How to Play - Tony William's Grip
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- čas přidán 17. 03. 2015
- As we say in the video, this style we have dubbed the Tony William's grip on account of the fact we've never seen it explained anywhere else. The general idea behind this style can almost be seen as an emphasis on proper playing technique, with all your fingers contributing control over the stick, but then noting a bit of a twist where you do actually get sufficient if not total control over the stick from just your back fingers. It's an interesting grip, and certainly won't be for everyone, but there are situations when that snare is just screaming out to be hit hard and this grip is perfect for obliging!
- Hudba
Very good lesson. I have watched that Tony Williams video series maybe six or seven times. Yes he called any bouncing approach playing "willy nilly".
Why? He said one should play note with intention and control each note, especially fast doubles on the toms, especially the floor tom.
I tried it and love it. However i use a finger grip on the ride cymbal, especially the jazz ride pattern.
I do an exercise with the TW grip that has quarter notes on the bass drum. Then i progress with alternating hands around the kit first quarter notes (matches the bass drum), then move to 8th notes, then 16ths, then 32nds. I then back down the note value tree and end this duple exercise with quarter notes.
Finally i do the same thing with the triplet note value tree. First again quarter notes, then 8th note triplets then 16th note triplets then back down ending with quarter note triplets.
You can build amazing speed and control with the TW grip and this exercise. Thanks for reading if you did. Bill.
That's how Moeler actually held the sticks,and I saw that grip in an old book also. It's a great option for power playing.
Whoa…really?? Moeller used this grip??? I know Jim chapin recommended it for power playing for Kenny Aronoff but…that’s amazing🤯sorry, my mind’s blown right now😂
Thank you for bringing this up. I noticed it as well. The " pinky pinch" grip has been around since the Civil War. George Stone taught it for years, as did Sanford Moller
Thanks for your comment. It doesn't seem to me to have anything to do with what little I know about George L. Stone, but I'm no expert on his technique. I have played in fife and drum corps with students of Moeller in fife and drum corps and you're exactly right bout his teaching. In most of the old military drumming book from the early nineteenth century this grip, or something very close to it regularly described. It is a lovely technique, offering a wide dynamic range with very little effort.
I had drum lessons when I first started playing drums, quite late on at around 26 yrs old... I carried on for 2 years with the lessons but found that I naturally veered off to the style or technique you're showing here.
I was rehearsing live a lot in a situation whereby the bounce effect and the technique used, really didn't suit me or how I felt should work. Personal preference I suppose, but yeah, I still practice the same way today, a bit less through health reasons, I also tend to try and roll my hands over from the German style to French, keeping the rear most (3&4) fingers in contact with the sticks.
Thanks for the affirmation, I've played this way regardless of advice because it just worked for me, you know how it is, we put hours and hours in regularly to be told by someone else, you're not doing it properly, like it's never been a consideration!??
I took lessons with Tony Williams back in the early 90's, and you explained it as well as he did. It took me a bit to shake off another method I was taught that was all about rebound, but this method is simple in mechanics but to get the discipline of making every stroke, along with the control isn't simple at all. He would have me do full strokes but at tap stroke dynamics. I stopped playing for a few years and recently got back to start playing them again, and this technique is a great way to start. Thanks for the vid.
This explains right hand. How do you play traditional left hand?
@@davidbrown9395 Trad grip applying these principles: czcams.com/video/3jKNrLRK8hQ/video.html
Thanks so much for this great comment. It may seems like a small thing, but this goes a long way to confirm that this info is in the right direction and worth checking out for ourselves. All the best. Thanks !!!!
Your welcome! I see a lot of vids of drummers trying ti explain his ride cymbal technique who completely have it wrong or misunderstood, where they have the cymbal in a lower, flatter position than Tony had, and that position was very important. I sat behind the kit that he had in the practice room over at Don Sfarzo's old Drum World in San Francisco where he taught, and he literally used my arm to play the ride cymbal by holding my wrist and moving back to my shoulder and forth to the cymbal, with the grip in the back of the hand. No Moellar snap or anything of the sort. You just pulled back to where the stick almost hit you in the head at the end of the spang a lang - spang spang a LANG - to get the correct motion. It was like the hand of God using my limb to play the ride cymbal lol. Then he got behind the kit and played it for me, uptempo. He looked at me in a manner almost bored while playing it a lightning speed and said "I could do this all day". I nearly kissed him for it.@@youplusdrums
@@youplusdrums I should also mention that I took lessons with Chuck Brown a few years before I studied with Tony, who taught Terry Bozzio and David Garibaldi. That was the technique I had to "shake off", although I still use it from time to time. That method is more of releasing the fingers after the tap, almost like a open and close technique. He had me use a rubber target the size of a half dollar, a small rubber target. To this very day all my stick marks on all nine of my drums on my kit are dead center lol.
I've been reassessing my grip lately and had watched the Tony Williams clip you described. Such a coincidence you discuss it. Yep, no one else talks about it. I've been using the bouncing, two finger method and anxious to try Tony's. Thnx.
thanks for sharing. I was just watching the Tony Williams clinic and the no bounce thing bamboozled me.
Thank you immensely for posting this clearly articulated video which comes as a keen revelation having been a huge Tony Williams fan since the 70s. Studying with Tony: the mere idea is almost surreal. I wanted to back in the day but it wasn't practical to commute to the Bay Area from LA. Instead, I studied with Murray Spivak, Hank Bellson (brother of Louie), Rick Shlosser, and most influentially Dick Wilson who taught a technique very close to what is demonstrated in this video. For those who aren't familiar with Dick Wilson, he was highly regarded as the equivalent of and an alternative choice to fellow drumming technique instructor Freddie Gruber. Every week when I was arriving at Dick Wilson's circa 1976-77, the student finishing up and leaving was Tower of Power funk legend David Garibaldi; this should give you an idea of Wilson's knowledge & reputation. Tony Williams apparently understood musculature and the dynamics of motion as applied to drumming. Dick Wilson defined technique as "the ability to express oneself without a physical interruption" and taught an approach similar to that of Gruber and Spivak, based on having a proper grip (with fingering as demonstrated in this video, and palms usually facing downward, parallel with the floor) and an execution governed by economy of motion without reliance on rebound. There are two other excellent videos here on CZcams which clearly demonstrate this approach, one by Neal Sausen who studied with Gruber and is playing trad grip: czcams.com/video/3jKNrLRK8hQ/video.html, and the other by Jack Verga who studied with both Spivak and Wilson and is playing matched grip: czcams.com/video/xfhnDX90ivQ/video.html. Jack Verga also has an iBook available titled "The Essentiual Rudiments of Drumming in the Natural and Logical Order of Succession as Taught by Murray Spivak and Dick Wilson" (itunes.apple.com/us/book/essential-rudiments-drumming-in-natural-logical-order/id613552663?mt=13). In watching both the Sausen & Verga videos you will note that their approaches, as taught by Gruber, Spivak & Wilson, share in common with the Tony Williams method the relative disregard and non-incorporation of rebound. Without naming names, I will leave you with my favorite Tony Williams quote as relayed to me by a fellow drummer who spent a long day hanging out with Tony and asked him what he thought of a particular well-known and influential drummer with a reputation for playing fusion in a very mannered and controlled style: "I think it's a bunch of anal retentive white bullshit!"
That you!! In my wanderings on the internet I found several of the clips you mentioned.
I have an impression, perhaps mistaken, that this technique is not the same as the “bounce” the ball approach. There is more of a “whip “ stroke involved.
If you see this, am I on the right track?
Perfect ! Thanks a lot ! Could you do the same thing for the Tony Williams left hand ?
This form of holding the sticks dates back to the 1800s . You can see a full explanation in the book by Stanford Moeller.The Moeller Stroke. The way you explain it ,is a modified Moeller grip as applied to the cymbals.The book is published by Ludwig.Thaks, for your video on Tony
Thanks. 4:30 Your explaining "why" really makes a big difference in understanding how to practice this technique.
Really excellent description. Thanks
You've given me a whole new inspiration for my practicing! Thank you - Going back to the TW vids was a real treat - now I'm trying to find other stuff of his on CZcams and slow it down.
Same here.
Love all things Tony Williams, nice video thank you!
Thank you an excellent presentation.
Hurray! Great explanation of a way to control drum strokes. Works wonders. Ride cymbal (single leadhand) is of course another story, just like hi-hat.
Enjoyed the excellent explanation!
While Tony was a force of nature with no peers, truly superhuman & supernatural, and my alltime #1 favorite drummer, it can be fairly said that he was not roundly perfect and had deficiencies and weaknesses. Namely, there were times when he displayed a complete disregard for dynamics and musical context, playing obtrusively loud & showboating, and being inappropriate, insensitive, and distracting; additionally, his 'rock/funk' backbeat, as heard in the keyboard solo section of "Wildlife" from BELIEVE IT (1975), sounds brittle & stiff and unnatural, like a fish out of water. A similarly awkward and conspicuously inappropriate deficiency is heard at the following VSOP link beginning at 1:29 where Tony plays like the proverbial bull in a china shop with his bombastic cannonball-into-the pool approach to Freddie Hubbard's classic "Red Clay", which requires a restrained groove as Freddie introduces the main theme. Even God has his off moments! czcams.com/video/9rK-d6kwmHU/video.html
I've seen the very talented Mark Fletcher play this way, thanks for helping me make sense of it all.
Interesting...I learned to play this way naturally, mainly because I did a lot of doubles practice on pillows. Otherwise, it’s really hard to get clean doubles if you rely too much on the bounce...second stroke is quieter.
Great tutorial!
First guy i saw ever here, Who really got it! tonys grip is religious! keep goin bro
Thanks for sharing!
Awesome!! Thank you very much!!
Enjoyable and informative. You should do some playing examples on kit alongside your "usual" grip.
You are spot on, Except that he did turn his hands in a bit . Almost looks like a french grip with all the other things you mentioned. Why isn't more drummers picking up on this powefull !grip Thanks soooo much for posting this!
This is the best explanation of this grip on the internet!!, And only 70 views. I have been practising this grip since I too watched The Infamous Tony Williams CZcams Clip in which he discounts bounce. I find it is starting to work great but the double strokes rolls are very hard at first. It is not really the Moeller Method which employed more of a whipping motion generating inertia from the shoulders(whole body) Tony motivated the stick from that strong back finger grip though he capitulates when playing fast cymbal patterns. Thanks very much. very well done!!
it is a good video but a little too much much talk and not enough rock
Very good!
Like this power grip
Seems pretty good with brushes as there isn't much rebound to harness in the first place. Will try it out tomorrow on the full set.
Thanks for the lesson.
How do you do this with traditional grip? (Which Tony used alot)
I am sure than he changed his technique through the years because if you watch videos of him in the 60’s, he clearly hold his sticks between thumb and middle finger. Especially in fast tempos with 5 strokes rolls riding pattern. I am personally not a fan of the back fulcrum, I prefer to alternate between index and pinky fulcrum.
Nice presentation. That form really reminds me of the techniques employed when I was in drum and bugle corps in the 80s; 100% German grip, absolutely full contact with every finger on the stick..seemed like the speed and power were generated through fingers and arms; not a lot of wrist. Tons of speed, accuracy, and power, but looking back I can't believe I was able to play that shit. Probably because I was 18, right?
Sweet mate
when using the pinky finger grip, is your thumb flushed against the stick ?
The Moeller book describes this grip. Make sure to also watch Jim Chapin's videos. Another guy who uses this is Chris Moore.
cool!!
please to explain Tony's left hand opposed grip technique
What type of sticks do you use?
Interesting. I know the video you are referring to - thank you
I think that technique was perfect for Tony’s loud playing, but in the same time, I would not recommend it for all drummers and all occasions. It’s an old grip btw, old rudimental era, maybe even older than most of the grips widely used today. It’s strong, helps keep a good articulation but has speed limitations and doesn’t give max control. It’s very good for rock, though.
I totally disagree with you.
@@Rubenspercussao do you mind developping?
brilliant explanation..bouncing is not as accurate as playing every stroke properly..bouncing never produces equal stokes..but this method does..always..i use a similar method to tony and would much rather have fast clean doubles as opposed to bounce doubles that are not as clean great video
Hi! I also watched this video with Tonny. He also said that he is plaing every stroke with his hand not only wrist. You are showing only wrist movement. Why?
How do you play doubles this way? Worth discussing more fully...
Watch Tony's clinic on CZcams. Watch in slow motion the parts where Tony's wailing on the snare drum. There's a camera angle from the back where you can very easily see the grip very clearly from underneath. He plays all his single strokes and flams with this grip. But he switched grip to a normal thumb/index finger fulcrum to play 32nd note double strokes. It's a pretty drastic change in grip between his singles and his doubles. Hope this helps!
Nice work mate.Interesting vid.
Steve Smith also uses this grip sometimes( inspired by Tony Williams) He explains it on his DVD Drumset technique, and standing in the shoulders of giants dvd a bit too.He aligns the stroke with the rebound of the drum and for the fullest motion incorporates wrist turns like lifting a dumbbell at the gym. You might wanna check that out too if you haven't already. Cheers
Have you checked out Steve Smith's latest Pathways of Motion? I only saw a little bit. I believe he said he studied with Freddie Gruber and has accordingly changed his grip/technique drastically. It looks different to me anyways.
@@MattMusicianX Yes I have Steve's Pathway of Motion book, he uses a lot of second finger falcrum with the use of the little finger on the stick to assist in one of his grips as well as using the Tony Williams grip for loud playing.
If I am not wrong, this last-2-finger grip is adapted from Sanford Moeller who has been using this grip, just like the old American military drummer. This is mentioned in pg 4 of the Moeller book.
Exactly! And if you watch some of Jim Chapin's videos, he mostly used this grip as well.
You don’t want to be all willy nilly and hope for the best when it comes to strokes!
Excellent description! I think Tony used this in more of a French grip position though. I know I do! lol. I like the French with this fulcrum for control and power and the front fulcrum for finesse on cymbals and other nuance. cheers and thanks!
Uhh, I think Fred Hinger was using that. It became known as the hinger grip. But a modified french! In typmany the attack will beoow. The pitch fluctuates and sounds terrible. The idea is like ringing a bell! Kind of bong. It ,s a search for tone purity!
This is not called Tony Williams grip. It is more notably recognized as the little finger hold. This term was coined by Moeller and you talked about more through Jim Chapin. And I believe also that the freeing up of the thumb and forefinger of gripping the stick to let it accept the natural rebound.
how are fast and clean doubles played with this grip?
Oscar Aguirre I have the same question. And how would rudiments like drags be played if you don’t have a proper fulcrum which lends to easier bounce strokes? I can see this technique having an advantage for powerful singles though.
@@emilb And that's probably it. Can only see this grip being useful for single strokes. I use the push-pull technique when playing doubles and can achieve a fairly powerful roll on a 16" (not tight) floor tom using that technique.
Watch Tony's clinic on CZcams. Watch in slow motion the parts where Tony's wailing on the snare drum. There's a camera angle from the back where you can very easily see the grip very clearly from underneath. He plays all his single strokes and flams with this grip. But he switched grip to a normal thumb/index finger fulcrum to play 32nd note double strokes. It's a pretty drastic change in grip between his singles and his doubles. Hope this helps!
Every drummer I've seen who uses this grip really kicks ass. They sound different.
Billy Cobham plays this way as well.
Yep. Gospel guys are ripping this grip these days. Good stuff.
This is certainly not new, or rocket science either. Its origins are from the old military drummers way back. And the Great Alan Dawson emphasize on this also but with brushes.
Is it just me or does this guy look a little like a 'fair haired Gary Oldman'?
DO YOUR OWN THING - DON'T TRY TO BE LIKE SOMEONE ELSE BE YOURSELF!
Amen. But it's still useful to study the technique of the greats to help explain what made them great. And adding material to your tecnique vocabulary can give you greater variety, and thereby give you more tools to sound like yourself!
holding the sticks correctly will let you be able to do your own thing. Think of it like writing... there are ways to properly hold the pen so you can WRITE whatever you want in a relaxed comfortable way.