibles (maybe 50%?) bc those aren’t games. Making a new baseball card doesn’t affect old cards. Making more null rods affects old cards. Making more busted creatures affects old cards (oath of druids). Wotc has expressed hunger to steal the value of the secondary market. People buying old cards means less money for new cards. Wotc tempering old card value with new cards is another way to get value out of the reserve list and into their shareholder report.
I actually made a video exactly on that topic years ago, but it might be a good time to revisit. It's more complicated then what you describe.
A new reprint of Serra Angel does NOTHING to the price of an Alpha Serra Angel. But a new reprint of a Dual Land would definitely crush the price of Revised Dual lands (even if there was no RL). The reason is because some cards already have those new reprints "priced in". All the dropping of value away from ABU Serra Angels already happened like 20 years ago via reprints. The people who want ABU Angels are the people who want them BECAUSE they are ABU. The people who just wanted a Serra and didn't care what set... now have it. Many times over.
You are over-simplifying it to just say old cards and new cards. No, it's many more factors and each of them matters. Each of them competes with the other factors to arrive on a final market price for a card.
- How rare is it?
- How many formats it's allowed in?
- Is it a fun card to play?
- Is it a POWERFUL card to play?
- Do just some decks want that card, or ALL decks?
- Does the Artwork bring special value?
- Was somebody famous recently using that card?
- Is it about to get banned/unbanned? Or restricted/un-restricted?
The BEST way to look at it is for each of those factors to add or remove their own amount of value on that one certain card. Each card is it's own case study. Just look at Lightning bolt... reprinted like a billion times but a Beta copy is $400 still? Or Invoke Prejudice going for a grand just because the controversial art?
You CANNOT simplify it too much without being wrong.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer keeping this on topic, I think it’s pretty simple-not that complex. The reserved investments guy talked about it on his channel. The part that makes it hard is every hobby is different. But fundamentally, it’s simply about whether collectors who die will be replaced by new collectors.
@@ken90017 On the topic of new collectors, I'm telling you it IS happening. There are some of them in these very replies telling you that's exactly what they are.
On the topic of supply and demand, it IS complicated. People who think "well sometimes supply and demand just does not work" don't realize they are not looking at it correctly. Supply and demand ALWAYS works. You just need to figure out what is the supply, and what is the demand. Those are not simple.
I’m in my late 20s and have 3 pieces of power 9 and a full set of unlimited duals. I really think these cards will continue to hold value but the rest of abu (outside of power, duals, and a couple of playable) I think will stagnate.
That used to be my opinion as well. Then Old School format completely changed my opinion. It showed me hard proof that players can make their own formats where those cards are desired and players gravitate to original prints
Let me tell you the story of the juggernaut that hired a demonic tutor to get off the RL. It worked
Every time they changed the RL the changes were always WoTC tightening it as a promise. They try very hard to bend the rules but they don't break it. They really want to, but they can't.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer Expect that both Juggernaut and Demonic tutor were both on the RL and now they are not.
Post Malone has done quite a bit on breaking the stigma, towards collecting and playing MTG, to the younger generations.
Very true!
My Decipher Star Wars TCG binder started crying after watching this video.
I'm often surprised that game didn't take off more
Very intressting topic. I dont think there need to be more formats for these Old Cards to hold and gain value. Its enough with X-point, 7 point or formats where its not pay to win all the time. I totally agree with you that we shouldnt gatekeep the format as mush if we want the Cards to hold value, every format needs new players for it not to become inbread and stalled and let new players make there Journey from cheap cards to morse expensive once.
I agree we have enough formats now to support their price right now for us old farts using them.
What I was getting at there in future formats that brings the younger players in to using the old cards. Like a Vintage style 10 point singleton where P9 can be used but their power is moderated by the format etc.
But Do we really want these old card to spike like they would if we brought in Vintage X format and 1 % percent of the player base started to play it. Based on value gaining maybe, based on nostalgy and accecibilty to be able to play niche format like old school and such maybe no beacuce a lot of power cards would spike to much and make them even less accecible without proxies.
@@theseer7658 Considering a good Old School deck can cost upwards of $80k I'm really not sure why you think we are not already there. How are we not already in a place where the format is not accessible without proxies for most players? I think that's very clearly exactly where we are right now.
There is some control we have over the prices of those old cards. And some amount that we don't control. I believe MOST people holding those cards don't want to see them crash... but I hear mixed opinions if people want value going up or down. For me... if we relax a bit and allow proxies so new blood can join us, I'm 100% all about the card values going up.
Edwin!!! I've missed you buddy!
Thanks for sticking around bro ;)
Me my son is 12 i just finished his duals abd power 9(white border) he knows about my power nine alpha abd beta and knows that you cannot get all duals in black border alpha. He also knows why i play with white border and i also why i also play with the bewest printing of new magic. He also knows that the importance of teaching others how to play. Yet he still loves his Pokemon but loves magic because it scratches that itch that pokemon does not even begin to scratch. Also he loves the art. Like sol ring knows not to play just get the reprints to play and also play proxies when ever possible.
Thanks for sharing, I hear so many stories like this
Magic is 13+ 😛
I expect that it will largely be the same players who are currently heavily into the game, just when they have got a bit more money and are bored / want to get back into the game in a new way. There's just nothing driving people to buy old cards outside of commander (or collecting) anymore in most areas.
You need to learn about Vintage, Legacy, Cube and the Old School based formats. They are VERY MUCH driving people to buy old cards.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer I am a player of all those formats, there just aren't many of them around in most places. Your premise that only a very small number of players need to be interested in these cards for them to retain/gain value is true, I guess I just don't think those formats are active enough to drive that particular demand. The collector market is much bigger and like you said essentially anyone who gets into magic in any way could end up wanting to collect the originals.
@@oOOoOphidian I know the members of those formats are a small % but they are clear examples that players can make a format and drive demand. People like to return to a format they played before.
Later years had more people in those formats and might find a larger group of nostalgic people wanting to revisit them
The 30th Anniversary set could have accelerated the OS player base and increase the value of the real old cards imo. A shame how WotC f*ckd that up! Anyway, I believe these old cards will be in a museum in 20/30 years. They are almost antique by now! Best, Lorenzo.
Exactly, MTG 30th was a huge missed opportunity to introduce new players to all the old formats with original cards. I would have bought a pallet of MTG 30th myself for years of booster drafts if they were normal prices.
For real, the 30th Anniversary set was a disaster. It could have been a huge win for both WOTC ($$$) and a huge win for the playerbase. But WOTC completely screwed it up and we all lost. Such a shame.
Please also valuate those cards printed 10 years ago into the 20 year future.
I’m very sorry to say… I think it’s not a good future. I don’t think spending money on new cards is a good idea
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer That's my impression, too. But I remember that I already thought that once for the Urza Block a while ago due to the much higher printruns they had with them. Only the Reserved List may keep cards save from been reprint hammered.
@@stefosonager1214 I personally believe that every single Magic card is its own case study on whether or not it will hold/gain value in the future. But there are definitely factors and trends that matter more than others.
I look at it on a card by card basis usually and for any given card I try to land on the probability of that card going up versus down. Then I put my cash on the one I believe have the highest probability
It’s just that it rarely end up positive for new cards. The serialized cards are likely to have value… the problem with them is that they could not be acquired cheaply.
I think you're points are valid if the question is "are Magic cards valuable". Otherwise I don't see how these points apply to a generational hand off because seem to rely on us still being in the game or telling younger players why cards matter even when they don't care about them.
We can see that younger generations don't appear to care about tangible things and there's not a lot being done to make new cards feel valuable. Everyone will feel nostalgia for things in their youth but our time will be done and players in 40 years will want cards from 2024, not from 1994.
Also, proxies solve the issue of enjoying a card but that doesn't mean there will be a market for anyone to buy a million dollar Beta mox in 40 years
i played edh for a few years when i returned and the game was so fast. i tried premodern and it felt more like the game i knew. i also like to see the old pro tournament footage, so many awesome plays you just wont see anymore. premodern is Cheap ass hell, tier 1 will be like 150$. non-foil that is :p
Premodern is a great format. You might like Alice as well.
It's very interesting to me that all these player made formats are popping up and people are seeking out old cards to play them. That has been a trend over the last 8 years.
Hi Edwin!
Hi!
Just my opinion, but I feel the "reserved list" is one of the biggest mistakes WotC has ever made, it started the train rolling where certain cards are just financially not feasible for the majority of players to ever be able to afford. And those that can afford them won't ever play with them because they are just too valuable. It has also had the negative effect of turning the cards that are reserved (especially power 9) into a pseudo form of crypto currency where a majority of people who own them care nothing for the game and use it basically as a form of storing and or hiding capital from those one might wish to hide such things from.
The second biggest mistake I can think of off the top of my head is all these dumb, lame cross-over sets that are coming out....I hate them and now between the overall wokeness of the company and these have little interest in collecting anything recent at all!
Having an opinion is perfectly fine, but you really need to check your facts. Thousands of people play with their power 9 every single day. The entire Old School format is 100% based on it. Like seriously, you could not be more wrong about people not playing with their RL cards. The internet is filled with videos showing it. My channel is even filled with videos showing it.
Also, ALL of those people passionately care about the game. Again, they play it every day. It really seems like you don't know any of them personally and you are just stating an unbacked opinion.
MTG would have likely died had the RL not come out. You talk about it like it's so bad... but in reality MOST formats don't even allow those cards and MTG has 40 million magic players around the world... so the facts seem to disagree with what you say.
Tbh that sounds like an opinion that was forged more in the vacuum of the internet than from actual players; plenty of people LOVE to play with the old cards and some of us have simply had them for years and haven't been in a situation where we were forced to sell. They are a piece of our childhoods, and barring some kind of financial emergency, plenty of us will continue to play with our dual lands, power, etc.
the reserve list was the only saving grace for Magic bacause unlike Pokemon they don't have a generational player base that will keep it going as Magic shrinks.., i would not be holding any Magic cards in 20 years from now unlike Pokemon which will still be strong..just my opinion. the company was ruined just like World of Warcraft.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer We can disagree that's fine...it is just my feelings and no I don't have any data to back it up other than the fact that acquiring playsets of power nine cards would take 10's of thousands of dollars these days. Which if they were allowed to reprint these cards then they could be available much, much cheaper and they could differentiate them some way from the originals with different art. expansion symbols and or borders to allow the originals to retain some value over the reprints for collectors. The way things are currently only maybe 5% (a guess) of players can afford even some of them at all. Not all players have jobs where their income is say $250k per year or more.
@@rogerballoujr.6244 please note that I agree the P9 and other cards being so expensive is a huge hurdle and a problem for the formats which allow them. We are exactly on the same page about that and that’s why I fully support proxies even though I have a huge investment in the old cards.
You should note though, those old cards having value that survives has another entire benefit. If you keep dropping huge cash on new cards and they lose almost all value then 10 years later all you had to show for it was the fun and memories. But if your cards at least held value then you can have your fun and later get your money back.
If you think about it, if proxies are allowed then you have the best of both worlds. Assets that hold value and no restriction from playing. That…. Is a win win
In short? Fewer and fewer will be interested over time
Only if we gatekeep and don’t allow new people to join the format. Proxies are the way forward
The view count on this video says it all.
What do you mean? The video just went live a couple hours ago and my channel is not that big. What were you expecting?
I just think that Old School magic is already dead and it is clear that it will keep dying. I'm old so I watch your stuff, but my kids would rather go play Pokemon or One Piece. I'll probably be dead in 20 years.@@EdwintheMagicEngineer
Well time will tell of course, but honestly now… do you know how many times in the last 30 years people said Magic was dead before the RL cards took off in value in 2016?
I was an investor between 2016 and 2019 and I made some serious gains. I sold during the boom because I realized that I was aging and that eventually magic would fall. I didn't know when, but I wanted to take gains and get out early. I think magic has fallen significantly and I don't think it will rebound significantly. I don't know what the future holds, but you have to admit that all things (good and bad) end. Magic is fun but if you are in it for the money it's best to take the religion out of it.@@EdwintheMagicEngineer
@@TheRealAudioDidact 2200 views and counting...
But they did just reprint the RL, What else would you call magic 30?
Magic 30 did not break the Reserve List. Full stop. You need to very clearly understand that as so many people don't seem to know that.
The Reserve List said WoTC will never reprint those cards again in tournament legal functional equivalent form. That was not broken.
Even more, I made videos 4 years ago contradicting Mark Rosewater and directly telling you guys WoTC could reprint CE! I have the receipts to PROVE I knew this could happen.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer Interesting, I see your point. I am a huge RL collector myself and love this game, I really hate to see it in the hands of Hasbro.
My concern is that if the ship keeps sinking over there, they may get desperate, and as one final squeeze of the juice they reprint it all to get number up before a selloff...
@@8bitgoonies even that situation would trigger a lawsuit and the party buying the company and the rights would also be buying those problems.
Said another way… if your company made promises and broke them you cannot avoid liability by selling the company. The buyer would now own those problems and they will pay you less or sue you for undisclosed issues.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer Thanks for your insight buddy, I really appreciate the responses, Keep the videos coming, love watching your content!
This is why Yu-Gi-Oh has reprints
Relic barrier
I'm a work classe guy and I don't have nothing against rich people bro. I Just don't spend thousands on magic because they are not accessible. Reserve list is ridiculous that's my opinion. They can profit anyway if they reprint duals for exemple. " what about the people that spended much money on duals???" SHAME ON THEM! just like me that I spended much money on banned playsets 🤷🏻♂️ market is Always changing as long there is a demand .
Shame on people for buying rare collectibles? Dude. I think you need to check your viewpoint.
In 5 years Magic is going to be so diluted with other franchise's and fans of those franchise will come into Magic wondering what a reserve list even is causing a company already flying by the seat of it's pants from mostly Commander sales to reprint big name cards from the Reserve List. Who's going to sue? One guy whose entire finances are tied to old cards that he's hoarding? Lol. Lmao even. If WOTC feared lawsuits they wouldn't do half the things they do and the Reserve List Lawsuit is pure cope from people who think a trading card GAME is stonks. Yes, your OG Black Lotus and Mox will never get reprinted and be worth some money but the rest of the List? Good luck trying to push your weird Legends and The Dark rares onto people when it shows up in The Universes Beyond Masters set in 2028 just to pad out a few slots
The performance of the cards proves your viewpoint wrong.
And it’s been 30 years of people claiming Magic is dead, now it’s 40 million people worldwide and growing.
Normally I agree with your videos, but I think the concept of Gatekeeping would work better in a discussion format than as a speech. Let me start with where we agree: I brought several people into Old School format by proving that they could build a reasonably competitive deck for $100, no proxies. From there, I personally have no problem in OS format for fun games with people using proxies. Due to the number of decks that I own, I even have proxies because it makes life easier. OG OS 4 Life!
Now where we don't agree - if people want to pay in competitive tournaments such as Legacy, or even OS, then you need to have the cards. Card games are a luxury good, and people don't have any "right" to play in competitive events. It's not "just cardboard." Think of any other expensive competitive hobby, from racing cars to sailing to shooting. There is a price of entry to get in. You can always do these things as hobbies much more cheaply, but you just cannot play at the competitive level. And that's okay.
Even for myself, I would struggle to play OS Swedish rules (no Revised), but I am not going to whine that they are gatekeeping and preventing me from enjoying the game. It's their rules. I am still readily able to enjoy the game using Eternal rules, or playing with people locally (when I can find them).
We don't actually disagree as much as you seem to think.
I have NOTHING against tournaments/events that require real cards. In fact I think having at least some of those is a good thing! I should be more clear about that.
I think it's a balance, if your entire community rejects proxies, then it's cutting off it's own foot. But also if you never have at least some events that require real cards... then you make it too easy to just proxy forever. Either extreme has issues. But a balance between the two extremes is where the happy spot is.
Does that make sense? Do you still feel like we disagree when you hear my thoughts on that aspect?
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer That's why I think some conversations work better in discussion format than a speech. More sides of an issue get addressed up front. :)
@@Gamer-J22 yeah I liked the discussion format we got more often on Unhinged Magi
"If only 1% of the players..." Sigh. this is not evidence, this is a fantasy. Also, the point systems are basically a restricted list, so not that useful. "you can play with power nine" is much less impactful when the details are that you have to pick 3 of the nine, you can't play all 9. I am not sure what will happen when all the old timers die, but this video has not convinced me of anything.
The 1% comment was not meant as evidence. That was meant to explain what a missed opportunity Magic 30th was. It could have been a huge stepping stone for new players to enter old formats. And they messed it up by charging $250 a pack.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer It is my understanding that those cards were not legal in any format. Forcing people to purchase ANY version of a vintage card to play with it seems counter productive if you want them to play that format. The cost of entry will never be achievable. Allowing proxies would solve the problem, but then you aren't *really* playing magic, so that is a whole other discussion. No offense to you and the others that own tons of Alpha/Beta (I aspire to own a lot of beta, but simply can't afford it), but you are in a world of your own and are largely ignorant about it, despite such videos that claim otherwise. Hard core vintage formats are simply out of reach for anyone else. I don't see any real fix for that.
@@Ranoake You yourself just said that we are in our own world. True. So as a member of that world with decades of actual first hand lived experience, I wish you would consider what I'm saying instead of rejecting it from a place of no experience like you are claiming.
Perhaps you don't know that MOST of the Vintage, Legacy and Old School games I have played in the last 20 years were in person with people and proxies are almost always present. Most of us in those formats have been busy for decades playing our games with each other 100% outside of WoTC official sanctioned events.
Quite specifically, the Old School format is player made, player ran, and many of our tournaments are proxy friendly. WoTC has literally nothing to do with it. So I KNOW what I'm talking about when I talk about the acceptance of proxies.
The big problem is most new magic players don't know about that world and won't take the time to find out. MTG 30th is not needed to bridge that gap... but if it just made some people buy a few packs and try those formats... they would discover what I'm saying.
Does that make sense?
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer It makes sense sure, but I don't think that translates to keeping the vintage market alive after all the 'old people die'. I guess we will see once they start dying haha. Estate auctions will be interesting to see.
@@Ranoake Definitely yes, there is a huge amount of "it's all theory until we see what happens."
But one thing I'm trying to make clear is that this is not a spectator event. If we love those formats and we want to keep them alive... WE the players have a huge impact on whether or not new people come join us and keep them alive.
Not only is my support of proxies a literal act of anti-gatekeeping and tearing down the walls for new players to join... but it's also the BEST thing we can do in order to keep those original formats alive. I think we the players and the old community have the power in our own hands to let those original formats die... or breathe life into them.
This is a literal reason I do all this work to make videos and introduce the next generation.
I find NOTHING more boring than old school decks with all 5 moxen (including off-color), Black Lotus, more power, etc etc. C'mon, make some interesting decks. Too many try-hard players and too few that build janky but cool and flavorful decks. And that is one the things keeping A LOT of players out of the format imo.
That's exactly what attracts people to formats like 10 point singleton. Great format and seems to fall exactly in the area you like. Have you tried it?
Side note, that format completely falls within the point I'm making in this video. The right formats create demand for old cards, even for new players.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer haven't tried it, but it sounds really fun, so I'd like to give it a go if I can find people to play with. I also want to make an old school cube, and I guess that offers a similar experience. Also, I totally agree with your philosopy that lowering the bar for entering, and getting new players into the format is important (and thus making it so that the cards keep their value).
@@hermodnitter3902 there is a facebook group for 7 and 10 point singleton.
facebook.com/groups/523946671643800
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer thanks Edwin! I'll check it out! :)