Why does everyone hate Mass Assault?
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- čas přidán 31. 08. 2022
- In this guide I give a short overview of what the Mass Assault doctrine in Hearts of Iron IV does and what possible applications it could have. More guides on all the other doctrines will be coming soon!
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Mass Assault in single player: Useless
Mass Assault in Multiplayer: Indestructible
I wish that deep battle was stronger, it’s so fun to LARP as the Soviets but you basically intentionally shoot yourself in the kneecap in single player lol
Yep! Its a real shame, but it is what it is
Shooting yourself in the kneecap sounds very much like an accurate Soviet roleplay TBH
They really should've given it a massive buff in NSB, particularly with the later parts of the doctrine.
Deep battle should let you bagration your way through the German lines
@@maximilianodelriobut it does especially in multiplayer
The main reason is lack of understanding of that doctrine and how it evolved during ww2, what paradox tried to implement in mass assault doctrine.
The best example is size reduction of infantry battalions. Its not to put more infantry battalions into division, but to put more artillery or tanks into it to increase firepower without increase combat width. In late stage of war soviet infantry divisions were the best equipped divisions in amount of artillery pieces of all kind (on paper, its not always works). they also had access to standalone tank brigades and heavy artillery brigades (depend on situation, tanks for offensive, artillery for defensive) compared to divisions of other countries. To get a space for them (that standalone brigades) without increase combat width they decided to reduce combat width of infantry battalions.
Another special feature is that doctrine is split on deep battle and mass mobilization, but in their mind we should use mass mobilization way temporarily for defense until our economy will be enough strong to prepare offensive and then switch into deep battle.
for example my standard 21w (its quite universal size) infantry division looks like 7 INF + 2 ART + 1 AT/AA. With mass assault i can do 8INF + 3 ART. It's like compress 25w div into 21w. That mean i can greatly improve firepower of my division at increased IC costs on the same space and keep quite optimal proportions of infantry and artillery. With double -10% supply consumption reduction i can put even more battalions on frontline without supply issues to get quantity advantage. With improved reinforce rates i can prepare then more divisions to replace my frontline ones during combat even faster. It may looks like waste of equipment, but its all about to make sure, that enemy will not get a time to reorganize his units faster than you and we will get quantity advantage on frontline, so we can constantly push his disorganized and outnumbered units.
To get full potential of that doctrine you need strong economy and tons of equipment, that can fill divisions with even more equipment than normally and replenishment their looses even faster. Then produce as much divisions to fully fill the frontline and makes reserves, so with high reinforce chance they should never break the lines at high costs. This doctrine is also very useful on very unfriendly terrain, that require supply consumption reduction and supply grace like Asia jungles and mountains. The best Japan player what i saw since 2016 used this doctrine to do not run out of supplies on isles, so we had very hard job to push him back until nearly everyone were defeated by lack of supplies and his quantity advantage (even with small invasion on mainland japan).
Later we discussed, that it is probably the best doctrine in the game, if it's correctly used and you will give a player enough time to unleash her true potential.
Just play for time. Grow in Strength. Then push and no one will be able to stop your wall of divisions until you will run out of equipment or manpower, so make sure you have plenty of them during offensive.
Quantity is its own sort of quality.
@God heh? That "nob" has 18 years of experience in hoi and played on ho4 on multi since the beggining :D Still hoi4 isnt as co,plex as i want mostly by repetable playstyle of other players, so atm i prefer other strategies, but still i'm very experienced.
Of course players dont need to play as it was supposed to do, but when im forced to play "a predicteable meta" it makes me furious how poeple force me to weaken myself. If server rules allow you to to unleash potential of that dontrine, you will be able to control that amount of units, you will take care about amount of equipment status and enemies will allow you to prepare its final stage, then they are doomed.
Anyway i suggest to look at the game from another perspective. Playing in hoi4 as others says and repeteable playstyles cause one big issue. People like me know all popular playestyles, so we can use our knowledge about units and doctrines to easly counter them since every playstyle have an effective cuntermeasures. Especially since we have access to spies and we can predict enemy templates. doctrines and playstyle. Of course there are country limitations, but we need just to take the best result that match that country possibilities and constatnly adapt to current sistuation. Maybe because of that im playing only minors just to humilate majors? xD If feel better when i can do impossible things from perspective of other playes a possible by using something, that they cant understand (so i have easier job to do).
Yes I really love mass assault; most people just dismiss it, but in my opinion it's one of the most interesting doctrines, due to how and when you have to use it; it's only good in niche circumstances, but in those circumstances, it can be really powerful (like if you're defending against Germany as France, or playing as Italy, or playing a minor nation that needs to be able to fight above its weight).
Yeah! I can agree with that. The only thing I'd say is that if you're in a pvp scenario, it is very frustrating to have your tanks stuck on Belgian forests because the French just nuke your stats every time they roll guerilla
This is one of the most fair and succinct while correct summaries I've seen about MA.
What makes mass mob unique isn't just guerilla tactics, but how guerilla tactics interacts with the reinforce and recovery rate modifiers. With recovery that fast, you need fewer divisions in order to get retreating units to recover org and get back into the stall combat. With the insane reinforce rate, their probability of crucially joining the battle within 4-6 hours rather than 12+ is much higher. The kind of thing you need thousands of soft attacks + armor bonus to break directly.
Another fun way to be annoying with the doctrine: in addition to guerilla tactics, you have the org + body count + org recovery rate to counter-attack tanks that are attempting to make a breakthrough. This saddles them with an additional -50% multiplicative damage multiplier, and necessitates opponents to simultaneously attack multiple provinces along a front to prevent the breakthrough attempt getting perma-hit by the 50% penalty due to org cycling. It's an extra layer of micro hell on both sides as the attacker tries to hammer enough spots to prevent the defender counter-pinning constantly.
Note that while mass mob isn't great on offense, it isn't helpless. Infantry width reduction does mean you can put more stuff into a division other than infantry at same width (and SP doesn't arbitrarily ban putting tanks with infantry!), and this path gives you a chance to roll "mass charge"...stacking that with multi-direction attacks can put width close to 200, even in the newest patch that reduces plains to base 70. It's non-trivial to have 160+ width of stuff that deals meaningful damage on every province while still fielding offensive divisions...and there's also some risk of just getting org-cycled in multiple spots across the line. It doesn't strike the same level of fear as tank breakthroughs, but for example a USSR counter-attacking like that can easily cause problems and pockets alongside allies landing.
Appreciate the compliment!
I feel like you forgot to point out that Backhanded Blow is one of the best tactics in the game too, basically the only reason to go left side
It's kind of ironic that arguable the most defining and successful Doctrine in the war is the weakest in the game
It's literally the best doctrine in the game, most nations in multiplay use it
@@milkes-zw1ehno, superior firepower is generally considered the best overall, with mobile warfare being for tanks. Even grand battle plan is better than mass assault. The only country I can think of that can run mass assault well is China
@kristiangreen3296 superior firepower is the worst doctrine and you definitely not use it in multiplayer
maybe you don't, but I know a lot of players who always choose it @@milkes-zw1eh
wrong@@milkes-zw1eh
The strongest part of MA is the combat width reduction. Larger divisions are actually more IC efficient due to their HP values being so high (plus support companies with percent increases) making strength losses less impactful and strength gains more so. Instead of cramming a 25 width into a 22 width, aim for 42-44 width to maximize the benefits.
This also has the advantage of decreasing the effectiveness of anyone using sub 22 width divisions due to the way targeting works.
In the end, you actually have the highest stats per division in the game, and while you have to spend more IC to get those stats, you end up spending less overall due to reduced combat losses, reduced attrition losses, and more efficient support company use. And you can still stack these divisions as if they were 22 widths due to supply reductions
Note that all divisions of a similar size lose the same amount of equipment when losing battles due to the relationship between org and strength. But of course, for that to be relevant you have to be losing combats so the solution is just... Don't.
Mass assault is secretly really strong in single player. Make a 25 brigade, 40w infantry division and walk away. Pick up queen of battle for extra XP and hospital companies in order to level faster. Eventually, the enemy will run out of manpower or equipment and you'll win. Usually without taking to heavy of losses.
What ive learned from multiplayer is: mass mob for any sort of infrantry, grand battleplan left for marines to get planning bonus on invasions and mobile warfare for tanks.
Sp CAN be good for marines IF you manage to land
Mass Assult (right path) is pefect for Finland in the Winter War.
These videos have been excellent. Big fan. Am I to assume an air doctrine series is on its way next?
Yep! Air or navy next, not sure which one yet
@@bigschmokes the air one will basically be "strategic destruction is the best" end of video though won't it?
@@lovablesnowman meh not really, all 3 air doctrines actually have their own applications. Arguments can be made that both Strat Destruction and Operational Integrity are both equally useful (they both have the fighter buff) and battlefield support is useful in MP for nations that don't have their own airforce due to the ground support buff / in singleplayer because you can easily outboom the AI on fighters anyway
@@bigschmokes see? This is why we need a whole video series
Operational Integrity my beloved
Another great video. Now i understand the doctrine benefits much better. Keep doing hoi4 videos you explain very good .
Thanks man! Happy to be helpful.
will there be a video on Mobile Warfare Doctrine to complete the series about the Doctrines?
Mass assault Deep Battle seems like a combination of Mass Mob, Grand Battleplan, and Mobile Warfare.
The doctrines say what they do. Mass Assault are for nations that can produce several shit tons of equipment and good enough divisions to assemble on the front lines. You're not gonna have the best infantry. The best tanks. And you never will. You should try instead to make divisions that are good enough.
Problem is, for most nations, other doctrines just work better at pushing. MA takes time and nobody likes moving past that 1941-42 year. Especially for small nations, like a Greece into Byzantium run. Why go mass mob? When I can go MW with tanks...or SF with air?
Another issue I have is switching between right to left. You use Mass mob first for defense while you build up, then once you do, switch left. But that uses so much XP. Whereas with other doctrines I can do down the "correct" paths and just be done.
Eh especially in SP playing smaller nations I prefer going SFP & building cas because most of your opponents won't produce fighters (at least not early anyway) and the stat multipliers you get from sfp/CAS in battle are just nice to push inf only minors
I still go for Deep Battle either as Soviets OR Imperial Russia. Mass Mobilization for PRC.
I take advantage of natural defenses to help cushion the Barbarossa Offensive.
To each their own! Especially in singleplayer there aren't really any wrong answers when it comes to doctrines.
Only scenario I see myself using MA in singleplayer is if I barely have enough production to churn out guns and trucks, but I have a high population pool that I can use to conjure a full army group of infantry divisions out of thin air. The ability to deploy units faster than your enemies can be very usefull, especially if you find yourself at war before 1939 where everyone's armies are still fairly small.
Ah, so the average china experience?
What is the most effective counter to Guerilla tactics in MP? Is there any specifically good strategies?
CAS, and sometimes you'll see a Germany going for improved medium cannon instead of staying with HV 1 to kill mass mob in el Alamein or france
The biggest problem is the combination of guerilla tactics with instant reinforcing due to high reinforce rate. The BEST way to deal with (for example single tile el alamein) is build up all the planning, cas and whatever you can and then just constantly charge trying to do the most org damage as possible. Reinforce memeing is your best friend, but this doctrine does make it challenging. Which is why I called it rage inducing in MP.
Cas stacking, high soft attack tanks
Also, though I don't play MP but I have thousands of hours in this game, I think you can make a case against coordination in this specific case, you want it as low as possible so enemy divisions leave combat as close to each other as possbile, so, if possible, avoid signal companies, the mobile warfare 50xp spirit, SFP L (who tf takes that anyways), GBP (Left I think?) and use as little radar techs as needed, just as many as you would need to have full coverage over the air zones you are fighting in
Mass Mob is the best doctrine for holding as France and China.
Generally you're on the offense in SP, so the two doctrines to the right are not as effective.
Agreed. Defensive doctrines only work if for some reason you have to hold for a while, because once the enemy divs are at 50% strength the stats dont matter that much anymore
Simple say is,in singleplayer only defence wins you nothing,as it is very easy to break AI fronts so Offence in this case is always better.
Fuckk mass assault, all my homies use superior fire power
sunglasses
I used to love Mass Assault but it hasn’t been as good since the changes to supply. It just feels weak
Unironically it's one of the few doctrines that reduces supply consumption, but yeah, overall MA is just kinda garbo in SP.
@@bigschmokes it’s disappointing because mass assault used to be the meta. Maybe it’s because we misinterpreted the supply reduction to mean an equipment reduction, where divisions needed less equipment because that would be absolutely broken. At least it gives you bonuses in addition to new tactics but hrm. I need to try human wave more
Soviet Union
Mass Mobilization
Is very funny
I understand the points made here, but, wouldn't choosing this doctrine as the USSR and China in a historical context since you would be mostly on the defensive?
Sure it would, just like picking GBP would make the most historical sense for the UK. Doesn't mean it's the best option. It's not like it's impossible to immediately go on the offense if you're playing the USSR, in which case the other doctrines are just better. Just because it would've made sense in a historical context does not mean you have to adhere to it in game. (Just like how light tank destroyer divs can absolutely demolish any type of tank div ingame right now, etc)
oh yeah, you forgot to add that MA-R is the meta for AC nations solely because of 5% recruitable population lol
True, but for the most part I keep these guides focused on singleplayer since most MP folks already know all of these things. I only tend to include MP if there is little to remark about the effects in singleplayer/if it's significant. Most players have never touched MP much less know what an AC is.
Hang on, if MM is so annoying because of guerrila tactics, why not use MW with desparate defense? It gets recruitable pop and guerilla tactics, but also some of the highest organization in the game.
Yeah MM is faster to get, but MW seems to have more meme potential.
Reinforce rate. That's why MM is better
@@bigschmokes Yet you mentioned in the video that since divisions already reinforce quickly as-is, that it was a fairly weak bonus compared to what other doctrines give.
@@beefyblom it's one of those it depends situations. Guerilla tactics synergizes better with high reinforce rate because you can cycle indefinitely & it saves you a research slot & extra support eq/motorized.
Not much, how about you?
Ah, the people of culture have arrived 😎