With Bi-generation an established concept in the modern series, I could definitely see the Valeyard as being spawned from the doctor's final regeneration wherein he bi-generates, with all the negative and dark parts of the doctor being channeled into the Valeyard.
Plus, with the Toymaker having said to have messed with the Doctor’s own timeline, who’s to say the Valeyard couldn’t form like the Meta-Crisis Doctor, but still 100% Time Lord (complete with regeneration) due to a contradictory narrative thanks to the Toymaker? Let’s not forget that the Toymaker just happened to return in the Fourteenth Doctor’s (bi-)regeneration story, and was running from “the One Who Waits”. Who’s to say that he wasn’t referring to the Valeyard, who played the long game (hehe) somewhat during the Sixth Doctor’s trial in an effort to destroy and discredit a version of his younger self?
What if after many decades, when Donna and everyone else the 14th Doctor knew has died, causing him to become cold and bitter. Perhaps even enough to bring back the Timelord Victorious. Perhaps even enough so that when he regenerates, he regenerates into The Valeyard
Personally I like to think he's like the Curator or Merlin. Like the Doctor's future is a moving target and constantly in flux. That's why 6 met the Valeyard. 6 was pretty dark so his most probable future was the Valeyard. 7's most probable was Merlin. 11 had the Curator AND Trenzalore. Not that they all have one but I feel like you can see it for a few of them.
I like your take on it. The Meta-Crisis Doctor can be an example of how the Valyard can exist as another "splinter" of him, yet not-quite-him. To be honest, other than slinging nasty looks and failing to prosecute him in court, he never had the real Doctor vibes of capability and intelligence. I haven't imbided the wine of his Big Finish incarnations, so maybe he became more capable, but it neatly fits the idea of why he takes personal interest in taking the Doctor down and getting his regenerations for himself. Yes, a very good explanation, dwfan91!
Just like what happened in the heart of the Dalek Crucible when the first Bio Meta Crisis Doctor was born mabey it might be possible to bring a meta crisis version of the Valeyad back mabey when the Tardis is once again on the brink of Destruction.
Meta Crisis would be a perfect point to start from. He like the valeyard wanted the doctors regenerations, (meta crisis is not a full timelord) Perhaps rose came to a monsterous death somewhere in the alternate universe which sent him 100% over the edge
I hope the Valeyard shows up again in New Who. It would be great to have an enemy so dangerous that both the Master and the Doctor would have to team up against. Also, If the Valeyard was born a culmination of all of the Doctor’s negative traits solidified into a single entity then I wonder if the key to defeating him would be to create a being who was the culmination of all of the Doctor’s positive traits so as to keep the Valeyard at bay for all eternity.
I say he is returning in the 60th anniversary specials played by Neil Patrick Harris cause his revel outfit was his outfit from the matrix in trail of a timelord
I have a theory that the Valeyard is related to the 10th doctor. In his final days he bacame a selfish vein monster that was so determined not to regenerate that links up with your final explanation of the valeyard's true identity. He splintered off during 10's regeneration and to further my theory i think that the 14th doctor is also an incarnation of the valeyard. But is the positive counter to the pure evil of the valeyard.
@HOTD108_ Maybe when he fell 100 feet, through a glass roof o to a marble floor and got up with nothing more serious than a few minor cuts to his suit. At least it would go some way to making that seem less ludicrous.
@HOTD108_ Maybe when he fell 100 feet, through a glass roof o to a marble floor and got up with nothing more serious than a few minor cuts to his suit. At least it would go some way to making that seem less ludicrous.
This is a good theory, but I'll take it a step further. What if the Valeyard ... is the Meta-Crisis Doctor? From everything we know, the Meta-Crisis Doctor can't regenerate. It has The Doctor's memories, and is a splinter of The Doctor, without BEING The Doctor. Maybe, as the MCD gets older, that dark side comes to the forefront, and he's bitter about not having what his progenitor has.
'He Jests At Scars' is definitely one of my Favourite Big Finish DW stories. I highly recommend it, especially for the insight that it gives to the Valeyard's character.
@dwfan91- you deserve the compliment mate, I've really enjoyed them so far. I was a little kid in the 80s(Davison was my doctor as a child) so I'm more of an original series guy but I have enjoyed parts of the new series, and unlike quite a few original series fans I like the fact they have took it in New directions, such as with having a female doctor and now a black guy
I have a theory that the Valeyard is going to be explored in Season 1 of the Disney+ Era, revealed as the One Who Waits. It would make sense for this dualistic opposite of the Doctor to be played by a drag queen, pulling on a duality of man idea. The Rani wouldn’t work nearly as well and they’ve already brought back Mel. I think it would make the most sense for the Valeyard be a byproduct of the bigeneration, a splinter off of the fourteenth doctor transforming into the fifteenth. Shedding the shadow ego if you will
That's exactly what I was thinking! The Valeyard being the bi-generation's result would make so much sense. I just hope we don't have anything as convoluted as the crack or the vault or Bad Wolf with this. I need some kind of clarity on what's going on :.(
I know all signs point to NPH being the Toymaker for the upcoming celebration. But part of me wants NPH to be a new version of the Valeyard, out to steal the Doctor's seemingly unlimited regenerations as the Timeless Child. I think that would be way to inside continuity for everyone but I'd love it.
Technically the 10th Doctors regeneration into the 11th Doctor was his final regeneration before the Time Lords granted him more lives. Could it be possible that the Valeyard was conceived then?
I know your not a big fan of Trial of a Time Lord but it's one of my all-time favorites. The Tom Baker through Sylvester McCoy series were showing on public television in America when I was a young kid back in the 80's/90's. These were my first experience with classic Who and I love them. Also, the Talons of Weng-Chiang is fantastic and I won't hear otherwise :) :). Keep up the great work.
I greatly enjoyed the *new doctor who* (2005 onwards) but i never watched ANY of the classic doctor who pre 2005. These videos are super interesting little insights into the stuff i missed out on but at the same time. it feels a shame the new series kind of just ignores all the old stuff and doesn't really bring it up or at least doesn't seem to anyway.
It's all explained in the Trial of a Time Lord. The High Council have been up to no good and correctly deduce that eventually the Doctor would uncover it. So they scan all the possible routes the Doctor's life could take after his current incarnation (The Valeyard has all the 6th Doctors memories) and pick one that is at the end of its life that embodies all his darkest impulses. They offer him all the sixth Doctors remaining lives if he can legally ensnare the Doctor. The Master has already had run ins with the Valeyard. The Master is amused that an Evil version of his nemesis exists but doesn't like the idea of a rival. So helps the Doctor defeat the Valeyard and uncover the hypocrisy of the High Council. After the battle The Valeyard steals a body and starts an existence seperate from the Doctor but still having all the memories of at least the first 6 incarnations of the Doctor.
Only problem is that the Valeyard also has knowledge of incarnations beyond the 6th. In Big Finish’s trial of the valeyard, the valeyard tells the doctor “I could tell you all about your next incarnation and all his schemes and plots(7th doc) or the one after him who cannot escape the shadow of death (8th) and trust me doctor there will be a lot of death (time war)”
1:50 I don't mean to sound rude, but you're simply misunderstanding this; It doesn't matter that we've now passed 12, as the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the Doctor's dark persona BETWEEN his twelfth and final incarnations. That is not saying "twelfth & final" are one in the same, as you know... the basis was 13 incarnations, not 12, AND they don't say "between the 12th and 13th incarnations"... its ambiguously placed sometime after David Tennant's second incarnation (War doctor is the 9th, Eccleston is 10th, Tennat is 11th and then also 12th after regenerating in The Stolen Earth). Thats all it means. Amalgamation of the Doctor's darker side collected anywhen from Matt Smiths incarnation to the Doctor’s far future death. fter all there are normally 13 incarnationsIts
11th doctor was using the black scrolls of rassilon which could tie into the creation of the valeyard somehow It's a background easter egg in the snowman, you can see it in the tardis after he's been all depressed and whatnot over being in his last life/body and over losing the ponds
You explained it very well I’m a big fan of looking back on old who villains who never made a second or third appearance. Would be the Rani explained make a good video?
I always thought it 'kind of' was. The final shot of that episode was the doctor looking at his reflection in the Tardis console and we see the Dream-lord, so he's not gone.
In my headcanon, Series 6B Troughton was asked to do something extremely evil by the Time Lords, so he went back in time and made it so that he got exiled instead of doing that tasks that the Time Lords gave to him, making him become a paradox. He then lived in the shadows until he regenerated into the Valeyard, and he slowly started fading away. (Because he was a paradox.) He then tires to kill the mainline Doctor, because if he kept existing, The Valeyard will fade out of time. That's just by theory though.
Sometimes the show doesn't stick the landing, but there are pleanty or awesome concepts they come up with in the ideas phase. I loved the idea of trial of a timelord. Haven't seen it yet, but I hear it struggled with the writers that year as the main writer passed away and others had to stick the landing. So a hard story to do justice over so many episodes.
It’s a real shame because there is some great stuff in there, especially the last episode but by not fault of its own, it simply couldn’t succeed. I for one do still enjoy it but even I as an avid 6th Doctor Defender must confess that s23 is not all that
My understanding is that the valeyard was created when the 11th doctor was given his new regeneration cycle by the time lords during The Time of the Doctor, as if you include the war doctor then the 11th doctor was the 12th incarnation of the doctor.
Soooooooo, could he then be the other DavindTennant that went off with BilliePiper at the end of the PartingOfWays episode ? The one that was grown from the cut-off hand ?
This was always a common fan theory as, alongside the release of the episode, they revealed a promo still of David Tennant wearing a Gallifreyan Outfit similar to the last one we see the Valeyard wearing. However, this is not confirmed and I doubt it to be the truth nowadays
My personal fan theory is that the Valeyard is a failed Watcher that manifested during the episode "The Waters of Mars". The 10th doctor (Who has regenerated 11 times at this point and is therefore the 12th) is at his darkest here. The Tremas master would have assumed that the Doctor only gets 13 lives, so "somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation" would mean kinda a 12.5. Basically the Valeyard would have become the Doctor if he didn't see the error of his ways as "The Time Lord Victorious". However, since he came to his senses, the Valeyard never got a chance to properly manefest as a Watcher, and so traveled back in time along his timeline to try and become an earlier form of the Doctor (the 6th) by putting him on Trial.
My head canon is that the events of Heaven Sent created the Valeyard. All those times Twelve spent dying would create a near limitless reserve of hate and anger -- what if something took all those bad feelings and personified them? Even if this isn't the case, Pantheon makes everything easier.
A parallel doctor that gave into his darker urges. Like the six doctor but he strangles perry to death. The doctor keeps trying to save the master cuz he knows he could be just like the master.
Jack's death is locked between being left behind by 9 and 10 watching Boe die in gridlock before Jack finds 10 again in Utopia. Bad wolf also causes the doctor to become a fixed event by allowing 11 to save Gallifrey creating the cracks in time leading 11 to Trenzalore, regenerating into 12. 12 convinced the first doctor to regenerate. Meaning 11 must save gallifrey to allow 1 to meet 12 to regenerate into 2, making the doctor a fixed point. This caused the Tardis to react by dropping 13 to earth as an immortal Time-lord with the ability to regenerate. - therefore imo Fugitive is the Future
in the audio books, Missy uses a rare type of forced regeneration. it's extremely painful and is the most dangerous type. she regenerated into an amalgamation of all good, (I believe she calls herself the Illuminate?) so it makes sense for the opposite to happen to the doctor at some point
I believe the character of Roger Ap Gwilliam whom is linked with the Albion Party in Ncuti's first series will be a regenerated Valeyard due to him being in a new incarnation thanks to him taking over the Keeper of the Matrix.
It would be cool to see the Valeyard in the new series. It would be nice to see the dark side of the "Doctor" meet Ncuti's Doctor who as of right now seems very upbeat and happy only to confront his dark side.
I find it a bit similar to the Warlord and the Master. Are they the same person? I'm also getting some Valeyard vibes with the upcoming specials and maybe the Ncuti doctor. The Tennent doctor shouldn't be there, it's like something has gone wrong.
I have managed to accept that Doctor was centuries Old. able to regenerate into new face and body, yet still retain past memories. Even turn up with Evil incarnation. But when he suddenly becames a She with no previous indication the Time Lords can do that, I am Sorry but totally confused now.
The problem with Doctor Who EU is that, the only portions that are accepted as canon are the adventures of the 8th Doctor, and the War Doctor (due to their lack of coverage, and references in the show). So even then things get a little wibbly wobbly
My favorite theory comes from @SimonFoston. "I don't think the Valeyard is really, actually from the future. I think the High Council were faced with a big problem after the Doctor stumbled into their Ravalox cover-up and decided not to kill him but turn him into a more useful agent who would readily do their bidding. They went through millions of projections of future projections in the Matrix, found a potential future Doctor who had developed a hard-core "ends justify the means" mentality, and made him temporarily corporeal in the present, aiming to make him a permanent replacement for the Doctor by giving him the Doctor's remaining regenerations. That never happened, and at no point did any Doctor (on the show's main timeline) become the Valeyard because he really was a separate entity, a golem created by Matrix energy."
Oddly I see the valeyard as an inverted Zagreus, that fragments of the doctor’s mind somehow merged with a more malevolent timelord. That the valeyard won, and with knowledge once known to the doctor he seeks immortality. Admittedly I don’t have that much to back it up but with the war Valeyard claiming that the part of him that is the doctor is more a mask or false-identity combined win what happened to Jackson lake. I see the idea as a real possibility. I don’t like the timeless child but endless regenerations is a good motive for an evil timelord who knows it to be real.
If they were ever going to tell this particular story, it should have been in Matt Smith's era, when it would have made sense. But given that the show has basically wiped its arse on its own canon, I suppose they may as well.
I've been a fan of Doctor Who since I was very young. My earliest tv memories are of it. That's over 40 years of it. I think the Valeyard has something to do with Trenzalore. We see them visit where the Doctor dies as a tear in reality. What if when the Doctor changes his fate on Trenzalore, that tear healed and became the Valeyard? An odd theory but what did happen to that alternative Trenzalore? I think that was the birth of the Valeyard.
Wait till I tell you my 2nd Doctor theory. It's late, I'm drunk but I'll explain it later. It explains why the 3rd Doctor speaks more about his youth on Gallifrey.
@@dwfan91- we know the 2nd Doctor gets changed into the 3rd. I think that they had the 2nd Doctor do missions for the CIA (which is mentioned onscreen I believe) and when he was nearing the end of his regeneration they trapped him on Gallifrey before earth. Not as an adult though but as a child. This is why the 3rd Doctor talks so much about growing up on Gallifrey because he did, again. They tried to change who he was growing up but failed. It would also explain why the 1st Doctor in Five Doctors doesn't recognise the Master; he didn't go to the academy with him, it was a young 3rd Doctor. Then when the Timelords found they couldn't make him grow up any different to the first time, they decided to go through with his exile on Earth.
It never explained what happened to the Great Intelligence when he jumped into the Doctors time stream. Maybe the Valeyard is a mix or the Doctor and the GI?
"Somewhere between your 12th and final incarnation" So that's between 10 after Stolen Earth and Eleven, so slap bang in the middle of that whole "Time Lord Victorious" storyline.
Shadows and devils of impossible turns in the circle of regeneration any time lord doesn't know what they'll get in a regenerate form if stable that is? A climpering moment of transformation whichever is triggered by a near death event on a level of unknown outcomes if not stabled by the tiniest bit of mind control. Only thereafter, the time lord become a new personality, and depending on the status of the regeneration process, he or she is the same only in mind but not in body, or in some cases another factor could interrupt the regeneration process like a state of flux where a deep depression of something from a mental breakdown or a imbalance from a past injured memory that could trigger a string of corruption in regeneration this would break the circle of any regeneration into a second possible regeneration. Many different versions of one-time lord from a future event to there is a possibility of different doctors from different areas in time we see them as 15 regeneration but they live in their own timelines so if one of them say somehow regenerated to soon after a major change in his timeline could this be a case of becoming a different doctor or a single different version with a darker side to his or hers natural process? Valeyard 01 and with this version a second regeneration later on different timelines, but sometimes there's an odd one out here or there?
4:54 With RTD’s new Dr. Who introducing bi-generation, I can infer than the Doctor’s last regeneration was either an accidental or forced bi-generation that created the Valeyard as well as his final incarnation.
It is possibe he may be the final incarnation of the doctor of a diff regeneration cycle. Excluding the timeless BS, the 14th is currently technically the 3rd incarnation of his new cycle
@@dwfan91-That new cycle was an inevitable necessity that kept the show going.. Plus we'd already seen it done with the Master in old who. The Timeless Child was not a remotely necessary change. They aren't comparable.
Hmm, makes me think if the same thing could happen with The Master. Could he pull off a 'Meta-Crisis' move? The Master has also had countless forms and regenerations, so who knows what he's capable of!
I think the Valeyard is still yet to exist as I don't think the timeless child is the doctor I think it's obvious it's the Master and this being is the far future doctor who like many people when you get old you regret the wasted youth
Given the Doctor can remember his encounters with the Valeyard, he cant be his future self, as in a full future incarnation. He could be part of him though obviously
Yes, maybe through bi-generation? Could we have a villainous David Tennant incoming? I hope so as David Tennant plays a brilliant villain, his turns as both Barty Crouch in Harry Potter and Kilgrave in Jessica Jones are really creepy.
@@ImCaptainCabbage I think Tennant is done for now tbh. Plus that story has been touched upon in one of the comics with a false Valeyard. I think they should cast an actor specifically for the Valeyard, not have an established incarnation break bad.
@@Look2YourLeft Ok I kind of agree, however the new doctor looked really nervous after the “bi generation” and wanted to get away quickly, like he was afraid of something. Also I don’t fully believe Tennant when he says he’s done. If he doesn’t want to come back, what’s the point of the “Bi generation” in the first place? These actors and producers like their surprises. However it’s only a theory, and you’re probably right.
I say at this point the we can pinpoint the creation of the vallyard with the episode journeys end when Donna sparked the to way meta crisis with herself and the doctor’s severed hand that got cut off in the Christmas invasion something not meant to happen and since then creation of john hurts new 9th regeneration in the 50th anniversary special due to not being able to get christopher eccleston back to play his doctor again it pushes back each regeneration where Christopher became the 10th regeneration and David became the 11th and 12th regenerations due to wasting the last time being able to regenerate on healing himself from being shot by a dalek and the meta crisis doctor acting darker in the episode does track with the valleyard and the doctor being willing to lock him away in a parallel universe with rose in fear of him would make sense with the valleyard and the parallel peat and Mickey being able to find a way back over here twice in is a safe bet thst at some point he found a way back here and got trapped here but having the tardis the doctor gave him he was able to go back in time and intergrade himself into timelord society cause of looking like a version of the doctor that hasn’t appeared yet in his regeneration cycle nobody suspected him to be created from the doctor’s severed hand cause the event hadn’t happened yet
My view has been for over a decade now, The Valeyard is The Watcher of his final incarnation The Emperor. The path of the unavoidable darkness to come. That dark fate The Doctor is so desperately trying to avoid, but knows, it's the path he journeys towards. The End of his Greek Tragedy... Or at least it would be if it wasn't for the timeless child retcons & all that cringe.
@@dwfan91- no? The Emperor, one of the possible dark futures of The Doctor from The EU. Said to be his final Incarnation. You know the one where the trauma from fighting in the War in Heaven causes him to establish himself as ruler of The Universe?
Okay what if the valeyard is associated with the pre first doctor what if he is in fact the product of the experimentation of the time lord that found the doctor at the reality gate you know if you seen flux we sent all the other versions of forced regenerations to learn the way for them to mimic what the doctor can do so they time lords don't just suffer permadeath and the watch and the valeyard both come into being then and they brought about the darkness that exists to become manifest into being long before the first doctor ever stole the tardis on the word of the impossible girl that the one he did steal was the better one we get to know
The Valeyard is a retconned story device, from the 6th Doctor's subpar era that caused the downfall of Doctor Who, the Valeyard was abandoned, never to be picked back up. The Valeyard will never return, and thankfully so.
@dwfan91- William Hartnell, Patrick Troughton, Jon Pertwee, Tom Baker, Peter Davison, Colin Baker, Sylvester McCoy, Paul McGann, John Hurt, Christopher Eccleston, David Tennant, Matt Smith, Peter Capaldi! 13 official incarnations! (no meta-crisis, Morbius, film, or 2 stage versions!) 🤔
I dont even watch Doctor Who, never seen a single episode, but you still manage to hook me on lore
For real
why did you click on the channel?
Mm
I'm not sure I'd ever have the guts to so shamelessly admit I've never watched Doctor Who to the world. What's next? Never eaten pizza? 🤣
Welcome to the Madness.
With Bi-generation an established concept in the modern series, I could definitely see the Valeyard as being spawned from the doctor's final regeneration wherein he bi-generates, with all the negative and dark parts of the doctor being channeled into the Valeyard.
I was thinking about that
Plus, with the Toymaker having said to have messed with the Doctor’s own timeline, who’s to say the Valeyard couldn’t form like the Meta-Crisis Doctor, but still 100% Time Lord (complete with regeneration) due to a contradictory narrative thanks to the Toymaker?
Let’s not forget that the Toymaker just happened to return in the Fourteenth Doctor’s (bi-)regeneration story, and was running from “the One Who Waits”. Who’s to say that he wasn’t referring to the Valeyard, who played the long game (hehe) somewhat during the Sixth Doctor’s trial in an effort to destroy and discredit a version of his younger self?
@@DCMarvel2009so could that Mrs flood be the valeyard?
What if after many decades, when Donna and everyone else the 14th Doctor knew has died, causing him to become cold and bitter. Perhaps even enough to bring back the Timelord Victorious. Perhaps even enough so that when he regenerates, he regenerates into The Valeyard
@@DCMarvel2009If The Toymaker messed with the timeline, that means we have an excuse to axe the Timeless Child shit as well.
Personally I like to think he's like the Curator or Merlin. Like the Doctor's future is a moving target and constantly in flux. That's why 6 met the Valeyard. 6 was pretty dark so his most probable future was the Valeyard. 7's most probable was Merlin. 11 had the Curator AND Trenzalore. Not that they all have one but I feel like you can see it for a few of them.
Tennants was victorious
i like that theory
I like your take on it. The Meta-Crisis Doctor can be an example of how the Valyard can exist as another "splinter" of him, yet not-quite-him. To be honest, other than slinging nasty looks and failing to prosecute him in court, he never had the real Doctor vibes of capability and intelligence. I haven't imbided the wine of his Big Finish incarnations, so maybe he became more capable, but it neatly fits the idea of why he takes personal interest in taking the Doctor down and getting his regenerations for himself. Yes, a very good explanation, dwfan91!
Just like what happened in the heart of the Dalek Crucible when the first Bio Meta Crisis Doctor was born mabey it might be possible to bring a meta crisis version of the Valeyad back mabey when the Tardis is once again on the brink of Destruction.
Meta Crisis would be a perfect point to start from. He like the valeyard wanted the doctors regenerations, (meta crisis is not a full timelord) Perhaps rose came to a monsterous death somewhere in the alternate universe which sent him 100% over the edge
I hope the Valeyard shows up again in New Who. It would be great to have an enemy so dangerous that both the Master and the Doctor would have to team up against.
Also, If the Valeyard was born a culmination of all of the Doctor’s negative traits solidified into a single entity then I wonder if the key to defeating him would be to create a being who was the culmination of all of the Doctor’s positive traits so as to keep the Valeyard at bay for all eternity.
Haven't they teamed up several times already?
Same
I say he is returning in the 60th anniversary specials played by Neil Patrick Harris cause his revel outfit was his outfit from the matrix in trail of a timelord
@@kevin10001nope, The Toymaker is returning tho
@@kennethnystrom593he hasn’t stopped regenerating though
I have a theory that the Valeyard is related to the 10th doctor. In his final days he bacame a selfish vein monster that was so determined not to regenerate that links up with your final explanation of the valeyard's true identity. He splintered off during 10's regeneration and to further my theory i think that the 14th doctor is also an incarnation of the valeyard. But is the positive counter to the pure evil of the valeyard.
Splintered off how? What caused the splintering?
psychological distress? He wanted to keep on living so it forced the regeneration to splinter? I dunno@@HOTD108_
@HOTD108_ Maybe when he fell 100 feet, through a glass roof o to a marble floor and got up with nothing more serious than a few minor cuts to his suit. At least it would go some way to making that seem less ludicrous.
@HOTD108_ Maybe when he fell 100 feet, through a glass roof o to a marble floor and got up with nothing more serious than a few minor cuts to his suit. At least it would go some way to making that seem less ludicrous.
This is a good theory, but I'll take it a step further. What if the Valeyard ... is the Meta-Crisis Doctor? From everything we know, the Meta-Crisis Doctor can't regenerate. It has The Doctor's memories, and is a splinter of The Doctor, without BEING The Doctor. Maybe, as the MCD gets older, that dark side comes to the forefront, and he's bitter about not having what his progenitor has.
Now we have bigeneration, the valeyard could be the result of that in the doctor's far future.
'He Jests At Scars' is definitely one of my Favourite Big Finish DW stories.
I highly recommend it, especially for the insight that it gives to the Valeyard's character.
Found this channel a few weeks ago and I've got to say I'm loving this series on various mysterious foes etc from doctor who, keep up the good work 👍
thank you!
@dwfan91- you deserve the compliment mate, I've really enjoyed them so far. I was a little kid in the 80s(Davison was my doctor as a child) so I'm more of an original series guy but I have enjoyed parts of the new series, and unlike quite a few original series fans I like the fact they have took it in New directions, such as with having a female doctor and now a black guy
@@swfcocs1 I’m the same minus the born in the 80s part. I first watched dr who with the VHSes so a bit later
I have a theory that the Valeyard is going to be explored in Season 1 of the Disney+ Era, revealed as the One Who Waits. It would make sense for this dualistic opposite of the Doctor to be played by a drag queen, pulling on a duality of man idea. The Rani wouldn’t work nearly as well and they’ve already brought back Mel. I think it would make the most sense for the Valeyard be a byproduct of the bigeneration, a splinter off of the fourteenth doctor transforming into the fifteenth. Shedding the shadow ego if you will
That's exactly what I was thinking! The Valeyard being the bi-generation's result would make so much sense. I just hope we don't have anything as convoluted as the crack or the vault or Bad Wolf with this. I need some kind of clarity on what's going on :.(
@@anon1728 it seems like that’s something the production team is well aware of, hopefully it tracks through into the next series!
New Who isn't canon.
@@PatGunn Lmao then stop watching the show and don’t complain- canon isn’t real in Doctor Who, it’s a joke and your life is a joke
Or the one who waits is Sutech... 🤣👍
I know all signs point to NPH being the Toymaker for the upcoming celebration. But part of me wants NPH to be a new version of the Valeyard, out to steal the Doctor's seemingly unlimited regenerations as the Timeless Child. I think that would be way to inside continuity for everyone but I'd love it.
same
I still believe he will be the vallyard cause his revel photo has him looking like the vallyard’s disguise from the matrix in a trial of a timelord
Technically the 10th Doctors regeneration into the 11th Doctor was his final regeneration before the Time Lords granted him more lives. Could it be possible that the Valeyard was conceived then?
That's what makes it so tricky, there have been multiple 'twelfth' incarnations
According to The Timeless Children, The Doctor has always had infinite regenerations, so 10 into 11 was not the final regeneration at all.
@@HOTD108_ bro stole my pfp
@@HOTD108_ I think the timelords limited his regens to the standard amount though
I expect to see Valeyard in the newest season, dark Doctor who comming.....
Well shit now with bigeneration with one doctor holding onto all his pain and another leaving it behind this could work
RIP Valeyard. He passed away today Feb. 5th, 2024.
Hey you are one of my favourite CZcamsrs and I love most of your videos
most?🥲
@@dwfan91-😢*all
Did I say most I meant all of them!
I know your not a big fan of Trial of a Time Lord but it's one of my all-time favorites. The Tom Baker through Sylvester McCoy series were showing on public television in America when I was a young kid back in the 80's/90's. These were my first experience with classic Who and I love them. Also, the Talons of Weng-Chiang is fantastic and I won't hear otherwise :) :). Keep up the great work.
I greatly enjoyed the *new doctor who* (2005 onwards) but i never watched ANY of the classic doctor who pre 2005. These videos are super interesting little insights into the stuff i missed out on but at the same time. it feels a shame the new series kind of just ignores all the old stuff and doesn't really bring it up or at least doesn't seem to anyway.
It's all explained in the Trial of a Time Lord. The High Council have been up to no good and correctly deduce that eventually the Doctor would uncover it. So they scan all the possible routes the Doctor's life could take after his current incarnation (The Valeyard has all the 6th Doctors memories) and pick one that is at the end of its life that embodies all his darkest impulses. They offer him all the sixth Doctors remaining lives if he can legally ensnare the Doctor. The Master has already had run ins with the Valeyard. The Master is amused that an Evil version of his nemesis exists but doesn't like the idea of a rival. So helps the Doctor defeat the Valeyard and uncover the hypocrisy of the High Council. After the battle The Valeyard steals a body and starts an existence seperate from the Doctor but still having all the memories of at least the first 6 incarnations of the Doctor.
Only problem is that the Valeyard also has knowledge of incarnations beyond the 6th. In Big Finish’s trial of the valeyard, the valeyard tells the doctor “I could tell you all about your next incarnation and all his schemes and plots(7th doc) or the one after him who cannot escape the shadow of death (8th) and trust me doctor there will be a lot of death (time war)”
The Shedinja comparison was on point lol, great video.
I knew someone would get it, W my friend
1:50 I don't mean to sound rude, but you're simply misunderstanding this;
It doesn't matter that we've now passed 12, as the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the Doctor's dark persona BETWEEN his twelfth and final incarnations. That is not saying "twelfth & final" are one in the same, as you know... the basis was 13 incarnations, not 12, AND they don't say "between the 12th and 13th incarnations"... its ambiguously placed sometime after David Tennant's second incarnation (War doctor is the 9th, Eccleston is 10th, Tennat is 11th and then also 12th after regenerating in The Stolen Earth).
Thats all it means. Amalgamation of the Doctor's darker side collected anywhen from Matt Smiths incarnation to the Doctor’s far future death.
fter all there are normally 13 incarnationsIts
Having just watched "The Giggle", you might be right.
So, is Valeyard the one who waits? After watching most recent episode, it seems legit.
So...is the Valeyard the result of Bigeneration
11th doctor was using the black scrolls of rassilon which could tie into the creation of the valeyard somehow
It's a background easter egg in the snowman, you can see it in the tardis after he's been all depressed and whatnot over being in his last life/body and over losing the ponds
You explained it very well I’m a big fan of looking back on old who villains who never made a second or third appearance. Would be the Rani explained make a good video?
I’ll put it on the list
Ive always heard the valeyard in comment sections and never knew what it was until now thanks for the video
Crazy I love this channel bringing dr who to the mainstream
Was the dream-Lord supposed to be an interation of the valeyard?
I always thought it 'kind of' was. The final shot of that episode was the doctor looking at his reflection in the Tardis console and we see the Dream-lord, so he's not gone.
In my headcanon, Series 6B Troughton was asked to do something extremely evil by the Time Lords, so he went back in time and made it so that he got exiled instead of doing that tasks that the Time Lords gave to him, making him become a paradox. He then lived in the shadows until he regenerated into the Valeyard, and he slowly started fading away. (Because he was a paradox.) He then tires to kill the mainline Doctor, because if he kept existing, The Valeyard will fade out of time. That's just by theory though.
Sometimes the show doesn't stick the landing, but there are pleanty or awesome concepts they come up with in the ideas phase. I loved the idea of trial of a timelord. Haven't seen it yet, but I hear it struggled with the writers that year as the main writer passed away and others had to stick the landing. So a hard story to do justice over so many episodes.
It’s a real shame because there is some great stuff in there, especially the last episode but by not fault of its own, it simply couldn’t succeed. I for one do still enjoy it but even I as an avid 6th Doctor Defender must confess that s23 is not all that
My understanding is that the valeyard was created when the 11th doctor was given his new regeneration cycle by the time lords during The Time of the Doctor, as if you include the war doctor then the 11th doctor was the 12th incarnation of the doctor.
he was actually the 13th due to the journeys end retcon
Welp you cracked the code 😂 looking like the final doctor bi generates the valeyard
Soooooooo, could he then be the other DavindTennant that went off with BilliePiper at the end of the PartingOfWays episode ? The one that was grown from the cut-off hand ?
This was always a common fan theory as, alongside the release of the episode, they revealed a promo still of David Tennant wearing a Gallifreyan Outfit similar to the last one we see the Valeyard wearing. However, this is not confirmed and I doubt it to be the truth nowadays
My personal fan theory is that the Valeyard is a failed Watcher that manifested during the episode "The Waters of Mars".
The 10th doctor (Who has regenerated 11 times at this point and is therefore the 12th) is at his darkest here. The Tremas master would have assumed that the Doctor only gets 13 lives, so "somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation" would mean kinda a 12.5.
Basically the Valeyard would have become the Doctor if he didn't see the error of his ways as "The Time Lord Victorious". However, since he came to his senses, the Valeyard never got a chance to properly manefest as a Watcher, and so traveled back in time along his timeline to try and become an earlier form of the Doctor (the 6th) by putting him on Trial.
4:55-5:13 After watching The Giggle this exact description sounds awfully familiar doesn't it?
Soooo, twelfth doctor regeneration was too quick that its like a pressure burst of energy that spawned as Valeyard
I might not watch Dr. Who, but your videos are really interesting and well made
thank you!
My head canon is that the events of Heaven Sent created the Valeyard. All those times Twelve spent dying would create a near limitless reserve of hate and anger -- what if something took all those bad feelings and personified them?
Even if this isn't the case, Pantheon makes everything easier.
A parallel doctor that gave into his darker urges. Like the six doctor but he strangles perry to death. The doctor keeps trying to save the master cuz he knows he could be just like the master.
It’s like Star Trek where there were 2 Kirks: Good Kirk & Evil Kirk. Then add bigeneration & you have the Valeyard.
I imagine the Valeyard is an alternate version of the 11th Doctor who left Trenzalore to rot. The Great Intelligence did namedrop him after all.
With the new Bigeneration that just happened, do you think that the 14th Doctor might become the Valeyard at some point?
Jack's death is locked between being left behind by 9 and 10 watching Boe die in gridlock before Jack finds 10 again in Utopia.
Bad wolf also causes the doctor to become a fixed event by allowing 11 to save Gallifrey creating the cracks in time leading 11 to Trenzalore, regenerating into 12.
12 convinced the first doctor to regenerate.
Meaning 11 must save gallifrey to allow 1 to meet 12 to regenerate into 2, making the doctor a fixed point.
This caused the Tardis to react by dropping 13 to earth as an immortal Time-lord with the ability to regenerate. - therefore imo Fugitive is the Future
My view is that the tenth doctor regenerates an extra time in Journeys End because the Valeyard is who he would have become otherwise.
Clearly, the valley yard is the most recent doctor.
in the audio books, Missy uses a rare type of forced regeneration. it's extremely painful and is the most dangerous type. she regenerated into an amalgamation of all good, (I believe she calls herself the Illuminate?) so it makes sense for the opposite to happen to the doctor at some point
I believe the character of Roger Ap Gwilliam whom is linked with the Albion Party in Ncuti's first series will be a regenerated Valeyard due to him being in a new incarnation thanks to him taking over the Keeper of the Matrix.
It would be cool to see the Valeyard in the new series. It would be nice to see the dark side of the "Doctor" meet Ncuti's Doctor who as of right now seems very upbeat and happy only to confront his dark side.
wow almost 2k subs already! Congrats Man!
I find it a bit similar to the Warlord and the Master. Are they the same person? I'm also getting some Valeyard vibes with the upcoming specials and maybe the Ncuti doctor. The Tennent doctor shouldn't be there, it's like something has gone wrong.
Another amazing video ! Actually didn't know anything about the Valeyard before this, just that he was mysterious...Keep up the good work ! :))
Thank you!
I used to think he was the half human doctor that was sent to the other universe it grew old and it turned out to have at least one regeneration
I have managed to accept that Doctor was centuries Old. able to regenerate into new face and body, yet still retain past memories. Even turn up with Evil incarnation. But when he suddenly becames a She with no previous indication the Time Lords can do that, I am Sorry but totally confused now.
The problem with Doctor Who EU is that, the only portions that are accepted as canon are the adventures of the 8th Doctor, and the War Doctor (due to their lack of coverage, and references in the show). So even then things get a little wibbly wobbly
My favorite theory comes from @SimonFoston.
"I don't think the Valeyard is really, actually from the future. I think the High Council were faced with a big problem after the Doctor stumbled into their Ravalox cover-up and decided not to kill him but turn him into a more useful agent who would readily do their bidding. They went through millions of projections of future projections in the Matrix, found a potential future Doctor who had developed a hard-core "ends justify the means" mentality, and made him temporarily corporeal in the present, aiming to make him a permanent replacement for the Doctor by giving him the Doctor's remaining regenerations. That never happened, and at no point did any Doctor (on the show's main timeline) become the Valeyard because he really was a separate entity, a golem created by Matrix energy."
Great theory
Oddly I see the valeyard as an inverted Zagreus, that fragments of the doctor’s mind somehow merged with a more malevolent timelord. That the valeyard won, and with knowledge once known to the doctor he seeks immortality.
Admittedly I don’t have that much to back it up but with the war Valeyard claiming that the part of him that is the doctor is more a mask or false-identity combined win what happened to Jackson lake. I see the idea as a real possibility.
I don’t like the timeless child but endless regenerations is a good motive for an evil timelord who knows it to be real.
I don't think I've been on a channel without a profile picture that isn't an arg in years
The Valeyard is an awesome villain who really must return asap
If they were ever going to tell this particular story, it should have been in Matt Smith's era, when it would have made sense. But given that the show has basically wiped its arse on its own canon, I suppose they may as well.
I've been a fan of Doctor Who since I was very young. My earliest tv memories are of it. That's over 40 years of it. I think the Valeyard has something to do with Trenzalore. We see them visit where the Doctor dies as a tear in reality. What if when the Doctor changes his fate on Trenzalore, that tear healed and became the Valeyard? An odd theory but what did happen to that alternative Trenzalore? I think that was the birth of the Valeyard.
that would be really cool
Wait till I tell you my 2nd Doctor theory. It's late, I'm drunk but I'll explain it later. It explains why the 3rd Doctor speaks more about his youth on Gallifrey.
@@dwfan91- we know the 2nd Doctor gets changed into the 3rd. I think that they had the 2nd Doctor do missions for the CIA (which is mentioned onscreen I believe) and when he was nearing the end of his regeneration they trapped him on Gallifrey before earth. Not as an adult though but as a child. This is why the 3rd Doctor talks so much about growing up on Gallifrey because he did, again. They tried to change who he was growing up but failed. It would also explain why the 1st Doctor in Five Doctors doesn't recognise the Master; he didn't go to the academy with him, it was a young 3rd Doctor. Then when the Timelords found they couldn't make him grow up any different to the first time, they decided to go through with his exile on Earth.
It never explained what happened to the Great Intelligence when he jumped into the Doctors time stream. Maybe the Valeyard is a mix or the Doctor and the GI?
He's a future regeneration of Tennant's 14th split Doctor...
Deep regrets as he walks of with Donna - And the inclusion of Mel both in The Giggle.. 😉👍
soundtrack in your video is from the movie itself?
i never watched Dr. Who, so idk
Yes
@@dwfan91- amazing sound
"Somewhere between your 12th and final incarnation"
So that's between 10 after Stolen Earth and Eleven, so slap bang in the middle of that whole "Time Lord Victorious" storyline.
I know the Valeyard! That face I will not let come back again
So seems kinda like the meta crisis doctor ?
There's a common fan theory that they might be one in the same
4:55 sorry to come back to this so late... but could it link to the bigeneration?
Another banger from DWfan91.
Thank you🫡
He's what the watcher became.
Shadows and devils of impossible turns in the circle of regeneration any time lord doesn't know what they'll get in a regenerate form if stable that is? A climpering moment of transformation whichever is triggered by a near death event on a level of unknown outcomes if not stabled by the tiniest bit of mind control. Only thereafter, the time lord become a new personality, and depending on the status of the regeneration process, he or she is the same only in mind but not in body, or in some cases another factor could interrupt the regeneration process like a state of flux where a deep depression of something from a mental breakdown or a imbalance from a past injured memory that could trigger a string of corruption in regeneration this would break the circle of any regeneration into a second possible regeneration.
Many different versions of one-time lord from a future event to there is a possibility of different doctors from different areas in time we see them as 15 regeneration but they live in their own timelines so if one of them say somehow regenerated to soon after a major change in his timeline could this be a case of becoming a different doctor or a single different version with a darker side to his or hers natural process? Valeyard 01 and with this version a second regeneration later on different timelines, but sometimes there's an odd one out here or there?
Is this the same as what happened yesterday with the doc the bi regeneration .
Omg after watching the giggles this makes soooo much sense 🤯
Heya DWFAN. I’d love to create you an intro for your videos! Is there anywhere to contact you?
@@dwfan91- sent you a request! My @ is somefredguy
I think the recent Bi-Generation seals this as fact. The Doctor at some point bi-generates again and this one is a bad dude
The Valeyard is a nightmare.
Bro is BACK with another banger. LEEEEEEEEEEEEETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 🤾
you're a goat
@@dwfan91- 🪞
The Valeyard is The Doctor's equivalent of "Onslaught"from X-Men, thr dark sides of Charles Xavier and Magneto merged.
Sounds a lot like bi-regeneration
4:54 With RTD’s new Dr. Who introducing bi-generation, I can infer than the Doctor’s last regeneration was either an accidental or forced bi-generation that created the Valeyard as well as his final incarnation.
He is the Doctor
It is possibe he may be the final incarnation of the doctor of a diff regeneration cycle. Excluding the timeless BS, the 14th is currently technically the 3rd incarnation of his new cycle
I like how there being a different regeneration cycle you can accept but the timeless child no thats too far😂
@@dwfan91-That new cycle was an inevitable necessity that kept the show going.. Plus we'd already seen it done with the Master in old who. The Timeless Child was not a remotely necessary change. They aren't comparable.
Criminally underrated channel. My man get a CZcams user pic 😂
Hmm, makes me think if the same thing could happen with The Master.
Could he pull off a 'Meta-Crisis' move?
The Master has also had countless forms and regenerations, so who knows what he's capable of!
in the EU it's called the Lumiat
The Bi-Generation opens up possibilities of the VALEYARD
I think the Valeyard is still yet to exist as I don't think the timeless child is the doctor I think it's obvious it's the Master and this being is the far future doctor who like many people when you get old you regret the wasted youth
Given the Doctor can remember his encounters with the Valeyard, he cant be his future self, as in a full future incarnation. He could be part of him though obviously
Yes, maybe through bi-generation? Could we have a villainous David Tennant incoming? I hope so as David Tennant plays a brilliant villain, his turns as both Barty Crouch in Harry Potter and Kilgrave in Jessica Jones are really creepy.
@@ImCaptainCabbage I think Tennant is done for now tbh. Plus that story has been touched upon in one of the comics with a false Valeyard. I think they should cast an actor specifically for the Valeyard, not have an established incarnation break bad.
@@Look2YourLeft
Ok I kind of agree, however the new doctor looked really nervous after the “bi generation” and wanted to get away quickly, like he was afraid of something. Also I don’t fully believe Tennant when he says he’s done. If he doesn’t want to come back, what’s the point of the “Bi generation” in the first place? These actors and producers like their surprises. However it’s only a theory, and you’re probably right.
It's David Tennant this Christmas... 😉🤣
My 2 questions are who was the lady at the end of time, and why couldn't the doctor save Adric.
I say at this point the we can pinpoint the creation of the vallyard with the episode journeys end when Donna sparked the to way meta crisis with herself and the doctor’s severed hand that got cut off in the Christmas invasion something not meant to happen and since then creation of john hurts new 9th regeneration in the 50th anniversary special due to not being able to get christopher eccleston back to play his doctor again it pushes back each regeneration where Christopher became the 10th regeneration and David became the 11th and 12th regenerations due to wasting the last time being able to regenerate on healing himself from being shot by a dalek and the meta crisis doctor acting darker in the episode does track with the valleyard and the doctor being willing to lock him away in a parallel universe with rose in fear of him would make sense with the valleyard and the parallel peat and Mickey being able to find a way back over here twice in is a safe bet thst at some point he found a way back here and got trapped here but having the tardis the doctor gave him he was able to go back in time and intergrade himself into timelord society cause of looking like a version of the doctor that hasn’t appeared yet in his regeneration cycle nobody suspected him to be created from the doctor’s severed hand cause the event hadn’t happened yet
He's a Branch off from the doctor
The dream Lord is the valley yard
I think the question of who is the valeyard is incorrect.
What is the valeyard i believe is a more appropiate question 😮
My view has been for over a decade now, The Valeyard is The Watcher of his final incarnation The Emperor. The path of the unavoidable darkness to come. That dark fate The Doctor is so desperately trying to avoid, but knows, it's the path he journeys towards. The End of his Greek Tragedy... Or at least it would be if it wasn't for the timeless child retcons & all that cringe.
The Emperor? From Star Wars?
@@dwfan91- no? The Emperor, one of the possible dark futures of The Doctor from The EU. Said to be his final Incarnation. You know the one where the trauma from fighting in the War in Heaven causes him to establish himself as ruler of The Universe?
@@thechazz3230 Neat theory but in the Trial of the Valeyard I think the Valeyard confirms hes not a Watcher
Osea que valeyard fue la primera encarnacion separada antes del 15.
can 'The One Who Waits' be the Valeyard?
The Doctor's penis detached during 12's regeneration & grew into the Valeyard. Continuity solved.
Okay what if the valeyard is associated with the pre first doctor what if he is in fact the product of the experimentation of the time lord that found the doctor at the reality gate you know if you seen flux we sent all the other versions of forced regenerations to learn the way for them to mimic what the doctor can do so they time lords don't just suffer permadeath and the watch and the valeyard both come into being then and they brought about the darkness that exists to become manifest into being long before the first doctor ever stole the tardis on the word of the impossible girl that the one he did steal was the better one we get to know
The Valeyard is a retconned story device, from the 6th Doctor's subpar era that caused the downfall of Doctor Who, the Valeyard was abandoned, never to be picked back up. The Valeyard will never return, and thankfully so.
And it was made only worse by the Timeless Child…
Well you’re wrong cause he is returning in the 60th anniversary specials played by Neil Patrick Harris
@@kevin10001 isn’t it supposed to be rumored that Neil Patrick Harris will play the Toymaker?
Will you ever change from a default profile pic?
The Doctor can only Regenerate 12 times!
Meaning only 13 incarnations!
Which means Capaldi was the last Doctor!
🤔
You’ve miscounted, Peter Capaldi was the first Doctor of the second regeneration cycle, Matt Smith was the 13th incarnation.
@dwfan91- William Hartnell, Patrick Troughton, Jon Pertwee, Tom Baker, Peter Davison, Colin Baker, Sylvester McCoy, Paul McGann, John Hurt, Christopher Eccleston, David Tennant, Matt Smith, Peter Capaldi!
13 official incarnations!
(no meta-crisis, Morbius, film, or 2 stage versions!)
🤔