Where and Why Do We Need AFCI Protection?
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Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters are relatively newer technology. And at the pace the electrical industry is changing and adapting, there may be confusion on WHAT AFCI is and WHERE we need to place them. In the latest episode of Electrician U, Dustin demystifies AFCI’s.
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Before we get into WHERE AFCI’s are required let’s talk a bit about WHAT an AFCI does. An AFCI device detects both types of arcs that an electrical circuit can provide and interrupts the circuit (much like a GFCI breaker does) protecting it from the harmful effects of said arc. A SERIES arc fault is where the wires are broken (or cut) and there is an arc from one side of the wire to the next (in series with one another). A PARALLEL arc fault is where a hot and a neutral wire are not quite directly shorting out, but rather arcing between themselves. The technology for combating these types of arcs is located in the protecting device itself and can sense which type of ARC is present and protect the circuit accordingly.
Devices to protect against Arc Faults come in the same forms as GFCI devices. You can get them in breakers or devices. Breakers protect the ENTIRE circuit, while the devices protect anything downstream from the device. Breakers also come in a C AFCI flavor, which is a combination breaker capable of protecting against both series arcs and parallel arcs. The technology we have today allows us to also have DUAL FUNCTION breakers, which protect against Arc Faults AND Ground Faults.
Article 210.12 of the National Electrical Code is the section that governs AFCI protection. For the most part, AFCI protection is required for most residential applications. As stated before, the protection can come in the form of a breaker or a device in the wall, may require different types of wiring methods, and must be installed in a readily accessible location (just like GFCI’s). Worth mentioning is the requirement for CIRCUIT protection. Whereas GFCI protection typically covers the DEVICE, AFCI protection is designed to protect the CIRCUIT, not just the device. For dwelling units (210.12B), AFCI is required in Kitchens, Family Rooms, Dining Rooms, Living Rooms, Parlors, Libraries, Dens, Bedrooms, Sunrooms, Recreation Rooms, Closets, Hallways, Laundry Areas, and Similar Rooms/Areas. In essence, it is the ENTIRE house, with the exception of bathrooms, garages, and the exterior of the home. 210.12C covers dormitory units (same general dwelling unit categories, just in a smaller footprint) and 210.12D covers other occupancies (guest rooms of hotels/motels, sleeping rooms of nursing homes, and sleeping quarters of first responder type stations). Basically, any place where a person could be living/sleeping needs to have AFCI protection.
There are a couple of exceptions in dwelling units where circuits in one of the above-mentioned areas do not need AFCI protection. These are for circuits supplying a fire alarm system (although it requires the circuit to be in some form of metal raceway) and for circuits supplying an outlet for arc welding equipment (although this exception is currently only until January 1st, 2025) as this by nature is an arc making machine!!
As always, make sure you are referencing the latest edition of the NEC, as the code is constantly evolving between code cycles as technology/installation methods/types of equipment/materials are changing rapidly!
We hope this has been helpful in understanding what an AFCI device is and where they are required to be installed. Is there a topic you would like to see discussed on Electrician U? Leave a comment in the comments section and let us know. Please continue to follow Dustin and Electrician U as we are constantly updating our content to assist our followers in becoming the best electricians that they can be.
#electrician #electrical #electricity #where #why #afci #protection
Sometimes I think the code books are just there to create a business to keep the paper pushers, inspectors and inexperienced 'tradespeople' employed.
So much of this could be summarized with common language; all we need is an updated version every 5-10 years...
I think the next generation should work towards: "how do we reduce the verbiage in this thing". 🤷
Yeah, it all seems like a way to gatekeep.
Couldn't agree more.
I've looked over the last few version of the NEC and 90% of it is the same in all version.
I feel it's the same game colleges play with text books.
Where every semester or two a new edition comes out with the page numbers switched around and the questions are worded differently.
It's not just that.
It's written and approved by the industry that profits off the code.
GFI has a time and a place. AFI I'm still not a believer in. We still have issues with them and they are one of the most common call back causes.
But everything is stupid expensive. And the only true winners are the manufacturers who rape everyone on the price. They cost around $5.35 to make last audit I assisted with. They sell for over $50 trade price.
The average electrical installation cost for a home went from $5000 about 20 years ago to over $20000. Yeah, copper went up. But not by that much.
@@jakerasp and to make multi billion dollar corporations richer regardless of whether it actually helps the electrical safety
2023 actually has some stuff to cut costs, things like lower minimum breaker and wiring size for lighting. I’m kind of surprised. Then again I suspect shrinkflation will happen when 2023 is widely adopted.
AFCI breakers are the single most annoying thing we have ever had to deal with.
Foster Farms OK ---- I agree whole heartedly.
They've gotten better in the sense that they mostly don't trip as much as when they first came out on the market. But, they are the biggest pain in the ass trying to keep up with the codes changing and no consistency from city to city, and they still trip too easily.
Then you add the cost per AFCI/GFCI and or combo or dual function for every breaker in a home, the cost can be as much or more than the cost of the whole service upgrade itself.
I'd like to be the guy who is getting his palm greased for implementing these things into mandatory code compliance. It's probably the same guy who sold the country the lie about CFLs and forced everyone to comply with those when in reality it was just a scam to buy time for LEDs to hit the market at reasonable costs.
Complete scam saying CFLs were better for the environment. Right. Because mercury is so much better than a tiny filament of tungsten. A bunch of criminals is all they are.
@@13_13k they change up codes because it guarantees them a job
Agree. Literally the worst invention in electrical history.
Explaining to customers becomes a nightmare when they find out how much they cost
You got that right
My home is 120 years old...partially rewired....but now use AFCI on any circuit in the older sections...definitely necessary if you intend keeping any older wiring in place....
10:00 welders work off of a transformer. Welding is done ins the 25-30v range. The breaker cannot see what’s happening after the transformer it only sees a constant load. This is why you don’t want to play with microwave transformers. Nothing will trip if you latch on and it frys you.
Well-stated and accurate
The breaker sees a proportional current as compared to the current flowing on the load side of the transformer. If there is a pulsed consumer on the load side of the transformer such as a welder striking an arc or an SCR firing into an electric heater - those same pulses will be seen proportionally on the line side of the transformer. Feeder breaker supplying transformer loads do not see transformers as constant loads
The load seen on the primary will reflect the load on the secondary, but the transformer is designed for 60 or 50 Hz and won’t pass the higher frequency arcing back to the primary.
Not all arc welders have transformers some use dropping resistor's so the arc breaker would trip. So there is a concern for these type of welders on AFCI circuits. 73
There was actually a fault in hotel suit some years ago. A transformer put out smoke and the guy died. There was no code for securing the secondary.
Brushed motors will arc between the brushes and commutator, which is probably why garages/workshops and exterior receptacles (that might power electric mowers) are exempt. However, kitchens may have mixers and blenders that still use brushed motors and that might be real fun to deal with when trying to bake a cake.
I've got a vacuum that will trip the AFCI on only one circuit.
This was a great video. I learned a lot about why things trip sometimes.
Stop at GFCI in your production shop. Ask me how I know. The alternative is to replace all of your tools to ensure they are brushless. I have a 70-year old Radial Arm Saw (RAS) in my shop that will trip the AFCI whenever it was turned on. GFCI is a sufficient level of protection in this “garage-like” application. A new, brushless motor RAS would typically cost $5000+. Though the shop is technically “habitable,” no one sleeps there (unless they want to find a new job / employer). Grateful for this NEC exception.
Worth the price. Some brands seem better than others. I’ve had a partial residential remodel where they were added to new circuits by Code. I added outlets to a pre-existing circuit in bedrooms. With a normal breaker the circuit stayed on. With an arc fault, the circuit would immediately trip. I traced out the wire and found the pre-existing wiring insulation gone in the attic from squirrels. In this case the arc faults stopped a potential fire that a normal breaker would not trip on.
Probably the only time I heard about an AFCI breaker tripping for an actual good reason 😂
Similar experience here. I'm glad I made the upgrade.
Was working in the attic, and while I know to check both sides of a joist before drilling - the one time I didn’t / you guessed it. I put an afci/gfci outlet in my living room a few months ago and when I hit the wire - no bang, no arc flash - nothing. These things are amazing and I’m a strong believer. Hopefully we can see the costs coming down as I’d like to see them more accessible.
Thank you for sharing. As a homevinspector I am seeing many new panels with AFCI protection for all circuits and dust function breakers for circuits for kitchens, bathrooms, unfinished basements, and exterior.
I watch all youtube at 2x. your channel is the easiest to understand, and your energy lends to that faster delivery.
Great video, and editing, very helpful, thank u💯✌️
I just so love "Code Time"; mainly because I'm still having trouble navigating the NEC and can rarely find the information I seek. I know, bless my heart ... 😄
for the "arc welder" part, I think the breaker might not trip simply because the "arcing" is isolated on the other side of a transformer or inverter built in to the machine.
Solid information from a solid electrician. I appreciate what you do for the trade thank you.
My problem with afci breakers is how they’re being made mandatory so the manufacturers (NEMA) are price gouging. These things are around $70 each last I saw them. And what do you know, more and more circuits are being required to have one. And people wonder how owning a home gets further and further from more people’s grasp.
I have an old house with some suspect wiring. I wanted the added protection of afci and gfci. I have had only 2 problems with afci. An old vacuum cleaner, since replaced, would trip afci. Disposal sometimes trips afci when we diddle the switch. It is nice that the lights on the breakers tell why the trip occurred- overload, gfci, or afci.
Good points,great info. Thank you Jeston.
I remember when 210.12 came into the code. The breakers were all false tripping, and the NY board of underwriters postponed enforcing 210.12 a few years, until manufacturers corrected their problem. From what I understood. All switches sockets and receptacles must be Arch fault in a residential dwelling.
Protected from the source. There is a list of exceptions. I asked the inspector, can the 1st receptacle in the circuit, be Arch fault. NO! The exception about Arch fault receptacles in my case was, I was able to install combination Arch fault/GFCI receptacles on dedicated circuits, "kitchens and bathrooms, with downstream counter receptacles, and on a dedicated outdoor receptacles circuit, where all the outdoor receptacles are controlled by the combination device at the 1st receptacle, must be labeled, indicating that the receptacle is Arch fault and GFCI Protected. Dedicated equipment is exempt. Hvac, heating systems. This was the last house I totally wired, before my health forced me to stop working. It was 10yrs ago. I remember it like yesterday. You produce awesome podcasts!
I think the exception #2 is saying you cant use a welder anywhere in a house besides the garage or bathroom.
Well, Michigan says "NAAAAH!" LOL This is what I love about being an electrician in Michigan. It is literally the only thing holding me here. If they ever were to reinstate the AFCI requirement here, I would be putting my house up for sale and moving down South.
NJ is still on NEC 2017 and while we have an AFCI requirement, thankfully it’s only for new construction. The rehab sub code omits it.
I'm going to move there just to avoid afci. 😜
@@submittedbymail there is no good reason to move here. You can’t even pump your own gas.
@@n2rj and I don't have to pump gas!🤯🤯
@@n2rj down south where???? In Alabama you still pump your gas.
I love afci breakers! I like troubleshooting and digging into a circuit then correcting it and knowing it’s 100%. Cutler hammer tan handle is the most sensitive out there. Know your customer is safe and your brand is solid!
Bro I love your videos I have learned a lot from you. Thank you for your hard work. Question, I was wondering have put your hands on the tesla powerwalls? I would like if you have, you can potentially make a video about them. How they work and wire process. Keep it up
Very well explained
New sub here 👍,may I say from I've been watching your videos,my brain is bursting with knowledge/ information
Very informative!!!!! Thanks!
At 8:45 you touched on a topic I am currently trying to research. In Dallas we have a 1979 installed StabLok FPE and live in constant daily fear of burning the house down. I am a huge fan of "overbuilding" and "futureproofing".
What logic, rationale, or code, would be violated if the home were rewired with all Dual Function OCPs, Whole Home SPD, and 10/3 w/PVC raceways throughout the home's entirety??
Currently trying to find FPE-compatible Dual Function breakers as temporary security, but no luck exists. Would love to use Dual Function breakers for the entire panel but unclear if it would pass inspection. The home was previously maintained by a foreman for a construction company and there isn't a single aspect of this home that doesn't appear to violate some code... Framing, HVAC, Plumbing, Electrical, everything is just wrong....
weird thing to ask for but do more videos of you on job site please! I enjoy it a ton and think that it makes the learning feel alot less like your in a classroom but more hands on thru video format! That’s just my opinion though so y’all don’t b mad at me 🤣 much love! (But seriously I’d really love to see anything more in depth ab where these things apply most!)
I love your videos. This one got me thinking. Should I replace one of the receptacles in my garage with a GFCI (I assume that will protect the entire circuit) If I’m running an extension cord to my driveway from the garage there’s a chance it could be exposed to water.
1:00
Parallel arc would be like a buried cable (H/N/G) sitting in water and while not having the H & N short out directly, there is resistance between the H & N causing "arc' between them which will interrupt current flow and or drop the voltage.
Series arc would be resistance in-line with the wire, usually a loose screw at a socket or loose wire nut or rodent chewing thru the N or H and semi-broke it off enough but not enough to open the line directly so as current is flowing, its "jumping" the open which would also interrupt or be a difference in current flow between H & N ..
Trip lite isobar or similat for things like old thread mills that tend to nuance trip afci. For the welders I assume the manufacturers can filter out the noise of the arc. I would think modern inverter style already do.
Awesome!! Your videos are awesome and i have been waiting for this one. Thank you very much, be safe and enjoy your time!
Dustin is the most expressive person in the industry. I almost don't need to hear his voice ti recieve his message, his face and hands say it all.
You should do a video about tap conductors and their rules
Unlike 210.12 (B) Dwelling Units, 210.12 (C) Dormitory Units includes *bathrooms* [210.12 (C)(5)]
Yeah i noticed that too. I wonder why he missed that in the video.
Thanks a lot for this video, I was just talking to myself about this very subject last week. I have an old house with 100A and am thinking to upgrade in future to 200A. So i wanted to ask, to get the best protection, should I use all the breakers AFCI and use GFCI in plugs? Or can I just use a dual function for all the breakers and then I'm covered 100%? And if that is the case then why even go the plug route? Because of cost? Thank you so for you or anyone else that sheds some light.
Am electrical technician andIs there any other electrical technician if so please contact me.I need information
Another great video
I did all the wiring for my kitchen addition and I added a upgraded main service panel to accommodate the new kitchen circuits. My old main service is a subpanel now. Anyway, I didn’t have to touch the old main panel circuits but all 9 kitchen circuits require arc fault protection. Running dishwashers, garbage disposals, toasters, fridges, etc. All new appliances. It’s a QO plug on neutral panel with QO arc fault breakers. I have had zero trips and zero problems. Junction boxes used, connections made for appliances, and pigtails all Wago Lever nuts. Maybe the older AFCI’s were problematic, especially with older equipment, or maybe people were just using dangerous arcing equipment. Will see how it holds up. But if you have relatively newer wiring (last 30-40 years) and you install a panel with all arc fault protection and stuff starts tripping, it’s time to investigate your wiring itself…because based on my experience, it ain’t the breakers. It’s mind boggling to me why people wouldn’t want these extra safety devices. I’ve literally seen buildings go up in flames from electrical fires.
We just moved into a new neighborhood. Looks like the AFCI's are trip city. Electrician has a fulltime job with the warranty replacing these things. As far as I know you can't reliably test them, so they just replace them.
8:20 sounds like Levitons smart DFCI breakers. It can can tell you which one if the 7 arc faults it tripped on for example
My guess on the arc welders is that they will no longer be able to use transformers for voltage changes as they back propagate signals. I'm scared to see how expensive that's going to be unless they are designing suppression circuits to filter the power. That may be the case given the short time frame.
Not that expensive: Very high power MOS-FETS have been available for years now that can be used to implement a switching power supply instead of a transformer. Converting the incoming power to DC would make it possible to weld with high-frequency AC, which should be interesting.
What about data closets? Also access control would hopefully fall under the same category as the fire alarm systems.
Probably not. Access control is not a fire or life safety system, and is supposed to fail safe, so if it's faulting, it's better to shut it off from a safety perspective and open the doors. At least in theory and from the perspective of code writers in a spherical cow world
the welder comment and afci had me rolling lol
I like your statement. "Why not say every room in the house." OMG laughing so hard I almost had a "moment." I laughed very HARD AT THAT POINT. We have an ARC welder. It is hugely expensive to use so we bout a gas generator for that thing to save our electric bill from making me cry.
So many things are brushless now. Not sure how many things we plug in still ARC as part of operation. I plan on being in my house probably for the rest of my life so with that in mind I tend to think everything should be AFCI and GFCI. I never even understood this as a thing until I installed the above ground salt water pool. Had to put in a PED for that. Own CI. GFIC. and did a copper "bonding ring" around the pool under the rocks and gravel.
We ran a wire to the pump, the pool heater (wood fired) and the chlorinator thinger on the PED pole for the pool power. We did put in a 20A GFIC plug. Mom said I needed one there no matter what was in my breaker box so I did it. Not sure I put the correct one in. 15,20, 25 amp. Now I need to go back and look at that.
in idaho /wyoming they only amend afcis in bedrooms but utah doesn’t amend it for any room unless wanted by customer
AFCIs and AFDDs are essentially current and voltage signal detection devices a set of transient arc-like signatures series or parallel will throw off a specific signal however that’s under ideal laboratory conditions. Loads and electromagnetic energies whether inductive, resistive capacitive or other EMIs can mimick these signatures and set them off. With better load measurement and signature capture in a home environment that uses AI software I suspect false tripping will become less of an issue. Microwaves, coffee machines are notions for setting of AFCI devices. Adding surge
Suppression can help as well to filter out false- arc like transients.
Could you some day dool a pool electricity video if you did not do so already? Thanks in advance. I am learning a lot from your videos already posted. I am binge watching them like "Star Trek Picard or Game of thrones." I have a lot to check before my chores this weekend. I might find I did some of the work wrong and have to go back and correct it. Your videos are fixing a lot of my wrong thinking.
6:55 bachelor activities. I have a drum set there too lol
Had to deal with an AFCI when removing a ceiling fan that someone wired in reverse polarity.
I had a bad experience with the first AFCI's made, they caused severe RFI buzz on all my AM radios in the house. It's good to have "safer" electrical protection of branch circuits, but.... One thing about having a Load center (CB panel) full of AFCIs and GFCIs and all the electronics in those devices consume a minute amount of electricity, add them all together and that increases your electrical usage all day long, increasing your monthly utility bill! So we are paying higher electric bills and much higher cost for breakers. just to be a little bit safer. Why can't someone come up with something that's safer and does not increase your cost?
there worthless and cause trouble anyway
That's the problem with having the manufacturers write our codes for us. There's no cost/benefit analysis being done. All the benefit goes to the manufacturers and all the cost goes to the consumer.
Ya nah Ya, we're talking a watt or 2 each. You pay for insurance? Consider it a small price in that expense column.
The simple solution for dwelling units is just manufacture main circuit breakers with afci protection and cover everything, including bathrooms, outdoor receptacles and garages. The only problem about arc fault is any device or appliance with a universal motor that has brushes that arc by design. Vacuum cleaners especially.
Hi Folks, hoping for a little bit of guidance. I saw in the code book and mentioned in this great video that if using an AFCI outlet in the beginning of the series, there are different wiring requirements. I am having trouble researching what these specific requirement are. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
Quickest info would probably be to call an electrical supply store. Now I'm speculating here, my thought is the breaker would have a neutral terminal on it so it can measure hot and return of a branch. I'm not certified, and I'm willing to be told I'm wrong, just my idea of how it might work
in the company I work for we have all outlets in the kitchen GFI protected and the lighting is AFCI protected. It seems like they would want kitchen receptacles DF protected.
I have an electrician coming to install an 20 amp circuit. I am going to buy the parts. He looked at my panel and told me to get ECMBR2 but when I looked that up it was a clip. How do I determine what breaker I need? I found one that would work that was GFCI but I want to get the basic breaker and have GFCI outlets installed. The label on the panel is a Murray.
Bought a home that had the majority of the breakers “upgraded” to AFCI… my printer would periodically trip the breaker… totally annoying… then for no reason the AFCI breaker to the refrigerator tripped while we were out of town. Threw away a lot of food that day. After that I replaced all the AFCI breakers with non AFCI. Haven’t had any issues since.
Seems AFCI are too sensitive for some appliances and electronics.
Indeed they are
In Canada, those receptacles do not need to be AFCI combi protected.
(1) kitchen counter tops
(2) fridge
(3) fire place
(4) dishwasher
(5) washroom
(6) build-in microwave
Dishwasher only if it's hardwired...
Also, not for sump pump, electric ranges, block heaters as per rule 8-400, and dryers...
@@richardwhite6702 have a question here please. Code says GFCI is required when plug is within 1.5 meter away from sink. Does this apply to 240v receptacles? And 120v 30 amp receptacle?
Dustin ---- or Anyone else want to try to answer this question?
If I'm changing out an old service/meter/main combo with house breakers, residential from 70 amp main to a 200 amp main and my local power company, Los Angeles Department of Water and Power (LADWP) is making me relocate the new service about twelve feet from the existing service location, and I'll be using the gutted, existing can as a junction box to extend the existing circuits that feed the house to reach the new location and the breakers in the new panel, would that fall under the AFCI being needed for all the existing circuits? I'm not adding any new circuits at this time, just upgrading the service combo panel.
While my neighbor was on vacation his power went out. When it came back on his AFCI breaker did not reset. His ice maker thawed out and dripped on the hardwood floor - causing a lot of damage. Is there a code compliant solution to AFCI breakers that dont reset after a power outage?
It's toast. Same with GFCI outlets that won't reset. They are designed to lock you out if there is an internal problem. I've had some fail due to voltage spikes and running on a portable generator.
We just built a house and the electrician decided to put AFCI breakers on every circuit rather than thinking. This includes a 220v outlet I specifically told him was for a welder. The sub panel has 39 breakers and is noticeably hot.
Great content some are your videos are comical and educational. I have a breaker that keeps popping when we turn on the Christmas lights. I know the lights don’t have much draw however they are on the same circuit as a reef tank which does have a large draw from a 4000gph pump as well as other filters and pumps. I wanted to upgrade the 15 amp to a 20 amp. I need to ensure that all the wires on the circuit are at least 12 gauge is there a tool that will test the load capacity of each wire without trying to trace them as the circuit goes theough 2 rooms and it would be difficult to make sure I have visually inspected each wire. Thank you
If it's a 15 amp circuit, assume that the whole thing is 14 gauge. You can't pull existing wire out of walls because it's stapled to the studs. I think the easiest thing for you is to just have a new 12 gauge line installed from your breaker box to your reef tank. Not that hard.
I welding exception is probably due to the transformer which would isolate it from the main circuit coming from the breaker correct me if I'm wrong but that's my thought I'm not a professional I'm just an 18 year old that loves electricity and engines so plz correct me if I'm wrong because with a transformer you have a completely separate circuit compared to the primary wire and the second winding so I would think it wouldn't affect it it kinda has the same principle as a coil pack on a ignition system on a car
Little confused. I am moving on to "Where Should We Be Using Dual Function Breakers?" next. Thinking we should just have them everywhere. So as we replace breakers in our old box. If there is a place I think it would be nice to have dual protection, can you just upgrade the breaker as you replace it? Looks like the cabling is going to be the same if wired to modern code. For instance... You put a portable sauna in your guest bedroom. Now you have heat and moisture in a room and dual protection upgrade on the breaker would be a nice feature if replacing the breaker anyhow. I honestly think with buildings that have sprinkler systems inside why are not all CIs dual so you have ARC and GFI? Sprinkler turns on to put our a fire while you are doing exz with a electrical device. You don't get killed by fire you get electrocuted. I think there is still something I have not caught on to yet with this subject. :D
It looks like they are expecting the very update to equipment (at least in arc welding equipment) that you said you wanted to see in the breakers themselves. In other words, the arc fault will not be detectable in the line of the arc welding equipment, no doubt because of some standard that has been improved in the circuits of that equipment. I would guess they are or will be requiring either diode, transistor and/or rectifier additions (or a pre-manufactured part including those things) to the equipment circuits.
It's better that the equipment has the arc defense in order to prevent any kind of tripping by feedback or faulty equipment. If the equipment itself shuts down without tripping the AFCI breaker, then you know your equipment is what is at fault.
Although it may not change that much from year to year, are you looking at the 2020 or the 2023 code?
what if you have a customer that has an afci breaker that powers two bedrooms. they claim that it nuisance trips, but when you go to check it out everything is working. I think the house was built in the late 90s, im not sure why there is an afci breaker in there to begin with. supposedly their neighbor replaced it for them at some point because of nuisance tripping. My plan is to switch it out with a regular single pole breaker and be done with it.
then they plug in a faulty space heater and burn down and sue you
I installed combination arc fault breakers on my aluminim wired circuits and as of 4 years none have tripped . I have seen arc fault breakers do their job which could have led to fires with a standard breaker . Of course troubleshooting can be more challanging .
Welders are essentially a transformer so I'm pretty sure that the characteristics for the power on the upstream side of the transformer would be significantly less effected if at all by arcs created on the downstream side. That said I'm not a pixie wrangler or an electrical enginerd so maybe there is some sort of voltage or current ripple that is also consistent with what is created if the circuit was homogenous and not separated by a transformer.
"We came up with this new stuff that no one really needs, and no one wants. Can you help us sell it?"
NEC "Yeah, we got you, fam. Boom, rule change. You're welcome. Where's my kickback?"
For welder...I would imagine that it requires the arc production side of the device to be internally isolated from power in. But I would imagine this is already fairly standard on most newer devices.
Modern welders, yes. But something like a Lincoln AC225 that my dad had is basically just a transformer with taps and is pretty bad. In fact in my old country the poco basically banned them.
Is there any difference with code 2023 and code 2020 with AFCI protection?
One of our AFCIs keeps tripping randomly. Usually goes 2-4 months between trips. It's been happening so long, to the point where the breaker itself is loose from so many resets.
I've messed with the outlets, trying to see if maybe there was a loose connection at one of them. And banged on parts of the walls where I believe the romex runs through. But nothing happens.
There are no big loads on the circuit. A few (2) device chargers, a small 32in smart tv, 2 light bulb fixtures on separate switches, and an extractor fan. (Circuit is connected to the bathroom across the hallway, for the fan and a light. The outlet is on the master bathroom's circuit)
We've given up for now, and just reset it when it trips. I'll probably swap the breaker with another bedroom, and see if it's the breaker itself, or something with the circuit. I've just been too lazy to do it.
The time it took you to write this post, you could have swapped the breakers already...lol
Things that will trip an AFCI breaker; vacuum cleaners, electric drills, blenders, weed whackers, basically anything with a motor that creates an arc, or sparking; motors with brushes.
first gen afci breakers perhaps
My house was built in 1994 and uses multi-wire branch circuits - everything is 12/3 and neighboring circuits share a neutral. Can these be upgraded to AFCI (presumably using two-pole 15/20AMP AFCI breakers)? Would this be wise for extra protection? I would obviously get an electrician to do it (so it would be the cost of materials + labor = ~$2K) - i'm trying to get a sense of whether this is something homeowners should be advised to spend on? More generally, I'd love to see a video on advice to homeowners with old houses; when should you get the panels changed (i have murray panels with squareD breakers), house rewired, etc ...? Great channel by the way!
In my experience, gfci or dual function will not work. The imbalance looks like a ground fault. But afci alone will work. But you probably want to get rid of the shared neutrals if you can. Only then can you use dual function breakers. Don't take my word for it. I am diy, not an electrician. But in my old house, I had a goofy shared neutral that I eventually found and removed. That was my experience. BTW I did this work with a permit.
@@MarkLawry thanks. My ahj doesn't give permits for diy, and it seems a little too big to do under the table (I. E.: Without a permit/inspection)
they make double pole AFCI and GFCI breakers, for your 12/3 and 14/3 application, but they're over $200 ea retail currently.
@@MarkLawry won't work if you try to use 2 single pole breakers.
A question concerning the bare wire that comes with bx cable.
At the service panel can you put that bare wire in the neutral/ground block?
Thanks
Leo
Check the code. It is different in the main panel vs a subpanel.
Will an old circuit breaker panel need to be upgraded before the home (condo unit) may be sold? (The old panel is Stab-Lok, which is notorious but wasn't recalled by the government.)
My laptop power supply arcs a little when i plug it in. That could tripp the breaker. Also I heard that vaccums can tripp the breaker. Basicly you will be reseting breakers all the time.
Thank you for the clear, concise explanation of AFCI modules!
It's also worth remembering that your jurisdictions adopted code might have different AFCI requirements.
For example, Oregon code doesn't give a shit about AFCI protection anywhere except for residential new construction, and even then that requirement is fairly lax compared to the NEC.
Always check your local codes, you can potentially save the customer a pretty penny
I'm still not convinced AFCI breakers actually make a home safer. I'm pretty sure it's just to force you to buy annoying snake oil. Someone was paid off for this. I've only seen arc faults in worn out power cords for portable appliances. I once thought it was an excellent idea for hair dryers and electric blankets. Then, I realized I had to reset the AFCI every time I wanted to use the outlet. It couldn't supply power constantly for a full 12 hours without tripping even when nothing was plugged into the outlet. The outlet lasted for about a year when I had to replace it. They still haven't designed a plug and play receptacle solution. Electrical wires are not meant to be messed with but once in like 10 years, but they want us to replace receptacles once a year. Even if they do work, corded blenders and such use brushed motors. I guess arcing appliances will be banned or will be forced into obsolescence. People will need to use acetylene torches if they want to weld at home.
I'll never forget a call to troubleshoot a nuisance tripping of two AFCI breakers in a brand new home. Turns out, a faulty fan in the oven...a circuit that had absolutely nothing to do with the circuits that were tripping was causing enough "noise" to trip the adjacent AFCI breakers in the panel. It was there and then I decided AFCIs we're complete junk.
Those things are so sensitive 2 or 3 of those breakers kick every time there's a big storm.
The arc of a welder is not directly connected to the branch circuit wiring. There is a power supply isolating the arc.
Another exception they need to put in place is AFCI and GFCI outlets or breakers are not required for refrigerators and sump pumps because hundreds of dollars worth of food will be ruined if either the AFCI or GFCI trips
Especially the sump pump and there's a heavy rain going on , Definitely you don't want a GFCI nor an AFCI on the sump pump
Just be sure the circuit is properly grounded
At home several years ago there was a heavy rain and the breaker for the sump pump tripped and flooded the basement , The breaker was a GFCI and I took the breaker out and replaced it with a standard breaker
Luckily my mom had flood insurance that if the basement flooded due to sump pump failure , It's covered for water damage and the cost of a disaster clean up crew to clean up the mess
Why do they require afci protection in bathrooms for dormitory units. 210.12(B)
What about if you upgrade the panel?
If you have smoke alarms do they need to be arc fault protected?
Outstanding!!
I can see that an AFCI might spot a series arc when a switch opens, or closes if the switch has severe contact bounce issues. Hopefully the AFCI is smart enough to ignore a brief series arc like from a switch while being able to still protect from a series arc from a break in the wire. One would still have to be careful plugging and unplugging a live load from the wall (would also get series arcs as the plug prongs break and make to the outlet contacts). I would imagine that the UL certification for devices would (or does?) have specifications to reduce contact break/make arcing to below AFCI detection levels. Does anyone know enough about the UL code to find this? Doesn't UL also certify the AFCI breakers? If so, it might be interesting to see the language for how an AFCI is supposed to work with different arcing situations, at least to pass UL certification.
Don't know about the specifics, but my IEC instructor was telling us this was actually a huge problem when AFCI's first hit the market and codebook, to the point where, in order to pass inspection, electricians would sometimes swap out the AFCI breakers for normal ones and hope the inspector didn't notice. They eventually re-engineered them to differentiate normal use arcing from arcing events, so you're protected from the house fire kind of arcs, but you don't have a bunch of nuisance tripping
1. Shouldn't live plug devices. Bad for the outlet and maybe having reset things someone will learn. They should be off when being plugged in.
2. It is designed to tell difference. Big thing is bounce. Ex how many times it occurs.
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Have u ever known the igniters on gas ranges to cause nuisance tripping with arc fault breakers? That little spark in the range igniter is technically an arc. It seems like it would be an appliance that would that would that would have an issue with arc fault detection. I’ve never heard of gas ranges causing arc fault nuisance tripping but it seems like it may. The igniter basically mimicking an arc fault situation.
Now do you put an AFCI on a multi branch circuit with a shared neutral ?
Can you use one of those afci/gfci receptacles at the start of a branch circuit? It would be 30 dollars cheaper than the afci breaker. What's the rule on that?
Yes you can use that and gives protection from the first receptacle downstream to other receptacles. However there is no ARC fault protection from the panel to the first receptacle for which you would need a AFCI breaker at the start of a circuit.
All older welders use a big transformer which block HF, so high frequency arc energy can't get into the feeder circuit.
Newer welders all use inverter supplies with big caps on the DC supply feeding the IGBT's, which again prevent any high freq energy of the welding arc from entering the feeder.
The ancient non-isolated carbon arc/resistor-coil welders grandpa once used are a different story....lol
most welding machines now are going to inverter style instead of transformer style. not sure how this will affect the breakers though
It is a huge headache for a contractor working in newer houses that are full of AFCI breakers. You can't plug your compressor, saw or vacuum into outlets without tripping the breaker!
Do these work with Multi branch circuits?
Are there high-amperage AFCI breakers that could be used as a main to protect the whole "dwelling" (except bathrooms and garages 😁) and would that be allowed?
that's essentially how UK "consumer units" / panels are wired, one or two larger AFCI/GFCI (they call them "AFDD/RCBO" breakers that sub to single breakers for each circuit
Regarding welders, I think the arc happens after the AC current is converted to DC in most welders, so there's an inverter and bridge rectifier and whatnot in there and perhaps the arc isn't sensed through all of that.
Anyone know for certain?
hi, apologies this question is not related but i didnt know where to go to ask and i watch you a lot so i was hoping you could give some insight. i have two rooms on the same breaker. my wife was in one of the rooms with a space heater on. the heater shut off and she told me she thought a breaker flipped. i checked, breaker did not flip, but the lights in those rooms no longer go on. i checked outlets with an outlet tester and all but two outlets have reversed their hot and ground. they have all been wired correctly for months (we moved in recently and i tested them a few months ago). why would they have flipped themselves? what should i be looking for? i shut the breaker off until i can look into it, but the breaker was a little stuck when i tried to flip it off. it went off, just not easily. now if i flip it back on and off it moves easy
Sounds like a ground fault of the live wire. Probably the wires were too thin for the heater, or just old, and the isolation deteriorated at some point.
Maybe it was the live wire, touching something metallic but not quite bonded to earth, reason for the breaker not tripping. Or the breaker is simply malfunctioning...
I'd check the wires.
@@Mr.Lycalopex thanks. i prolly should have replied earlier but the breaker (and wires) are a little old and the breaker stuck. my wife was using a space heater which should have tripped the breaker but since it was stuck it didnt trip. one of the outlets on the inside completely melted (not visible from face plate side) and ate through a neutral wire. ive replaced the breaker and the outlet and had to splice the neutral
the outlet tester showed reversed as opposed to open neutral because even though i unplugged everything i forgot that one extension cord still plugged in has those wifi outlet turner on and off thingies and so there was a small load when using the tester. removing that showed open neutral and i was able to pin down one by one which outlet was bad
I see the reason for this type of protection. If every home was wired using EMT then arc fault would not be needed. Mice make nest inside walls and chew on wires and making them bare. If the home was wired with EMT then the wires are protected. I would be more for EMT requirements than AFCI requirements. 73
Do you get any new circuit you install inspected?
What if I have nuisance tripping with a microwave oven so I make the circuit with 10 gauge and 30 amp? I should be able to avoid this requirement as the rule states all 10, 15 and 20 amp circuits.
an arc welder definitely does produce arcs but the welding output is probably reasonably well isolated from the input circuits that would/could trigger arc fault protection. Wouldn't be surprised if there were still problems but...... You are probably familiar with an isolation transformer: a ground fault on the output side probably wouldn't be detectable on the input side.... because it is "isolated". An arc fault detector might work similarly.
should have read further in the comments, already addressed by FishFind3000.