Making speakers disappear
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- čas přidán 7. 11. 2021
- Even following The Audiophile's Guide www.psaudio.com/products/the-... some voices and instruments still appear to come from the speakers themselves. Is this normal and what can be done about it?
- Věda a technologie
I used The Audiophile's Guide to get the best sound my system has ever had. The singer is IN my living room. The drums are BEHIND the singer. Synths fill the room with ethereal notes. I even solved a decades long problem with imaging by handling First Reflections.
That Guide is a godsend!
My speakers once disappeared. They never did catch the burglar.
Exactly...disappears is a misnomer...my system is pretty awesome, and depending on more than the recording..sometimes you get directional and atmospheric anomalies. Most of us dont have huge collections of audiophile recordings. Ever listen to what we call MUSIC? Speakers exist. Get over it.
being a guitarist and an audiophile has always been an asset to me i believe. As a guitarist i understand that every thing matters. from pickups and string guage to the way i hold the pick or use my fingers and nails. however if the material being played sucks it doesn't make any difference that an expensive plank of wood is being used. As an audiophile the same applies everything along the signal path matters and can have an effect, but none of it makes a difference if the material being played is poor
Well said. So how do you feel being on both sides of the fence? Are you torn between hearing your techniques pay off vs the end result of the recording? Your testimony reminds me of Mark Knopfler and his involvement in the whole process. He wears 3 hats as the creator, manager of the recording, and the listener.
@@LuxAudio389 in that constant battle I tend to remind myself that while I practice Steve Vai techniques for example, they must be applied like David Gilmour would do. Everything must be in respect to the music, otherwise the emotion rarely comes through in my opinion. People complain about particularly guitarists not having feeling or emotion, and this is rarely true. They are just failing to respect the space enough to allow the emotion to be expressed properly.
That said I am no Mark Knopfler! I think he is another great at the balance of pulling his punches while respecting the music and understanding he is a part of a soundscape even while taking center stage for a solo.
I apologize if this answer isnt very coherent.
Also as a fun note my favorite way to practice at home is in my hifi room. I have a small tube amp paired with the main system so that I come in just a bit off center in the mix to the right and it is a very pleasing experience overall. My wife and kids really enjoy it.
Despite what Paul says about how a speaker should sound many people prefer bright in your face bombastic speakers and manufacturers are out there that cater to that group of people. I personally prefer Paul's way of thinking but as in all things audio we all hear differently and have different ideas about how our music should sound.
If the person mixing the track puts a sound in only one of the speakers (hard pan L or R) then it will also appear to come direct from that speaker. The illusion of sound stage requires sound from both speakers at least a tiny bit. Many albums are mixed on systems with no sound stage so the person mixing never hears how the sound pops out of one of the speakers, breaking the illusion of sound stage. I'd say one in ten albums have this issue. It's kind of sad to find this on an album that you otherwise like.
The Beetles Abby Road for example. Most primitive stereo recording. One instrument bangs away in the left speaker, then something else from the right and then some stuff from the center. I like the music, but cannot listen to the cd I have.
I’d say 1/10 doesn’t have this issue
Many 1960's stereo rock/pop recordings use that hard L/R mix. I often wonder why labels don't produce a properly mixed stereo version when remastering these old titles. I know some purists will complain that the mix is no longer "original" but when the original mix was inherently bad, why not offer it in a mix that sounds good rather than original?
@@user-od9iz9cv1w and still in that same recording there's music that is between the speakers, and behind. I think most Beatles recordings were multichannel mono, from which they 'made' the pseudo-stereo version. I prefer the mono versions myself, where I don't have to be annoyed by how flat it sounds.
@@ptbfrch That makes sense. I can remember first hearing it in the 60's on a cheap record player. We were all amazed at how it would zip around from one speaker to the other. But now I'd far rather hear mono so as not to be distracted by these early stereo antics.
Paul a clearly a huge Spinal Tap fan. Look, his Stonehenge themed listening room is only missing a few Druids!! I thought those speakers were big, but then Paul walked back between them…they’re huge!!! Great work Paul, many thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Thank you for asking this question!I have often wondered the same thing now I finally know the answer!
And now something completely different: I love the way you dignify your employee Bill in your "Stereophile" ad. Well done!
Great explanation! Maybe it is also good to explain that the depth of the soundstage goes far, far beyond the front wall in a right setup.
Pink Floyd 'Wish You Were Here' A set up that makes David Gilmour sound like he's in the room with you on the intro acoustic guitar part (43 sec in ) is bang on.
the IRS V are dipole so it's more easy to reproduce soundstage (depth, width) etc
Ya, with 175 speakers front and back will do that.
This is why AC-DC guitars always come from the speakers, they are close mic'd and hard panned. Or any close mic recording that is panned will always come directly from the speaker doesn't matter where it's positioned. If the mic is further away and panned then the sound should emanate wider than the speakers. Ideally.
I have many music video albums, and on most of them a singer is almost eating the microphone. And yes, their voice is right at my speakers. As Paul says, the speaker is the reverse of a microphone.
I would like to know if it is possible to make my speakers disappear regardless of my setup or the file type. I’m using a pair of AudioEngine 5 Bamboo speakers, paired with a Lenovo Yoga 730 laptop and an MQA-compatible Dragonfly Red DAC. I’ve written about this before, but I’m still noticing that Hi-Fi still sounds more open even though it lacks detail, and MQA includes every detail even though it sounds muffled. Before my speakers started breaking in, it was kind of the other way around - the Hi-Fi files presented slightly muffled audio, whereas the MQA setting presented slightly muffled audio, but more of the high frequencies could be heard and the overall presentation appeared to sound quite harsh on certain songs. Is it the recording, the mastering, the MQA-processing, my laptop, my DAC, or the possibility that my speakers haven’t completely broken in yet? I’m still learning, as MQA is still quite new to my ears.
Home theater any suggestions do we went from back of the speakers too?
When hearing high frequency signals, like hi-hats, depending in the recording they apear coming from a specific speaker.
Also, my sound stage occurs between the speakers, but on some recordings the sound surrounds me, i can hear sounds coming from above, and even behind me, as if was activating surround sound. I don't know if it should be this way. Should I test the disappearance while eyes closed or in the dark so that I can't tell where exactly are my speakers located in the room?
Hi paul, can you tell me why so many hi-fi enthusiasts, I can't call them audiophile, think that upgrade audiophile cables are snake oil, is it because the hearing is not as good as they think it is, or something else.
So it happens that speakers are placed where the sounstage is projected (what a coincidence) and some sounds will be located in the speakers, but we tend to pay more atrention to those, keep this in mind. That's why "the speakers are disappearing" is not to be taken literally, it's more (in my opinion) like a good PS audio marketing thing. With all due respect to Paul's opinion, I'm sure he has more experience that anyone around, the real goal we should search is "the speakers are everywhere" in a way that there aren't no blank spots in our soundstage, while you can precisely pinpoint every single location of the instruments, if possible even in the front/back and up/down axis. Regarding to have the soundstage located behind the loudspeakers requires what 99% of us don't have: dedicated listening rooms that are big enough to allow 1 meter space all around the speakers, and then subwoofers to replace the bass that's lost when you take the speakers away from the wall. This is my experience after few good tens of thousands spent on equipment and 9 different homes changed along the years.
Hey paul, Im looking at getting used mirage omnidirectional satellites as heigts, auro 3d fronts, voice of god, rears and eventually 4 for the sides and back - the fronstage will be different (not sure what it will be yet). How bad do you think matching would be, especially panning from fronts to heights? is it not worth it? OR are there specifice specs i should be looking for from the front stage speakers that will make them match better such as wide dispersion, imaging, type of tweeter? I would imagine planar ribbons?
Paul - never reads or comments on Q in these videos - it's a one way street in that regard!
@@vidvidbiker
Not so.
He answered a recent question of mine, explaining and elaborating nicely.
We ever gonna get a binaural sound demo of those babies?
Right??? Paul's got some WAV files done with Schoeps. I'm sure.
Another type of recording that would totally fail are the early stereo recordings made by Enoch Light. He employed TOTAL separation - no 'center channel' whatsoever. This would create a very strange sound-stage, to say the least!
The stereo versions of the Beatles albums were pretty horrid
I think i have a great sound stage only problem is in the middle of my speakers is my unit with tv amp bluray player and centre speaker on it which might effect the depth behind, but i never pick up the singers voice from left or right to point when i play friends or family music they think my centre speaker is on but when they get about 10 inches away they realise its not on 😂😂😂.
What sounds better- real plants or fake plants? I think its a huge mistake to use fake plants around your audiophile system. You just wont get the natural ambiance from plastic leaves as you do from natural leaves. Banzai Elm is my personal choice and I would not recommend using Juniper. Apple is another great choice if you have the space.
Is this a meme comment?
@@atticusrussell1225 i dont know what you meme?
Paul, what's with the tree's anyway?
Use transparent audio cables? Run some vanishing cream on them? 😀
But if a musician is playing from a position where the speaker is in that soundstage should that not be acceptable that their sound emanates from that place ( speaker)
Paul, I still don´t follow your thinking that all of the soundstage should appear behind the speakers. With that the illusion of being involved in the reproduction and being fooled to believe that the listener is a part of the performance with good recordings is lost for me. So a big part of my fascination with reproduced music comes f.e. from the illusion that a centered mixed vocalist appears INFRONT of the stereo basis with me being literally able to give him or her my hand.... Music that only appears behind the speakers leaves me totally bored and robbed of the illusion of listening to a live performance. With the years of optimising the sound of my Apogee Acoustics Fullrange ribbon speakers in my room I get this illusion of being there with the perfomers more and more and it´s such a pleasure to experience this. So I wonder why you don´t strive to achieve this or at least why you don´t mention this in your optimisation guides ?
I have to admit that (to me) the greatest potential weakness and sonic variable in a hifi system is the actual recording and mastering.
Hey Paul, Any chance you can post a playlist of what tracks to listen to that are recorded well and SHOULD play back very well on the properly set up system?
A good track to use to test imaging is the "Letter" track by "Yosi Horikawa". A short while back, I changed the toe-in of one speaker to make it more symmetric to the other one. Things sounded off so I had to put it back to what I had. The toe-in change was very slight, in that a person wouldn't notice it visually, but it changed the audio aspect of things. The "Wandering" album by the same artist is pretty good for sound stage tests (e.g. birds chirping high and far back, people running from near left to far right, etc). For the "Letter" track, you will hear a pencil scribbling on paper, moving from left to right. This happens at the start and end of the track. I did my setup to have the pencil move at constant speed across the sound stage with no gap in the middle.
Type Paul’s picks ps audio. There’s 112 tracks listed by Paul
Those speakers behind you? Dang you CAN"T make them disappear.
What is that room tune to do you know ? just curious Paul
Got an experiment will you try??? get two long dowels one half an inch 1 inch. Place them half an inch in front of the tweeter nearly touching and the same with the mid-range that should give you a good soundstage
That’s awesome. Now I know my system doesn’t totally suck because my speakers don’t disappear 100% of the time.
..I once had a pair of bookshelf speakers disappear..from my college dorm room
Hello!
I have a good Headphone + Dac/Amp (Astro A40 MixAmp ~ 30 ohm) with dual 3.5mm TRRS outputs (both outputs share the same signal). The headphone sounds awesome, but I'd like to know if its possible to use the other 3.5mm TRRS output (and some DIY...) to sound 2 speakers + 1 mono subwoofer (active).
Is it possible?
Hey Paul. Please give us binural recording for that system in your room. Just for a littlebit idea how it sounds like.
Yup, sadly it all comes down to the recording. 10k, 20 k or 30k + will not sound much better if the recording is not up to par. It's like putting regular gas in a Porsche 911, Ferrari or Corvette. No Bueno.
Recording, mix, and master engineers are the heroes of fine audio.
Easy, send them to me! ;)
Speakers "disappearing" is subjectively an illusion of perception; nothing more, and nothing less.
I'm not a simple person. Any time I see Paul and the IRS, I click.
Buy speakers and then make them disappear ;)
Paul - Too much plugging of your book. Also, I would recommend that you learn something about the auditory system in the human central nervous system. The largest variables include coincidence detectors located in the human mesencephalon and the distance between the tympanic membranes - nothing to do with speaker placement.
Paul....please......
Cables????? Just stop! You know a wire carrying a signal doesnt magically create a better soundstage. Its room, speakers, pre and dac that make the difference. Oh wait. Forgot one thing. The recording!!!!!! Lots of recordings dont offer great soundstage Paul. You know that. So a system relies HEAVILY on the recording quality. Period.
He did say the recording. He emphasized it.
@@36karpatoruski he glazed-over recording. He did not emphasize it. Not sure which video you watched. Next thing you're going to tell me you agree with his cables statement
@@ryanschipp8513 He most certainly did, made a special reference to it then repeated it later. Nope on the cables, stop trying to predict the future.
@@36karpatoruski he talked about it very softly and did not accentuate it whatsoever. Stop being a fanboy and trying to exaggerate things
Yes, apart from the recording quality, which we are stuck with, it is speakers and room acoustics that have by far the biggest influence on audio quality. Expensive electronics and diamond encrusted cables will not improve sound quality if you have mediocre speakers in an acoustically problematic room.