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Finding the Point of First Reflection
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- čas přidán 3. 11. 2021
- The Point of First Reflection is critical to identify and deal with when setting up a high-performance audio system. Paul walks us through what it is, how to identify it, and how to deal with it.
Room is so important. I see so many people with their systems set up funny. It's mind bending how much better even modest systems can sound when set up properly.
💯% agree
I’m hearing Paul speak but my mind is lost in the glory of those speakers and just beautifully overall backdrop. I love ask Paul.
Blush. Thank you!
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio isn't it high time to release some bookshelf speakers? 😉
I love the un-afordium speakers. But I think most want to try out ps audio speakers in an affordable package. They would have made great Christmas presents
And Paul looks so small near those monsters.
While I’ve long known what first reflections are, Paul’s description was the most graphics, simple, and easily understood I’ve heard. Loved it.
His solution helps… but a bit too birds eye view for folks serious about room correction… but nevertheless accurate and helpful for first reflection mitigation.
But Don’t forget… there’s a ceiling, floor, corners, and room length/width/height (in relation to “sound-wave” lengths) to contend with, too,
That outro with the staff, facilities , and area drone shot is classy and warm… I’m glad he’s stuck with it.
I would love to be on that chair listening "The Dark side of the moon". Thanks for the video!
I truly wish you guys can make more videos with music from these speakers.
I love it that you concentrate on the important things in life. Spending huge amounts of money on excellent speakers an then adding the cheapest bookshelves available.
Yep. It would be just like the fellow who buys an expensive car of his dreams and then parks it outside.
@@txmike1945 30 grand is like a Honda Accord. Lol
Speaker placement and room acoustics are fundamental.
A 1,000 dollar hifi, set up properly, can sound much better than a carelessly set up 100,000 dollar hifi.
Thnx for another great explanation Paul.
Greetings from The Netherlands
I used 3/8" felt carpet pads and just put some cloth wall tapestries over them. All cheap stuff from Amazon. I have a large one covering up the wall behind the couch and a medium size between the windows on the one wall close to the speakers. They work great and add some much needed color to the room. (Visual color!) I put the side one up some time after arriving at my current speaker setup. It made a very noticeable difference. My room isn't perfect and I don't have a super high budget system, but I feel I'm making the most of it and I'm quite happy with my sound.
As a working Acoustic consultant I would suggest buying an acoustics handbook that covers a fair bit and is not to complex for newcomers it's always good having a reference book handy. A good start would obviously be the master hand book of acoustics and if you want to take it up a few notches Architectural Acoustics (marshall long) and many others.
Brilliant, well explained. Thank you
My wife: is that not a strange place for a bookshelf?
Me: nope, definitely not. It's much easier to reach the books from there.
Thanks for the info. All the info out there and never was it explained like that. Outstanding!
A million dollar stereo set and... an Ikea bookshelf.
Truly coherent.
You have a talent to talk about difficult things and make it so simple understandible. Sorry for my english :) its not my native language
Paul, You should present us to all those people waving at us. Would be nice to get to know the team.
Yes one of my first ask Paul questions asked at the height of the current world climate show us the happy faces. Paul did unofficially do it a few months ago but as mentioned “unofficial”
i do car audio and i learn a lot from Paul
The thumbnail of the video definitely caught my eyes. Thought Paul was doing the audiophile version of Enter the Dragon.
My dedicated listening space is simliar in size to Paul's music room. It is a 432 sq.ft. rectangle. I have ATS panels all at the listening end only. The speakers are in the 'live' end at the front wall 20' away. Hard tile floor and no carpeting. Happily, 'curved' electrostats do not suffer from much side wall reflection, so those side walls are not treated in any way.
My doors are once again open to guests and I have had a number here in recent weeks to share in the music and friendship. Some with very critcal ears, and they were surprised and pleased with what they heard. (O:
Is this the Gary Smith that once worked for the Houston Chronicle?
@@txmike1945 Hello there, sorry, no................my name is SO common, you never know where it will show up. When I was in my 80ies touring band, I would grab the phone book at the hotel and see how many names like mine I could find. We were recording at Jimi's studio in NYC in 1985, and I remember seeing 15 people with my name that included the correct middle initial !! Thanks for asking (O:
@@garysmith8455 Yeah, I knew it was a shot in the dark, but you never know!!
Cheers Paul,,Hi from Ireland!!!!!!!!!!!!
The dog gets a thumbs up
Excellent solution Paul. Thanks.
Hi Paul great explanation I have used this approach and it works well.
@3:46 "We use these Vicoustic Panels..."
Those panels are held on by glue.
Vicoustic sells the glue.
Note that their glue sucks.
Their glue has a "Best Used By" date, that Vicoustic ignores.
It is common for them to sell you glue that is already 12 months past the "Best Used By" date.
It is only a matter of time, and the panels start coming down. It might take a few weeks, or perhaps several months.
In my case, one came down after a few weeks, and several others came down over the next two years.
Vicoustic eventually sent me replacement panels, and I used glue from Home Depot.
It took Vicoustic 2 years to honor their warranty. And that was with me keeping after them, as well as the owner of the audio store, from where I made the purchase, chasing after them, too.
Their panels work.
But pray that you do not have adhesion problems. And pray that if a panel comes down that it does not land on something fragile or someone's head (if you put panels on the ceiling).
And when you hear a loud noise from the other room, while you are going to sleep, it is unsettling.
I have asked Paul, a year or two ago, in the comments of a different video, to let us know if he has any issue with his panels. He has never commented on any issue.
By the way, Microsoft sued Vicoustic, as well as many other companies, for similar problems with their panels.
Cheers!
It’s the split system. It’s the one thing in this room that drives me nuts. You can have all the symmetry and money but if you still need to use your noodle. Being in the USA I’m surprised you don’t have under floor vent near amps and then discreet vent up the top for natural convection to move the warm air and why not ducted system even a mini 2.5-3kw unit X 2 ducts and your all done but with an operation of your size I’m sure they can spread the love and get rid of that nuisance off the wall. Marvelous. Stay safe.
if you sit and listen to weaknesses all the time, you will not enjoy the music. If you have good speakers, the change when you move in the room is so small that there is nothing to worry about. you should enjoy listening to music and not get annoyed at the slightest weakness
I agree with what you are trying say about how we should be enjoying music instead of spending so much time and money fiddling with equipment, but I disagree with your statement that room acoustics are insignificant if you’ve spent big bucks on your speakers. Pretty much all speakers regardless of price range will benefit in the same way from the room being setup with bass traps, diffusers, and some broadband absorption panels. Music is MUCH more enjoyable in a good room, and music SUCKS in a bad room. I absolutely hate boomy/muddy bass and shrill highs. Expensive speakers in a bad room will sound like garbage, so why bother spending the money on expensive speakers if you aren’t going to make sure your room is setup to be synergistic with the speakers? Also, I’ve heard cheap speakers (HSU, paradigm, JBL, NHT, etc) in a great room, and surprise, the speakers sound great!
I may be wrong but I consider reflections in the room as a really important element of the listening experience. I consider the reflection absolutly essential for the 3D feeling of the stereo imaging. If you feel your speakers disapear, that's not the speakers... that's the room ! The room fade the exact emission point of the music and fool your brain, giving you the feeling that the audio space is much bigger than it actualy is.
That's my actual position... I still have tests to do... But I know i'm at 180 degres of the general point of view on this subject !
Very nice explanation, thank you Paul.
Thanks Paul. I must be getting smarter every day.
Great explanation, thanks!
Thats a really good tip with the book shelf, I already have a ton of books stacked on my floor and in boxes so I have been needing another shelf.
bookshelfes are neither proper diffusors nor absorbers - they are just better than naked walls but a joke when it comes to serious room acoustics
@@Harald_Reindl Calling bookshelves "a joke" is more than a bit of overreaction. It all depends on how critical your listening is and how much you want to spend on "proper" diffusors. Lighten up, Reindl.
@@txmike1945 read the whole setence damned! they ARE a joke IN CONTEXT OF SERIOUS ROOM ACOUSTICS
@@Harald_Reindl Reindl, it is easy to see by reading all your responses that you go out of your way to be confrontational, like you always have a chip on your shoulder. What's up? Are you naturally ill-tempered or are you doing that just for this audience?
💯 EASY EXPLANATION 🤗 THANKS PAUL 😍😍😍
Great way of explaining 👍
..there’s also first reflection off the floor hence the area rug between the listener and the speakers
When I saw the thumbnail, my first thoughts were: this is a kungfu instruction video. 😅
I thought he was doing a Riddler pose from the original Batman series!
Don't forget to treat the first reflections on the wall behind the listening position. This will help focus, soundstaging and tonality.
I like placing my speakers (JBL L100a) on the long wall of the room with the front baffles about four feet out from the back wall. The room is 23’ long and 12’ wide.
Try long wall placement to avoid pesky side wall problems.
Very well explained. Like the tip to use bookshelves. Would a small area rug also work?
Hi Paul, thanks for the great little vid & explanation + method of addressing possible problems. One thing though - I’m a little surprised that the Listening room isn’t a bit bigger given the huge size of the IRS5s… to avoid possible first reflection issues? Alan (Norfolk, UK)
Don't you think, when a speaker has a long (top to bottom) or wide (side to side) array of drivers, each a different distance from a reflection point, that would decrease the effect of reflection?
Bookshelves would be good as diffusion, would they also work with absorption?
Well simply judging by your video thumbnail One could infer that the solution for finding first reflections is some sort of karate or perhaps tai chi.
All jokes aside your advice is wonderful and certainly makes valid points, however i find the best solution for first reflections is to simply not worry about it and drink a couple of beers.
I wish that your videos were just a bit longer. Best videos to get away from the drudge of daily life.
You're too kind. I struggle with their length. On the one hand I could go on for hours and on the other hand, if I do people start to yawn. A tough balance.
Thanks Paul!
Do drapes work? I have shades at the full point of reflection on the right side. The left side is more open and not reflecting dorectly back at me.
Hopefully you have enough sound absorption in that modest sized room! Because those speakers are HUGE!
My walls are a window on the left and no wall at all on the right (there is one but a few meters from the speaker so the first point of reflection is likely behind my sitting position).
I have DefTech Bi-Polar towers and surround speakers in a 7.2.2 setup. Since they are bi-polar and they "spread" the direct and reflected sound in the theater -- is the "point of first reflection" still valid for these speakers? What sort of treatments should I use?
What in the actual heavenly acoustics is that setup..
Thanks, ❤️
Excellent 👌
But what if your room is 3X as wide as it is deep?
I just found out about the mirror trick a year ago! Count Dracula wants to know if there is another way?
Yes there's another way.
The ETC measurement is actually the correct manner to assess whether you need treatment, where you need it, if you've treated it adequately achieved the goal of addressing the first reflection in the first place.
It can demonstrate what direction the offending energy is incident from, and it's level, diffused/absorbed, or redirected.
Easier to use room correction DSP like in many integrated amps and now even streamer DAC's.
I have a rug hanging on one wall but the other speaker sits near a window (with shutters) on the other side.. I cannot hang a drape over that window because my wife would flip..
Any other suggestions to help absorb that 'window' reflection?
Thank you all
Joe
You don't have to absorb the reflection so would she accept a bookshelf or some furniture type addition?
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio in front of a window? O No ;)
The angle of incidence is equal to the angle of reflection. Also, don't forget the other room boundaries - floor an ceiling. And, the mirror really should be against the room boundary surface, not with one's body in-between. The person hold the mirror in hand is unlikely to consistently hold the mirror "flat" as if it were against the wall not to mention the dimensional distance differences from one's body in-between. Just sayin. ;)
Hi Paul, thanks for the video. how do you suggest to setup or treat the listening room i.e. living room that has not the same side wall length. the right wall is solid brick wall and long. while the left wall only has about 1/3 of the right wall include door to other room. the front wall is majority occupied by big window. i set the system on the short side of the room facing long side of the room. appreciate your view!
Have you thought about some curtains and some nice lighting nice a couple of table lamps presuming your not listening all day if you get a nice curtains you may only have to draw them half way how big is the window are you listening in the day or into the night slotted blinds also work the big two inch deep wood ones you can angle them at a 45 degrees and still get light and you can paint them
@@jameswyllie9608 hi. thanks for chime in. the window is about 1.5m x 2m size and has curtain on it although quite thin one (only to reduce lighting). am planning to add some wedge foam on the front wall corner, maybe in the center height and top corner only. however have no idea how to treat imbalance side wall situation.
Very interesting and very well described.
Probably a silly question but if you rotated the speakers away from the wall so that the listener was the point of first reflection would that work or would it cause other issues? (apart from looking strange maybe)
Along those lines you might try an experiment. Rotate your floor-standing speakers so they point directly to the rear wall, about 18 inches away. What you'll get is analogous to the BOSE 901 direct/reflecting speakers without the "direct." The wall then becomes the primary source of sound and there will not be a well-defined point of first reflection. You might enjoy that better but you'd need to re-balance your speakers.
Carl, by definition, the listener can't be the point of 𝙛𝙞𝙧𝙨𝙩 𝙧𝙚𝙛𝙡𝙚𝙘𝙩𝙞𝙤𝙣.
The listener receives 𝙙𝙞𝙧𝙚𝙘𝙩 𝙚𝙣𝙚𝙧𝙜𝙮 from the speaker, regardless where the listener or speaker is.
Example; Snare drum hit is reproduced from the speaker... that propagates to the listener in "x" amount of time.
That's 𝙙𝙞𝙧𝙚𝙘𝙩 𝙚𝙣𝙚𝙧𝙜𝙮.
The first exposure to the sound is clean and uncorrupted direct path.
However, a short time later the listener begins receiving additional hits from the various room surfaces.
Examples
"X" + 5 millisecs from the sidewall
"X" + 10 millisecs from the ceiling
These 𝙛𝙞𝙧𝙨𝙩 𝙧𝙚𝙛𝙡𝙚𝙘𝙩𝙞𝙤𝙣 examples.
@@FOH3663 Good, clear explanation. Real numbers - 8.8 msec to the listener 8 ft away, 10 to 12 msec from the walls. The reverb created isn't necessarily undesirable.
0:55 small flex 😂 - Nice video as usual 🙌
OK so what if there is nothing 'there' at the point of reflection? In my main listening room, on each side, there is a large archway opening into other rooms. Not much reflection coming off of air and another room the same size as the listening room.
In that scenario then, the first reflection point is likely the floor or maybe your ceiling. If you have tile or wooden floors, carpet/rugs can help. For ceilings you can install acoustic panels.
I’ll just get a pair of headphones and call it a day. 😝
🙄
Damn I didn’t know you actually watched Paul McGowan
@@danielmiller469 Who doesnt? I just use headphones...but I still show up and listen to what peepaw has to say.
Headphones are shit because they can't by definition bring depth - your ear relies on the timeshift from the sound of the other speaker as well as it's subtle out of axis - a shitty headphone can't deliver that no matter what you do - physics and psychoacoustics are your friend when it comes to sound
you'll need more than one pair for a decent reflector/absorber.
I run my speakers across the corner of the room and thus any reflections that I do get are way later. No one ever talks about this kind of a set-up.
Paul, please move your PS Audio rug to be symmetric with the speakers...it's driving my OCD nuts...
No, if you really were that bad you would insist on calling it "CDO".
I wish I had a room like that. Windows, CD and LP shelving, low ceiling, etc. I shudder to think what all the reflections look like.🤔
fight them with absorbers - the price difference of laughable highend gear and cables could fill your room with Basotect
Along the same type of question, how do you know if you need a bass trap? What is a bass trap?
Do you like fish? Well, bass is a fish. You might want to trap some
In small room acoustics, essentially you need as much bass trapping as you're willing to implement.
The reason is decay times, the energy in the bass range hangs around too long, thus obscuring bass detail.
The energy in the bass octaves is massive, it can pulsate a wall. The upper octaves don't possess the same amount of physical energy... the wavelengths are very small as you go up in frequency.
High freqs attenuate more rapidly in our rooms, ... relative to the low freqs. The lows build up and compound... this obscures detail.
All too often, rooms are treated with thin, limited range absorption, leaving the true bass range untouched... creating an un-articulate mess down low, with a lifeless overly damped top end.
Those rooms are better off with little to no treatment, than a lot of thin ineffective panels.
If you absorb, absorb as deep into the bottom octaves as possible.
Your question; "how do I know if I need a bass trap"
Every room benefits from aggressive bass trapping.
Amazes me how many great systems I see with bad rooms.
If that idiots would realize that at least 50% of what you hear is the room and they wasted a ton of money for useless crap they would jump out of the window - invest your money where it makes a difference
Interesting.. I have a table between me and my speakers. So the point of first return must be on the table.. Could I do away with problems by having a sliced table with a tablecloth on it ?
Do yourself a favor. While listening to a favorite track have someone move the table off to the side for a minute, then move it back. If you can hear a difference then you know what to do. If not then don't worry about it. I have a wool carpet on the floor between me and my front speakers.
I have a slightly different suggestion. Think about all the marginal gains you've already made in your room and ones you could make in the future. Imagine undoing them all. You'd definitely hear a difference then.
The point is, don't think of "can I hear this one adjustment or treatment" if I remove only it.
But also know what you can and can't live without. If you love the table and how it functions, then maybe it should stay.
@@thunderpooch Yes, keep the table and just throw a folded blanket onto it when listening important audio content.
Yes, bookshelves works with scattering the sound. Especially if it books about room acustics! 🤣
The point of first reflection is critical to identify and deal with? Tweeter most important for first reflection concerns? Hmmm, I always thought higher frequencies were most direct? If so, then why would they be most important when considering first reflections? Why would we think higher frequencies are bouncing off the walls more than other frequencies? Especially when in this case Paul's Infinity speaker tweeters are closer to the center of the room than they are to the walls and the speakers are toed in toward the listening chair? Also, when people talk first or any reflections, shouldn't this have much to do with listening volume levels as well as room widths? Many listen at lower volume levels and I would think the closer one gets to elevator music listening volume levels, reflections of any sort should become moot. However, room acoustic experts never seem to mention these conditions. They just say we must address these matters unconditionally? Interesting.... Sounds to me like yet one more preconceived narrataive among the many in high-end audio.
Yes exactly. High frequency sound is direct. But it doesn’t only come out of the speaker in one straight line from center. It’s coming out to the sides as well and echoing off the walls. The goal is to reduce those reflections that confuse the ear and then only hear the sound from the speakers.
@@keithmoran8004 Ummmmmm, sure. Take a look at Paul's tweeters again. Do you see even a hint of a dispersion pattern that could allow higher frequencies to make any type of bee-line for the walls? Especially when the speakers are toed in. Regardless, first reflections in all but perhaps the smallest of rooms ought to a non-issue and essentially equates to chasing windmills. But if you or Paul or anybody else has any audible evidence to substantiate otherwise, I'd love to hear it.
and the ceiling
Laser pointer and mirrors will help you pinpoint all these spots...
Wrong , we do not rather have direct sound ! We , as human ears, love a combination of direct and indirect sound . The only question is a matter of optimal proportion (direct/indirect). Well designed constant directivity dipoles are pretty close to that optimal combo .
Goveaerts, your choice of "wrong" is wrong. There is no "one flavor fits all." An outdoor concert with primarily direct sound is a wonderful experience, as is a recorded symphony played back in a small, live room. They are just different. You do have a point, most programming we listen to has plenty of indirect sound. But eliminating unwanted reflected sound can sharpen up your listening experience, and that was the point of the video and it was answering a question.
Ive got an unbalanced room no choice. 2 feet from one side wall to the speaker and 4 feet to the speaker on the opposite side. 😭
Smart room acoustics and room-eq are your friend and gain more than laughable expensive speakers, gear and cables - even in a symmetric room
And what is with first reflection point on the ceiling?
czcams.com/video/qSSg8eXhulM/video.html
Get your ceiling mirror out to find that.
@@hugobloemers4425 die uit je slaapkamer ? lmao 😁😂
It would be the floor, not the ceiling.
@@wmanggrum Diffuser on the floor🤔
Paul, I know you are a big subwoofer fan, ass I am too but I don't see any here.
Look closely. Behind those wings are two 7,5' tall subwoofers with 6 12" woofers each.
The point of 1st reflection is the FLOOR, not the sidewall or the ceiling.
elaborate?
Bullshit! there is more than one and besides that the walls and ceiling have greater impact than the floor
It's actually the front of the speaker
@@thunderpooch jesus christ early reflections are the ones which reach you first or in some cases even earlier then direct sound - and they are the source of second and third reflections - if you kill them other reflections don't appear and the points are side walls, ceiling and the wall behind you - if you absorb the ceiling the floor becomes less important, if you absorb the first reflections on the sides you also kill secondary reflections on the other side as well as standing waves
What kind of speakers are those?
infinity irs5
Big ones
Listening to audiophiles is as boring as listening to wine snobs.
They are trying achieve the impossible, create a live performance in the home.
First, they were never at the concert, in the perfect seat, with no crowd or seats around them.
Second, the recording has been through the wizardry of the engineer who mixed it, it’s his/her version of the performance.
Third, it could be a studio recording.
I’m a fan of Joe Bonamassa and a couple of years ago I attended one of his concerts. To recreate that at home just place your speakers three feet apart, turn the volume to maximum, then sit between them. It was painfully loud and horrible.
It’s your money to spend, but realize you’re chasing a unicorn.
Love the thumbnail!
Who be interrupting my Kung Fu?!?
So the perfect spot to listen to speakers is outdoors where there are no reflections? 😀
I've done that, when testing a new design. It is very unusual! But think about 5.1 headphones, you can solve lots of sound problems that way.
my system sounds amazing outside! probably the best sound I ever heard
@@robertvanczak6944 It is probably like listening to a concert in Central Park rather than one inside a cozy theater.
Yes
Paul, please get rid of those fake plastic trees :)
Doing some taichi in the thumbnail
What if you have a room that has Open spaces on the sides or has odd shapes on the sides?
That is better than a 12' X 20' room with solid walls and nothing on them.
Symmetry is the key
@@Harald_Reindl Seems to me non-symmetry is better, less chance of reinforcement or cancellation of sound waves. Most rooms take care of that naturally with things like window drapes, an open door, furniture, all located at random parts of the room.
@@txmike1945 nonsense! non-symmetry by definition compromises the stereo image and phantom center and random oarts somewhere in the room is a different story than first reflection points - either reflect on both sides identical or absorb on both sides identical - it's simple physics
@@Harald_Reindl Physics? Maybe you mean geometry.
Reindl, I don't believe you, I don't believe you know what you are talking about. Give me an independent reference that discusses this, otherwise just admit that you are blowing smoke.
You are a really nice guy, but lost your fight against your BMI. And you did so well!
Those fake ficus do a great job, btw.
Fake plants make great diffusers.
Karate thumbnail.
I can't relate to your royalty room bud
If you talk any slower I will be too old to care
If you listen any slower it won't matter.
Talk faster and stop sounding so condescending
At least Paul has something useful to say...
You clearly don't |!
@@Gman4MF what's your point?
@@Gman4MF maybe the room needs more acoustic treatment...the reflections are causing smearing of logic
I think there is a filter in each of your ears that convert "informative" into "condescending." Help everyone out here, quit viewing PS Audio videos.
@Sblackflltalking sloooooooooooow might be an indication he is not functioning properly....has to keep thinking what to saaaaaaaay.....could be old timers disease