It’s worth noting that the recording has so much to do with how the system delivers. While it’s mostly old Jazz recordings, I have some music where the instruments were mixed to the extreme right or left, that make speakers disappearing impossible. Most often when listening, though, my speakers do appear nonexistent.
I was gonna say similar, I don't quite get what the intent was , since a lot of my favorite albums, or often live recording, make use of left/right channels for soundstage. I don't actually want a setup that makes speakers disappear, to a point where become... um, dual mono
@@benwu7980It is not dual mono. It is an illusion of a deep 3d sound stage in which there is no apparent sound source at the speakers or from any other object in the room.
@@user-od9iz9cv1w Yeah, dual mono is not quite really what I meant to convey, just that what you call a sound stage is important to a decent amount of the music I listen to. I don't quite think I'm meant to have speakers disappear, but then I think that even if made them disappear, that sound stage with still occur for those types of recordings.
One of the most amazing speakers I've ever heard disappear was a pair of ESS AMT4's back in the 1970s, it was a 2 way speaker with Heil tweeters firing front and back with 10 inch woofers. Instruments just floated in the room outside the speaker with a realism of music that was unbelievable. The room had some unreal acoustics for some reason, there was no wall treatment, just carpet on the floor and it was wood paneling on the walls. The room was probably something like 14' x 16' and just seemed perfect for those speakers. The depth was stunning at times on certain tracks, for instance on Sweet Emotion by Aerosmith at the beginning when Steven Tyler's vocal first starts singing sweeeeeet at a low volume it seemed to be coming from through the wall and behind the speakers maybe 10 or 12 feet and outdoors, as his voice gets louder in the mix while singing sweet and holding that vocal it comes up closer from through the wall and into the room, it was the craziest thing I've ever experienced. Also one other thing, while listening to a track you would get a sense of being in that very room of the recording studio and not like the space we were actually in, that actually scared me and I wanted to leave the room, it was eery. I've thought about that stereo experience for years and tried to figure out how that system performed like that, I think it was the acoustics of the room that somehow made it possible.
A friend of mine owns a pair of ESS AMT 1A speakers. He's had them since the late 1970s. Those are amazing speakers. I myself bought a newer pair of ESS (RM II 6") I absolutely love them.
As much as speaker positioning and room tuning can make speakers disappear, the recording and equipment itself also contribute to this. Poorer quality speakers will not disappear no matter how you tune or position them. Years ago I listened many times to a pair of the old Wilson Grand Slams and it just amazed me how a large speaker like that would disappear. I could be standing right in front of one of them and the sound did not seem to be coming from the speaker, very impressive.
Paul projects the personality of a Sun in Cancer, and if true that means he automatically has Earth in Capricorn which would make him very disciplined and efficient in his career, as per other famous Cancer success stories like Elon Musk, Richard Branson, etc.
@@Canadian_Eh_I Yes, it’s nice when you see genuine passion from a CEO concerning his own products. I might not like that he sells a stereo bi-wire speaker cable 10 feet for US$168,400 or same as 5 typical cars, but good for him if anyone out there buys it hahaha
@@ThinkingBetter I almost passed out after reading your first post above. I thought, a change of heart, no negativity? Not even a disagreement, but I knew that wouldn't last. You couldn't resist in your reply to Canadian_Eh_I it came out, lol!
Paul I just Luv ❤❤❤ U thanks for teaching all to Love this magical gift of music . It's my favorite way of utilizing Energy released @ the start of the Universe after eating & breathing
A truly fascinating topic on one of the goals most desired by enthusiasts imhe disappearing act depends mostly on the qualities of the speakers and it will show pretty soon when the system has been warmed up a little Usually heaviest speakers disappear most i am sure that Ps Audio speakers disappear quite easily They are massive Very good The room acoustic instead impacts more on the soundstage instead Less wall reflections better pin point image
Paul you appear to have added a lot of quadratic diffusion and column style base traps. In your mixing room. Whereas you have a different solution in your main listening room. I like quadratic diffusers with at least 4” of absorbance behind.
Once upon a time I went into some box store listening room and tried some Polk and Boston Acoustics tower speakers standing next to each other. And I was really surprised that one pair kind of disappeared but the other speakers were very prominent and easy to locate as the sources of sounds.
Out to the edges and pointed in works for practical reasons with young children - side wall mount for bookshelf size speakers above their reach and directly into house structure. Safety and lack of worry.
Halo , Sir Paul ! If widen both speaker far away , do the vocal thickness will be lesser , soundstage will it be dynamic than the original placement ? tq
Yep, love the Wilson Audio and GoldenEar. I have 3 GoldenEar BRX (L, center, right) in a mixed use music/movies 7.4.4 system. music source=apple music lossless
1. Live music has a lot of reflected sound (unless performed outside) 2. Speakers disappearing was why I loved my departed Mirage M3s (dipoles). I recall omnidirectional speakers (ohms) disappearing and recently I've discovered wide dispersion box speakers can disappear. Great soundstage, but perhaps suboptimal imaging. Traditional box speakers is another thing.
I’m currently having some difficulty getting the best sound from my speakers. My living room is wide and open to the kitchen. My amazing wife has been patient with me as I put pieces of tape on the floor to help me remember where to place them as I continue to look for their correct position.
I got an idea for a "coaxial" driver: Its with the same type of panel drivers on your big white speakers. I want to find panel drivers that are dipole (shoots out sound from both sides). That is, if they exist. I want two med range rectangular drivers and one small tweeter rectangular driver. The two med drivers are positioned horizontally above and below the tweeter driver (that is also in the horizontal position). Point source dipole open panel speakers plus a boxed woofer! The question is that,,,do such small panel drivers (with dipole characteristics) exist?
One other answer is to replace the speakers. Unfortunately some speakers just generate too much cabinet, speaker board, driver resonance,.... sounds for them to disappear. In fact I find it the exception more than the rule for especially box speakers to totally disappear.
@@clickbeetle2720 I would say it's more round cone/ dome drivers that are the problem and that they often require or work best in boxes making it worse. And I find it interesting that with all the known design errors, they keep repeating them.
People, this is old-school common sense .. you can even pull this off with a pair of couple-hundred dollar bookshelf speakers on stands with suitable tweaks. Nothing amazing here for us stereo audio enthusiasts that intently lived the hobby through the 1960's lol One of the sad consequences of the digital age is that fundamental concepts from the analog world become more and more obscure.
Weirdly my speakers always disappear regardless of how they are set up. I’ve pushed my speakers back against the while I was cleaning and the sound is still totally divorced from the speakers with a wide soundstage. So speaker design must play a big part.
Agreed. I think it all matters. You need phase accurate low level information so the music and the source are important and everything else has to not screw it up.
Recording must have that quality/method which will produce 3D image. Then all electronic path from source to speaker must have capability to drive that energy with minimum loss.Then rational speaker placement is must have to get 97% of realism as recorded.
Everything our host said is correct. But one more item needs noting: You must play properly mixed and mastered recordings. If you play some random song, it will likely have sub-par sound quality, and your speakers will not disappear. Paul can personally set up all of his flagship gear in a room custom built to his specifications. And if you then play an ordinary sounding song, your speakers will not disappear. All of the equipment and how it is set up is very important. But so is the song's sound quality. Alas, most music has nothing special sound quality. The tunes are great. But the studio personnel screw up the mixing and the mastering with compression and equalization.
I got to listen to a set of MBL's in a hifi show. The sounstage was not pinpoint accurate but as for 3D like, airiness of music and speakers disappearing - these were in a league of their own.
@@VillemVallimaafigured. Read my note above: Omnis, dipoles and wide dispersion box speakers disappear and throw impressively wide soundstage which is different from accurate localization (imaging) which is apparently done less well in these speakers.
Paul is not always right even though he think he is. Use your common sense to set up you system and your ears to come to a conclusion about you set up.
My wife asked the same question, but I don't think she meant the same
😂
😂😂😂
@xaviermontalban717 women don't like music ? why aren't they audiophile ? real question. All amps, speakers, cables (^^) thread it's always men !!!
😂
My GF said that the speakers look ugly on the stands but the sound is great... Kali audio IN-8 budget setup
Paul, there is one other way to get the speakers in that room to disappear. Box them up and just ship them to me. 😀
LOL😂
It’s worth noting that the recording has so much to do with how the system delivers. While it’s mostly old Jazz recordings, I have some music where the instruments were mixed to the extreme right or left, that make speakers disappearing impossible. Most often when listening, though, my speakers do appear nonexistent.
I was gonna say similar, I don't quite get what the intent was , since a lot of my favorite albums, or often live recording, make use of left/right channels for soundstage.
I don't actually want a setup that makes speakers disappear, to a point where become... um, dual mono
@@benwu7980It is not dual mono. It is an illusion of a deep 3d sound stage in which there is no apparent sound source at the speakers or from any other object in the room.
I like it when the bass is dead center and a sax is slightly off center To the right and the trumpet is slightly off to the left for example.
@@jayem1826 Agreed. Often there is some depth as well. Clearly one out in front and the others a couple steps back.
@@user-od9iz9cv1w Yeah, dual mono is not quite really what I meant to convey, just that what you call a sound stage is important to a decent amount of the music I listen to. I don't quite think I'm meant to have speakers disappear, but then I think that even if made them disappear, that sound stage with still occur for those types of recordings.
One of the most amazing speakers I've ever heard disappear was a pair of ESS AMT4's back in the 1970s, it was a 2 way speaker with Heil tweeters firing front and back with 10 inch woofers. Instruments just floated in the room outside the speaker with a realism of music that was unbelievable. The room had some unreal acoustics for some reason, there was no wall treatment, just carpet on the floor and it was wood paneling on the walls. The room was probably something like 14' x 16' and just seemed perfect for those speakers. The depth was stunning at times on certain tracks, for instance on Sweet Emotion by Aerosmith at the beginning when Steven Tyler's vocal first starts singing sweeeeeet at a low volume it seemed to be coming from through the wall and behind the speakers maybe 10 or 12 feet and outdoors, as his voice gets louder in the mix while singing sweet and holding that vocal it comes up closer from through the wall and into the room, it was the craziest thing I've ever experienced. Also one other thing, while listening to a track you would get a sense of being in that very room of the recording studio and not like the space we were actually in, that actually scared me and I wanted to leave the room, it was eery. I've thought about that stereo experience for years and tried to figure out how that system performed like that, I think it was the acoustics of the room that somehow made it possible.
A friend of mine owns a pair of ESS AMT 1A speakers. He's had them since the late 1970s. Those are amazing speakers. I myself bought a newer pair of ESS (RM II 6") I absolutely love them.
dq10 in my case
Leave your doors unlocked, disable all security systems and provide a clear path from your house to the road.
!! I also expected a housebreaker's guide!
You’re always informative, Paul I appreciate your commentary and your wisdom.
As much as speaker positioning and room tuning can make speakers disappear, the recording and equipment itself also contribute to this. Poorer quality speakers will not disappear no matter how you tune or position them. Years ago I listened many times to a pair of the old Wilson Grand Slams and it just amazed me how a large speaker like that would disappear. I could be standing right in front of one of them and the sound did not seem to be coming from the speaker, very impressive.
Someone: How to make speakers disappear?
Me: Well, just sell it!
😂
Love it, thanks again Paul!!!!
Disappear? Give them to me? 😅.. only joking, love this channel. Brilliant
Paul is super impressive by making these videos and also writing books while still being CEO of a company of great products.
He is definitely a formidable business person and I mean that as a compliment.
Paul projects the personality of a Sun in Cancer, and if true that means he automatically has Earth in Capricorn which would make him very disciplined and efficient in his career, as per other famous Cancer success stories like Elon Musk, Richard Branson, etc.
@@Canadian_Eh_I Yes, it’s nice when you see genuine passion from a CEO concerning his own products. I might not like that he sells a stereo bi-wire speaker cable 10 feet for US$168,400 or same as 5 typical cars, but good for him if anyone out there buys it hahaha
@@ThinkingBetter
I almost passed out after reading your first post above. I thought, a change of heart, no negativity? Not even a disagreement, but I knew that wouldn't last. You couldn't resist in your reply to Canadian_Eh_I it came out, lol!
He is a salesman for his company that is why he does these videos that is all just listen to all the bullshit that comes out of his mouth.
FINALLY, I know which book to buy, The Audiophile's Guide: The Loudspeaker is the more in depth one on speaker setup. So confusing on the website.
Use of specificity in casual conversation. 10 bonus points ;-)
Paul I just Luv ❤❤❤ U thanks for teaching all to Love this magical gift of music .
It's my favorite way of utilizing Energy released @ the start of the Universe after eating & breathing
A truly fascinating topic on one of the goals most desired by enthusiasts
imhe disappearing act depends mostly on the qualities of the speakers and it will show pretty soon when the system has been warmed up a little Usually heaviest speakers disappear most
i am sure that Ps Audio speakers disappear quite easily They are massive Very good
The room acoustic instead impacts more on the soundstage instead Less wall reflections better pin point image
Paul you appear to have added a lot of quadratic diffusion and column style base traps. In your mixing room. Whereas you have a different solution in your main listening room. I like quadratic diffusers with at least 4” of absorbance behind.
Once upon a time I went into some box store listening room and tried some Polk and Boston Acoustics tower speakers standing next to each other. And I was really surprised that one pair kind of disappeared but the other speakers were very prominent and easy to locate as the sources of sounds.
Out to the edges and pointed in works for practical reasons with young children - side wall mount for bookshelf size speakers above their reach and directly into house structure. Safety and lack of worry.
Halo , Sir Paul ! If widen both speaker far away , do the vocal thickness will be lesser , soundstage will it be dynamic than the original placement ? tq
"How to make speakers disappear" My wife keeps asking me the same question.
Yep, love the Wilson Audio and GoldenEar. I have 3 GoldenEar BRX (L, center, right) in a mixed use music/movies 7.4.4 system.
music source=apple music lossless
1. Live music has a lot of reflected sound (unless performed outside) 2. Speakers disappearing was why I loved my departed Mirage M3s (dipoles). I recall omnidirectional speakers (ohms) disappearing and recently I've discovered wide dispersion box speakers can disappear. Great soundstage, but perhaps suboptimal imaging. Traditional box speakers is another thing.
You would need a huge room for those speakers. I'm in the UK and most (even quite well off) people tend to live in glorified rabbit hutches!
It’s all well and good when you have a nice big deep room. How do we deal with wide but shallow rooms?
I’m currently having some difficulty getting the best sound from my speakers. My living room is wide and open to the kitchen. My amazing wife has been patient with me as I put pieces of tape on the floor to help me remember where to place them as I continue to look for their correct position.
Get a Mic and REW and experiment away. Only way to figure out what works and what doesn’t.
Paul do you allow tours of your room? If so what’s the address?
There will always be recordings where the speakers will not disappear entirely
Along with certain speakers which do not image well.
@@danmarjenka6361 True
if the speakers is a part of the wall?
Paul, can I skip the first publication and just get "The Speaker" book and disk to get excellent sound?
I got an idea for a "coaxial" driver:
Its with the same type of panel drivers on your big white speakers. I want to find panel drivers that are dipole (shoots out sound from both sides). That is, if they exist. I want two med range rectangular drivers and one small tweeter rectangular driver. The two med drivers are positioned horizontally above and below the tweeter driver (that is also in the horizontal position). Point source dipole open panel speakers plus a boxed woofer! The question is that,,,do such small panel drivers (with dipole characteristics) exist?
Link to the book!
“Herrman”
I worked at a moving company once. There was a guy that would make your speakers dissapear also. Cops came in and arrested him one day.
One other answer is to replace the speakers. Unfortunately some speakers just generate too much cabinet, speaker board, driver resonance,.... sounds for them to disappear. In fact I find it the exception more than the rule for especially box speakers to totally disappear.
@@clickbeetle2720 I would say it's more round cone/ dome drivers that are the problem and that they often require or work best in boxes making it worse. And I find it interesting that with all the known design errors, they keep repeating them.
People, this is old-school common sense .. you can even pull this off with a pair of couple-hundred dollar bookshelf speakers on stands with suitable tweaks. Nothing amazing here for us stereo audio enthusiasts that intently lived the hobby through the 1960's lol
One of the sad consequences of the digital age is that fundamental concepts from the analog world become more and more obscure.
Weirdly my speakers always disappear regardless of how they are set up. I’ve pushed my speakers back against the while I was cleaning and the sound is still totally divorced from the speakers with a wide soundstage.
So speaker design must play a big part.
Agreed. I think it all matters. You need phase accurate low level information so the music and the source are important and everything else has to not screw it up.
Recording must have that quality/method which will produce 3D image.
Then all electronic path from source to speaker must have capability to drive that energy with minimum loss.Then rational speaker placement is must have to get 97% of realism as recorded.
My ELAC Vela 409s disappear; it was easy to do.
Everything our host said is correct. But one more item needs noting:
You must play properly mixed and mastered recordings. If you play some random song, it will likely have sub-par sound quality, and your speakers will not disappear.
Paul can personally set up all of his flagship gear in a room custom built to his specifications. And if you then play an ordinary sounding song, your speakers will not disappear.
All of the equipment and how it is set up is very important. But so is the song's sound quality. Alas, most music has nothing special sound quality. The tunes are great. But the studio personnel screw up the mixing and the mastering with compression and equalization.
That's true and he is super but the effective feedback and support for customers is very poor. His team's support is so slow that it's ineffective
You’d be hard pressed to make those behemoths disappear.
Best believe Paul walked the walk when he came into the UK...
The FR20 & FR30 both disappeared with ease...
Paul made them disappear at AXPONA 2023
To make speakers disappear, just should sell them.
Mediocre speakers are not known for disappearing! Better ones yes. Entry level no! Same goes for electronics. Paul forgot that part!
My problem is that my speakers made my wife disappear and I don't know how to bring her back. Can you write a book about that quandary?
The recording has a lot to do with speakers disappearing,
And certain speakers do not disappear well.
You buy a set of MBL.
I got to listen to a set of MBL's in a hifi show. The sounstage was not pinpoint accurate but as for 3D like, airiness of music and speakers disappearing - these were in a league of their own.
@@VillemVallimaafigured. Read my note above: Omnis, dipoles and wide dispersion box speakers disappear and throw impressively wide soundstage which is different from accurate localization (imaging) which is apparently done less well in these speakers.
I spent some time in their room at the last Tampa show. I truly enjoyed their set up. @@VillemVallimaa
and if that doesn't work simply sell your speakers.....gone disappeared!
If the source is wrong, everything else will be wrong!
Wear a blindfold
Just sell these clunkers and get set of Bose acoustimass, take the 30k difference and go to Mexico and find some busty latinas to help you spend it
How to make speakers disappear? Easy. leave them out on hard rubbish day.
Paul is not always right even though he think he is. Use your common sense to set up you system and your ears to come to a conclusion about you set up.