A Critical Analysis of Helm's Deep as a Fortress - Lord of The Rings
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- čas přidán 6. 04. 2021
- Helm's Deep, the fortress of Rohan, which was featured in the most epic battle scene yet made during the Lord of the Rings The Two Towers, is designed terribly. It is a great example of doing everything, or very close to everything wrong.
From a strategic and historical point of view, this fortress makes multiple mistakes that prevent it from being formidable in any way. Honestly, with all of these flaws, Saruman didn't need to use fire to induce stone to bring down the walls. They practically go down on their own.
In today's video, i will break down all of these major weaknesses, and explain why i believe that this fortress is so poorly designed. This analysis is based entirely on the depiction and use of this fortress as shown in The Peter Jackson film, The Two Towers. Many of the points i make during this video are not accurate in regards to the depiction of this fortress in the books. - Zábava
"A horn that would require industrial sized blowers" *Gimli has entered the chat*
Yea gets me every time to think about Gimlis massive Lungs to get this tone out of it XD I one played a tuba and my breath lasted for 1 whole second XD
Yeah there's ghosts of the dead, witch kings on dragons but you can't have a horn that disregards the laws of physics!
@@RennieAsh your god damn right you are! Horns have to obey the law!
@@miracufelix Stop Lawbreaker!!!
@@RennieAshI don’t usually like this logic, as it can lead to a lot of stupid arguments, but dangit. As long as it’s plausible.
It should be noted, and probably has been, that a lot of these flaws are created by the way the movie chose to depict the fortress. Tolkien describes it as being much closer to the head of the valley with an outer perimiter at Helm's Dyke as well as the deeping wall being used to prevent an attacker moving to surround the fortress on three sides. It should also be noted that in the books the fortress is not undermanned, they even have enough forces to partially man the dyke.
So true the dike is missing in the movie
Not to speak of, there were no Elves ;)
Noooo... it is rubbish in the book and the film representation is very accurate. All the fortifications are not good.
@@justinmorgan2126 shut up kid. the movie is garbage. the book is the source material.
@@justinmorgan2126 you can say it is rubbish in the book, but the film representation isn't accurate.
And the original commenter presents SOME of the reasons it isn't, citing description in the book, while you just say "yeah it's accurate" without supporting that claim.
Rohan is cavalry force.They keep their horses behind Deeping Walls not inside the Keep. Also it protects the caves which is directly behind it.
👍 🏇🏇🏇
"at least they had a staircase suitable for shield surfing" that on got me :D
It is the single best defensive fortification in the Jackson designed Hornburg.
A few pieces of criticism: helms deep was actually more strategically placed than you think. During the time period both helms deep and Isengard were owned by Gondor, they were sister forts protecting the gap of Rohan, and Gondor’s western border. Of course, in Lotr saruman owns Isengard and is opposed to Rohan, so dunlendings could just cross through from Isengard… which they did.
Also, the deeping wall protected the glittering caves, and as you had mentioned 2 minutes ago, this was where the population of Rohan would retreat to in case of an invasion. The purpose of helms deep, by the time of lotr was to house the population of Rohan if any major large scale invasion were to happen.
The gate: yes, it should have a drawbridge and moat, I completely agree. But either this was an extended edition scene or you just forgot, the rohirrim did bar the gate with timber.
Merlons: I’m 90% sure helms deep was built by the dwarves, but I may be wrong. However, if I’m correct, that means the merlons were fine at the time of the construction, as gimli complains about being unable to see the Uruk hai. Of course, the rohirrim absolutely should have made them taller.
Gate part two electric boogaloo: yeah okay helms deep deserved that roasting. Not having the second gate was a mistake.
The horn: don’t insult helm hammerhand’s horn. That’s a very important part of rohirric history that I’m too lazy to go into, this comment is already long enough. I’d recommend looking helm hanmerhand up though.
Helm's Deep was originally constructed by the men of Gondor, long before the people who would eventually be known as the Rohirrim lived in that area, Dwarves never inhabited that area until Gimli would lead a group there to colonize the glittering caves after the war of the ring.
As for the situation with Isengard, yes, i know that the idea was that a fortress on each opposing end of the Gap would provide a defense against incursion, my only real issue with that logic is the vast amount of land between the two, and the fact that orcs don't typically come to siege and conquer, but to raid, so this type of defense would not work as well against them.
As for barring the gate, yes, they nail some fresh boards on, and brace it with timbers once the Uruks have already smashed through with their ram, but that is all too little too late. If that was your one and only gate and you needed to rely on it to keep the hoards out, you would build in semi permanent supports and reinforce it to imitate a wall.
I also get the idea of the horn of Helm Hammerhand, and think its bad ass. I'm just saying, thats a lot of resources to devote to something that serves little to no strategic advantage when leaving the rest of the fortress very poorly defended.
About the wall, in the books, it says that the parapets were high enough so that only tall men could see over them.
Also, in the books, there is a second wall, like you theorized at 5:00.
@@ParryThis in books have second wall
@@ParryThis the idea was to counter hostile men of Miniriath and Edenwaith (Dunlandings) also if they had a cavalry force they could easily intercept the land in the middle of the two (in Tolkien’s world cavalry forces can go long distances as seen in Simirillion)
Yeah, the Deeping Wall makes more sense in the books where the entrance to the Glittering Caves is actually behind _it_ rather than being accessed via the keep as it is in the movie. It'd actually interesting to see you react to the design of the Hornburg as sketched by Tolkien himself, as well as the version from the Tolkien atlas that I believe is based on that sketch. It's not perfect, but it has a few features that make more sense than the films. The Uruks never get through the gate, for one, except right at the end by blowing it up with another bomb.
Just looked it up, and you're right. The fortress is protected by two walls, it's a little bit away from the mountain walls and on top of a hill, the river actually goes right alongside most of the hill the fortress is on, and the deeping wall is clearly only meant to protect the entrance to the glittering caves, not the fortress. Still no drawbridge and still the weak point in the deeping wall from the river though. :P
@@Sanquinity Other things worth noting, I think; the inner wall of the fortress is a complete circle rather than a semi-circle buried into the cliff at both ends; the Deeping Wall is almost parallel to the causeway, and the rear gate is exactly (or almost so) opposite the main gate; the Burg, the tower that holds the Horn itself, is the keep of the fortress, surrounded by both walls, rather than being a narrow tower attached to the outer wall, and thus there's no main hall buried into the rock.
I also looked it up. That's actually a pretty sweet fortress. I understand why they did what they did for the movie, and it looks great, but Tolkien's Helms deep is clearly superior
@@DirtyDan77 It does still have some issues, but those could mostly be chalked up to the layout of the terrain they had to work with. The no draw bridge thing though, that was definitely an oversight from Tolkien. :P
The Deeping Wall in the movie would make sense if it was used to hold back water. lots of water. ad a nice stockpile of something like oil and this setup would be near perfect to annihilate a besieging army. the weaknesses then would serve as the honey on the trap...
Your first point is a little flawed, according to Tolkien lore, Gondor use to own the Rohan region including isengard but gave Rohan to the men coming from the north. Since Helms Deep is technically a Gondorian fortress, it makes sense that it is stone, also in the movie they did add timber to the doors to the Hornburg
I wasn't saying that it being made of stone was a flaw, i was simply pointing out that if it were an Anglo Saxon fort, it wouldn't look like this, architecturally speaking.
@@ParryThis I didn't say that you said this was a flaw, I'm saying it wouldnt really matter by design since the design was from another "nation" if you will. Think of it like a British 1700 army taking over an Ottoman Empire fortress for example, its just there already they would adapt to it but yeah the point I'm trying to make...
@@elvinarcher He didn't say that you said that he said it was a flaw ...LOL
@@daylinlott5723 which I literally just said, I didn't say that he said that was a flaw, you just made this super confusing now haha
@@elvinarcher I know ...it was just a crime of oppty on my part lol
If I remember correctly Helm's Deep is what is called a "Fluchtburg" in my german mothertongue - I don't know whether there is an english equivalent or whether google translate rather came up with a blunt literal translation when it put out "escape castle" (edit: meanwhile I learned that the correct english translation is _"refuge castle"_ - which despite being pretty obvious didn't occur to me for some reason).
However - this type of fortress was neither intended to control an area nor as a permanent home for a lord, but as a temporary refuge in case of a superior enemy approaching. Civilians as well as military units could flee there and wait until their country's main force would have pushed out the enemy and the countryside being save again, or reliving them in case of a siege.
Such fortresses had been in use in reality:
For instance the slavic tribes who settled the east of modern germany which previously had been abandoned by the local germanic tribes during the migration period employed this concept in the early medival era (Eventually the east of Germany got occupied by german crusaders in the 13th century and german settlers followed on foot - but the slavic sorbs and wends managed to preserverve their distinct language, culture and identity to this day and are officially recognized as Germany's only autochtone minority, with for example bilingual public signs and schools in their home regions as well as their own media.)
They set up circular walls made of soil and wood, surrounded by a trench and with palisades on top all over their tribal territories to keep their non-combatants and lifestock who would have been extremly vulnerable in their scattered homes and small farms save during hostile raids while their warriors would fend off the enemy.
The remains of said "fleeing fortresses" are still visible to this day - mostly from above because the flora differs slightly where wall and trench once had been located, but sometimes there even are very eroded circular traces left of the wall/trench as such. One of these fortresses got reconstructed a few years ago on its original location in the german state of Brandenburg (the search term "Slawenburg Raddusch" will bring up images in case you are interested).
I might be wrong, but I think to remember that Helm's Deep served the same purpose - which would defeat some initial points of your criticism.
Helm's Deep's weird additional wall which supposedly would have little purpose in case of a "regular castle" could serve as a somewhat save enclosure for the lifestock (in case of Rohan mostly horses probably - and in this context the little creek suddenly makes sense) while the civilians and some accompanying military units would occupy the actual fortress.
I don't mean to claim that Helm's Deep is a perfect design - I just think you might have misunderstood its purpose and the way it's employed.
I imagine it as a left-over from a time when military campaigns weren't yet about total annihilation or defeat/permanent occupation but rather looting expeditions based on a "hit and run" approach - the enemy would rather plunder settlements and steal lifestock instead of trying to break the walls of a fortress filled with farmers and peasants for the most part.
It's not about being invincible but rather not being worth the effort - a good comparison might be a concerned home owner's _panic room:_
In case of an intruder the house's inhabitants can flee there and lock themselves in - it doesn't prevent the intruder from freely roaming the house and steal whatever valuables he likes best, but the inhabitants are save for the moment and can wait until help arrives or the culprit has left. The average home intruder wouldn't have the means to break such a panic room to begin with, but even if he had it wouldn't be worth the time and effort which could be put to better use by collecting loot and getting away before the authorities arrive.
At bottom line one could say that such refuge castles were nothing but inflated panic rooms, serving precisely the same purpose on a tribal scale.
I'm pretty fascinated by this idea and found that the concept is pretty unknown nowadays even within medival and/or fantasy enthusiast communities although it's interesting and actually a pretty obvious idea.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refuge_castle
@@MrCosinuus
Thanks for your addition! Coincidentally the very same reconstructed _refuge castle_ I was referring to in my initial comment gets shown in the article's introduction - the slavic castle Raddusch in Lusatia, a region which is named after the western slavic tribe of the lusatians to this day ("Lausitz" derived from "Lusitzi")!
Well, actually I should have figured out to look up the german term in wikipedia and change to the associated english article in order to learn it's english equivalent all by myself..
I can't remember whether I just had been too lazy - maybe I'm just stupid. 😅
Thanks again and greetings from Berlin!
@@kai_plays_khomus So spät noch wach? Husch ins Bettchen ;)
For context: Unfortunatly the comment I replied to isn't visible here appearently. Peter Peterson posted an english Wikipedia link about the *_refuge castle_* concept:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refuge_castle
Not quite. The men of Gondor didn't build Helm's Deep as a place of refuge. It was used in conjunction with Isengard as military posts to control the region near what was later known as the Gap of Rohan. They later _gave_ the keep to the people of Rohan who used it in several instances as a place of refuge for people in the western parts of Rohan. Note that people in the eastern parts of Rohan would use Dunharrow as a place of refuge.
In the book it is said that helms deep was built by the Numenorians, Not Rohan, the Rohirrim simply took control of it when the land was given to them. also considering its position, and Isengard, and you take into account that this was the northern borders of Gondor they were perfectly strategically placed. Isengard would guard the northern section of Rohan while helms deep would guard the southern like two Guard towers on either side of the gap of Rohan protecting Gondors northern borders.
Gondor should have been able to build gatehouses! Minas Tirith lacks one too.
@@mindstalk True, but originally it was never meant to be an actual city, it was only meant to be a secret place where the kings would be buried. When they eventually converted it into the new capital city, they already had the great wall around it, and in front of that the old capital city of Osgiliath. so I suppose it was almost impossible that any enemy would get that close to it. It was mostly just a show of defence, although in truth it never actually said there was no Gatehouse. At least in the books. It’s simply said the Great doors were blasted open. It never said there wasn’t a portcullis that could not be brought down.
Yeah this video is Bush league
Helm's Deep is an old fortress of Gondor, perhaps even of Numenor. It was positioned, along with Isengard, to control the Gap of Rohan.
It was occupied and adapted by Rohan.
This hits a lot of the same points I made in my video of the Two Towers film. Although, it should be noted that Tolkien placed the caves in the valley and not the fortress itself. The back staircase acted as an escape route to the caves where all their women, children, and provisions remained. The deeping wall protecting the caves between fortress and mountain. That's why in the book, it was so important for Saruman to seige the deeping wall. If Rohan loses the wall, they lose EVERYTHING.
Also, there's a staircase from Deeping wall to the first wall. So if the orcs do take the wall, they'd have another access, but through a choke point.
Great point about building another wall between the front, using the river as a natural moat. props on that observation!
Also, I think it should be noted that main gates door was built so securely during production that the bodybuilders playing orcs, couldn't break it down, so it needed to be physically weakened for filming. Just thought that was pretty cool trivia.
and I do agree Theoden over emphasized his forces to the wall, instead of his fortress. Aragorn also didn't help matters much by arbitrary sending all the elves to slaughter instead of leading a fighting retreat. The battle has tons of issues, but it's still my all time favorite.
In defense of the Deeping Wall. It supports the Glittering Caves, where the civilians find refuge. Its essentially protecting the civilian population while the Keep houses and is a basis of operation for the military as they defend the civilians. Including the ability to launch cavalry charges over the field behind the wall if it was ever breached.
But yeah, the rest of this makes sense haha
On a historic (middle earth history) note, people have thought that it started as little more then a scouting outpost for Nonminor (before Gondor) that was turned into a fortress by Rohan. And Rohan is a poor nation that was given the area for their service by Gondor. A kingdom of horse lords, not stone masons. It would make some sense they wouldn't have the money, or expertise to upgrade it much beyond provisions, repairs, and maybe that wall to protect the Glittering Caves.
When Gimli comes back to rule over the glittering caves with a colony of dwarves, i'm 100% sure they upgraded its defenses ha
An entertaining analysis, I may say. It was rather enjoyable and definitely not boring. I am going to watch all of your videos in time.
Just wanted to mention something about the first point on the location of Helm's Deep. In ancient years where it belonged to Gondor along with Isengard, it was supposed to guard the Gap of Rohan from western invaders. It was an important "must-have" for Saruman in order to freely deploy Dunledings and other Men from the western borders of Rohan in Rohan. If he can't control both of these fortresses (Isengard & Helm's Deep), he can't effectively control the Gap.
Yeah, that makes sense, looking at the map. Having control of both fortresses, effectively gives you a powerful redundancy if one is threatened, so it would work effectively as a gate for the gap.
@@ParryThis also in the books there are more fortifications
You forgot to add that the deeping wall has staircase on it to the keep and appears to have one behind it leading to the crucial horn tower. Which might have doors, but the hefty sheep price on timber might have been too much for.
Those are two solid points that i did in fact forget to mention.
The simple reason for this is, that in Book it was differently schemed. In fact I loosely remember to have all things you mentioned was here. I think there was some sort of wall or barricade around valley. I believe there was reasoning for that outer wall to be protecting their water source as well as those caves, that in book were actually behind outer wall. Also it was additionally build recently I think. And issues with inner wall are not to be seen or explored, since they didn´t breach the gate. Although problems with gate are still there in some forms I guess.
Also some people mentioned that it was build by Numenorians. I admit it is some time since I red it but I am not really sure if it is case. I remembered backstory of fortress , that one of their kings have survived there and so they build fortress there.
The wall blocking the whole walley was actually in the books...
Yeah, Helm's Dike. Its not a proper fortified structure, but a long earthen wall that stretched across the deeping comb about a quarter mile from the hornburg. It reminds me of Offa's dike from Anglo Saxon England.
@@ParryThis I think what he means is the wall starting at the hornburg.
In the book we are told that the entrences to the glittering caves lay in the valley (which where indeed defendeble by arowslitts and so on), where the horses of the army where kept and there were hidden path that led out of the valley for the people to escap.
Like you recognice the existenc of Helms Dike, which is only in the books, but then ignore the the existenc of the valley behind Helms Wall just to be able to call the wall a wast of resources.
This would be a great video series! I'm kinda surprised you haven't done more of these fortress analysis videos.
I think the Deeping Wall does serve a purpose, as it provides much more wall space for additional archers to shoot at the attackers. Without the Deeping Wall, yes the full force could have been concentrated in the keep, but there wouldn't have anyplace for the extra archers to stand where they could actually shoot the enemy until casualties opened up some wall space. Also, the Deeping Wall provides a source of flanking fire against attackers moving up the causeway to the main gate. The aerial view at 0:39 shows the geometry of this pretty well, and we do see Aragorn directing some of the elven archers to do exactly that during the film battle (the only reason it wasn't more effective was because most of the elves on the wall were occupied fighting hand-to-hand by that point).
Also, while I agree with pretty much everything you said about the keep itself (my kingdom for a freaking drawbridge, seriously!), I think the merlon issue was simply a cinematography thing. The filmmakers didn't want their row of heroic, outnumbered, haggard defenders (and Peter Jackson) to be obstructed by a bunch of head-high obstacles. The book does state that the Deeping Wall at least was "sheltered by a parapet over which only a tall man could look", with "clefts in the stone through which men could shoot". I think a lot of the issues you mentioned with the film's version of the keep have more to do with it simply being compacted into a smaller space than that type of fortification would normally need in order for the whole thing to fit into camera shots better.
I love and appreciate this video. I still love Tolkien, and Helm's Deep, but you seem to have a fair number of good points that I'll use when crafting fortifications from now on.
That might be my favorite videos you ever made. Great work!
Glad you enjoyed it! I certainly had a lot of fun making it.
This is the first video of you I've seen. I am not even into LOTR, but I am into the medieval era a lot. Halfway through when you pointet out the crenelation problem I just had to sub. Well done.
The first part of analysis I have a problem with. In pre-feudal societies (I guess this is what the authors were going for) it was quite common to have a fortress or a mound where the entire tribe could hide if raided, usually near where they lived. These were not permanantly manned, with rudimentary defenses - wooden walls and towers but not much else, almost always on a hill (I know this from Baltic history, where the feudalism came really late, and earlier social structures persisted). These could hold thousands of people for short periods of time. The point of these defences was to wait out the enemy, because the enemy almost always raided, and rarely attempted sieges, because of the constant lack of food to forage.
The purpose of HD as built was, twinned with Orthanc, to guard the line of the Isen, Gondor's northwestern border: perfectly logical placement.
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It's also worth noting that even if it was 'defending nothing', one could not in a quasi-medieval world simply leave an unreduced fortress in one's rear and march on. Not attack on Edoras could proceed unless HD was taken or invested.
Just a little bit of remind that, Hornburg was not built by Rohan, but Gordor. So It's not meant to protect Rohan nor Edoras of course, but combine it with Isengard these two are Gondor's fortresses to guard the passage we known in later 3rd age as gap of Rohan. And somehow though, If Isengard main army want to attack Rohan, they have to go through the fords of Isen, the only crossing point for a big army to cross River Isen, in which also located near Helm's Deep.
That was a very well thought out video, with tons of supporting facts and sound arguments. But thats nothing new. Excellent video.
Much appreciated!
You actually make some really good points. By the end of this you have me convinced this is the better battle.
Rohan’s big brain strategy was to get the orcs to focus all their time and effort on a wall that protects nothing, whether they intended it or not the orcs wasted their resources on a part of the fortress that did not matter.
Grima was the one who pointed out the weakness of the wall to Saruman, does this mean that he may have intentionally thrown off Saruman’s strategy by directing his attention to a red herring??
This is a nice take on the fortress of helms deep. I think though it’s only purpose is a fall back location to stop the orcs wiping out the Rohan people
I don't care if is correct or no, hearing others points of view is always good, halps to show new ways to see the context. Great video
I love lord of the rings. This was a very entertaining video.
Thank you very much. I also love lord of the rings.
Wow you really showed how the orcs and uruks almost defeated the men of Rohan in a amazing way. Also opened my eyes on how to make a good fortress that outlasts a siege and enemy attack. Although it is also described differently in the books and it would be cool if you do a version based on what tolkein wrote if you haven’t already
Actually it seems like the horn has some kind of effect on the uruks as the book details them covering their ears at the sound of the horn, tho I'm sure they could have still built arrow slits along the staircase and at the top of the tower
Also I guess you could argue why they didn't use the horn more during the battle
Yeah, if it had more than just a psychological effect, you would think they would be blowing it nonstop.
@@ParryThis I always felt the horn was more meant as a warning. Possibly for allies further into the valley. Especially since Tolkien's original sketches make the valley a lot deeper, and put the fortress farther to the front.
Great video. You deserve way more views!
I appreciate that! Hopefully with time, more people will find my content.
Send him money so he can advertise
I do agree with most your criticism except for 2 points. 1. Location wise it does make. It is perfectly located to watch the Gap of Rohan and being one of the very few ways to pass from one side of the mountains to the other it makes sense to be there.
2. The wall stretches to cover the stream Therefore it's covering a source of water for anyone there.
Glad someone finally noticed all the flaw's in this building, good job!
I came into this expecting to start swinging, because I love that battle. But every point you made makes perfect sense.
Glad you saw it through. I too love the battle of helms deep.
Helms Deep is where you send the non combatants in a time of crisis. The fighting men of Rohan are cavalry. They need to stay mobile and not be pinned to a slow moving column of civilians. Easiest solution to issue is put the non combatants inside a super strong fortress and defend it with just enough men to hold the walls. While that is happening your army can roam around and get things done.
Dang, pretty good video! I guess love is blind because as much of a castle enthusiast as I am, I never really critiqued Helm's Deep.
Yet when I watch other movies I annoy my family with over analysing battles and fortress layouts.
I too noticed the poorly designed Helms Deep. But, you pointed out two other things i didn't think about before. One is the drawbridge, which would have been crucial to any castle or fortress. The other was a lack of a gate house. Both were really good points. I too thought the deeping wall was dumb, as you pointed out. Plus, when you look at where the archers are located during the battle, they aren't in the best locations to deliver fire and avoid it themselves. I'm talking about the outer wall of the hornburg.
Good analysis.
I live in Scotland and grew up with a castle in my back garden. The castle is in the middle of a valley to control the valley. Every other castle in the area (there's about 100) is on the valley floor. None of them are halfway up a mountain apart from 1. The nearby mountain has an iron age fort at the top but anything following that was built at the valley floor. Castles are built in prominent locations to control Valleys. Helms deep would have controlled the valley across from it.
At this point I am halfway through your video and I am enjoying it thoroughly however there are some minor points I wanted to address before I forgot. Given the fact that the Rohorrim fight from horseback Helm's Deep is in an excellent location to allow a force of Horsemen to ride out in her ass larger enemy elements or destroy smaller ones. Your point about backing yourself into a corner is valid in the movies but in the books Tolkien goes out of his way to mention Helm's Dyke which does in fact present attackers with a wall and ditch style defense across the entire Valley. Thirdly while ordinarily you would be completely correct about backing your Fortress into a mountain once again the books give us a reason, those mountains are unscalable or at least have never been scaled. Moving on to the deeping wall it protects the entrance to the caves behind Helms Deep which has everything you mentioned except maybe an ale house including great stores of arms and fodder for beasts. Thirdly Helm's Deep was not so much a fortress as it was a refuge in times of peril, a role it achieved admirably. I will now continue to watch the video LOL
Almost midnight and I just found your channel (already subscribed). Amazing analysis of Helm’s Deep!
And the other videos look crazy good. God, I’m gonna spend so much time watching every video multiple times…
Welcome aboard!
The deeping wall allows mass archers to wipe out a chunk of the attacking forces and forces them to focus on two places rather than one. Its a tactical fall back as well.
It gives enemy forces more surface area to attack. Archers, on the other hand, don't need to be single-file. You can have row after row of them and all of them can still shoot at the same time. The movie even depicted this with many archers shooting from behind the wall. So having your archers spread out along a long wall is a disadvantage.
My biggest beef with the Battle of Helms Deep is that the tactics used by the Elves were just moronic in the movie. I understand that the bomb caught them with their pants down as it was an unknown technology. Fine.
1) They started firing bows way too late. They should have had markers placed outside the wall to make it super easy to tell when the orks were in range and immediately start firing. Don't wait around and let the orks march right up to the wall before you start.
2) After the bomb went off and orks started to come through the gap, the elves charged them almost immediately. That was really really dumb. They had high ground and distance advantage. They should have focused fired at the gap to plug the hole with dead orks while performing an orderly retreat to the keep once the wall is overrun. Or they could have provided the troops on the far side of the gap a chance to retreat down from the wall and abandon that side to reinforce the near side wall and continue to pepper the gap with arrows. There was no need to go on a suicide run right off the bat.
@@Sanquinity How do you fill the area behind the wall with archers volley firing if there is no wall to protect them?
@@chuckhoyle1211 1) The elves had a limited number of arrows to last the whole night, Theoden needed to buy as much time as possible to allow for the cavalry to arrive. He was maybe hoping the Uruks would not attack straight away and dig in for a siege. Firing arrows prematurely would instigate that, in fact the Uruks may have planned to be more cautious until that one dude fired an arrow accidentally and killed one.
2) That was smart actually, if they didnt move to plug that gap, the Uruks would literally just swarm in and surround the less numerous elves. Arrows wouldn't have stopped them, historically this is accurate, whenever a gap opens up in medieval sieges, you immediately send men to go plug it.
@@Sanquinity That's a really weak argument. As another comment mentioned, having archers attacking from multiple angles (as seen in a star fort) provides a distinct tactical advantage as it forces the enemy force to defend itself from several directions as opposed to one. And as Paul mentioned the deeping wall does function as a diversion from the fortress: if enemy forces are attacking the deeping wall that means they're not attacking the fortress, reducing the efficacy of any siege efforts directed at said fortress. And there's nothing wrong with providing enemy forces with "more surface area to attack" so long as that surface area is separated from the area that you are attempting to defend, which it is in this instance. There is no strategic value to be had from taking the deeping wall, as it is in an equally poor position to assault the fortress as anywhere else outside of it. So yeah, having archers spread out along a long wall is in this particular instance is actually highly advantageous strategically.
It would make sense that a small "town" existed behind the deeping wall to support the military installation with a blacksmith, food production, etc to make it self sufficient. The flaw, as you pointed out, is that this appears to be absent.
A comprehensive critique, thank you
"Many of the points i make during this video are not accurate in regards to the depiction of this fortress in the books."
You might want to make that clear in the title. A lot of the scenery in the films is barren though, I agree.
I agree with most of the points, but not with everything.
1) Strategic location - it could be in better possition, but it is not true it serves no purpose. If you have some forces there, they are protected so you cannot defeat them, but you have to keep much larger force sieging the fortress so you can occupy the territory. For example if you have some units there, but main forces are in Edoras, you have to either keep large portion of the army there and keep going on Edoras or go with everything you got, but you have enemy forces in your rear waiting for vulnurable time to attack.
2) Agree, that there could be more structures behind the wall, but it does not serve no purpose. There are caves behind it and that is what it defends. In the books some of the army (with Gimli) retreated there and defended the caves, while the main army defended the keep. And that is also why Helms Deep is build here I suppose. To protect the mines.
But as I wrote above. I agree with most of what you said. I would give maybe 1 point out of 10 to defendability of the fortress. :D But I love Lord of the Rings anyways! :D
in the movie, they call it a refuge, not a fortress for defending larger territory. also, i believe gandalf even says in the movie "he is leading them into a trap, there is no way out of that ravine".
Bingo. The point of the fortress is to raise the strategic cost of destroying the people. It also requires the attacker to split their forces if they wish to raid deeper into Rohan, since they need to leave and maintain a blocking force at Helm's Deep.
Theoden doesn't internalize that Saruman is willing to pay that strategic cost until the very end of the battle where he starts talking about "reckless hate". Everything Saruman has done is so far outside the strategy an invader or raider would do because he doesn't care about territory or wealth, just slaughtering Rohan.
Interesting video! A few counterpoints that I don't see mentioned in some of the top comments: Not every historical fortress used all the best technology or were designed according to best practices. Also, an interesting note on the strength of the outer gate: when the prop builders were told that Peter Jackson was actually going to take a battering ram to it, they were like, "Oh, shoot--we better make this a little stronger than a typical prop." The result was that the stuntmen were unable to batter down the gates, and they had to deliberately weaken it for the effect we see in the movie. That comes from one of the commentary dvds.
Also, I realize you're criticizing the movie and not the book per se, but there was a rampart and trench across the entrance to the valley, but had a breach in it and they were insufficient to man it's length. Also, though this is not the king's personal castle, it is the castle and residence of one of his vassals (Erkenbrand).
The deeping wall actually protects the glittering caves, which is where the bulk of the women and children were being kept. When it gets breached and the men of Rohan and Aragorn and Legolas have to retreat inside the keep, it’s Gimli who is cut off and forced to retreat back into the cave entrance to defend the women and children. Only reason why the wall failed is cuz Saruman invented explosives.
Even without explosive though, a pre built hole for sappers to get started from is a serious problem. The way walls like that are destroyed is by burrowing under and collapsing it on top.
@@obansrinathan either way, the extra time that would take gives the rohirrim a chance to relieve the siege
"Now hear me out. I'm not saying it serves NO purpose. I'm just saying it's almost entirely useless."
Helm's Deep in a tactical nutshell lmao
Great analysis! This is really well written.
I've found the lack of farms and barracks/ buildings surrounding cities and forts, in Jackson LOTR, very jarring.
To be fair Helms deep was rarely used, Minas Tirith you could argue that maybe, but being so close to Mordor and getting orc raiding parties too frequently would essentially force Gondorians to all seek shelter behind its walls.
@@geechyguy3441 There's supposed to be a big wall ring a few miles out of the city exactly for this. Nowhere to be seen in the film.
Yup, it's not called "the Battle of the Pelennor Fields" for nothing. The battlefield was literally... lots of fields. 😂
They even refer to that wall (Rammas Echor) in the films, even though it's not there!
1. Denethor tells Faramir that "we shouldn't abandon our outer defences so lightly". This line is taken from the books when Denethor speaks of the wall surrounding the Pelennor. He didn't want his son to go on a suicide mission, who would have guessed?
2. Theoden instructs his captains when they're approaching the Pelennor. He tells one of them to take their company "to the right after passing the wall". I hadn't read the books before seeing the movies and this really confused me even when I saw the movie for the first time. I thought Theoden was instructing the captain to essentially make a u-turn when they would reach the walls of Minas Tirith (the only wall there was in the film). The line made much more sense in the books as Theoden just told what to do after passing the wall that surrounded the Pelennor Fields!
@@joeltimonen8268 That's fair enough, maybe some budget constraints and wanting to focus on more important things drew their attention. LOTR still holds true as being one of the most realistic fantasies out there, and it's golden compared to last seasons of GOT and Rings of power lol. Even the hobbit had quite a few flaws.
@@joeltimonen8268 Plus the wall around the 1st level of Minas Tirith is meant to be jet black & flawless, like Orthanc.
An annalyse of Minas Tirith would be also interesting. Nice video.
From my casual reading of the books back in the 90s, I'm pretty sure that Helm's Deep was an old, decrepit Gondor Fortress that lost its strategic value and was gifted to Rohan. They had only used it in emergencies to hide the population in times of desperation or attack. It was used little and never had a permanent garrison but rather was a refuge of last resort. It also could've served more as a waystation to have space for supplies for a traveling army and made more for access of convenience than surviving a full on assault as the logic would be that the Rohirrim would be fast, mobile, and harassing enemy units in the many open fields of Rohan where the men of the Riddemark dominate the plains as their horses are most advantageous, but if their cavalry is defeated, they have a retreat / rally point to fall back to. I always thought of it as the basement in 'Night of the Living Dead': It wasn't meant for that purpose, but it's the only option you have left. Though, yes, a drawbridge would've helped a lot.
Great analysis! I agree with all your points!
Helm's deep (Aglarond) was of Numenorean Design built by the Exiles. It was the sister fortress of Isengard (Agrenost) and was primarily used as a secure base to watch the Gap of Calenardhon. During the Rohirrim Period is was used as a refuge for the people of the Westfold in times of trouble. The Numenoreans had smoothed the mountain surrounding the keep. There is no record of anyone scaling the peaks behind it. The Deeping Wall was thick enough for four men to walk abreast and was twenty feet high. Only a tall man could look over the parapet and it's outer face was smooth. It guarded the entrance to the Glittering Caves where the stores and refuge for people. During the Gondorian period this area was psarsly populated especially after the Great Plague of 1640 TA. So the defenses were allowed to decay. The Rohirrim would have made due with what was left and repaired what they could. It did survive the siege of 2758 against the Dunlendings. The fortress itself was located at the mouth of the gorge and the valley in front of the fortress was crossed over its entire width by the earthen wall. The long causeway wound up to the great gate of the fortress itself which was built upon an outthrust spur of rock, the Hornrock. The fortress had concentric walls with a tower, the Burg, in the centre. The Film version was not true to the book in many cases but that often happens in Film just look at Braveheart, Battle of stirling Bridge had no bridge in the movie.
Hey mate! I really enjoyed this take. Not only was it humorous and fun, but it was right-on in terms of criticism in-line with English fortress design (I keep yelling, "why wasn't there moat!?" "Where are the ditches??" Well done!
Scrolling through other ppls comment section to see if everyone gets hate and it’s not just me. Apparently so. Great video my dude XD
Helm's Deep is my favourite fortress of all time. Maybe it's because its unique and impractical design xD. Thanks for the great analysis!
First of, great analysis, I agree with basically all points about the short-comings of this castle. Great work, it provided some more info on why I felt such strong distaste for it. I must say, that this very battle took me out of The Lord Of The Rings. It made me critique it more so than the films themselves, making me enjoy it altogether less, although cinematically it's a great piece of work. All 3 films have fantastic picture. However, this very fortress is designed in one of the worst, if not the worst ways possible and has countless amount of mistakes, many of which are pointed out in this video. Great job on that again.
Another thing that took me out of it, was almost all of the tactics that the defenders used in order to 'defend' themselves. For example, putting more spearmen at the towers and walls, than at the base of walls, the double doors and so on. In fact, it's the other way around. More archers are BEHIND walls and the double doors, than on walls and towers, where they should be. The spearmen rush in to aid at the breach too late, the king goes to the front-line and the attackers break through. Then the defenders don't tip over the fire pits and utilise fire to burn the Uruks (the fire pits lit on the walls). The king has horses at the hall and then charges through the enemy. Gandalf also does the same thing, but charges down a hill so steep that everyone could tip over. That gives him and his company no advantage, especially since Uruks have pikemen at the ready.
I could go on and on and on. From the way people wear armour, to equipment, to the fact that NO notable advancements have been made in THOUSANDS of years (armour is the same, weapons are the same, castles, etc.). And sure, the Orcs have made MANY mistakes during this battle as well, but they're naturally dumb. And has anyone noticed the extras in the background? Half of them do NOTHING, they just all stand around to fill in the frame.
I get it, it's a FANTASY world, but I just can't get over this. It is why I have my own issues with Star Wars battles as well. I like big battles that fantasy brings, but... little realism? Can't have?
Yeah, as far as most of the tactical blunders go, i can usually explain it by examining Jackson's work as a whole, and he is a big picture guy, not a historically accurate detail guy. He does a great job of drawing focus where he wants it, and the background is never meant to be examined. I think it usually works, but sometimes you notice the mistakes.
@@ParryThis Right, and that's fine, it's his own vision. Perhaps that is what got me so upset, because I do tend to be drawn to details in general. I took theses 3 films too seriously, that was my problem. And instead of laughing about it being ridiculous in some ways, I kept being mad about what the characters were doing and so on. He has a way with cameras though, absolutely.
Well as for the charge into pikes... That would be a problem but the whole point of it is that Gandalf timed it so that the sun would rise behind and blind the orca for a second so they'd recoil and lift their spears out of a braced position. Giving the cavalry the ability to just drive into them.
@@drd444 Try riding your horse in a gallop straight into a brick wall. Worse yet, a steel wall.
A mass of Uruks, more than 5 ranks deep, all in plate armor, would collectively shatter the bones of the horses and catapult the riders over as they suddenly stop from the impact. Cavalry are not battering rams.
@@roadent217 Oh yeah, that would be a fun scene...
the long wall next to the keep protects a water source. very important during a prolonged seige. the stream you mentioned comes from the mountain. If the uruks had seiged helms deep instead and the wall wasn't there, the defenders would have to worry about getting attacked whenever they went outside to get water.
the weakness in the wall, being the grate that lets the stream flow, wasn't previously seen as a weakness because explosives were not really a thing up to that point. even grima did not know what saruman was presenting to him when he first showed it to him. its actually kind of nonsensical for grima to recognize it as a weakness since he doesn't know about explosives as a concept to begin with. that grate isn't removable or effectively a point you could exploit otherwise.
In any siege they besieger could simply climb up the mountains around the keep and rain down on it
Wasn't there a general who instead of going around a mountain which would add days to their journey just decided to go RIGHT over the mountain losing some men but surprising the enemy with such an unexpected move that they end up winning the battle.
Yes , Hannibal the carthaginian crossed the alps and got a mayor victory
Alexander the Great, when he came across a mountain fortress he'd send a special group of men to climb the mountain and appear from behind the fortress. Morale would shatter and they'd surrender
Just a couple of points (both supporting and criticism):
Strategically (and tactical location), I agree, wholeheartedly, about the disadvantages this mountain-side fortress poses. Both from a siege standpoint and positioning standpoint (against a mountain with snow). Although the writers/producers try to ignore and explain away this inherent fact, you know how the movies go...like a project manager trying to keep a timeline or a budget, they'd write away any unnecessary plot fat or gaps. It would be a sound strategy for Sauramon just to pin in the defenders. However, the writers also (conveniently) put Sauramon on a timeline.
Tactically (from purely a design perspective), I'm not necessarily in agreement with the logic of your arguments; having a second direction (especially if that position is well-protected) of fire can be vital. While you can argue you may be able to better use those archers on the tower, it looks pretty crowded with all the Kingsmen gathered there and the likelihood is high that you would not be able to fit most of them in there. Also, I really do not see any protruding ends of the tower/fortress (other than the deepening wall) sticking out, so I don't think an overlapping/crossfire would be happening there.
As for the hole at the center of the deepening wall (drain) as far as the dialog in the movie is concerned explosives don't seem to be common knowledge amongst the combatants. So I give a pass to the movie/story on this one.
"Those who are wrong" I laughed way harder than I should have
The Deeping Wall literally protects the water source. How the hell do you not get this basic concept?
you should do one of these on the battle of minas tirith and how the defence was.
Positionally, the location of the Hornburg at Helm's Deep is to control movement through the Gap of Rohan, through which the Dunlendings would have to come through in order to threaten Rohan. And it was historically in _coordination_ with the Tower and fortifications of Isengard for defending that Gap. Isengard was not a historical nemesis but rather part of the defense of the Gap as built by the ancient men of Gondor. Saruman was given control of the tower as an ally. Only much more recently, literally in the years just prior to the events of the LOTR, did Saruman become corrupt. Any force of Dunlendings moving through the Gap would potentially be subject to getting crushed by cavalry sallying forth from either fortification.
Criticism about not being built up higher on the mountain is, frankly, silly. Its purpose was to counter forces (Dunlendings of centuries before) that did not have siege equipment that could scratch it. There is no suggestion anywhere that the mountains around Helm's deep were even remotely scalable for potential attackers to attack from above. So we should probably not assume it was necessary, let alone feasible to build up higher on the mountain.
Criticism about the Deeping Wall not protecting the keep and that it doesn't protect anything only would only apply to the movie. The Rohirrm were a calvary force and the Deeping Wall protected the staging field and stables for the horses behind the wall. Plus there were storage and refuge in the Glittering Caves at the end of the gorge.
The sally port in the books is not next to the front gate. Others have pointed out many other deviations between the books and film.
The rendering of Helms Deep in the. Lord of the Rings Online MMORPG is much more accurate to the book and quite different from the film and from what is discussed here in this video..
Looking at Tolkien's own drawings of this place it becomes clear he had a better, albeit not perfect, vision of how the fortress would work. He has it as a much more forward location, which could be used to project power against an invader. However he still fails to have a real moat or draw bridge despite the height of the access way and easy access to water. The Deepingwall also retains its plot point weakness.
In defense of the people of Rohan, they had little experience building castles and fortresses. Even Edoras wasn't designed to be defended against serious attack. Their primary defensive strategy is to retreat while harrying the enemy with superior cavalry in a constantly moving battle of attrition. The Hornburg and it's associated features are a leftover of when Gondor held the area, thousands of years earlier. Rohan only use the place as a last resort when all else fails, and if it wasn't for Saruman and his knowledge of explosives the Deepingwall weakness wouldn't be a weakness, remember that we really only see explosives used by wizards in LOTR, it is not a technology regular people or armies employ.
That said, yeah the movie version of the fortress is definitely sketchy, it looks amazing but its real world value is questionable.
The peculiarities of the tower's construction can be explained that Gondor had a number of towers with Palanthirs, for use in scrying upon the enemy. Those orbs acted as super-eyes, so presumably they had to be high up to work best? But that doesn't excuse Rohan for not adapting the fortress over time. Some of the flaws, like the culvert, can be explained by the fact that until Saruman came on the scene, explosive petards simply were not on the scene, and therefore wouldn't be a factor in castle construction. Tolkein's protagonists have a rather negative attitude towards the technological innovations Saruman brings to Middle Earth. It is perhaps a similar attitude to Japan's Samurai class as depicted in the Tom Cruise movie, the Last Samurai.
But I would argue that the literal best fantasy movie battle of all time happened in the opening scene of the Fellowship of the Ring, with the Last Alliance of Men and Elves vs Sauron. From the initial perspective, the small golden line vs the vast orc horde, it looks like a mismatch. How can this small force be advancing on Sauron and hope to accomplish anything? But then in a few quick scenes, efficient story telling, we seen them act like a disciplined machine with superior weapons and armor and just cut through the horde. It was elegant, and it told the story that Tolkein often gushed over for pages and pages.
I'd give this video 10/10 if asked. Every strength and weakness of Helms Deep was covered. I hate the cavalry charge down the causeway. The leading horses would have smashed the leading ranks of orcs, but hundreds of tightly packed bodies would be more than enough to stall further advances. Nor are their horses heavily armoured, some would be injured or killed. Many of the following horses would have fallen from the causeway. That aside, I've always thought that at least two taller and wider curtainwalls with towers, gatehouses, and machicolations set in front of the Fortress would have made it impregnable even if the outer wall was breached.
1. A castle, is by definition: 'a large building, typically of the medieval period, fortified against attack with thick walls, battlements, towers, and in many cases a moat.'. Helms deep meets this criteria. 2. Helms deep is not a fortress, because the definition of that would be a military stronghold, especially a strongly fortified town. (which it's obviously not.) 3. Many castles were often not full of treasures, or kings and were often utilized only in times of crisis. In peacetime many often saw just a skeleton crew maintaining the structure. 4. I feel Helms deep is already enormous, and natural defenses are less effective futher out, yet I think in the original sketch it does make more sense (check original sketch helms deep made by JRR Tolkien himself). 5. I feel being at the base might indeed cause complications, however I'm willing to suspend disbelief on that note. 6. The 'useless' wall was actually, in the original sketch surrounding the castle. Futher, i'd argue it is a way to secure fresh water without having it running through your main castle structure. 7. Spreading out defenders is often a good thing, for one you can rain down on your attackers from whatever angle, once your attackers breach that defense, you can always retreat your men, as was seen in the movie. If you've played any rome/medieval total war, you'd know union layering defense is the way to go :-). 8. Moat and drawbridges are a plus, totally correct! The crenellation on the walls should indeed be higher. Also agree the doors are flimsy, should contain two sets of gates, so in between could be exposed to even more downpour of nastiness. 9. Outer and inner ring does connect only at defensible gates, I do agree gate houses are missing in those. All in all, I think 'doing very close to everything wrong' is an enormous overstatement, and I think most medieval men would've loved to defend that castle, after some minor alterations. Do read up on castles yourself if you read this comment, to see if any of what I, or 'Parry This' says holds up, we're all human, very important :).
Love it. Interesting observation
Just one thing I want to point out is in the beginning of the video you said helms deep wasn't well placed, it was built by the gondorians and was gifted to Rohan so rohan really didn't have a choice lol. They were gifted it and the lands they currently inhabit from gondor a long time ago. That's it, thanks for the good video.
To be fair just sieging helms deep out was what happened during the days of helm hammerhand the Uruk hai attacked mostly to defeat Theoden
Yeah, i understand the reason the Uruks attacked. I just mean, as a serious design flaw, against other opponents. It would just be too easy to place the fortress, as designed in the movie, under an effective siege.
@@ParryThis as said in most cases in the lore it was put under siege why the numenorians built it there I can’t answer but it seems to do it’s job in the lore
@@Cody-5501 It's there for two reasons: To combined with Isengard watch the Gap of Rohan, and to protect the Glittering Caves which were used as the Keep's store of provisions and during the battle to protect the noncombatants. These were also built thousands of years earlier when the political situation was different.
It is also built on the north face of the mountain.
EDIT: The crenellations are tall enough for Gimli though.
Very good breakdown
Helm HammerHand did get a little to big for his britches saying that “no one has ever breached the deeping wall and that no enemy has ever set foot inside of the Hornburg” Theoden got the phrase from his great great grandfather Helm Hammerhand, but that being said, the Hornburg is also extremely old and it’s first record of existence was in the early second age. And thus the enemies that it faced were no chance against it at the time, but you see that it is practically falling apart with the overhangs on the inner ring.
If I was to design a castle based on this design: I'd make the gate easy af to break, so that enemy would just send masses of infantry to attack the fortress. After the gate there would be a stairway leading down some fifteen metres or so, in complete darkness of course. At the end of this stairway there would normally be a wooden floor. Under the floor there's a hundred metre fall down a precipice. Preparing the fortress for attack the floor would be removed, leaving nothing but a dark void waiting to swallow the frenzied enemy horde. When an individual soldier reaches the opening, there's no way for them to stop since there's a 10,000 guys pushing you from behind, eager to get inside the fortress, away from enemy fire. Besides, it's completely dark as I said. The fortress would just eat the entire enemy army. Of course this tactic would work only once, but it would be a glorious sight.
Lmao. This was hysterical. All the stuff I noticed as well. Luckily, the movie was good enough to overcome these issues for those of us that noticed them.
This explains why I would instinctively clump all my forces in the keep and never occupy the deeping wall when playing Battle for Middle Earth...
Meanwhile taking a look at the fort in the books its actually rather defencable.
It is designed close by but not right under the mountain. it's essentially a normal keep build ontop a hill with very steep elevation and the deeping wall is a ceperate entity running along in front of it and connected by a gate house. The wall's point is to foward an outer layer of defence while defending the Glittering caves entrance and you could say the water source for the keep (and controlling that water source because apparently the dike could be flooded without the wall and it's culvert but that would also mean flooding the caves which the Rohirrim don't want).
Then both the keep and the wall are actually on top an even larger and steeper hill that offers another elevation layer of defence. Really there is not much you can do against the deeping wall in the book version so the only options the orcs have is either spamming ladders on a small normally sized erea of the hill or trying to climp this semi mountain or bottlenecking themselves at the ramp leading to the main gatehouse.
The wall did fall by the fire of orthanc eventually in a similar fashion but in order to reach that culvert the orcs had to infiltrate and almost failed actually, the culvert was sealed off but they managed to light the fire which blew a big chunk of the wall. The Deeping Wall forces then retreat to the Gliterring caves and near Gandalf's arrival Gimli,Gambling and Legolas pushed the orcs out the dike similary to Theoden , Eomer (yes ,in the books his already in Helms Deep) and Aragorn did at Hornburg.
ah ye also...no Elves :(
3:35 where's that castle from?
You build a fortress to impose your will over the area immediately around the fortress. Like, the valley. The one between the mountains. The one where trade and any invading forces would have to march to get from one side of the mountains to the other. Any attempt to go through the pass would require facing down any troops in the fortress. Troops that, from a horse culture, would be skirmishing cavalry. They need a secure place to launch raids, and to defend themselves.
my guess is the wall is so they can have catapults or significantly more archers protected from attacks so its not "it now needs more men to defend it" moreso its so more man can be used more effectively cuz if they are all huddled up in the fortress there isn't much room but when they are like what they were in the movie its easier and helms deep was working until they put a literal bomb in a drain
the only one properly protected by the crenelations is Gimli and then they *offer him a box to stand on*. i want to rip out my hair every time
Right, its a very ironic conversation.
Good analysis
Thanks, i thought so.
Great video!
Helms Deep is the name of the gorge guarded by the Hornburg. The Hornburg is the homestead of Erkenbrand of the Westfold. In addition the forces of Isengard are nearly out of supplies. The experienced Rohirrim could just wait them out inside the Hornburg with the local(!) population safe in the caves of Helms Deep, but at the same time King Theoden knows that Gondor is about to be attacked and desperately needs his help. The actual setup of Helms Deep and the fortifications there is also critically different in the source material than what is depicted in the movie. For one we are missing a significant river fed by "a mighty spring" that splits the area before the Hornburg in two. For another we are missing Helms Dike, another defensive feature completely omitted in the film.
There's good reason for that, film is a visual medium and there are several factors that prevent this story from being told the way it was in the books. Nonetheless this medium difference makes it impossible to truly critique the thing from a historical/military perspective.
And I invite you to take a look at the actual source material, it is quite an impressive feat for Tolkien to have layed out such a compelling and plausible scenario.
I think a fair few problems with the relation between Helm's Deep and the valley are caused by taking the siege of Helms deep and turning it into a single decisive battle to lessen run time for the film. At the start of the valley you had Helms Dike which was a descent fortification but nothing special, it could hold of raids and delay invasion but against a full army like Saruman's it would be more to inflict a fair few causalities while taking few causalities and buying time to allow civilians to get into the glittering caves. The Hornburg itself is pretty accurate but it was further up the valley and only had one side against the mountain instead of the 2 and a bit in the films. The biggest change is the Deeping wall or more specifically what it covers, in the film the space covered by the wall is small enough that you can probably through something from one side to the other but it should be substantially bigger and it stops access to one side of the Hornburg (about half is covered by the mountains and wall including a less defended rear gate and half is open to attack) and stops progress down the valley to the glittering caves. The glittering caves themselves do not need fortifying because they are natural choke points a couple of hundred soldiers could easily hold the narrows (the path from the Hornburg to the caves) against a much larger force in the same way the battle of Thermopylae had the various Greek states holding the pass for far longer than they should be able to based on geography alone.
I will say this video got one thing right, and it's probably the one mistake with the battle on screen, and that's when the gate is breached, the battle is basically over and they have to retreat all the way to the keep. I know that they already had 30 minutes worth of battle scenes at that point (which is a lot of time for a movie) but it would have been nice if the defenders were able to hold a little bit longer, after the main gate was breached. Like he said in the video, the second wall becomes basically useless, which is a shame.
Here’s a scenario I’ve thought of..if there were 20 army rangers with full kits and weaponry (3 X ammo load it’s per ranger) minus M2, mortars, AT-4a etc would they likely prevent the deaths of all 200 elves and many other men who died in the film?
Reason they didn't wall off the mouth of the valley is that you can ride over the hill on the left side, and Gandalf and the Rohirim did at the end of the battle.
A very interesting take indeed
Great video
Glad you enjoyed it
What is this? Someone criticizing my precious LotR?
Ok. I agree with every point made in this video - great analysis :D
To the point made at 6:08
They had to leave some space behind the wall so you could built farms and other buildings there in Battle for Middle Earth 2. This makes an 1 vs 3 against 3 NPCs with ultra difficulty quite doable ;-P
This is an astute analysis which draws on many historical examples. Now, would you consider redrawing your 1911-wielding knight so he's practicing proper trigger discipline?
he's a millisecond from firing at all times.
The thing is....King Theoden was being controlled by Saruman. So the development of the fort would of stopped....Just my thought really....Also Theoden did mention noone has EVER breached the walls of Helms Deep. Although he did think too little of the Urak Hai's at the time of preparation, he was so confident that he and his men can defend this keep with ease.
The deeping wall has PEOPLE behind it. It's where the people and livestock would camp (hence the tents because in the case of a fortress like this, that people would only use for occasional protection, it doesn't make sense to build proper buildings.
And the caves are also accessed from behind the deeping wall (where much of the provisions are kept).
The major question raised by Helm's Deep's position is what is it defending? Its place and design is slightly different in the books. Even so.
Two things to keep in mind about the setting.
1. The timescale of the series is much greater than it appears. Maybe hundreds or thousands of years ago Helm's Deep's location made sense.
2. Humans, dwarves and elves seem to have a hard time keeping up their populations for whatever reason. This seems to cause fortress mentality to recure in Middle Earth civilizations. It might be worth it for a small population to wait in an impossibly strong location for orcish rule's inevitably fall into chaos.
I think the in lore reason for its location is just that the Hornburg, and Isenguard are on opposite sides of the gap of rohan. So hypothetically, a well positioned force in each would make incursions into Rohan difficult until both positions had been captured.
Nice movie, one small thing. Helms Deep was build by the Men og Gondor in the second Age - So it's actually a rather old fort... I also got the interpretation that it had been neglected hard through the ages.