@@MrBooblo086 He literally says the material used for the bullets, the brass or steel, is what is doing the penetration, and that the teflon was purely to not cause damage to the barrel, did you even listen to the short?
The rampant fudd lore behind "armor piercing" rounds is always funny. Most of the time, it is marginally better results for a round that doesn't perform as well in other ways.
Well to be fair M2 AP ball is still the gold standard gor the NIJ tests.......M2 AP also costs 8 bucks a pull last time i checked and is not easily accessible.
AP rounds are real its just illegal to manufacture with the intent to sell/sell. There are surplus pre ban 30cal AP rounds and a few more rare sizes floating around still. The main difference is they are a hardened steel penetrating core surrounded by lead with a copper jacket. Its perfectly legal to make steel core bullets until the ATF decides you've crossed the line into AP. Although as far as im aware there is no limit on making your own for personal use.
This guy is wrong about the ammo shown. In the mid thru late 90s, two particularly nasty types of hollow points with +P powder loads and hardened steel jackets that were designed to shred soft armor as they expanded called “Black Talons” and “Black Rhinos” & the latter is the infamous CK bullets. I still have a few mags full of them in case I have any unwanted house guests wearing kevlar or that don’t listen after I “tell” them to leave the first 5-6 times
Working in a gunstore it gets very tiring people thinking the color of the bullet tip actually dictates the performance. Red tips are a popular choice, I still don't know what that means because we carry 3 different types of red tipped ammo for completely different applications.
@@rollin18wheelsrespectfully, you sir are incorrect. I have in front of me as I type this, a fully expanded 240gr "black talon" that I recovered from a whitetail buck in about 1996. They were ordinary copper and lead hollowpoints, coated in a lubricating black "paint" called lubalox. The unscrupulous media repeated a line of bullshit from the movie "Lethal Weapon 3" and some rap songs as fact, caiming they were "teflon coated cop killers". They NEVER went through Kevlar any better than other HPs, and Winchester pulled the product due to the lying media's shit storm. They were replaced with the Winchester Ranger SXT, the same exact bullet and load with no black paint. There was a pointy bullet out of....Sweeden I think (don't quote me), that was intended to defeat Kevlar... if memory serves.
Not necessarily. You want speed; that's the single most important factor, everything else is secondary. Sabots are a method of attaining speed and a secondary effect of smaller surface area for higher pressure, but in handguns it's not an option. Just use a rifle with a really fast round, some .243 loads will cut holes in AR500 plates because they go so fast. The Polish used a famously effective Anti-Tank rifle in WWII that used lead rounds, and they cut plugs out of the armor by adiabatic shear, turning them into projectiles against the crew and internal components. Modern APFSDS goes above Mach 5, and HEAT fires superplastic metal at up to Mach 40. Speed is everything
@@thecursed01Hell, tungsten small arms ammo isn't really affordable for most governments outside of very small scale spec ops use. Even for america, tungsten is a very precious and finite resource that has to be carefully managed.
The best thing to defeat body armor is always speed and smth small. We know pressure is force/area of effect. Thats why 556 is so much better against Armor then 7,62x39. Thats also why they invented the 5.7mm for the P90 and five seven
@@shaeleable Until you learn about tungsten cored ammo for both of them respectfully you’re wrong. The entire point of blackout is a quiet, slow, heavy bullet penetrating through basic and intermediate protections
@@outrun7455 The problem is that a projectile of the same weight moving 2x the speed has 4x the energy, and that is why speed is better than weight. Bullet design of course plays a part both shape and composition, but everything being equal, speed will give better bang for your buck (heh).
To be fair. I don't recall then ever saying they were coated in Teflon... I always thought it was just implied by the super pointy ends they pierce better... Granted I could be wrong I have not seen the movie since I was a teen.
@@SnowLeopard784 Yeah. But recently I saw The Rookie and it irritated the crap out of me. Remember the Nickel Plated "Talon" Hollow point....not actual brass ones...but they were black and everyone said they were "Cop" killer bullets. Dumb stuff like that. Lol although it did really well in Breaking Bad when Hank used it. But also it's a .45 Caliber soooo. Those pesky Human Piercing rounds.
@@joeg5414 just classic "tough on crime" scaremongering, intended to trick you into handing your rights over to the government and their cop attack dogs.
A good rule of thumb is whenever a piece of gun tech comes with political buzzwords its pretty much always just someone trying to make people who know nothing about guns scared enough to vote how they want them to vote.
One reason so many guys survived relatively well from gunshot wounds in Afghanistan was that the opposition mainly used armour piercing rounds, they did punch a hole, even through bone and joints, but didn’t create a “wound channel” and didn’t shatter bones, they drilled through them.
That’s a speculation for some AK rounds as well I believe it’s the N79 rounds or something like that where radioactive materials were used in production
@@jasonrapp5209 What you’re thinking of is the Russian standard 5.45x39mm 7N6 cartridge, which was nicknamed the “poison bullet” by Afghan fighters during the Soviet-Afghan war. The rounds did not have any real poison characteristics, it was just that the Afghans, who up until this point had only been exposed to large caliber rifles like the .303 Lee-Enfield, were continually shocked at the smallbore 5.45 cartridge’s ability to produce nasty internal damage via cavitation and yaw.
Dude, when I heard Biff in back to the future 2 say that George McFly died of “lead poisoning”, I thought it was a stupid line because the bullet would kill him a lot faster than the lead poisoning.
Americans and westerners probably consume more PTFE and PFCs (in a year or few) from food, than they'd retain from the wound channel. Kudos for recognizing and associating Teflon as toxic, tho...
You got a couple details wrong here: They experimented with harder metals like Tungsten and Steel to penetrate armor. Teflon was added to prevent these harder projectiles from damaging the gun barrel. But Copper and Brass projectiles do not need any coating as they are already softer than the steel barrell. When it comes to armor penetration, high velocity rounds, and steel core, copper/brass jacketed, armor penetrating rounds, will defeat all but the highest levels of body armor. And they do not need any coatings to do so.
The best rounds for AP are small diameter high speed rounds. Some WW2 tests showed a 220 swift @ 4200fps going through armour plate that a 30-06 wouldn't
teflon helped reduce wear to the firearm barrel as well, allowing the rifling to survive longer while allowing the core of the projectile to be harder.. it was a sacrificial wear surface.
General reminder that pizza delivery has a higher risk of death/injury than being a cop, so please don't play into their hero fantasy/increase their fear by calling things "cop killers". Pizza is a cop killer.
Fun fact: it is legal to own green tips in some states as long as you don't know what makes them distinct. However, as soon as you google that info, you cannot own them legally in those states.
Ive seen tests. The scariest by far is shotguns loaded with solid glass. (It does not remain solid). Cuts kevlar to ribbons like tissue paper, and the cloud of glass would kill you regardless.
We have some of these, passed down through the family and were bought before the AP ban. Basically the most legal thing we can do with them is keep them in a safe, it's an SCP sort of situation. Purportedly they were worse at piercing metal than regular hollow points and I believe it, lead is great at causing adiabatic shear because it's so dang dense. Bronze is not dense.
What alot of people dont understand is kevlar stops the bullet, but its also “bendy” which means that force is still going to punch you in the damn chest. TL:DR soft armor will save your life but you more than likely wont be in the fight anymore anyway after a few rounds. Meaning these “cop killer” rounds really are just better for penetrating walls and windows, but so are critical duty rounds.
Cops like to call everything besides standard pressure FMJ 9mm or .45 "cop killer bullets" i know a guy who had a .38 super basically stolen during a pat down in the 90s because ".38 super is a cop killer round"
So you missed a factor the first major teflon coated bullets was Winchester they got the name cop killers the big issues was how the round expanded it didn't mushroom but spred out like a petals of a flower they made a bigger wound channel and the petals were likely to break off leaving metal slivers in the wound adding to a surgeons defficulty of tresting a wound lastly cops take alot of time to adopt rounds in the 90s alot of agencies were just moving from revolvers to automatics and were using FMJ bullets as duty ammo so a revolutionary hollow point at a time hollow points were the norm meant only civies and crminals were carrying them and final not new media cant miss a chance to create a scary story which is where the name cop killer comes from
@sog6841 I disagree, he isn't really. The reason why is that to go along with the medias narrative that the bullets were "cop killers," they encouraged the misconception that the black coating on the bullet was Teflon, and thus was somewhat 'lubricated' where it would pierce anything easier. The coating was called lubalox, and was there to resist barrel wear. I believe it was a nickel coating. Where he is confused is that winchester used Teflon, and were the first to do it. While winchester had to quite making/marketing black talons, they still make the bullet under the pdx1 defender and ranger t series labels. The also still use the lubalox coating on the ballistic silvertip line using nosler bullets. Like 223, 22-250, 308, etc in varmint/hunting loads. Not to be confused with the silvertip line in 223, 300blk, that use a much different bullet for defensive uses.
The way kevlar stops a bullet is in how the fibers create a great deal of surface area when they break, dragging the bullet to a stop with friction. Teflon acts as a non-stick surface on pans because it minimizes surface contact with food through it's shape when applied to the metal surface. If it isn't applied in a similar fashion to the bullets, it wouldnt have the same effect against the kevlar.
Three ways for a pistol round to defeat armor. One, hardness. Either a hardened core, or solid copper round. Two, speed. A sollid copper round won't do anything without increasing the speed, and even a hardened core requires velocity. Three, diameter. Big heavy bullets have more surface area to disperse their energy. A smaller diameter round with a narrow tip is able to penetrate Kevlar and many other types of armor.
Teflon is a smooth low friction material so idk how that would in any way hinder penetration especially when it is just a thin coating to protect the barrel.
At least for long arms only (and in most states), I'm not sure there's an issue homebrewing such. TBH, I'm still waiting for someone to *properly* create a down-scaled version of M829(A#) for 12ga. L/44 in 12ga (0.729") comes to ~32". L/55 in 12ga (0.729") comes to ~40". A 32-40" long cylinder bore barrel, a large load of slow burning powder, and a durable discarding sabot fin-stabilized (Grade8/Class12.9) penetrator.
Think I remember reading the Teflon was to make the bullets water proof to protect from rain. And to slide through people easier since it’ll repeal the blood away from it.
Oxide has plenty of videos showing the effects of steel cored ammunition against soft body armour. It’s not an insignificant difference. Usually able to pen with with little effort
I would think that the high temperature and pressure would easily fracture the Teflon coating. Teflon being plastic would restructure into more a lattice and not even survive to the target.
Always heard that name in reference to a sabot round because of the lack of riflings. But that was decades ago by a uncle whose knowledge is questionable in most things. He refered to steel core rounds as anti body armour/engine.
Idk man, bullet tech is a lot more advanced than mushrooming head tech these days. 5.7 was thought to not cause enough trauma but the way it tumbles when hitting soft bits is anything but minimal
Black Rhinos, which were a really aggressive and particularly nasty +P version of Black Talons, were the CK bullets. Those green things are just teflon coated steel jacketed ball ammo
Brass, copper and leaded mild steel, (like 12 L14 for example), are all used BARE for long range match projectiles. Brass and copper are used uncoated for controlled fragmentation projectiles for subsonic velocities on up. All three have been used since the 1890's for bullets un coated. Teflon will do nothing with regard to "protecting" the barrel. Completely unnecessary for that. Teflon was added for another purpose.
The Teflon was just to keep the barrels from getting screwed up by hard caste brass or steel rounds. It's funny how Teflon rounds never became big cop killer rounds outside of fiction, while Teflon in nonstick pans has been linked to multiple health issues.
That's KTW ammunition. Which is rather long out of production and grossly misunderstood. They were made for law enforcement to shoot through cars, and never commercially available, though there was no law against them being sold commercially at the time. Ammunition like that dates back to the Prohibition Era when criminals first became motorized. Initially they were tungsten, but due to the expense of the material that was changed to steel and in some cases brass. The Teflon was not only to protect the bore of the gun they were fired from, but also to lubricate the projectile to penetrate metal. It has no other effect. Teflon coating was a popular thing generally in those days, and was considered very high tech at the time. It became a popular firearms and knife blade finish for a while too. There was a deliberately crafted campaign of lies about KTW ammunition by the old gatekeeper media in the days when they had a complete monopoly on all information. They knew they were lying. It was purposely to drive a wedge between gun owners and law enforcement. The reports they aired in the early '80s about the then new police use of body armor, which police organizations asked them not to do, resulted in an abrupt increase of head shootings of officers. True story. Essentially everything anyone has ever heard about KTW ammunition dates from that time and is exclusively lies and mythology that persists to this day.
Rounds that can ACTUALLY pierce armour > 50 bmg > 10 gauge slugs > Anything that can go faster than the speed of light > Mike Tyson with knives for hands > anything fired from a tank, cannon or car > Batmans batarangs
Nah those are the jolly green bullets that Santa uses on his candy cane chain gun for when the naughty kids get caught trying to see him putting coal in their stockings.
While having a harder and heavier bullet does Aid in creating a armor piercing round a much more influential factor is the speed. Check out some of the videos here on CZcams regarding Liberty civil defense ammunition.
Just some information.....it was all cosmetics. The winchester black talon line the line that started all this had a matt black finish on the jacket and "looked scary". The black talon line was pulled from the stores......they removed the black finish and went with plain copper jackets.......and rebranded it "the ranger" line.......and is marketed TOWARDS LEOS.
Just use a bow and some arrows, because it's a different type of energy in the arrow so it will cut through a kevlar vest. At least that's what I've heard
It seems like if you were wanting to counter ballistic body armour it would be better to go with conclusive force or a higher rate of fire over specials bullets to penetrate it. The former is about nagating the armour since even if it doesn't penetrate the wearer is still going the feel the force of the impact. I.e. the vest is intact but the broken rib from the impact punctured their lung. The latter is due to body armour only being able to take a few hits (at best) until its compromised so something with a high rate of fire could just chew through it before they can react. I.e. mag dumping a .22 SMG into them.
But people believed the BS so much that a ban on armor piercing handgun ammo was passed, despite "shall not be infringed" written in plain English, which was eventually used to try and ban M855 ammo but thankfully that ban didnt get very far
Sounds like a job for Depleted Uranium bullets where it fragments into sharp shards instead of deforming into a mushroom. However read the product warning label first. Use as directed and its intended purpose. Side effects may include but not limited to death, risk of injury, if inhaled or ingested it may cause cancer, and exposure can lead to fatigue, insomnia, immune response disorders, depression, and other side effects may occur. Talk to your physician before use.
It was speed. Speed defeats armor better the hardness doesn't matter as much. Dont misunderstand harder bullets can do more damage but the idea is not to do damage to armor unless you hit it hard enough to make it be the projectile. Like a 12g slug
According to the inventor/manufacturer they were actually less effective at penetrating soft body armor with the coating due to increased friction as a result of polymer bonding/crosslinking, so this whole thing turns out to be a news/political sham
Anything over handgun caliber will do the job anyway, and engaging targets in urban environments allows for setting up concealed locations just fine. Truth is if we wanted to we could, I think we just dony bc all the paychos already have a badge
@@jamesb3497 Fair enough, but I feel like this created a bigger problem in the end, as these bullets just sound like the steel bullets you'd use for hunting to avoid ruining the meat with lead bullets.
@@jamesb3497 your right but the reason we don’t see them isn’t cost it’s because people that don’t know anything about firearms made them illegal to manufacture
Yeah, and they were designed and meant to penetrate body armor you know the type police carry. They were not meant to shoot a brick walls. Steel walls. They were meant to shoot at somebody wearing body armor. And we're proven to be highly effective against early body armor that police were wearing. I don't know about today. But I knew that was the case back in the eighties
Mint green flavored bullets
Taste them like Kurt Cobain
They're actually flavored pills for curing pdf files
They look more pistachio to me lol
Wintergreen
what its like to chew five gum
🔫🔫
It gets lost so often: the teflon is not to help the penetration, it's to protect the gunbarrel.
He said that.
He clearly says that the Teflon coating was to help protect the barrel
@@MrBooblo086 He literally says the material used for the bullets, the brass or steel, is what is doing the penetration, and that the teflon was purely to not cause damage to the barrel, did you even listen to the short?
What the other guys said
I can't believe *litterally no one* has corrected you, but he said that bucko 🤓☝️
The rampant fudd lore behind "armor piercing" rounds is always funny. Most of the time, it is marginally better results for a round that doesn't perform as well in other ways.
Well to be fair M2 AP ball is still the gold standard gor the NIJ tests.......M2 AP also costs 8 bucks a pull last time i checked and is not easily accessible.
AP rounds are real its just illegal to manufacture with the intent to sell/sell. There are surplus pre ban 30cal AP rounds and a few more rare sizes floating around still. The main difference is they are a hardened steel penetrating core surrounded by lead with a copper jacket. Its perfectly legal to make steel core bullets until the ATF decides you've crossed the line into AP. Although as far as im aware there is no limit on making your own for personal use.
You could paint a bullet pink and call them woman seeking bullets and a lot of people would believe you.
Misogynistic, sexual assault weapon
This guy is wrong about the ammo shown. In the mid thru late 90s, two particularly nasty types of hollow points with +P powder loads and hardened steel jackets that were designed to shred soft armor as they expanded called “Black Talons” and “Black Rhinos” & the latter is the infamous CK bullets. I still have a few mags full of them in case I have any unwanted house guests wearing kevlar or that don’t listen after I “tell” them to leave the first 5-6 times
Working in a gunstore it gets very tiring people thinking the color of the bullet tip actually dictates the performance. Red tips are a popular choice, I still don't know what that means because we carry 3 different types of red tipped ammo for completely different applications.
As long as Mel Gibson said it in a movie, everone would believe it. That was pretty much the case with "Teflon Coated Cop Killers".
@@rollin18wheelsrespectfully, you sir are incorrect.
I have in front of me as I type this, a fully expanded 240gr "black talon" that I recovered from a whitetail buck in about 1996. They were ordinary copper and lead hollowpoints, coated in a lubricating black "paint" called lubalox. The unscrupulous media repeated a line of bullshit from the movie "Lethal Weapon 3" and some rap songs as fact, caiming they were "teflon coated cop killers". They NEVER went through Kevlar any better than other HPs, and Winchester pulled the product due to the lying media's shit storm. They were replaced with the Winchester Ranger SXT, the same exact bullet and load with no black paint.
There was a pointy bullet out of....Sweeden I think (don't quote me), that was intended to defeat Kevlar... if memory serves.
If you want a bullet that pierces armor, you use tungsten with a sabot.
not really available or affordable for regular citizens
Not necessarily. You want speed; that's the single most important factor, everything else is secondary. Sabots are a method of attaining speed and a secondary effect of smaller surface area for higher pressure, but in handguns it's not an option. Just use a rifle with a really fast round, some .243 loads will cut holes in AR500 plates because they go so fast. The Polish used a famously effective Anti-Tank rifle in WWII that used lead rounds, and they cut plugs out of the armor by adiabatic shear, turning them into projectiles against the crew and internal components. Modern APFSDS goes above Mach 5, and HEAT fires superplastic metal at up to Mach 40. Speed is everything
@@thecursed01Hell, tungsten small arms ammo isn't really affordable for most governments outside of very small scale spec ops use. Even for america, tungsten is a very precious and finite resource that has to be carefully managed.
The best thing to defeat body armor is always speed and smth small. We know pressure is force/area of effect.
Thats why 556 is so much better against Armor then 7,62x39.
Thats also why they invented the 5.7mm for the P90 and five seven
At least for kevlar, speed is definitely what beats armor.
300 blackout and 9x39mm + a bunch of other cartridges I’m too lazy to name would like to have a word with you.
@@outrun7455 Those rounds are designed for suppressed shooting and hard hitting, not armor penetration
@@shaeleable
Until you learn about tungsten cored ammo for both of them respectfully you’re wrong.
The entire point of blackout is a quiet, slow, heavy bullet penetrating through basic and intermediate protections
@@outrun7455 The problem is that a projectile of the same weight moving 2x the speed has 4x the energy, and that is why speed is better than weight. Bullet design of course plays a part both shape and composition, but everything being equal, speed will give better bang for your buck (heh).
Do they taste like toothpaste
Minty fresh with a tad bit of spicy on the back end
Peppermint, blue ones are spearmint.
😂😂😂
Thankyou Lethal Weapon for making Politicians and Policemen dumber.
Ya... those were big in 80s movies. Them cop kgi**trs
To be fair. I don't recall then ever saying they were coated in Teflon... I always thought it was just implied by the super pointy ends they pierce better...
Granted I could be wrong I have not seen the movie since I was a teen.
@@SnowLeopard784 Yeah. But recently I saw The Rookie and it irritated the crap out of me.
Remember the Nickel Plated "Talon" Hollow point....not actual brass ones...but they were black and everyone said they were "Cop" killer bullets.
Dumb stuff like that. Lol although it did really well in Breaking Bad when Hank used it.
But also it's a .45 Caliber soooo.
Those pesky Human Piercing rounds.
Thank the scrapping of IQ testing for police. Now they reject you for being too smart
'Courts OK Barring High IQs For Cops'
-ABC News
Hollow point ammo got the same nickname. And now that’s all cops use
yeah I remember that was a big thing in the 90s. They pushed it so hard, I thought they were completely illegal when I was a kid
@@joeg5414 just classic "tough on crime" scaremongering, intended to trick you into handing your rights over to the government and their cop attack dogs.
A good rule of thumb is whenever a piece of gun tech comes with political buzzwords its pretty much always just someone trying to make people who know nothing about guns scared enough to vote how they want them to vote.
Yeah and RIP rounds are a prime example of that.
One reason so many guys survived relatively well from gunshot wounds in Afghanistan was that the opposition mainly used armour piercing rounds, they did punch a hole, even through bone and joints, but didn’t create a “wound channel” and didn’t shatter bones, they drilled through them.
I figured the Teflon was to somehow poison the person shot. Don't know why my brain made that leap in logic.
Green
That’s a speculation for some AK rounds as well I believe it’s the N79 rounds or something like that where radioactive materials were used in production
@@jasonrapp5209 What you’re thinking of is the Russian standard 5.45x39mm 7N6 cartridge, which was nicknamed the “poison bullet” by Afghan fighters during the Soviet-Afghan war. The rounds did not have any real poison characteristics, it was just that the Afghans, who up until this point had only been exposed to large caliber rifles like the .303 Lee-Enfield, were continually shocked at the smallbore 5.45 cartridge’s ability to produce nasty internal damage via cavitation and yaw.
Dude, when I heard Biff in back to the future 2 say that George McFly died of “lead poisoning”, I thought it was a stupid line because the bullet would kill him a lot faster than the lead poisoning.
Americans and westerners probably consume more PTFE and PFCs (in a year or few) from food, than they'd retain from the wound channel.
Kudos for recognizing and associating Teflon as toxic, tho...
You got a couple details wrong here: They experimented with harder metals like Tungsten and Steel to penetrate armor. Teflon was added to prevent these harder projectiles from damaging the gun barrel. But Copper and Brass projectiles do not need any coating as they are already softer than the steel barrell.
When it comes to armor penetration, high velocity rounds, and steel core, copper/brass jacketed, armor penetrating rounds, will defeat all but the highest levels of body armor. And they do not need any coatings to do so.
The best rounds for AP are small diameter high speed rounds. Some WW2 tests showed a 220 swift @ 4200fps going through armour plate that a 30-06 wouldn't
4200 is insane. I want one.
Well yeah vast majority of modern armor piercing cannon rounds are Sabot enclosed thin diameter high velocity projectiles
Like the Eargesplitten Loudenboomer
teflon helped reduce wear to the firearm barrel as well, allowing the rifling to survive longer while allowing the core of the projectile to be harder.. it was a sacrificial wear surface.
Yes we all watched the same video as you
General reminder that pizza delivery has a higher risk of death/injury than being a cop, so please don't play into their hero fantasy/increase their fear by calling things "cop killers". Pizza is a cop killer.
They lost their last shred of respect from people at Uvalde
Remember 'the sound of screaming children has been edited out'?
The thin crust line
Oh no! You just ruined the entire plot of Lethal Weapon 3!
Fun fact: it is legal to own green tips in some states as long as you don't know what makes them distinct. However, as soon as you google that info, you cannot own them legally in those states.
Uuuh, isn't green tip just standard FMJ?
The projectile was called KTW, it was a solid Bronze bullet with a Teflon coating.
-Fmj "Am I a JoKe To YoU?"
Fmj is lead core these were solid brass with a Teflon coating to protect the barrel of the firearm
I saw a movie once where a guy put mercury inside the hollow point and soldered over it.
Lethal Weapon 3 vibes
that word sounds so much cooler than ”unaliving”.
Ive seen tests. The scariest by far is shotguns loaded with solid glass. (It does not remain solid). Cuts kevlar to ribbons like tissue paper, and the cloud of glass would kill you regardless.
We have some of these, passed down through the family and were bought before the AP ban. Basically the most legal thing we can do with them is keep them in a safe, it's an SCP sort of situation. Purportedly they were worse at piercing metal than regular hollow points and I believe it, lead is great at causing adiabatic shear because it's so dang dense. Bronze is not dense.
I had thought that reputation was invented for the Lethal Weapon movies.
As anyone who played System Shock knows, Teflon rounds do more damage against all enemies with an extra damage boost towards robotic enemies
I heard "teflon coated bullets" and thought I stumbled on a The Expanse short at first.
They're banned in my state. I never thought they were any better. I had some federal lead ones years ago, they just said it kept the barrel cleaner
What alot of people dont understand is kevlar stops the bullet, but its also “bendy” which means that force is still going to punch you in the damn chest. TL:DR soft armor will save your life but you more than likely wont be in the fight anymore anyway after a few rounds. Meaning these “cop killer” rounds really are just better for penetrating walls and windows, but so are critical duty rounds.
Cops like to call everything besides standard pressure FMJ 9mm or .45 "cop killer bullets" i know a guy who had a .38 super basically stolen during a pat down in the 90s because ".38 super is a cop killer round"
So you missed a factor the first major teflon coated bullets was Winchester they got the name cop killers the big issues was how the round expanded it didn't mushroom but spred out like a petals of a flower they made a bigger wound channel and the petals were likely to break off leaving metal slivers in the wound adding to a surgeons defficulty of tresting a wound lastly cops take alot of time to adopt rounds in the 90s alot of agencies were just moving from revolvers to automatics and were using FMJ bullets as duty ammo so a revolutionary hollow point at a time hollow points were the norm meant only civies and crminals were carrying them and final not new media cant miss a chance to create a scary story which is where the name cop killer comes from
You don’t know what you’re talking about. You are confusing KTW with Black Talon
That just sounds like a hollow point.
You mean a jhp?
Do you not know what a period is?
@sog6841 I disagree, he isn't really. The reason why is that to go along with the medias narrative that the bullets were "cop killers," they encouraged the misconception that the black coating on the bullet was Teflon, and thus was somewhat 'lubricated' where it would pierce anything easier. The coating was called lubalox, and was there to resist barrel wear. I believe it was a nickel coating. Where he is confused is that winchester used Teflon, and were the first to do it. While winchester had to quite making/marketing black talons, they still make the bullet under the pdx1 defender and ranger t series labels. The also still use the lubalox coating on the ballistic silvertip line using nosler bullets. Like 223, 22-250, 308, etc in varmint/hunting loads. Not to be confused with the silvertip line in 223, 300blk, that use a much different bullet for defensive uses.
Teflon and gun barrels first met when smokeless powder became more common.
The way kevlar stops a bullet is in how the fibers create a great deal of surface area when they break, dragging the bullet to a stop with friction. Teflon acts as a non-stick surface on pans because it minimizes surface contact with food through it's shape when applied to the metal surface. If it isn't applied in a similar fashion to the bullets, it wouldnt have the same effect against the kevlar.
No one ever called the "cop Flatliners"
Three ways for a pistol round to defeat armor. One, hardness. Either a hardened core, or solid copper round. Two, speed. A sollid copper round won't do anything without increasing the speed, and even a hardened core requires velocity. Three, diameter. Big heavy bullets have more surface area to disperse their energy. A smaller diameter round with a narrow tip is able to penetrate Kevlar and many other types of armor.
Huh… I thought it was those Winchester Ranger rounds 20+ years ago that became so expensive and hard to find nowadays.
Teflon is a smooth low friction material so idk how that would in any way hinder penetration especially when it is just a thin coating to protect the barrel.
Want a steel/ tungsten core in a lead round
At least for long arms only (and in most states), I'm not sure there's an issue homebrewing such.
TBH, I'm still waiting for someone to *properly* create a down-scaled version of M829(A#) for 12ga.
L/44 in 12ga (0.729") comes to ~32".
L/55 in 12ga (0.729") comes to ~40".
A 32-40" long cylinder bore barrel, a large load of slow burning powder, and a durable discarding sabot fin-stabilized (Grade8/Class12.9) penetrator.
Steal core ammo is very common
Think I remember reading the Teflon was to make the bullets water proof to protect from rain. And to slide through people easier since it’ll repeal the blood away from it.
props for using cooler cyberpunk 'flatline' instead of 'un$1!v3'
Oxide has plenty of videos showing the effects of steel cored ammunition against soft body armour. It’s not an insignificant difference. Usually able to pen with with little effort
I would think that the high temperature and pressure would easily fracture the Teflon coating. Teflon being plastic would restructure into more a lattice and not even survive to the target.
Always heard that name in reference to a sabot round because of the lack of riflings. But that was decades ago by a uncle whose knowledge is questionable in most things. He refered to steel core rounds as anti body armour/engine.
Idk man, bullet tech is a lot more advanced than mushrooming head tech these days. 5.7 was thought to not cause enough trauma but the way it tumbles when hitting soft bits is anything but minimal
5.7 is less effective than a literal 9mm.
Yeah not really a good round much like 300 blk it’s hyped up a lot but when really used it’s not very affective
Black Rhinos, which were a really aggressive and particularly nasty +P version of Black Talons, were the CK bullets. Those green things are just teflon coated steel jacketed ball ammo
The Teflon really works if you get them with a skillet
When up against a juggernaut suit; face shield. Doesn't matter what ammo.
Brass, copper and leaded mild steel, (like 12 L14 for example), are all used BARE for long range match projectiles. Brass and copper are used uncoated for controlled fragmentation projectiles for subsonic velocities on up. All three have been used since the 1890's for bullets un coated. Teflon will do nothing with regard to "protecting" the barrel. Completely unnecessary for that. Teflon was added for another purpose.
It allows the ML-41 Minipistol to do more damage to armored targets, obviously.
KTW, hardened steel bullet. Teflon coated for less barrel wear and possible accuracy degradation.
The Teflon was just to keep the barrels from getting screwed up by hard caste brass or steel rounds.
It's funny how Teflon rounds never became big cop killer rounds outside of fiction, while Teflon in nonstick pans has been linked to multiple health issues.
teflon or PTFE is an extemely soft plastic and a thin jacket of the material would be stripped off the projectile extremely quickly
they're actually advertised as being less effective against Kevlar than lead bullets
Also we need to remember steel is lighter than lead so projectiles do less damage to flesh and more to armor already.
Even if it's not a "flatliner" as in de*d, they'd still knock you down or out of shooting/fighting.
They are barrier blind ammo.... Not great on body armor but can be more effective than jacketed ammo if it isn't steel or penatrator tipped.
There is a difference between barrier penetration and armor penetration.
See the M855 5.56 rounds for a perfect example.
That's KTW ammunition. Which is rather long out of production and grossly misunderstood. They were made for law enforcement to shoot through cars, and never commercially available, though there was no law against them being sold commercially at the time. Ammunition like that dates back to the Prohibition Era when criminals first became motorized. Initially they were tungsten, but due to the expense of the material that was changed to steel and in some cases brass. The Teflon was not only to protect the bore of the gun they were fired from, but also to lubricate the projectile to penetrate metal. It has no other effect. Teflon coating was a popular thing generally in those days, and was considered very high tech at the time. It became a popular firearms and knife blade finish for a while too. There was a deliberately crafted campaign of lies about KTW ammunition by the old gatekeeper media in the days when they had a complete monopoly on all information. They knew they were lying. It was purposely to drive a wedge between gun owners and law enforcement. The reports they aired in the early '80s about the then new police use of body armor, which police organizations asked them not to do, resulted in an abrupt increase of head shootings of officers. True story. Essentially everything anyone has ever heard about KTW ammunition dates from that time and is exclusively lies and mythology that persists to this day.
Heck, maybe putting only a side coating of teflon that rubs of fast coul work...
Rounds that can ACTUALLY pierce armour
> 50 bmg
> 10 gauge slugs
> Anything that can go faster than the speed of light
> Mike Tyson with knives for hands
> anything fired from a tank, cannon or car
> Batmans batarangs
Nah those are the jolly green bullets that Santa uses on his candy cane chain gun for when the naughty kids get caught trying to see him putting coal in their stockings.
While having a harder and heavier bullet does Aid in creating a armor piercing round a much more influential factor is the speed. Check out some of the videos here on CZcams regarding Liberty civil defense ammunition.
Sounds like an early FMJ
In the movie Ronin, Deniro takes one through his vest, a blames it on a Teflon coated bullet.
You need those black tips if you’re going to stop anyone wearing ceramic and Kevlar
Just some information.....it was all cosmetics. The winchester black talon line the line that started all this had a matt black finish on the jacket and "looked scary". The black talon line was pulled from the stores......they removed the black finish and went with plain copper jackets.......and rebranded it "the ranger" line.......and is marketed TOWARDS LEOS.
I wonder if you could keep the tips of the bullets uncoated to have the best of both worlds. Not damaging your barrel, and higher pen power.
The coating was also used to protect rifling. The same way molly coaded bullets are used today.
Bros speech started lagging 😂
Just use a bow and some arrows, because it's a different type of energy in the arrow so it will cut through a kevlar vest. At least that's what I've heard
Kinda. Until you meet some actual armor plates (metal or ceramics).
Kevlars crazy to put together in the shop, that's all I'm allowed to say abt it
You don't have to exactly penetrate to do damage the impact of the Projectile can do damaged too just like sand bags if hit in the right place
Thank you for bringing this up alarm at 80s movie annoy me when they bring the cop killer lineup
Sounds like M855 vs ball, just a bit more pen, but same armor rating to stop it
I wonder if the Teflon coating was to reduce the barrel damage that results from using a steel bullet.
The Teflon coating has nothing to do with penetration. It is there to protect the bore from the hard projectile.
the Teflon is to protect the barrel AND to engage the rifling
Damn, so since Lethal Weapon 3 I've assumed the teflon was to aid the penetration.
Hollwood lied again. (sarcasm people, dont @ me)
It seems like if you were wanting to counter ballistic body armour it would be better to go with conclusive force or a higher rate of fire over specials bullets to penetrate it.
The former is about nagating the armour since even if it doesn't penetrate the wearer is still going the feel the force of the impact. I.e. the vest is intact but the broken rib from the impact punctured their lung.
The latter is due to body armour only being able to take a few hits (at best) until its compromised so something with a high rate of fire could just chew through it before they can react. I.e. mag dumping a .22 SMG into them.
The bullet is steel so I don't see how it would reduce wear on the barrel. Unless the Teflon jacket is quite thick
From the moment I understood the weakness of my lead bullets, it disgusted me. I craved the strength and certainty of steel.
They came out on the 1980s.
KTW ammunition they were called. They were not very effective and had a short life with police.
Powder coat works just as well and it’s perfectly legal to do
But people believed the BS so much that a ban on armor piercing handgun ammo was passed, despite "shall not be infringed" written in plain English, which was eventually used to try and ban M855 ammo but thankfully that ban didnt get very far
*no honey we have green tips at home"
The 7.63 bottle Neck is a cop Killer.
Black Talons didn't do anything against armor and were only rumored to have such abilities.
Steel core 9mm Luger can beat a lot of “lllA” armor.
Sounds like a job for Depleted Uranium bullets where it fragments into sharp shards instead of deforming into a mushroom. However read the product warning label first. Use as directed and its intended purpose. Side effects may include but not limited to death, risk of injury, if inhaled or ingested it may cause cancer, and exposure can lead to fatigue, insomnia, immune response disorders, depression, and other side effects may occur. Talk to your physician before use.
The Teflon is there to make them more expensive and increase profit.
The shock of being hit by such a bullet would still do a lot of damage, even if the kevlar wasn't penitrated.
That's true of any bullet.
It was speed. Speed defeats armor better the hardness doesn't matter as much. Dont misunderstand harder bullets can do more damage but the idea is not to do damage to armor unless you hit it hard enough to make it be the projectile. Like a 12g slug
Teflon Coated? Meager.
*Teflon Core? MAJOR.*
According to the inventor/manufacturer they were actually less effective at penetrating soft body armor with the coating due to increased friction as a result of polymer bonding/crosslinking, so this whole thing turns out to be a news/political sham
KTW was the original name, back in the 1980's.
Anything over handgun caliber will do the job anyway, and engaging targets in urban environments allows for setting up concealed locations just fine.
Truth is if we wanted to we could, I think we just dony bc all the paychos already have a badge
wait, wouldn't a copper coat have been than teflon?
I'm sure it was quicker and cheaper to dip them in plastic than add another layer of metal.
@@jamesb3497 Fair enough, but I feel like this created a bigger problem in the end, as these bullets just sound like the steel bullets you'd use for hunting to avoid ruining the meat with lead bullets.
@@jamesb3497 your right but the reason we don’t see them isn’t cost it’s because people that don’t know anything about firearms made them illegal to manufacture
I thought it was because they have similar ballistics to copper FMJ but they don’t spall
Yeah, and they were designed and meant to penetrate body armor you know the type police carry.
They were not meant to shoot a brick walls. Steel walls. They were meant to shoot at somebody wearing body armor.
And we're proven to be highly effective against early body armor that police were wearing. I don't know about today.
But I knew that was the case back in the eighties