Weird Border: Is this Germany or the Netherlands?
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- čas přidán 3. 02. 2023
- Between the Dutch province of Groningen and the German region of Ostfriesland lies a mysterious area. It's the place where the river Ems flows into the sea - and the place that causes a border dispute between both countries that's going on for years. Because nobody knows if this place is actually Dutch or German.
A film by Matthias Schwarzer.
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Intro Music:
MÆT - Start Again
Music:
Epidemic Sound
#Netherlands #Germany #Dollard #borders #border #Geography
Thanks for watching! Here‘s more you might like:
▪Why the Netherlands have a Biking Culture (and other Countries don't): czcams.com/video/1JUq0vFDuTU/video.html
▪ The sad last Days of a German Ghost Town: czcams.com/video/WWBgCnRwGqc/video.html
▪ How a small German Village killed Google Street View: czcams.com/video/rSlDT7WpIj8/video.html
Great video
you had me worried there the first 10 seconds of this video neighbor, im very attached to my bike xD
This is a really good question.🤔
Is it Germany or Netherlands? Nobody cares, because it's clean on either sides.
Reminds me of the whiskey wars. Ask if you want to know. Hint Denmark and Canada
International law has a well documented way to find out if a place is Dutch or German:
1. From the disputed area find the nearest snack car
2. Check the cheapest meat item
3. If it is a kroket the place is part of The Netherlands
4. If it is Currywurst the place is German
(:
Agreed. (German speaking here lol)
I think the frikandel is cheaper
If it's Döner, it's also German.
@@xaverlustig3581 If it is Döner, go to the next snack car and repeat step 2 - 4.
It's worth to mention how the conflict was resolved. Both sides agreed on a line of responsibility that basically follows the Dutch interpretation of the border while leaving room for the four wind turbines that were built in Dutch waters (according to the exact interpretation of the Dutch border). With that agreement in place it really doesn't matter anymore where the border between Germany and the Netherlands runs.
I heard some funny stories from people from the Dutch water board from long ago regarding the Ems (Eems) estuary. All kinds of beacons for shipping had different colors in Germany and the Netherlands back then. They were painted over and over by both countries to get them in their national prescribed colors. Over and over again. One day in Dutch colors, next month the Germans painted them over in German colors, two months later the Dutch painted them over, etc. etc.
Funny story. And solved the right way
True, I grew up on these waters learning how to sail. As a kid I just thought nobody cared about the rules I had learned about the buoys, it was only later when I sailed on different waters that I realized the rules were actually functioning in other places. Haven't been there for a long time, so I don't know if it's still the case or not.
Reminds me of the whisky wars between Canada and Denmark, that were "fought" for more than 40 years, until a peace treaty finally has been signed in 2022: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whisky_War
@@berndbrotify I was gonna post this... It has to be the funniest border "dispute" ever!!!
r/place lol
Born in The Netherlands decades ago, I was always interested in geography. But this is a "conflict" I never even knew it existed. Thank you for your very interesting video, I love it!
Look into the planned annexations of some parts of Germany after the war.
Some small areas where actually annexed by the Dutch at first, but later returned to Germany.
Local trucking companies used that to their advantage.
They basically parked a bunch of trucks there on the night it was changing hand. Because they didn't bring any goods in (they were already there as it was annexed after all) they got away without paying tariff
The good thing is that within the EU borders are sheer administration and border disputes have basically become anecdotes that won't lead to war anymore. I live in Eastern Belgium, a 20/30 minute drive to the borders with both Germany and Luxembourg. I commonly happen to not even pay attention to which country I'm in.
I'm old enough to remember growing up with two wallets, one in each back pocket of my pants: left was Belgium, right was the Netherlands. Each wallet contained one country's currency, train or bus tickets, vouchers for discounts at the local supermarkets etc. I lived in rural Belgium but went to school in the Netherlands as my education was paid for by my father's employer over there (I was technically a refugee, you see). Life may be easier now but for me it was a great adventure!
@@ixlnxs everyone stuck in Belgium is a refugee. Have you seen those roads.
Surely moving out of Belgium would be noticable by a improvement of road conditions?
I think you pay attention when crossing the border since the roads suddenly get so much better ;)
@@rey_nemaattori Oh no, the difference in road quality was (and still is) less big between Holland and Belgium than within Belgium between Flanders and Wallonia. Though lots of other stuff is better in Wallonia than in Flanders, and that includes the people.
The clear difference between Holland and Belgium is not so much the road is what is (or isn't) built by the roadside.
Fascinating. I'm Dutch but I had no idea about this dispute.
We have the same with the Bodensee. There are no clearly defined borders so it just turned into a “meh, whatever”.
@@obinator9065 Lake Constance for English speakers. if you cannot build a home there, meh, what does it matter anyways. The question is to whom you pay your tax.
@@obinator9065 Lake Constance is slightly different. There is no disagreement there, all sides agree to not define a border.
@@ppd3bw The borders _in the lake_ aren't clearly defined. Where you buy your house is.
Thank you Matthias for this video. My mother’s parents were Ostfrieslanders. I have only seen old black and white grainy pictures of their farm near Aurich before now. I have never been there. I was told it was green, flat, and lush farming country. You fulfilled my wish of seeing some of Ostfriesland. Thank you.
DE: Fuck it?
NL: Fuck it.
Drink!
Wat zullen we drinken, seven dagen lang? .....ask for a friend ;)
In the more southern border area there are many conflicts where people live in Dutch houses but the road outside of their house is in Germany - In the time of Covid when each country had different Covid lock down rules people could leave their houses but not leave their gardens .
Sound interesting, which city is that?
@@MatthiasSchwarzerEnglish I don't know about the German-Dutch border. But close to where I live on the Dutch-Belgium border we have Baarle-Nassau where this is very much the case. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baarle-Nassau
Probably in the Aachen region? We have streets here, one side dutch the other german. Including roundabouts :D not sure about dutch houses at german streets though. If you visit the area, send me message, I can give you a tour
@@MatthiasSchwarzerEnglish I heard the same stories from the german Selfkant area near Sittard (NL). The region from Sittard to Vaals near Aachen has very open borders where Germans and Dutch cross many times a day for traveling to/from their jobs.
@@MatthiasSchwarzerEnglish Also, at the border area Coevorden/Emlicheim is a rather new 'industriegebiet' called 'Europark'.
Some company are in NL, others in D. For example, EVI abfallverwertunng is in both country's. Strange thing: i was several times at a sand und kies grube am Brusselse weg/Brockdiek with my truck. It's only 50 meters in Germany. But: in The Netherlands is totall load max 50 tons, in Germany 40 tons. So, i have to load 10 tons less, but 50 meters further is 10 tons more allowed! No Dutch trucks do that, always 'illegal' loading 50 tons total....
I was an American living in northern and northwestern Germany for a few years in the mid 2000's. At one point, I accidentally wound up in the Netherlands without even meaning to, because the border wasn't clearly delineated where I was. And I don't mean I was like a meter over the border, I was actually over a kilometer into the Netherlands before I figured it out. Honestly gave me a bit of a scare, because I had a German visa but nothing for the Netherlands. I didn't know what the laws regarding that were at the time (while EU members can cross into other member countries requirement-free, that's not always the case for non-EU citizens who have a visa for a specific EU member). I decided I'd better get back over the border before I found out the answer to that question.
As an American nothing bad would have happen to you. Worst case dutch police would have driven you to the German border and waved you goodbye.
The other way round would have been worse as German police like harping on about some dumb shit.
even back then, if you had a visa for one EU country you could travel in ALL EU countries, that is part of the Schengen agreement.
@@Jacob-W-5570 Only of he had a Schengen Visa. There are still national visas that are not valid in other Schengen countries
Wait till the Brexiteers find out about the Etias visa coming in next year 2024 😮
Too bad the Dutch police did not find you .... they would have given you directions, or even a lift, to where you needed to go !
I regularly sail the Ems area. German customs and border patrol vessels are keeping distance from the Dutch coast and only patrol the northern stretch of the Ems, between Emden and Borkum. So at least it looks like everyone is sticking to the Dutch border line in daily practice.
Which is as the contract specifies. The border is in de middle, but exceptions can be negotiated when it comes to built infrastructure such as cables, pipes and wind turbines.
@@therealdutchidiot The border is in the middle according to the Dutch, but the Germans draw the line near the Dutch coast. That's what this dispute is all about.
@@RoaldKoger While that's technically true, tthe contract follows the Dutch reasoning.
I live in Appingedam and didn't know this. Good video!
I think it's an advance in civilization when you can no longer tell where one country ends and another begins....
I recall a similar situation with Lake Constance serving as the German/Swiss/Austrian border without any clear lines ever having been established.
The disused gas station is quite obvious... it was built there right around the border when there were still border checks (the green structure is a remainder of the roof that used to be there) and currency exchanges. When the borders opened and both countries started to use the euro, it became kind of pointless.
Also a tip for Dutch pronunciation: u = ö or ü and oe = u
Yes! The green structure always makes me nostalgic even though I'm so glad we no longer have border checks... Also, I spotted a sign saying 'Bunde Rij' at the service station. Probably a bilingual pun - Dutch boerderij 'farm' is pronounced basically as German 'Bunde reih'. The Dutch name for Bunde is Bonde, so it wouldn't work without German. Love it!
But aren't German gas prices much more favorable than Dutch ones?
@@Nynke_K yeah... so glad we dont have borderchecks anymore... now criminals can just drive to france, buy a gun, drive back unchecked... and the illegal firework terrorism each year that goes unchecked because open borders... real great
Lived many years just 15 Km from the Dollard area . I didn’t had a clue about this conflict . I’m sure it wasn’t mentioned at any school I went . Very interesting. Thanks for the effort you put in this and all your other videos .Never to old to learn .
I live nearby. In the dollart, Dutch villages were engulfed in that storm centuries ago. remnants of all those swallowed-up villages will therefore very much lie under that silt on the bottom. I think a border can be found here if they start taking to look at old maps.
Wasn't the IJsselmeer only created by a major storm in about the 1200s? Crazy to think of such major geographical features can form in such a short period.
@@andyjay729 je bedoelt Zuiderzee...IJSSELMEER is pas ontstaan na sluiting van Afsluitdijk
the Dollard existed at the time those Holy Roman Empire grants to Ostfriesland were made, and those villages already drowned. there is a complicated map with dates for it and for filling parts of it is here: nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollard
Being born in Delfzijl almost 30 years ago and still living in that region, I've always been thinking that the border was simply in the middle because that would make the most sense. Basically: The Ems and Dollard belongs to both of us.
Moi eem mede Groninger
This was a great video. Thanks for making it!
I've heard a lot of jokes about how telephone companies had to eventually stop sending messages to people that cross borders, due to the complaints they received from people who live on towns and have to use roads that straddle the border of one country or another. Must've been so frustrating receiving texts that you've now entered a another country just to overtake a car or go to the shops.
They still send them
Same on the border of NI and South of Ireland 😂
With my hometown being partially on the screen when you showed the map, it's really interesting to hear about something this close to me that I had no clue about
Awesome video man. Hopefully you get bigger!
I was there just a couple of days ago. I really love the area. The bird watching station that can be seen in the background a couple of times is called Kiekkaaste, which in Groningen dialect means looking box or looking closet (in German Uhrenbox or Guckenschrank?? My German is terrible, so that's more of a guess).
Also, you missed a very little known fact about the Dutch/German border. You did catch it on video though, 3:17 to be precise. It's easy to miss, but there you can see the round stairway is not exactly a circle, but it has a flat spot. After the pedestrian overpass was built, with stairs on both ends, it turned out that the stairs (that are Dutch) one one side where +/- 20cm across the border. When they found out about that a part of the stairs was cut off and made so that it would no longer be above German territory. So, not all disputes can be solved by contract ;)
Ik denk dat ze over de grens "Kiekkaaste" ook prima verstaan (ik woon veel verder naar het zuiden in Duitsland en in het dialect hier zeggen ze ook "kiekn"). Ik zou het als "Kuckkästchen" vertalen.
The gas station thing is likely a leftover from the time when the borders were not so free to cross. It was a place to transition from one place to another passing through border security.
No, that gas station was build after the border security went from that place to mobile teams. just 200 meters away from the gas station (on the junction where trucks are forced to drive into Germany to get to the Dutch village (Nieuweschans) is a much cheaper self serving diesel station, build at the same time. (on a small business plant that was never well developed because of corruption among legislators in the nearby town of Winschoten, who (by contract had a say in the development) and were selling and developing their own industrial area.
the border running along the motorway also happens on the final section of the german A3 right before it connects up to the dutch A12
I find your videos very interesting and informative. Thank you
Not agreeing a border is sometimes a good thing. In the Belgian/Dutch town of Baarle Nassau / Baarle Hertog they DO have a border, but maybe they shouldn't have had one. Individual houses and streets have a border around them. Some belong in The Netherlands and some belong in Belgium. There are even buildings with the border running right through them. During covid people were allowed to buy products on some shelves but not on others because different country rules. Look it up ;)
I visited it during Covid and can say that the rules were enforced very pragmatically: Belgian license plates were not bothered driving in and out of Baarle as long as we didn't go beyond it. Dutch cars were only stopped at the "real" border (Zondereigen and the like), not at the exclaves. Walkers and cyclists could go as far as 10 kms if they wanted to.
I lived for a year in Ostfriesland when I was in high school. I’ve been back many times. Your video was a welcome surprise for both its spoken and visual content.
Eine großartige Lösung zwischen zwei Bruderländern. Nicht umsonst singen wir in unserer Nationalhymne "Wilhelmus van Nassouwe, ich bin deutschen Blutes" :-)
Lul niet zo dom
My German is too crap so I’ll reply in English. “Van Duitsen bloed” very likely does not refer to German blood. Back in the late 16th century when the song was written the term “Nederland” had only just come into being and the term “Duitsch” still commonly referred to the country that we today call the Netherlands. Now, William of Orange was actually born in a place which is part of Germany these days, but it is quite unlikely that “van Duitsen bloed” was meant to specifically refer to what we call Germany.
@@wich1 I'm not going to argue about this on CZcams. I believe that Germany is indeed meant here. Let's just say we agree to disagree.
@@bertkassing8541 of course, it is perfectly fine to disagree, I didn’t mean to make it an argument
"Duitse blood" was in the 16 century understood as German AS WELL as Dutch. 😎
Nice Video. I am originally from Emden and was aware of this. A few years ago Google Maps had a bug and suddenly the Dutch German Border ran through the harbour of emden :) The story was pickt up by the north german state tv and made it as a small national news item. Since then there is no Border Line on google maps anymore :)
can't believe I have more subs than you. You're super underrated. Awesome vid
I think a similar situation is in the Flensburger Förde (Flensburg Fjord) with the Ochseninseln (Ox Islands).
Video topic idea; how that weird border protrusion came to be, from NL Denekamp and GER Nordhorn.
New channel! Really good Q!
The end of ww2 would have been a great opportunity for the Dutch government to fix the border in the middle. But they were probably preoccupied with rebuilding the country.
You have it wrong they planned annexation till Hamburg.Bakker Schut Plan.
@@igorbrille8222But it was clear very quickly that the allies would not agree with that. And the Netherlands got only a few very small areas of germany, which it later sold back to Germany again. But at both times they could have pushed to solve this border issue. They probably didn't because at that time there was no direct economic interest.
Wow, I recently visited that part of The Netherlands and would never have guessed it was that complicated.
it WAS complicated, not anymore if you watched the video
A similar situation exists with the Bodensee (lake Konstanz) between Germany, Switzerland and Austria.
Thats close to my home Town Woldendorp (Groningen, the Netherlands).
Fun fact about the border. In some parts in the Netherlands the german fire departement is the second engine to respons because the stations are closer toghether then a Dutch station.
It’s not, regular Germans and Dutch don’t care. It’s usually officials and companies that stir up silly stuff like this.
The Bodensee aka Lake Constance between Germany and Switzerland and Austria has similar situation but in triplicate.
You also have Baarle-Nassau here the border Belgium and the Netherlands is in this town.
Met Baarle Hertog, inderdaad. Ook is er nog iets met een annexatie van een Duits dorpje na WO II dat later teruggegeven is en wat weer lastig was met een weg daarlangs. In België heb je nog de Vennbahn, ook zeer apart
watched your first video now, and you got my sub. intresting vlog . and im from the netherlands. nice video
I can feel @thetimtraveller vibes here :). Keep up good work!
Underrated youtube channel!
There's a road in Belgium right at the Luxembourgish borders with plenty of gas stations in Luxemnourgish territory.
I was raised in Termunten and as a little boy used to swim in de Eems. To find out in 2023 that i learned how to swim in Germany.
Another borderdispute is between Rottemeroog and Borkum. Rottemeroog is slowly moving east.
Is the dutch border then moving east, or does it become Germany?
yeah same with Schiermonnikoog slowly moving east from Frieland into Groningen...
@@hugoimthorn There was already an issue with that a while ago (about 20-15 y): the eastern tip of Schier had extended into Groningen, which meant that formally emergency services had to come from Groningen instead of from Schiermonnikoog. You'd think that that would be something that'd never happen, but there were a lot of day trips by "huifkar" on the island toward that tip, so it was a serious concern. It was solved by adjusting the border, and Friesland paying a certain sum to Groningen to account for changes in government funds allocated on the base of land surface (if I remember correctly).
Moot point. Borkum is protected against erosion so will stay where it is and not move east, so Rottumeroog will wash away in the tidal flows west of Borkum.
I'dd like to add that we had quite some challenge in making up-to date maps for maritime transport because the devide where the dutch maps end and the german maps begin and because of some differences in the mapping of buoys in the Ems. There is also some physical murkyness in which country is responsible for which buoy, bet the fairway there isnt that dynamic and generally deep enough. The Dutch did claim more agency over the fairway to improve clarity for vessels in and outbound from the Eemshaven (Port of Groningen) and port of Delfzijl. Especially needed as the Eemshaven has expanded significantly. (source; its my job :) )
Very interesting. Never heard of this. But good it has been solved, as I would expect from 2 civilized countries.
Keep up the good video's man
Very good video. THANK YOU
In the Lake of Konstanz the three Bordering Country’s just agreed to not make a Border.
To be precise, you can never be precise measuring a line between a land mass and another land mass/ocean. It all depends on you resolution of measurement, and the higher the resolution the longer the line. (The coastline paradox is the counter-intuitive observation that the coastline of a landmass does not have a well-defined length.)
You should absolutely come to Lake Constance some time. Two countries not agreeing on a border is outright boring, we have three not agreeing down here. And while you're at it, be sure to take a little detour to the Büsingen enclave.
I live in a border town in Poland. That looks like an old pre-Schengen crossing that got mothballed to me, but just a guess.
I really like the way Matthias pronounces the name 'Bert Koenders'. :-)
Its high quality content I think, why isn't this guy popular? I like him anyways... Also, you're German right? I think I recognize the (I think German) accent, here in the Netherlands the accent is like they're still speaking Dutch but they're using the English words...
Well, borders are always fluid (and disputed), especially if the border is a river. The area of the Netherlands that I'm from was part of the Austrian Netherlands, then the French Republic, then the French Empire, then the United Kingdom of the Netherlands, then the Kingdom of Belgium, then a duchy in a personal union with the Dutch crown but part of the German League, and finally a province of the Kingdom of the Netherlands - all this in the space of just over 70 years. it was never a part of the French puppet state the Kingdom of Holland, but the area in your video was fully part of it, including Ostfriesland. So that's where the Dutch viewpoint comes from.
Limburg, then?
@@ixlnxs Yup!
For people that particularly enjoyed this story, they might want to check out the "Whiskey War" between Danmark and Canada. Interestingly enough it's the Russian invasion of Ukraine that cause the former two countries to finally sign the end of "hostilities" over the little island.
Very wel made video
Matthias, for some reason I am thinking I have seen this same video also last year..... Is this a new upload or something?
I made a new channel just for English videos and am re-uploading some stuff. ;-)
Thought the same thing.
Nice video. Greetings from the Netherlands
I just hope that when someone's in distress in this area, it's clear whose coast guard needs to come to the rescue. Although perhaps it's best if both do : )
This goes to show how ridiculous borders are. Ask Mother Nature. She'd probably just shrug and say, "What're you talking about?"
The romans made always tried to make easy borders. In africa the border was the desser in europe first the alps and later the nile and so on
I also had no idea of this watery border, i do know that there are even houses which are in both countries. So you are for example in Germany when you are in the kitchen and in the Netherlands when you are in the living room....
Die Autobahn, die erwähnt wurde, ist die A280, die von der Anschlussstelle Jemgum A31 abgeht Richtung Groningen.
Sehr interessant und gut gemachtes Video.
Very fascinating
Lake Constance is a similar case
Maybe it's time for the Netherlands and Germany to reclaim the Dollard, straighten the Eems and then use the middle of the "new" river/canal as the border marker. We get to build new villages on both sides, get fertile lands and both go away happy.
Cool video! Liked it and subscripted to your channel. Keep up the good work!
The Dutch shortly considered resolving the conflict by military force but then realized that the only tanks that they have are leased from Germany.
Nice video! I myself live right next to winschoten btw
Hellow, nice video, interesting and also quite fun to hear.
That's so great. "You want it, but we also want it. So like, can't we both just agree to use the area and ask eachother when we want to do something big? K, thanks"
Ich dacht eben.... warum hab ich kein Abo??! Aber wie es scheint, hast du die Kanäle sprachlich getrennt? Muss man erstmal drauf kommen :D
Isn't this the second time you uploaded this?
Since the Netherlands defected 1648 from the "heiliges römisches Reich deutscher Nation", things got a bit weird.
So, I thought. Let's see what google maps has to say about the border. Seems the border runs just east of the river "Westerwolde Aa" but doesn't show how it continues in the water. Ah, well, borders are sooo 20th century.
My initial reaction about the lack of a clear border was; "lekker belangrijk !". It is 2023 and we share our armies .... Happy to see the conclusion of your video is also just that !
kneus
Hi Matthias, Check mal die Grenzsituation entlang der alten Vennbahn bei Roetgen in der Eifel. Auch völlig abgefahren und sicher einen "Ausflug" wert.
Danke dir für deine interessanten Videos!!!
Oh yes, Matthias, well worth a visit but don't forget your bicycle because the entire border is a bike path, no cars allowed.
Is this a rerelease i'm sure I saw a video like this a year ago almost precisly the same .
Yes, I made a new channel besides my German one, only for English speaking videos. ;-)
reupload it is.
One day you must do an episode on the Caprivi Strip
:-)
In the Metz region there are places where you drive one way down a street and you are in France, then when you drive the other way down the same street you are in Germany, the border runs down the middle of the street.
Perfect! The whole world should be like that, nobody knows where the borders are.
Matthias my wife and I are heading to Germany in July. What would you recommend the best places? Luv the channel by the way. Danke schön Frau!
The Friesian Island archipelago is very interesting and now split between Denmark, Germany and the Netherlands.
Also because the islands are slowly moving east.
i was stationed in Germany near the Dutch border in the 70s & loved every second of it.BTW love your post
Germany does the same thing with Switzerland and Austria at Lake Constance/Konstanz. None of them can decide where the borders should be so the lake is considered Terra Nullius.
all in all its a weird situation because if you look at the map you would consider Borkum dutch since its north of groningen.
Well, it is kind of east from where the Ems would have had its estuary if there were no Dollard or Wadden sea.
You are funny and I learn something every time 😎
This area is basically my backyard. Never knew there was a border dispute.
Moresnet, for almost a century, was a Dutch-Prussian, and then Belgian-German condominium. Although the NL never officially renounced its claim.
Some fun anecdotes about that one.
The most interesting issue about the border is the Groningen gas field. It stretches a bit in the Dollart. The gas in the Dollart has perhaps a value of tenth or hundred million €. How is this dispute managed?
"So where is the border?"
*waves hand vaguely*
I hope you're aware that the Groningen gas field extends beneath the Ems estuary into German waters. As I understand it, a percentage of gas production is allocated to each country - regularly recalculated based on production figures from wells in the area.
The border between Canada and the US barely noticeable, a cut line through the forest or a line of rock cairns is often the only distinguishing feature.
You have to pay German gas prices at that fuel station, guess Dutchies don't mind paying less for fuel.
Netherlands: The border should just be in the middle of the river, it is the easiest and most common sense solution, not that it matters much.
Germany: I HAVE A 500 YEAR OLD LETTER FROM THE EMPEROR WHICH SAYS THAT THE RIVER IS ALL MINE! NOW GET YOUR FILTHY WOODEN SHOES OUT OF MY PRISTINE GERMAN RIVER WATER!