Moving on to the short prequel to the Iliad, today we discuss why Agamemnon is a terrible father. Infanticide isn't the ONLY reason, but it IS kind of a big one.
Yeah especially after the whole pretending to be a woman, getting a princess pregnant, only to be bailed by his boyfriend and Oddeyseus, Achilles probably would be tired of this crap if Iphigenia approached him. Also, fun fact, that kid grows up to be a fucking psychopath.
Except he actually had a wife and then there was the whole Briseis situation... regardless of whether he and Patroclus were lovers, he liked women too.
There is a version where Artemis regrets her demand of killing Iphigenia. Before Iphigenia is killed by the fire, Artemis puts a deer in her place and makes Iphigenia a priestess. Later on, her brother Orestes finds her somewhere on a mountain. I don't really know if that last thing is true, but I thought that that was the alternative ending.
Greek gods, regretting things to have to do with mortals? Pretty sure if you look up the word "impossible", the entire Greek pantheon would be right there.
Except he actually had a wife and then there was the whole Briseis situation... regardless of whether he and Patroclus were lovers, he liked women too.
In the version I'm familiar with, the reason they need to sacrifice her is because Agamemnon was in charge of making sacrifices to all the gods, but he forgot Artemis, who (being the goddess of virgins) demands his virgin daughter as a sacrifice (apparently the gods have ridiculous late fees). She is then super impressed by Iphigenia's courage and willingness to die for the, er, 'greater good' and snatches her up just before they kill her and tells them she'll let them just sacrifice a deer if Iphigenia becomes her priestess.
In version I read, the story continues when Orestes has to get a golden statue of Artemis, when he gets captures and is about to be sacrificed, but pristess's sword slips and she proclaims it as bad sign and postpone the sacrifice. After which she helps Orestess escape.
In case you're wondering why Achilles is concerned about being beaten up: that's because his invlulnerability wasn't made up yet in the times of Homer and Euripides. The first one we know mentioning it is Statius in the first century AD. In any earlier works, Achilles should just be considered a really good soldier, but not 99% undestructable.
@@corabranch266 gotta be somewhere since his mom basically squished all his human frailty into one spot by dunking him in a magic river. So, he ends up weak in the spot she hung on to him by when dipping. Better an ankle than a wrist. Presumably, he couldn't be dunked 100% without falling apart putting on socks or whatever.
@@corabranch266 From what I remember in the myth surrounding Achilles’ indestructability (is that even a word? Is now..) is that when he was a baby his mother wanted him to be safe from all harm and was told that if she dipped him a special river (forgot the name) it would make him protected, or something like that. The river was very swift so she had to hold onto him or he’d be swept away and drown. So she grabbed him by the heel and dipped him in, so every part of him but the heel was magically protected because his mom wasn’t able to get that part of him in the river. That’s why his heel is his weak spot, and that’s why the tendon on the back of the leg stemming from the heel into the calf is called the Achilles tendon. Because if it gets damaged you’re screwed.
@@corabranch266 It's because his mother (a nymph) didn't want him to die so dipped him in the River Styx, but had to hold him somewhere so the ankle she held him by was the only way he could be killed.
@@samrevlej9331 I'm pretty sure that oarsmen on galleys and triremes are not there for fun :p Like according to modern reconstructions, the most likely way of propulsion of the triremes were with sails and oars in the same time, just oars would be just slower ^^ And also, they don't have to row all the way across, just to catch up the wind to... help them to go faster as they would continue rowing ^^'
@@krankarvolund7771 I fail to see your point. Not being there for fun doesn't mean they were worked to death. These guys were citizens, not slaves. And even if the fastest way was rowing *and* sails, that's just in close combat, when you have to ram your ship into another one. Rowers couldn't manage the entire trip, sails had to be used at some point. And here, the idea with "no wind" is that there isn't a single breeze close enough that they can get to it just by rowing. It's a myth, not a weather-accurate historical account.
@@samrevlej9331 You know you can take pauses during your trip, right? ^^' Like you make them work 4 or 6 hours per day, you will still be closer from your goal ^^ As for full speed, from what I've found, Xenophon tell us that triremes could make 20km per day. And this speed can't be reached by sail only, judging by the trireme, nor by rowing only, so they probably used both at the time ^^ And yes, historians knew that oarsmens probably didn't worked all day and considered it in the calculations ^^
The gods weren't allowing winds to blow because Agamemnon forgot to make the harvest sacrifice to Artemis. Which makes it really odd that the required sacrifice was a young maiden.
Actually, Agamemnon had killed Artemis' sacred deer, thus causing her wrath. That's why Artemis stopped the winds and that's why the sacrifice needed to be something dear to Agamemnon. According to another version of the story, Artemis saves Iphigenia at the last second, putting a deer in her place and making her priestess in one of her sacred temples.
Hey it's not a two woman race! There's the woman Agamemnon abducted from her priest of Apollo father, the one Agamemnon stole from Archilles, the princess/prophetess Agamemnon brought home ....wait.... I'm sensing a trend here...
Alberts Choise Sisyphus isn’t that bad. Yeah he locked Thanatos in a trunk but it’s human nature to want to escape death. He was a bit of a dick as opposed to Agamemnon who’s a monster.
@@tanyanikolaevagizdova6571 And stole from them. Plus, even without that, we could always make the argument the reason he got punished so badly was because he _personally_ offended the three deities who were in control of his afterlife by trying to con them.
@@ilana3783 I honestly can’t remember if it was Sisyphus or not but I think there was one version of the myth where he tried to impress the gods by killing and cooking his son? I’m not sure if it was about Sisyphus or another person though
This is one of those convoluted tales with a lot of backstory required to put it into perspective. When Helen was being put up for sale--I mean, offered in marriage--a lot of men showed up to win her hand. In order to avoid the inevitable bickering, rioting and bloodshed that would happen with a lot of armed men fighting for one girl, Odysseus the Clever proposed this solution: 1) The girl would choose her husband and right away (so there would be no suspicion of her father conferring with her beforehand in order to make the best choice, i.e., one suitable to him [rich, of royal or noble blood, e.g.]) and 2) that all the men pledge beforehand to come to the aid of the winner should he ever require it. Since every man thought he would be the lucky sod, they all readily agreed to these conditions. So when Menelaus lost Helen to Paris of Troy, he immediately called in his marker and demanded that all the losers--including his own brother--rally to aid him in retrieving his adulterous wife. That meant that Agamemnon had to help Menelaus, even to the extent of sacrificing his own daughter.
An oracle telling the commander of an army he must kill his daughter so the gods will let him advance? Wow now I know where Game of Thrones got their inspiration from.
DiamondCat64 You would love The Song of Achilles. It's essentially a fanfic based on the Illiad and other myths about Patroclus and Achilles told from the perspective where Achilles and Patroclus were in a relationship. It's very sad, but sooooooo good.
Sorry, but Agammenon swore two vows. One to his brother, to defend his marriage with Helen. And another with the Artemis, to give her his most precious possession for dishonoring her. The Greeks were BIG on the whole vows thing. So he pretty much HAD to kill his daughter. Like you say, you can't piss off the gods.
Levon Gevorgyan also I don't know if this helps but my college professor had us read the Odyssey in one class and in the other he gave a summary of this while we read Agamemnon. He explained the importance of hospitality between guest and host. The suitors violated this through out the Odyssey. Paris kidnapped Helen as a guest of Agamemnon. This was a slap to the face for Agamemnon and he had to rectify that. Not going would be an insult to Zeus, and you don't want Zeus mad at you. So I don't see Agamemnon as jerk in this case but as someone stuck between two bad choices. Can't really judge off the Iliad cause I haven't read it.
Imagine my surprise when I learned that that whole "wine dark" thing is literally, *LITERALLY* because the Greek language didn't come with a word for the color blue which is on their flag. What an awesome language. Like, I'm not being sarcastic, I really love the Greek language. Generally a pain in the ass to learn from English, but there's a lot of overlap with the vocabulary, considering how most of our technical words, words for basically anything that grows, shits, and/or dies; and words for anything that moves over time have their roots in Greek. Not the most complicated language I've ever learned, though. That distinction is split between Tibetan and Mohawk. MAN, they're complicated...
Red gives Agamemnon a hard time though, sure, he's not the greatest Greek hero and he can be quite a dick, but he absolutely not the worst either. This whole war with Troy was eventually caused by an oath proposed by Odysseus, Agamemnon was in that way simply a man of his word, in the Illiad you see countless moments in which he shows to be an honourable person: he agrees for Menelaos and Paris to fight and would've ended the war right there and then if it wasn't for Aphrodite, he admits his wrongs to Achilles and does all he can to get him back...
I saw that film many years ago. It was sooo sad, someone behind me in the cinema burst into tears during Iphigenia’s speech and had to leave the cinema. Achilles, moved, says he wishes it was real because he would love to make such a brave girl his wife.
One time I got to play Iphigenia in a middle school play (where I was one of three actors who actually liked being there), and I got a really beautiful and comfy costume. I got to be the Priestess version of Iphigenia, and I was also holding an antler and a small jug of grape juice (it was supposed to be blood) the whole time. Anyway I dropped the jug during one of my rehearsals and while the jug was fine I stained some guy’s white Jordans and I felt bad but it was incredibly funny bc he played Orestes and he had supposedly just climbed a mountain and once he reached the peak there was a girl holding an antler who threw blood at him
Bruh my teacher told us Patroclus was a hollies cousin because “there’s only two things Achilles loves, his cousin and himself” but it makes so much more sense that they were homie sexual
Per the epic cycle: Agamemnon murdered a pretty deer in a sacred grove watched over personally by Artemis. So now Artemis demands the king to sacrifice his own daughter. The fake wedding thing is supported by multiple sources and utilized by Euripedes for the play. Apparently, according to some other sources, Achilles didn't know the wedding was happening until the last minute. Some say Achilles burst in to save her, some say Artemis swapped her out with an animal. There's plenty of versions of this story. Personally I prefer the one where she is saved by Artemis, since her supposed death is what triggers the whole "kill Agamemnon" plot by the dude's entire family.
Achilles: what are you guys doing? Soldiers: if you won’t let us kill Agamemnons daughter then we’re going to beat you up! Achilles: yeah let’s see how well that goes.
I still hold Muppet Treasure Island as one of my favorite movies. ""Take a cruise," you said. "See the world," you said. Now here we are, stuck on the front of this stupid ship" "Well, it could be worse. We could be stuck in the audience." --Statler and Waldorf My first fourth wall break and a joke I have never forgotten
I thought that the reason he killed his daughter was because the Greek Goddess Artemis overheard him bragging about a deer he killed and how he did better that she would have done, and so she stopped the winds in revenge, and he was told sacrificing her would be the only way to make the wind blow again? I saw Electra a few months ago, and I think that's what they said? Love your videos BTW (especially Shakespeare! You gonna do Henry V or the Taming of the Shrew anytime soon?)
It differs depending on the version of the story. In the original, she is sacrificed, but as the times progressed in Greece the idea that a goddess would request a human sacrifice, specifically Artemis, became repugnant so instead of her dying it become her magically transported away. This was the case in the classical age, that is to say, Athena's golden age, which was when the plays were written. Keep in mind that at the time Agamemnon was supposed to be a sympathetic character, so far as the play went, so this change would have justified his greatly, also would be more suited for a play as her being alive could serve as a great climax in the Orestia.
We read a part of Iphigeneia in Greek some weeks ago, her monologue to try and convince her father NOT to kill her namely, pulling her mother and youngest brother into the monologue right before resigning to her fate. Quite moving and beautiful I must say. Awesome video :D
Over three years late to this party, but I've just recently subscribed and have been going back and watching all the videos. One thing I absolutely adore about this channel is Red's selections for outro music, especially her covers, but holy crap this one is special. So much nostalgia. Great video. Great song. Kudos.
"there's an alternate ending where he kills a deer instead" wait a minute, a deity demands you sacrifice your child but then it's enough to sacrifice an animal? where have I heard that story before?
Don't forget that the whole Helen thing was started by one goddess getting three other goddesses to fight, so she really takes home, like, fifth place at best.
Okay, that ending got me to burst out in laughing. Now imagining the greek hero's as their muppet counterparts. I wonder who would be ajax mayor and who the lesser
I think of Aggie as a mob boss like Tony Soprano. The Troy business was never about helping his brother but commanding all these Greek city-states as close to a high king as you can get.
The alternative ending is far from a Disney one. Hint: she is part of Orestes' story following the murder of their mother. Also, as the leader of the army, Agamemnon had no choice but to make the sacrifice. As for why he was there in the first place (aside from the loot), all rulers in Greece had taken an oath to aid each other if the need arose ...and with Paris eloping with Helen, it did. Oaths were serious business in ancient Greece.
yeah, kind of shame that D(um)nD(umer) left out the part from the book where Stannis left Shireen with his crazy ass wife and Red woman in the Black castle. But hey, Goth reached (bad) fanfic level of ASOIAF long before 5th season and because GRUMM will never finished the books Jon Sue still lays cold dead in snow, Kelly C is stuck in the middle of Dothraki see with cholera and Stannis is on way to pull a tactical genious that would make CREEED proud
"Sailing for adventure on the big blue wet thing" was the perfect ending to this! Now I want to see a cinematic version that actually ends with the Greeks sailing off into the sunset singing that song!
I was hoping the Orestia would have been summarized by now. :( Although I might be biased due to my upcoming exam on it. Anyway, love your work on the Iliad, it was a lovely useful study break and quite helpful. Keep up the amazing work.
Oh my God, Muppet Treasure Island? Woooooow, what a blast from the past that is. Definitely one of my favorite versions of that classic story. Hey ho, we'll go, anywhere the wind is blowing....
I feel like the whole "the wind won't blow until you kill Iphegenia" thing was supposed to be something that doesn't happen. Like a last ditch attempt to prevent a war that would *for sure* drag most of Olympus into it, when they have other self-absorbed things to do, like rape humans and be an eternal tormentor to the offspring of said rape and cheat on each other (Aphrodite). I can see Zeus with furrowed brow buried in hand grumbling "You people are insane. You're making *ME* act like an adult. Fine! The winds won't blow until you kill your own daughter. ... sigh. You guys are just... SET on doing this, aren't you? Okay, whatever."
So, to summarize the whole saga of these characters, Paris made the mistake of getting involved in a spat between gods (apparently having never read ANY Greek mythology, which demonstrates again and again that this is a TERRIBLE idea), kidnaps (or woos) Helen, who was married to Menelaus, so he gets his brother Agammenon to round up a bunch of Greeks to murder the entire city of Troy. But the gods won't let them go murder Troy until Agammenon murders his daughter, which he does. So they go off to Troy, where they all behave like a bunch of divas, a bunch of dramatic stuff happens, a lot of people end up dying for stupid reasons, and then, Troy being sufficiently murdered, everyone goes home. Agammenon gets murdered by his wife for murdering their daughter, then their son murders his mother for murdering his father, thus continuing the cycle of violence until there's no one left to murder. Meanwhile, Odysseus pissed off the gods, gets a lot of his crew murdered (and does a fair bit of murdering himself), until he gets to murder all the people who were being dicks to his wife, and lives happily ever after. Meanwhile meanwhile, Aeneas has his own murder-filled adventures, murders his own city's worth of people, founds the Latin states, and lives happily ever after. The whole saga is just full of people making bad decisions and getting killed. At least its better than Jason, who got randomly murdered by his own ship years after his adventures ended, for no apparent reason -- seriously, what was the point of including that last tidbit? Why couldn't they just leave it at "he lived happily ever after?"
watching a video this old, it's incredible to me that Red made no comments about how this is only *one* version of the story, that every version is different, etc. she was a baby, only just starting with the whole summarizing classics thing-ie 🥺
The fact that "Muppet Treasure Island" was your childhood (and not "The Muppets Take Manhattan") makes me feel very, very old. I think I'm going to go out on the porch and yell at some kids to get off my lawn now...
For a project I did in my second year of my acting degree (currently in third year) we actually used Iphigenia with a few other stories to devise a story about parents and children. I played the messenger whilst my fellow actor was Iphigenia. I really loved learning all about the story and I wish I found this video and your other videos sooner, it would have helped so much! Regardless I love your content! Also fuck Agamemnon, what a dick
Another excellent production I love this song as well and the fact that you play a Muppets song at the end of this is so delicious. I want to be your best friend.
Great video. Just one correction though. The winds where actually blowing too hard for them to sail. But since the movie was filmed more or less on the actual meeting place of the Greek forces the director just went with the idea of no wind because the wind wasn't blowing at the time. Just think about it, those boats have oars. If there is no wind why not row??
I have a small question. About the ending with Iphigenia getting sacrificed, I've actually heard the orginal myths as Artemis saving her right before she was stabbed and replacing her with a deer. The only reason I actually believe the sort of happy ending version is because of another one of Euripides' plays, "Iphigenia at Tauris." She is shown to be a priestess of Artemis there and helps Orestes escape from the island.
Euripides version of events (her survival at the end of Iphigenia at Aulis and her rescue in Iphigenia at Tauris) are based on a variation of the myth, however the most popular version is that she was sacrificed in Aulis. I do like Euripides' variation, though - it adds that sweet, sweet tragic irony to the fact that Clytemnestra killed Agamemnon for her murder.
First time I read this story it ended with Artemis saving Iphigenia and taking her off to become a huntress and all the gods who'd been blocked the wind decided that Agamemnon passed on method marks.
Yay for Sailing for Adventure at the end. Got to love Muppet Treasure Island. Gods, haven't had this much drama since Antigone and the Oedipus Cycle, which I see you covered the second play from.
I just found this channel yesterday and I've been making way up from the beginning. I just _had_ to mention how great it was that you used that song from Muppet Treasure Island. God, I haven't seen that movie in a decade.
i just found your guys is videos and i love them. but this one takes the cake the muppets at the end i have been laughing for 10 mins now. great work guys!
This was always my favorite myth for some reason as a kid... I put it on a poster for a school project I'm so glad that this lesser known myth got a video~!
Hey Red, You mentioned twice in this video that you would cover the Oresteia. I understand that you're both very busy with your respective projects, but I was wondering if you and Blue have plans to eventually go over it? Love your videos and I'd love to hear your take on this play!
"She proceeds to get murdered by Agamemnon. But hey, at least he looked sad while doing it."
Thanos and Gamora, anyone?
kradeiz *he is speaking the language of the gods*
Thanos really yeeted his daughter off a cliff to ice out his wrist lmao
@@tommyscott8511 Gotta respect the drip.
@@Silverwind87 Oh mad respect the man/grape/nutsack hybrid.
Nichol Kola Him too.
"I can't get married! What will I tell my hetero-life-mate Patroclus?" Literally Achilles summed up in one sentence.
One of the best bromances in ancient literature
Yeah especially after the whole pretending to be a woman, getting a princess pregnant, only to be bailed by his boyfriend and Oddeyseus, Achilles probably would be tired of this crap if Iphigenia approached him.
Also, fun fact, that kid grows up to be a fucking psychopath.
Yes
Except he actually had a wife and then there was the whole Briseis situation... regardless of whether he and Patroclus were lovers, he liked women too.
@@fictional-girl_05 I know that lmao I was just making a joke about the video
Achilles, when confronted with a wife: "I can't get married, what will I tell my hetro-life-mate Patroclus??"
heh he doesn't even stop to question how he got sacked with marriage just that he can't go through with it
Hetero-life-mate. Totally..
Bromance at its finest
@@sugarcultist4932 The b is too much :p
Krankar Volund wdym?
So THAT'S why Agamemnon was killed by his wife and her boyfriend. Like he thought everything would just be cool after getting back home. lol
Rye dude probably should've saw that coming 😂
he was also a royal douche upon returning XD
In the play, Clytemnestra actually said something like, 'don't make me a bad woman' and when I read that I was like, "Well, she warned you."
I thought it was his son that killed him... Or I might be confusing the myths..nevermind
Persico Solangelo nah he killed his mother for revenge....don't see why, but whatever
There is a version where Artemis regrets her demand of killing Iphigenia. Before Iphigenia is killed by the fire, Artemis puts a deer in her place and makes Iphigenia a priestess. Later on, her brother Orestes finds her somewhere on a mountain. I don't really know if that last thing is true, but I thought that that was the alternative ending.
It is. It's also the story that Goethe picked up and based "Iphigenie auf Tauris" on.
yeah I needed to read that one in school. Would have helped to have read this story first
Oh right, Goethe... I only knew the opera version.
I remember reading a book like this but I can’t remember the name and it’s driving me crazy
Greek gods, regretting things to have to do with mortals? Pretty sure if you look up the word "impossible", the entire Greek pantheon would be right there.
"I can't get married! What will happen to my hetero life-mate Patroclus?!" is an actual sentence said by Achilles in the Illiad.
Yes
Except he actually had a wife and then there was the whole Briseis situation... regardless of whether he and Patroclus were lovers, he liked women too.
In the version I'm familiar with, the reason they need to sacrifice her is because Agamemnon was in charge of making sacrifices to all the gods, but he forgot Artemis, who (being the goddess of virgins) demands his virgin daughter as a sacrifice (apparently the gods have ridiculous late fees). She is then super impressed by Iphigenia's courage and willingness to die for the, er, 'greater good' and snatches her up just before they kill her and tells them she'll let them just sacrifice a deer if Iphigenia becomes her priestess.
I rather like the modern interpretation of sacrificing virgins. We called it dating. With benefits.
“apparently the gods have ridiculous late fees“ - I‘m stealing that.
@@jonasdatlas4668
same.
In version I read, the story continues when Orestes has to get a golden statue of Artemis, when he gets captures and is about to be sacrificed, but pristess's sword slips and she proclaims it as bad sign and postpone the sacrifice.
After which she helps Orestess escape.
In case you're wondering why Achilles is concerned about being beaten up: that's because his invlulnerability wasn't made up yet in the times of Homer and Euripides.
The first one we know mentioning it is Statius in the first century AD.
In any earlier works, Achilles should just be considered a really good soldier, but not 99% undestructable.
And by the time he is mostly invulnerable, Achilles probably has the most random weak spot ever. Is there even a reason why it is his heel?
@@corabranch266 gotta be somewhere since his mom basically squished all his human frailty into one spot by dunking him in a magic river. So, he ends up weak in the spot she hung on to him by when dipping. Better an ankle than a wrist. Presumably, he couldn't be dunked 100% without falling apart putting on socks or whatever.
@@twistedtachyon5877 why not, idk, the armpit. or the inner elbow.
@@corabranch266 From what I remember in the myth surrounding Achilles’ indestructability (is that even a word? Is now..) is that when he was a baby his mother wanted him to be safe from all harm and was told that if she dipped him a special river (forgot the name) it would make him protected, or something like that.
The river was very swift so she had to hold onto him or he’d be swept away and drown. So she grabbed him by the heel and dipped him in, so every part of him but the heel was magically protected because his mom wasn’t able to get that part of him in the river. That’s why his heel is his weak spot, and that’s why the tendon on the back of the leg stemming from the heel into the calf is called the Achilles tendon. Because if it gets damaged you’re screwed.
@@corabranch266 It's because his mother (a nymph) didn't want him to die so dipped him in the River Styx, but had to hold him somewhere so the ankle she held him by was the only way he could be killed.
"Hold on, hold on. Dying actually sounds super rad!"
-Iphegenia
-me for no reason in the middle of 7th grade
"There's no wind so all of Greece's army is landlocked"
Oarsmen on the greek ships: Am I a joke to you?
Yeah, good luck rowing all the way across the Aegean Sea. They'd all be dead on their feet or literally dead by the time they got to Troy's shores.
@@samrevlej9331 I'm pretty sure that oarsmen on galleys and triremes are not there for fun :p
Like according to modern reconstructions, the most likely way of propulsion of the triremes were with sails and oars in the same time, just oars would be just slower ^^
And also, they don't have to row all the way across, just to catch up the wind to... help them to go faster as they would continue rowing ^^'
@@krankarvolund7771 I fail to see your point. Not being there for fun doesn't mean they were worked to death. These guys were citizens, not slaves. And even if the fastest way was rowing *and* sails, that's just in close combat, when you have to ram your ship into another one. Rowers couldn't manage the entire trip, sails had to be used at some point. And here, the idea with "no wind" is that there isn't a single breeze close enough that they can get to it just by rowing. It's a myth, not a weather-accurate historical account.
@@samrevlej9331 You know you can take pauses during your trip, right? ^^'
Like you make them work 4 or 6 hours per day, you will still be closer from your goal ^^
As for full speed, from what I've found, Xenophon tell us that triremes could make 20km per day. And this speed can't be reached by sail only, judging by the trireme, nor by rowing only, so they probably used both at the time ^^
And yes, historians knew that oarsmens probably didn't worked all day and considered it in the calculations ^^
@@krankarvolund7771 I think you're missing the point. This isn't a historical account, it's a myth. The damn point is, they can't take to the sea.
"Odysseus, the only smart guy in the greek army"
This is Diomedes erasure and I will not stand for it
"There are two braincells in the greek army, shared by odysseus and Diomedes"
"Achilles gets RIGHTEOUSLY pissed" XD
The gods weren't allowing winds to blow because Agamemnon forgot to make the harvest sacrifice to Artemis. Which makes it really odd that the required sacrifice was a young maiden.
Actually, Agamemnon had killed Artemis' sacred deer, thus causing her wrath. That's why Artemis stopped the winds and that's why the sacrifice needed to be something dear to Agamemnon. According to another version of the story, Artemis saves Iphigenia at the last second, putting a deer in her place and making her priestess in one of her sacred temples.
Look, the gods didn't have tinder back in the day, Artemis was probably desperate.
@@Lanoira13 What do you mean?
@@CJCruz-rf9vz I'm making a joke that she wanted a girlfriend, so she demanded a "sacrifice".
@@Lanoira13 Oh okay. I suspected it but I wanted to make sure.
Hey it's not a two woman race! There's the woman Agamemnon abducted from her priest of Apollo father, the one Agamemnon stole from Archilles, the princess/prophetess Agamemnon brought home ....wait.... I'm sensing a trend here...
Yujing Yue yeah he isn’t the best guy.... not like... Sisyphus levels of bad but.... yeah
Alberts Choise Sisyphus isn’t that bad. Yeah he locked Thanatos in a trunk but it’s human nature to want to escape death. He was a bit of a dick as opposed to Agamemnon who’s a monster.
@@ilana3783 He also murdered all his guests.
@@tanyanikolaevagizdova6571 And stole from them.
Plus, even without that, we could always make the argument the reason he got punished so badly was because he _personally_ offended the three deities who were in control of his afterlife by trying to con them.
@@ilana3783 I honestly can’t remember if it was Sisyphus or not but I think there was one version of the myth where he tried to impress the gods by killing and cooking his son? I’m not sure if it was about Sisyphus or another person though
When reading the Odyssey I didn't know about any of this. I have gone from despising Agamemnon's wife to cheering her on.
you'd love the Oresteia
you'd love the Oresteia
This is one of those convoluted tales with a lot of backstory required to put it into perspective. When Helen was being put up for sale--I mean, offered in marriage--a lot of men showed up to win her hand. In order to avoid the inevitable bickering, rioting and bloodshed that would happen with a lot of armed men fighting for one girl, Odysseus the Clever proposed this solution: 1) The girl would choose her husband and right away (so there would be no suspicion of her father conferring with her beforehand in order to make the best choice, i.e., one suitable to him [rich, of royal or noble blood, e.g.]) and 2) that all the men pledge beforehand to come to the aid of the winner should he ever require it. Since every man thought he would be the lucky sod, they all readily agreed to these conditions. So when Menelaus lost Helen to Paris of Troy, he immediately called in his marker and demanded that all the losers--including his own brother--rally to aid him in retrieving his adulterous wife. That meant that Agamemnon had to help Menelaus, even to the extent of sacrificing his own daughter.
Well, hang on to your όπλον, because Clytemnestra's story is far from over.
Sophia De Tricht I see you putting that Greek education to good use.
An oracle telling the commander of an army he must kill his daughter so the gods will let him advance?
Wow now I know where Game of Thrones got their inspiration from.
It could have also come from the story of Jephtha's daughter.
Except of course in Song of Fire and Ice/Game of Thrones, it's all for naught.
Yeah, but that's because the people running the show are hacks and needed SOMETHING to rip off once they ran out of book to copy.
+Areanyusernamesleft It didn't HAPPEN in the books. The showwriters just REALLY hate Stannis.
L. T C. Yeah but this one came first
When you've read The Song of Achilles
If you’ve read Song Of Achilles, I definitely recommend “The Silence Of The Girls”
Sadly, Song of Achilles and Circe aren't accurate to greek mythology at ALL.
Wasn’t that just written like less than a decade ago?
@@NapaCat To be fair, I don't think that mythological accuracy was the main aim of those books. Though, a little more of it would have been nice.
I don't get it?
"Wait, what? I can't be getting married! What will I tell my hetero life mate Patroclus!" THIS IS WHY PATROCHILLES IS MY OTP!!!
DiamondCat64 ikr.
DiamondCat64 You would love The Song of Achilles. It's essentially a fanfic based on the Illiad and other myths about Patroclus and Achilles told from the perspective where Achilles and Patroclus were in a relationship. It's very sad, but sooooooo good.
Patrochilles: A ship so good even Plato supported it.
@@merrittanimation7721 but Achilles is obviously bottom and Plato said he's top so really Alexander The Kinda Ok got it right
I've always called it patchilles
"Nothing could convince a father to murder his daughter...." Nothing but the infinity stones.
* points finger * I understood that reference!
Sorry, but Agammenon swore two vows. One to his brother, to defend his marriage with Helen. And another with the Artemis, to give her his most precious possession for dishonoring her. The Greeks were BIG on the whole vows thing. So he pretty much HAD to kill his daughter. Like you say, you can't piss off the gods.
Levon Gevorgyan also I don't know if this helps but my college professor had us read the Odyssey in one class and in the other he gave a summary of this while we read Agamemnon. He explained the importance of hospitality between guest and host. The suitors violated this through out the Odyssey. Paris kidnapped Helen as a guest of Agamemnon. This was a slap to the face for Agamemnon and he had to rectify that. Not going would be an insult to Zeus, and you don't want Zeus mad at you. So I don't see Agamemnon as jerk in this case but as someone stuck between two bad choices. Can't really judge off the Iliad cause I haven't read it.
@@williamcollum4748 Agamnenon was a jerk later on, but not in this instance.
"Sailing for adventure in the wine-dark, wet thing."
Imagine my surprise when I learned that that whole "wine dark" thing is literally, *LITERALLY* because the Greek language didn't come with a word for the color blue which is on their flag. What an awesome language. Like, I'm not being sarcastic, I really love the Greek language. Generally a pain in the ass to learn from English, but there's a lot of overlap with the vocabulary, considering how most of our technical words, words for basically anything that grows, shits, and/or dies; and words for anything that moves over time have their roots in Greek.
Not the most complicated language I've ever learned, though. That distinction is split between Tibetan and Mohawk. MAN, they're complicated...
YES!
immediately liked this video right after you said "fuck this guy(Agamemnon)"
Yeah, fuck Agamemnon!
iAteYour Cupcakes ........RWBY..............
Red gives Agamemnon a hard time though, sure, he's not the greatest Greek hero and he can be quite a dick, but he absolutely not the worst either. This whole war with Troy was eventually caused by an oath proposed by Odysseus, Agamemnon was in that way simply a man of his word, in the Illiad you see countless moments in which he shows to be an honourable person: he agrees for Menelaos and Paris to fight and would've ended the war right there and then if it wasn't for Aphrodite, he admits his wrongs to Achilles and does all he can to get him back...
I saw that film many years ago. It was sooo sad, someone behind me in the cinema burst into tears during Iphigenia’s speech and had to leave the cinema. Achilles, moved, says he wishes it was real because he would love to make such a brave girl his wife.
One time I got to play Iphigenia in a middle school play (where I was one of three actors who actually liked being there), and I got a really beautiful and comfy costume. I got to be the Priestess version of Iphigenia, and I was also holding an antler and a small jug of grape juice (it was supposed to be blood) the whole time. Anyway I dropped the jug during one of my rehearsals and while the jug was fine I stained some guy’s white Jordans and I felt bad but it was incredibly funny bc he played Orestes and he had supposedly just climbed a mountain and once he reached the peak there was a girl holding an antler who threw blood at him
I know this is a super old post but wouldn't cranberry juice have made for better fake blood than grape juice?
Bruh my teacher told us Patroclus was a hollies cousin because “there’s only two things Achilles loves, his cousin and himself” but it makes so much more sense that they were homie sexual
To be fair that wouldn't exactly rule anything else out with these stories.
Per the epic cycle: Agamemnon murdered a pretty deer in a sacred grove watched over personally by Artemis. So now Artemis demands the king to sacrifice his own daughter. The fake wedding thing is supported by multiple sources and utilized by Euripedes for the play. Apparently, according to some other sources, Achilles didn't know the wedding was happening until the last minute. Some say Achilles burst in to save her, some say Artemis swapped her out with an animal. There's plenty of versions of this story. Personally I prefer the one where she is saved by Artemis, since her supposed death is what triggers the whole "kill Agamemnon" plot by the dude's entire family.
Achilles: what are you guys doing?
Soldiers: if you won’t let us kill Agamemnons daughter then we’re going to beat you up!
Achilles: yeah let’s see how well that goes.
I know this came out like four years ago but the Muppet Treasure Island song at the end still makes me happy
Achilles being invulnerable is a much later story than the Homeric works, so it's super inconsistent how much damage he can take in different stories.
I still hold Muppet Treasure Island as one of my favorite movies.
""Take a cruise," you said. "See the world," you said. Now here we are, stuck on the front of this stupid ship"
"Well, it could be worse. We could be stuck in the audience."
--Statler and Waldorf
My first fourth wall break and a joke I have never forgotten
It's so trippy watching the videos from before Red started sketching everything.
I got the BIGGEST grin on my face as soon as I heard "Sailing for Adventure." I love this channel.
I thought that the reason he killed his daughter was because the Greek Goddess Artemis overheard him bragging about a deer he killed and how he did better that she would have done, and so she stopped the winds in revenge, and he was told sacrificing her would be the only way to make the wind blow again? I saw Electra a few months ago, and I think that's what they said?
Love your videos BTW (especially Shakespeare! You gonna do Henry V or the Taming of the Shrew anytime soon?)
Iphigenia survives. Artemis spares her life and has them sacrifice a deer instead. Iphigenia later become Artemis' priestess.
It differs depending on the version of the story. In the original, she is sacrificed, but as the times progressed in Greece the idea that a goddess would request a human sacrifice, specifically Artemis, became repugnant so instead of her dying it become her magically transported away. This was the case in the classical age, that is to say, Athena's golden age, which was when the plays were written. Keep in mind that at the time Agamemnon was supposed to be a sympathetic character, so far as the play went, so this change would have justified his greatly, also would be more suited for a play as her being alive could serve as a great climax in the Orestia.
xxxnatxcutexxx Actually I'm pretty sure that's exactly why it happened.
He killed a white dear that belonged to her.
Oh my gosh, I love the thought of a bunch of guys singing that song on the way to the fustercluck that is troy.
It fits so well with the absurdity of it all!
Achilles: *shows up*
Me: "Oh look, it's your sexually ambiguous angry little friend..."
Ah yes, sailing for Trojan adventures on the "big blue wet thing."
We read a part of Iphigeneia in Greek some weeks ago, her monologue to try and convince her father NOT to kill her namely, pulling her mother and youngest brother into the monologue right before resigning to her fate. Quite moving and beautiful I must say.
Awesome video :D
Over three years late to this party, but I've just recently subscribed and have been going back and watching all the videos. One thing I absolutely adore about this channel is Red's selections for outro music, especially her covers, but holy crap this one is special. So much nostalgia. Great video. Great song. Kudos.
I LOVE your choice of song for the ending, bravo! XD
And yes it was a part of my childhood too
What was it called?
"Sailing for Adventure" from Muppet Treasure Island.
I can't say how much it makes me giggle to hear it as "BUT THIS AIN'T NO DISNEY" comes up in the end text.
"there's an alternate ending where he kills a deer instead"
wait a minute, a deity demands you sacrifice your child but then it's enough to sacrifice an animal? where have I heard that story before?
Don't forget that the whole Helen thing was started by one goddess getting three other goddesses to fight, so she really takes home, like, fifth place at best.
Okay, that ending got me to burst out in laughing. Now imagining the greek hero's as their muppet counterparts.
I wonder who would be ajax mayor and who the lesser
Major: I forget his name, the big brown giant monster. Lesser: Rizzo. Menelaus: Link Hogthrob
3:45 Just because he can't DIE from it doesn't mean it's not REALLY ANNOYING to get constantly beat up by a bunch of big strong dudes. :p
OW! Quit it. OW! Quit it. OW! Quit it.
I think of Aggie as a mob boss like Tony Soprano. The Troy business was never about helping his brother but commanding all these Greek city-states as close to a high king as you can get.
where is the Oristia?
Hopeful that's her next video.
SleonHikari She just posted it!
yay, now I can watch a story where a person with my name exists.
Right here: czcams.com/video/9kpGhivh05k/video.html
The song choice at the end made me spit my tea clear across the room, so thanks for that Red.
Why do I find it charming that I can hear Red hit their mic, also that the quality has extremely bumped over like 7-8 years
Hearing "invade Troy" makes me laugh bc my name is Troy
A LIKELY story, MAX. *visible suspicion*
better prepare yo anus, boy
Ha Ha
Sure it is, *_Mars..._*
Just imagine: The Muppets Iliad
Now I can’t get that song out of my head! Damn you Agamemnon!!
2:36 CALVIN AND HOBBES!!! edit: great choice! the comic is very philosophical.
The alternative ending is far from a Disney one. Hint: she is part of Orestes' story following the murder of their mother.
Also, as the leader of the army, Agamemnon had no choice but to make the sacrifice. As for why he was there in the first place (aside from the loot), all rulers in Greece had taken an oath to aid each other if the need arose ...and with Paris eloping with Helen, it did. Oaths were serious business in ancient Greece.
I wonder if this inspired the whole Stannis burning Shireen thing from GoT.
or earlier The biblical story of Jephthah's daughter, not a carbon copy but a similar story resulting in a father killing a daughter.
yeah, kind of shame that D(um)nD(umer) left out the part from the book where Stannis left Shireen with his crazy ass wife and Red woman in the Black castle. But hey, Goth reached (bad) fanfic level of ASOIAF long before 5th season and because GRUMM will never finished the books Jon Sue still lays cold dead in snow, Kelly C is stuck in the middle of Dothraki see with cholera and Stannis is on way to pull a tactical genious that would make CREEED proud
Luckiller 01 CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!
yes
@@luckiller019 translation. Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
0:05 Omg, my thoughts on Agamemnon exactly!
"Sailing for adventure on the big blue wet thing" was the perfect ending to this!
Now I want to see a cinematic version that actually ends with the Greeks sailing off into the sunset singing that song!
I was hoping the Orestia would have been summarized by now. :( Although I might be biased due to my upcoming exam on it. Anyway, love your work on the Iliad, it was a lovely useful study break and quite helpful. Keep up the amazing work.
I love listening to your videos while I draw. They’re so interesting and make stories that I’m too lazy to read sound more interesting to me
You're not alone in that Muppets' song being a key part of your childhood.
Oh my God, Muppet Treasure Island? Woooooow, what a blast from the past that is. Definitely one of my favorite versions of that classic story. Hey ho, we'll go, anywhere the wind is blowing....
Red: "This ain't a Disney movie!"
Also Red: * plays Muppets music *
I feel like the whole "the wind won't blow until you kill Iphegenia" thing was supposed to be something that doesn't happen. Like a last ditch attempt to prevent a war that would *for sure* drag most of Olympus into it, when they have other self-absorbed things to do, like rape humans and be an eternal tormentor to the offspring of said rape and cheat on each other (Aphrodite).
I can see Zeus with furrowed brow buried in hand grumbling "You people are insane. You're making *ME* act like an adult. Fine! The winds won't blow until you kill your own daughter.
...
sigh. You guys are just... SET on doing this, aren't you?
Okay, whatever."
Whenever Agammemnon is mentioned, I hear Jean Ralphio's voice going, "He's the 🎶 wooOOOooorst 🎶"
So, to summarize the whole saga of these characters, Paris made the mistake of getting involved in a spat between gods (apparently having never read ANY Greek mythology, which demonstrates again and again that this is a TERRIBLE idea), kidnaps (or woos) Helen, who was married to Menelaus, so he gets his brother Agammenon to round up a bunch of Greeks to murder the entire city of Troy. But the gods won't let them go murder Troy until Agammenon murders his daughter, which he does. So they go off to Troy, where they all behave like a bunch of divas, a bunch of dramatic stuff happens, a lot of people end up dying for stupid reasons, and then, Troy being sufficiently murdered, everyone goes home. Agammenon gets murdered by his wife for murdering their daughter, then their son murders his mother for murdering his father, thus continuing the cycle of violence until there's no one left to murder. Meanwhile, Odysseus pissed off the gods, gets a lot of his crew murdered (and does a fair bit of murdering himself), until he gets to murder all the people who were being dicks to his wife, and lives happily ever after. Meanwhile meanwhile, Aeneas has his own murder-filled adventures, murders his own city's worth of people, founds the Latin states, and lives happily ever after. The whole saga is just full of people making bad decisions and getting killed.
At least its better than Jason, who got randomly murdered by his own ship years after his adventures ended, for no apparent reason -- seriously, what was the point of including that last tidbit? Why couldn't they just leave it at "he lived happily ever after?"
"Kidnaps (or woos)..." The distinction is blurry in that time... :D
Greek Mythology in a nutshell.
Jason just sleeping under his boat:
Prow: Aight Imma head out now-
I just love Red's undying hatred of Agamemnon so much you guys.
I just have to say even tho your old videos don’t have your drawings it’s still good and fun to watch
"But at least he looked sad while doing it."
Seeing all the clips from the Iphegenia movie made me remember how much I love it. Gotta track down a copy now!
watching a video this old, it's incredible to me that Red made no comments about how this is only *one* version of the story, that every version is different, etc. she was a baby, only just starting with the whole summarizing classics thing-ie 🥺
The fact that "Muppet Treasure Island" was your childhood (and not "The Muppets Take Manhattan") makes me feel very, very old. I think I'm going to go out on the porch and yell at some kids to get off my lawn now...
*Muppets begins playing* me: WHEN THE COURSE IS LAID AND ANCHOR'S WEIGHED A SAILORS BLOOD BEGINS RACING!
legitimately the best choice of a closing song I cannot even tell you.
I absolutely love how she opens the video🤣
The muppet treasure island song as the outro fkn killed me, y'all are the best ☠️
I GOT SO HYPE AS SOON AS THE END SONG STARTED PLAYING GOD I LOVE YOU
Can't like this video enough for the song chic at the end. Now I have something new to listen to during my break.
" well you take the silver medal in second race so yeah" I honestly laughed really hard
Hi - I just wanted to say thank you for these videos! They are amazing!
“FXXK THIS GUY!”
I love this dude
For a project I did in my second year of my acting degree (currently in third year) we actually used Iphigenia with a few other stories to devise a story about parents and children. I played the messenger whilst my fellow actor was Iphigenia. I really loved learning all about the story and I wish I found this video and your other videos sooner, it would have helped so much! Regardless I love your content!
Also fuck Agamemnon, what a dick
I know it's been a long time but maybe we'll get to see Oresteia? :)
"long time"
0:43 Because no ancient Greek ship EVER came equipped with OARS...
Wolfeson28 go ahead and row across the Aegean Sea. Then walk into a battlefield.
Have fun.
I love your soundtracks and thank you for being so awsome
Another excellent production I love this song as well and the fact that you play a Muppets song at the end of this is so delicious. I want to be your best friend.
Yes, a priestess of Artemis, who Agamemnon offended in the first place by killing one of her deer.
Great video. Just one correction though. The winds where actually blowing too hard for them to sail. But since the movie was filmed more or less on the actual meeting place of the Greek forces the director just went with the idea of no wind because the wind wasn't blowing at the time. Just think about it, those boats have oars. If there is no wind why not row??
I have a small question. About the ending with Iphigenia getting sacrificed, I've actually heard the orginal myths as Artemis saving her right before she was stabbed and replacing her with a deer. The only reason I actually believe the sort of happy ending version is because of another one of Euripides' plays, "Iphigenia at Tauris." She is shown to be a priestess of Artemis there and helps Orestes escape from the island.
Euripides version of events (her survival at the end of Iphigenia at Aulis and her rescue in Iphigenia at Tauris) are based on a variation of the myth, however the most popular version is that she was sacrificed in Aulis. I do like Euripides' variation, though - it adds that sweet, sweet tragic irony to the fact that Clytemnestra killed Agamemnon for her murder.
a smart person...
Euripides, I sew-a-dese
It could have been that the winds were blowing too hard, or the people there were just idiots.
My God, that ending song! *chef's kiss*
First time I read this story it ended with Artemis saving Iphigenia and taking her off to become a huntress and all the gods who'd been blocked the wind decided that Agamemnon passed on method marks.
Yay for Sailing for Adventure at the end. Got to love Muppet Treasure Island. Gods, haven't had this much drama since Antigone and the Oedipus Cycle, which I see you covered the second play from.
The song at the end was perfect.
OSP Blue BLUE SENPAI
1:10, in the version I read, it was because Agamemnon bragged that he was an even mightier hunter than Artemis was.
YOU ARE BRILLIANT. ... continue making the world a better place. (still wiping tears of laughter) thx.
*clip of entire audience facepalming at Agamemnon.
Also, best opening ever.
I just found this channel yesterday and I've been making way up from the beginning. I just _had_ to mention how great it was that you used that song from Muppet Treasure Island. God, I haven't seen that movie in a decade.
i just found your guys is videos and i love them. but this one takes the cake the muppets at the end i have been laughing for 10 mins now. great work guys!
This was always my favorite myth for some reason as a kid... I put it on a poster for a school project I'm so glad that this lesser known myth got a video~!
The song at the end made me want to go watch Muppet Treasure Island again just for Tim Curry and the Muppets.
PERFECT song choice
Love the song at the end
It's kind of fitting how war usually involves people sending their children to die.
Hey Red, You mentioned twice in this video that you would cover the Oresteia. I understand that you're both very busy with your respective projects, but I was wondering if you and Blue have plans to eventually go over it? Love your videos and I'd love to hear your take on this play!