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Why aren't speakers designed to go against the wall?
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- čas přidán 24. 02. 2019
- Few homes are accepting of a pair of loudspeaker out into the room. Though they sound better, they don't work with most people's lives. Find out how PS Audio intends to solve this problem. Have a question you want to ask Paul? www.psaudio.com...
I am getting close to publishing my memoir! It's called 99% True and it is chock full of adventures, debauchery, struggles, heartwarming stories, triumphs and failures, great belly laughs, and a peek inside the high-end audio industry you've never known before.
I plan a few surprises for early adopters, so go to www.paulmcgowa... and add your name to the list of interested readers. There's an entire gallery of never before seen photos too.
"Up against the wall mother...". That part made me lol.
I've seen alot of his recent videos and did not expect it 🤣
I always think about how Jefferson Airplane put that line in their album and sang it on the Dick Cavett Show. It was the first time the word was uttered on broadcast television.
😂
Peter Snell did a fantastic job of combining excellent soundstage capabilities with near wall positioning with the model A/III. One of the best speakers ever made in my humble opinion.
It’s been around 15 years since I “gave up” playing with stereo’s and loud speakers in my bedroom, I remember playing with positioning all over the room, stand in different parts to see how it sounded, then on days where I was home all alone I would QUICK move the whole setup into the living room and play with it in there, I miss doing that, now I’m collecting cans!
I know youre talking about "cans" in terms of headphones but its funnier to think that you had to stop with speakers in your room cause your aluminum can collection wouldnt stop rattling
Room dynamics plays a role.
If you love in the average size UK home, then Klaus’ remark about us all listening while in the centre of the room is more accurate than you think. Our homes are tiny.
Yep, he wasn't exaggerating. That's why I design my DIY speakers for going against the wall. It can be compensated for quite well when doing active correction
The depth of soundstage is an ILLUSION. There is no need for real depth to create the illusion of depth. The frequencies creating this illusion are high and upper mids which are projected forward by most loudspeakers unless dipole . Only bass frequencies are omnidirectional which is why loudspeakers have to be moved out from the wall.
yes but Mark Donen the speakers I have had at home do imaging better when they are away from sound reflecting surfaces such as a wall. It's not like leaving room for the imaginary soundscape to be created . It's just that they need to be away from flat reflective surfaces Thanks
@@adotopp1865 How would a speaker be designed to be against the wall? How to design speakers with the expectation that they will always be next to a flat reflective surface?
Stephen Gillie
The bass response, (for example) can be boosted by having them near a wall. A pair of small bookshelf speakers, like the Mission 760, which were designed to work, not toed in, but flat against a wall would be tuned to have what the designer thinks is the right amount of bass when placed up against the wall. The instruction book supplied with the speakers advised the user on speaker positioning as such.
I have Vandersteen CT Treo’s and had them positioned around 3 feet from the back wall. I went to Audio Connection to look into adding a sub woofer since I wasn’t happy with the bass response. It was recommended that I move speakers closer to the wall since they were designed to be positioned that way. I moved them to around 18 inches from the wall, and the sound improved dramatically. For what it’s worth….
Good luck Paul love your approach and enthusiasm 👍
One of my favorite speakers -- Allison One's were designed to be placed against a wall. The advantage is the wall creates an infinite baffle. What you lose in depth you gain in width. This works exceptionally well with 'forwarded' voiced systems.
Larsen Model 9 speakers. Very clever stuff. :)
Great project, Mr McGowan! I, too, live in Europe (Oxford, UK) and live in quite a small house, so placing my audio system in any of my rooms and allowing for speaker placement away from walls (especially out from room corners) is very difficult. Unfortunately, I anticipate that, if you're successful, the new speakers will necessarily be quite costly, and those able to afford such equipment will probably live in houses easily large enough to place their speakers away from the walls!
Thats a hilarious irony. Very good point.
Most Klipsch speakers are designed to be placed in the room's corners, or at least near the wall behind them (the front wall is behind the front speakers and the rear wall is behind the rear speakers). Paul Klipsch also believed that 'The smaller the room, the larger the horn is required.' This is because a larger horn provides better control over the sound, since the sound is less affected by sidewall reflections with a larger horn. I'm using Jubilee tweeters on my La Scala IIs. They''re called/nicknamed JubScala IIs. The tweeter horns are 1 metre wide, and they send the sound directly to the listener, not into the next room. Yes, the literal size is that of a large washing machine (2' wide, 3' high, and 2' deep) with a 40" flat screen TV sitting on it, but the speakers can be placed within 6 inches/15 cm of the front wall and sound just fine. No, not just fine, really fine!
Roy Allison's IC 20's were made for wall positioning, absolutely fantastic speakers.
Most active monitors nowadays have options to compensate for wall distance. The lack of this functionality in the audiophile community is baffling. Hoping you guys are able to get it working properly for your speakers.
The existence of that compensation does not mean you get the same quality with speakers close to the wall. For proper monitoring, the monitor speakers must be away from the wall, or the wall must have proper (very expensive - money consuming and space consuming) bass treatment. This is the standard view in pro-audio world, not "the audiophile community."
@@azzinny In order to get the SBIR dip well below the audible range you'd need to be unreasonably far from any wall so in any realistic situation, you should be compensating for it. Moving your speakers as close to the wall as possible will bring up the SBIR dip to a point where you can easily treat it. The rest of the coupling to the modes on that axis isn't too difficult to treat either.
@@octilliondollars I did not say about anything below 20Hz.
@@octilliondollars Listen to 2:17 of this Dynaudio Pro video. czcams.com/video/C8geEiJwj98/video.html This video is for people in pro-audio where some people do not like consumer "audiophile" or "hi-end" stuff. Note that the product in the video has more than the usual bass control you mentioned. It has DSP. However, the manufacturer is still against placing the product too close to the walls.
Gerhard What? ? What's an "Audiofile?
My dad has some Boston Acoustic speakers he bought years and years that are designed to be wall mounted and actually use the wall to transmit bass-still a fantastic sounding pair of speakers.
That’s why I have speakers with the bass ports in the front. Every rear ported speaker I reviewed in-house had some kind of a problem in my room. My von Schweikert Unifield 1 speakers fixed that problem very well with their very stiff cabinets and front ports.
Audio Note E are made to be close to walls and corners , it is calculated into the bass responce.
Some speakers are designed to be used on-wall. I love my wall-mounted Dali Rubicon LCR's in the living room. Powered by an NAD T777v3 and Dirac Live and assisted by an SVS SB-4000 sub.
hello Dali owner :)
A ha! They do exist in the wild!
This is like a video about optimizing your fuel mileage because battery cars don't exist...but they do.
Same, I have Tantra 6 LCR speakers. running Dirac Live 2.0 is the ticket
Paul, dude, you're scaring the heck out of me! Maybe it's just the camera angle but sometimes it looks like your right arm is about to destroy that tonearm!!
Anyway I wish you the best with your wall-friendly speaker project.
Back in the day I had Mission 707 speakers which were supposed to be suitable for placement close to a wall. I still have them, I had to replace the suspension foam on the mid/bass drivers after 20 years to restore them back to as new condition.
"UP AGAINST THE WALL MUTHA....!" LOL great demonstration and information!
Cardioid speakers like the Kii Audi 3 have an acosutic null at the back and can be placed pretty close to the rear wall without ill effect . If you have an opportunity to audition them , do it . They are on of the very few speakers that have constant directivity from deep bass up to high mid range and sound very good
Very noble aspirations Sir on wall / in wall speakers 👍🏽
Back in the 80's I think, I was listening to some Linn Sara Isobarik speakers in a fairly spacious soundroom at a store. The salesman assured me they sounded best against the wall. Being a soundstage fanatic I highly doubted that. He had to leave me alone in the room for a couple minutes to do something and I quickly brought them out from the back wall, about 8'. The difference was staggering. These used about an 8" driver for the bass/midrange so it never had deep bass of course but its midbass was outstanding, very uncolored and fast. MIdrange was fairly good but not as uncolored as smaller drivers were. That's just physics. The bass was not as powerful away from the wall but it was less colored, to be sure. The imaging/soundstage was broad, deep, with superb hemispherical dispersion, way beyond the speaker width and they weren't even using very good associated equipment. Even the salesman had to admit it sounded fabulous. Linn obviously told people (and designed them the best they could for close to the wall performance) to sell more speakers because of "wife resistance", one of the most troubling of all audio equipment specifications. Women tend to have little tolerance for speakers that sit in the middle of the room and not all of us can afford our own audio kingdom downstairs in our den of inequity. Looks like PS Audio has recognized the same problem and is battling it in 2022. Its not easy. Hope they do it well. They so most things well so it will probably be a very good compromise. Good speakers against the wall is better than no speakers anywhere!
I think Linn said they knew one thing about most rooms and that was they had 4 wall so designed speaker to be against a wall.I had linn Kans for 35 yrs and if I wanted more bass i'd just upgrade the LP12.Saras had one of the most enjoyable sounds for me
@@LeoShoSilva I have yet to hear a speaker that doesn't sound so much better away from walls. Its physics. Its hard to fight physics. :) They also wanted the wall excuse because of the reinforced bass it added though it wasn't natural bass. Just augmented by that wall. I bet the Kans had a more accurate midrange because they used a much smaller midrange driver. You could have just gotten a good sub but that is not cheap if it has to keep up with the speed of the Kan driver.
I just didn't like that Linn, a company of good reputation though the LP-12 was ridiculously overpriced, kept on repeating the lie that their speakers were best against a wall. Any idiot knows that wasn't true. The proof was simply moving them out from that wall! Kans, Saras, Isobariks....all great speakers that sound best well away from any wall, like every other speaker out there that attempt to image properly. (Not talking horns obviously.)
Also they're so stubborn, sticking with the same turntable design when other companies have clearly proven it inferior, especially for isolation from acoustic feedback where the LP-12 is hopeless with any speakers with low bass. And there are plenty of subs now with very low and very clean, servo controlled bass that require superior isolation in the turntable.
@@swilhelm3180 Thank you very much
Have a pair of Epicure 201's I purchased back in 1975. They are designed to be place against the wall. Refoamed the woofers and replaced the original crossover caps with polypropylene dielectric film caps. Driven by reconditioned Marantz 3200 pre-amp and Marantz 140 power amp purchased in 1976. Still use these because I haven't found anything that sounds better after all these years
My one year experience with a Focal Chorus and Aria says that they are designed specifically to be near the walls like in the living room. If you move them too much in room you will lose the bass and the total feeling of music would be hollow - that is my experience. Probably designers from Focal uses 1st order crossover in this range so they recommende minimum distance of listening postion and the speakers from each other (e.g. 2.5m for Aria 906). You have to toe them in because they have inverted dome tweater so that does not disturb wide sweet spot. The only thing is to take care in not to seat lean on the back wall. I think that's the design aims for Chorus and Aria range. Up in the range, I suppose is different because people who can afford that range probably can afford extra space for listening. I think there is something with the box. The same thing is with dynaudio excite range. Better the box, better the sound, more condition to comply.
I have a 3 way ceriwn vega 15" tower in each corner of my 14x14' bedroom. I find when the speakers are within 2-3" of the wall I get a decent sound but not great. I find if i move the towers out from the corner 8" I get great sound. Continuing to move the towers away from corners of room doesn't provide me any better sound. At that point I just end up with speakers in my way.
I turned my Pioneer FS52 towards the wall and the effect is amazing. Soundstage, clarity - gorgeous
Mind if I ask how far from the wall they are?? This sounds like a cool idea!!
Jack Allen - I have mine placed about 8 inches. I was expecting the sound to be muffled and boomy but instead it just turned into a superb lively experience.
Nikhil Gee
That's brilliant ! I like someone who tries .
Thanks!
I have actually never thought about that (except woofers) great idea.
Probably the best question yet.
I wish CZcams had the option to assign custom notification sounds for new videos from my favorite channels.
I would surely use that little clip of “Up against the wall mutha...” for yours. :)
Hahaha
Roy Allison tackled this problem back in the '60s, at AR, then came out with his own "Room-Designed" speakers in the '70s. Look him up and look up the Allison Effect.
Yep. I had a pair of Allison 3's -- corner speakers -- for 20 years. They were wonderful in my large room with a sloped ceiling. Paired with Yamaha CA2010 Integrated -- super duper. I believe Klipsch makes a couple of wall speakers, and Vandersteen.
Electro Voice Interface series are made to be placed against walls.
Their manual specifically states to place their speakers no further than 2 inches from the wall.
Cees, I agree. More than a few loudspeakers were designed to be placed against a wall. Some, like Allison speakers were designed for corner placement and the Allison 5 and 6 (Le Cube) were suggested shelf mounted. EPI-100 too. Even the mighty Klipschorns were corner speakers.
Looking forward to the results
Some unique and incredible sounding speakers -- the omnidirectional Ohm Walsh series of speakers -- actually are designed to be placed close to walls
The German Dynaudio folks recommend bringing the listener and speakers in 1/5th into the room. I use this and sit 1/3d into the room with my short wall setup. This still leaves some normal living space ;-)
KEF LS50s come with 2 types of foam port plugs for near wall positions. I run my Living room system ones less than 2 ft from the long wall. They sound wonderful image really well (width, heighT & depth)!
Corner horns...
Corner horns are designed to go into the corners, and use the walls as part of the horn loading.
You will be very hard pressed to find better sound stage, transparency, and imaging at any price than what you get with a corner horn. And since they use horn loaded drivers, they tend to be the most efficient speakers available, dB over 100 is pretty common.
An added benefit is they sit where reverberations tend to accumulate, making it easier to perform acoustic treatment to the room.
@Larry Niles Obviously not. I'm guessing the designers and other customers think so as well.
Yep, they sound awesome !!! I'm addicted to horns 😎
Paul, Thanks for the walking back and forth demo in this video, it truly made me realize just how important the placement is!! I could tell a HUGE difference even on youtube! My speakers are away from the wall a good 4 or so feet if for no other reason than I want to be able to get behind them and my system to change things out and check components etc. Great video!!
He also walked further away from the microphone 🤔
I must be very lucky that my Linn Kan2's sound so blinking good in my living room (5mts by 4.5 mts.)approx 165 mms away from the back wall.Superb imaging,depth and stunning bass.Maybe because they are based on the superb BBC/Acoustic Research design of sealed enclosures?
All on Paul's suggestions a few years ago I tried pulling my speakers towards my listening position (the couch) about three and a half feet away from the foward wall, towing them in just slightly and running a full signal to a pair of subwoofers in stereo with only the left channel going to the sub on the left and right channel only going to the sub on the right with the volume on both set to where you wouldn't even know they are there, but surely know if they weren't, had a bigger improvement to the overall sound to my system than the last time I upgraded speakers.
SBIR (Speaker boundary interference response) has a big destructive affect on the sound from a speaker indoors, (less SBIR effects outside, sometimes only the ground bounce). This room acoustic topic needs way more focus when talking speaker placement. I would highly recommend placing your speakers up against your front wall if possible (without the cabinet or cables coupling with the boundery behind it). By doing so, your SBIR effect is gonna be higher up in frequency and therefore way easier to reduce with broadband absorption. Sure, you will get more bass (maybe to much, so that the tonal balance gets tilted and bass heavy) by placing your speakers in a pressure max zone, but that's usually easly tackled by the use of DSP or another shelf type EQ.
Controlled cardioid bass and lower mid dispersion is the key to getting speakers near the front wall. Gayle Sanders, Kii Audio and Dutch & Dutch have products that allow near wall placement already. However, in wall or soffit mounting has been a studio standard for main monitors for ever.
I'm 42 yes old. I've lived with music before I was born, because my father is audiophile :) three days ago the thought came to my mind, and this thought was from HEAVEN - "direct your speakers towards the wall"... at first I thought that I'm nuts... OK, but I did this. And 3 days ago my life has changed completely! I've never had such an experience. My room is now is like a concert hall, I hear all nuances, I can to breath deeply. Now I SEE the soundstage!
I'm telling you - just turn around your speakers!
...
BUT!
--> You NEED to reverse polarity in speakers!
You get great soundstage, but LF are getting fucked pretty bad, so maybe with a subwoofer and LF cut would be something worth doing.
I've got my speakers against the wall coz they blow from the front. There pioneer vm80's I used them for my home dj use and they are fantastic and I have them ear height. But I do have pads on the wall the coz of neighbours.
Acoustic Reaserach (AR) addressed this way back in the '60's with the LST. It was designed to be placed against the wall. It took advantage of loading to the wall surface for extended bass, "pi space", pi being the acoustic wave travelling in a shpere from the sourcxe. and. 2pi, 4pi, .... And to elminate surface reflections at higher frequencies. They were designed for 1/2 or 2pi space.
Because low frequencies are omni-directional, have longer wavelengths, pass though less dense surfaces, .... low frequencies (around 60hz or less) vibrate the entire speaker cabinet in most cases and sound waves travel spherically from the entire cabinet. Unlike mids or highs which tend to beam or project only forward from the drivers. And wavelengths are large. If numbers and memory serves, a 30hz wave requires 45 sg ft of surface to porperly load.
Klipsch went to loading the bass driver through a horn assembly that included the room's wall surfaces from the corners out for loading. The walls were literally part of the driver's loading.
The LST used the wall surface by being put in the middle of the wall, using half of the spherical wave from the cabinet to load across the wall. Thus 1/2 or 2pi space. This provides that part of thee wave to be reflected into the listen space without the phase problems normally associated with reflected waves. The reflection was in perfect sync. 3db of gain. Or more correctly, not losing 3db.
They later came out with the Model 9 series. Two woofers on the sides of the cabinet by the floor each firing away from the the other. Designed to load to the floor/wall intersection and get 1/4 or 4pi space. a 6db of gain. Then a "Sonic Blanket" was put on the speaker mounting board to absorb all acoustic wave that normally travel from mid and tweeters across the mpounting board and disapate ate wavelength distances at cabinet edges. So the floor/ backwall reflections are fully controlled and used to it's advantage.
My Kii three’s speakers do a awesome job even with the closeness of the speakers to side and back wall. The Kontrol device works out that issue.
So what do you do if you can't (and never will be able to) afford $20K speakers? BTW, congrats. Those Kii 3s look AWESOME!
Happy with my AR9s very close to the wall...but I wouldn't push them for a small room in any case.
The best "against the wall" loudspeakers I've ever heard were those by Larsen HiFi from Sweden. However, they are deliberately designed to be placed ONLY against the wall in front of the listener for proper imaging and performance. Their Model 4 is about $2K/pair, the Model 6 is about $4K/pair, the Model 8 is about $7K/pair and the top of the line comes in around $15K/pair. Unlike most every other high-end speakers, they are designed to blend in and not stand out...though the Model 9 is the first Larsen that really is stupidly gorgeous. But then, most people who drop fifteen grand for a pair of speakers usually want to show their investment off. Compared to classically designed speakers, the Larsens are surprisingly compact. However, don't let their compact dimensions fool you into thinking they have anemic bass performance. In fact, quite the opposite is true in my experience listening to them. Prepare to be gobsmacked by impactful, very low distortion and harmonically accurate bass down in the high 20Hz region for the smallest Model 4 down to the low 20Hz range for the upper three models, thanks to room loading. Honestly, it has to be heard to be believed. Honestly, I cannot think of a better high-end loudspeaker for audiophiles in smaller digs who want spectacularly high-quality sound but don't want to upend their living room decor and really piss of their spouse. The only negative I can think of is that these Swedish-made marvels of rock solid acoustical engineering don't come cheap. However, if I had to downsize to considerably more compact digs, the Larsens are the only option I'd consider. Give them a listen...
Yes - I was going to bring up Jim Larsen's little marvels. I started with the model 6 and loved them so much that when the 9's came out, I made the investment. They not only sound good against the wall, they cast a gloriously large image that reminds me of the Magnapan Tympani's that was my aspirational speaker as a young, low budget audiophile. BTW, even with the Larsens, it makes sense to place with minor adjustments in distance from the rear wall. I landed at about 12" in my room. I second Woofy's suggestion that anyone who is space limited give the Larsen's a try. . . If Paul and PS are successful in the mission he laid out in this great video - there will be another option soon!
"up against the wall motha" LOL that was out of character
Ohm walsh solved this problem a long time ago, they recommend you put them against the wall, one of best speakers I've owned
Great Q&A. Good luck On your quest Paul.
I've previously ownded & in-part, enjoyed "Wharfdale Airdale" speakers which were designed to sit in room corners where their front facet that could be angled to some degree around the speaker front's perpendicular direction of a 45 deg' line accross the room, with a triangular void behind them in the room corners, good for space-saving despite their enormous size. They had a seperated upper section which was effectively 100% open-baffle, despite their look, to the rear & front & sides, they contained (all paper units) an upward firing 8" inch mid & 4" treble unit mouted to fire vertically upwards from their top horizontal aligned baffles, you could see their mid & treble cone's backsides from anywhere in front of them (in brighter light) through the upper-section'd wrap-around speaker cloth & with a 15" forward firing bass from the self contained very large bottom section which was vertically slit-vented to the rear & the narrow front-side facets (from the vertically downwsrd projection, their horizontal cross section was an elongated diamond shape, & hard to describe how they used rear corner & 1 side-wall to help scatter the rear-cone's sound output latterally around the room. They were, i guess, 60 or 70 Kg humungous beasts & =/> a 3-man lift to get up the stairs into my flat. They sounded fantastic on tv / home cinema with subwoofer beating bass (imo) They well suited some brighter CDs & accoustic instruments inc' Trad Jazz was a great sound on some vinyl L.P.s. Highly efficient but always a little to soft in upper-mid & treble energy for most music when at the listening sofa. (Lying on your back on the floor close to in-line & inbetween them was a big, a very big improvement in sound where you got direct mid & treble ceiling reflections bouncing directly down to your head but hardly conducive for comfortable listening & a non-starter for inviting friends around for a music listening session! "Now you lay there, & you lay with your legs in that direction & i'll lay with my head over here, while you can...." I was always trying to improve them for more traditional seated listening, like adding a 45' degree angle piece of wood, then 2 cut metal sheets to throw more hi'mid & treble energy forward from the upward firing units ...it didn't help but made mid & treble worse in fact, maybe my small flat of that day & side wall window curtains almost touching them didn't help but thankfully, i got many more £'s back than i payed s/h when i put them on eBay.
Ive never ownded speakers designed for "backs against the wall" placement & the only other speakers i had that were designed for angled in-corner placement were "Tannoy Corner Yorks" s/h early 80's but my 1970'ish British Hi-Fi Year Book showed how you could buy "Tannoy Yorks" as 2 corner speakers, or as 1 corner unit with a rectangular speaker for normal (near wall?) placement, or as 2 rectangular 'York' speakers. (A most odd combo of speaker shape options i'd ever seen offered ...rather, the only option of any one speaker model's shape in fact. At lesst they were tring & they sounded very much better than the "Wharfdale Airdales" I had the 2 vintage Tannoy "Corner Yorks" they were much shorter & smaller & used 1 forward mounted 12" inch dual concentric driver with rear & partial side slit venting. Can't wait to see what you P.S. guys are going to come up with for "against the wall" placement speakers.
Instead of taking space from back, take it from below. But that might require tall speakers, and flipped speaker output rotation to go up. Unless you also have the top opening angled with its inner top edge at an acute cutoff angle, and the speaker opening basically more open to allow much more necessary(?) air/space out for listening (for each speaker). Just use tightly-held meshy fabric for its openings, and potentially few bars/pieces (as much out of the way as possible) to prevent ripping it/putting fingers/stuff in.
Kii and Dutch&dutch are working in this... but anyways allways thought that Speakers placement have more to do with microphone placement.... and mic always goes between the stage and the audience thats is like 1/3 of the room
Erick Yes but you can put a mic anywhere can't you?
Most adroit response I have heard in years about this problem!
@@carlfuggiasco7495 I had to google 'adroit' I never heard this word before - I like it thanks!
Paul, Ohm Speakers which are omi-directional almost recommend that they are as close to the wall as possible. It's a very unique design. They've been around for over 40 years (made in Brooklyn 👍🏽). Have you heard them recently? and if so what's your opinion? Btw, luv your videos and the extensive professional knowledge you share with us. ✊🏽
Love the way you explain the chosen questions with detail and enthusiasm for the knowledge hunger audience. But wouldn't the video be even better if the horizon would be straight? Also Oh what a mission you have ahead of you :) Good luck!
Back in the late '70s early '80s Allison Research made speakers designed to be put up against walls. And don't forget the big Klipsch corner horns.
Hmmm, if speakers front panel with drivers is almost flat with the wall there is no bouncing from that wall soundwave just travel with uniform wavefront from the source to other walls.. That is one reason why big studio monitors are flush mounted in front wall of mixing room.
If you put speaker in room, like all audiophiles do, wall behind speakers becomes active reflection sufrace, and all you can do is tune speakers best you can with that surface, in terms of direct vs. reflected sound.
What about some bookshelf speakers that has the vent on the front? Does the distance from the wall still matter? And can it still gets the "sound appearing behind the speaker" effect?
Hi Paul, will the new speakers start at bookshelf size? If so could the dsp be used to also cater to the home studio market? As we are facing the same issues your r&d will be tackling and would only require a extra preset with a flat response to make it work, based on my very basic understanding that nearfields monitors and bookshelf speakers are quite similar. Cheers Dan
I'm not sure if DSP correction from the speaker itself is going to work. Surely you need to deal with this from the listening position? I mean whatever the speaker can automatically pick up from where it's placed won't be representative of what's actually going on from where you're listening, right?
As far as I understand, room correction (which is what we're talking about) is basically just EQ-ing your system to sound as flat as possible from the position you're listening. Products like Sonarworks are great for that. However, even Sonarworks won't solve the issues completely. The frequency response will become quite accurate, but all they do is EQ. But the speakers are still in a room (so reverberation will still happen), the speakers will also still have characteristics that can't be dealt with using equalizers.
A speaker against the wall will excite the low frequencies more, and those extra low frequencies will also be out of phase from where you're listening. So what will happen is that things sound super boomy in one position, but tinny in other positions in the room. And that is exacerbated because it's also reverberating in the room. Equalizers just can't negate that..
So whatever you do, positioning your speakers away from the wall will be the best first step. The room will be less of an issue, and room correction DSP stuff like Sonarworks will have less to do.
Just got a vintage pair of Duntech reference speakers pcl-5. And they are simply the oddest surprise. And made to go against a wall.
hi Paul, my Naim SBL speakers work great up against the wall. Worth checking out their design decisions. :)
Great question. One has to remember though that at the beginning of high end audio, about a century ago, give or take, the first serious speakers were in fact designed to work against the wall and needed the wall in order to function. These still exist and are very sought after.
The other thing to keep in mind is that such speakers still exist but are not considered that high end nowadays, hence they are not so common: they are called bookshelf speakers.
The answer to the question, I think, is simple: living rooms are not auditoriums and are not designed by audio engineers. They are also very different to one another. For these two reasons, no pair of speaker can be designed that requires a specific positioning that is close to the walls that would accommodate a large variety of living rooms. Add to that the fact that, until recently, a pair of speakers was probably the last addition to a living room - and certainly far from the first - which means that there already is stuff near the walls already.
bookshelf speakers aren’t designed for a wall lol
Ohm Acoustics recommends that their Walsh speakers be placed close to walls back or side and they do sound best that way with phenomenal imaging and the whole room is the sweet spot. Zeos "Z review" rates Walsh 2000 as the best speaker ever and I agree.
@Nat N He admits that his target audience is teenagers as they will be purchasing audiophile equipment in 15 years,He does have some clout see ohmacoustics.createsend1.com/t/ViewEmail/j/4F82194CF6787CBE2540EF23F30FEDED/D8029D92BF7A19744BD7C9066BE4161D
Zeos www.bing.com/search?q=Zeos+to+feature+Ohm+3000+speakers&form=PRUSEN&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&refig=acd967c6c05941f1a4b713b2d4e2b4c3&sp=-1&ghc=1&pq=zeos+to+feature+ohm+3000+speakers&sc=0-33&qs=n&sk=&cvid=acd967c6c05941f1a4b713b2d4e2b4c3
@Nat N see Zeos www.bing.com/search?q=Zeos+to+feature+Ohm+3000+speakers&form=PRUSEN&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&refig=acd967c6c05941f1a4b713b2d4e2b4c3&sp=-1&ghc=1&pq=zeos+to+feature+ohm+3000+speakers&sc=0-33&qs=n&sk=&cvid=acd967c6c05941f1a4b713b2d4e2b4c3
I have Athena WS-60 speakers upstairs designed to be on the wall. They are great for theater duty and not bad at all for music. Company was bought out though.
There are downward firing subs. What about rear firing bookshelf speakers on stands, 2’ from the front wall?
Hmmm I have a set of mission 734i and they are recommended to be used up against a wall. They sound amazing. However I have monitor audio RS6 and they sound epic away from the wall, not so good near the wall.
So in my experience some speakers are better nearer the wall.
It's down to taste perhaps.
Interesting video! Most enjoyable
The real reason you do not want to place dipoles close to the rear wall is the fact that the rear radiation needs to be delayed at least 6 milliseconds for it to be recognised as indirect sound by the ear (and brain) At 344 m/sec speed of sound , this turns out to require at least a 1 meter distance from the rear wall . The same requirements and even more stringent apply to omnipoles : minimum distance of 1 meter from each wall . Dipoles can be placed closer to side walls as they have an acoustic null at 90 degrees
My speakers, Ino Audio piP, are designed to play against the wall. Doing that those small 4" woofers can play down to 30hz really clean and nicely!
What about side DiPoles like the Monitor Audio FX speakers? Is it best to set them to DiPole if they're near a corner?
"Up against the wall, Mother"...LOL Paul!
As a speaker is placed closer to the wall, it will excite standing wave modes more intensely. The frequency response curve will be more uneven.
Those who think bass controls in active monitor speakers can solve the problem never ever measured in-room response, or have no ability to interpret measurement.
How would a speaker be designed to take advantage of exciting these standing wave modes? Could it use the wall for additional amplification?
Read up on SBIR.
What about front ported bass reflex speakers? Many high-end JBL speakers use this type of design.
Is it possible to get a speaker to throw an image forwards rather than behind them ? Every speaker I know throws an image behind them and the image depth is limited visually by the front wall. If you shut your eyes you can get the image OK but it is hard to get the brain to project an image through a wall when your eyes are open.
Yes, my system projects a forward image, so you get an image of a singer or a sax centred forward into the room between of the speakers. There is also some depth behind the speakers but is not as consistent on my system. On some tracks you do get a sense of depth that goes through the walls and can sound quite deep even when your eyes are open.
Closing your eyes is the cheapest upgrade!
@@20CycleMonger Doesn't really work.
@@kingmonkey88
Of course it's recording dependent.
Imagination helps :-D
@@20CycleMonger Yes it's the best way to stabilize the illusionary image
I had Elac FS127 wich had a bass opening in the back, I had to put them 3 feet away from the wall. Now I have Sonus Faber Veners S, they have a downfire system, opening on the bottom, I can put them very close to the wall.
I wish we had active speaker more affordable than the state of the art Kii monitor with similar performance... I have installed unobstrusive absorption panels on certain reflections zones, but bass traps simple don't fit my living room (if any living room...).
But Paul, two feet IS one third into my room! I would prefer my speakers to work well approx. 1 foot (or less if possible) into the room. I am currently using a pair of Epos ES11's at that distance with minimal bass reinforcement or colouration.
2 feet is a third of your room? Holy shit! I think my bathroom is the only room that small in my house. That sounds like a prison cell. Maybe you should stick to headphones. LOL :-D
Roy , where do you live ? in a shed?
Try some old Boston Acoustics A series. Like A75, A100, or A150 etc. They're designed to go right against the back wall, are very cheap on the used market, and sound great. I would suggest Klipsch Cornwall's, but your room is way too small for them. There's others too that are designed to work against the wall, but you'll have to do some research. These are the only ones I can remember right off the top of my head. Good luck.
BTW if you're anywhere near Rhode Island/SE Massachusetts. I have a pair of A100's that need to be refoamed. They were given to me when I bought some speakers from a fellow AudioKarma member. They still have the original box. I've never looked at them, but I think he said they're in good shape. And of course I can check them out, if you're interested. If you promise to fix ($25 DIY), and use them. You can have them for free.
@@amb3cog Thanks for the generous offer but I live in the U.K. I think landowners are very greedy here, which explains the size of the rooms! I still very much enjoy the sounds that I get from my system, but I know that more space would allow the system to breathe.
@@MrGorpm Oh I knew it was a one in a million shot, but worth a try.
I would concentrate on studio monitors maybe, or other small speakers that work good near boundaries. One's that are designed for near field in particular. But that also work at a bit of a distance too.
Zero Fidelity is getting ready to review the Amphion Helium 410's soon, and they're designed to work well in the near field. They use something they call Uniformly Directive Diffusion to help with this. Including being close to the back walls. They explain this a little at their site.
amphion.fi/enjoy/products-home-audio/helium-410-desktop-loudspeaker/
Anyway, speakers like that would do the trick. That way you'll get that breathing room you're looking for. Just take your time, and keep researching before you buy though. Because there's so many choices. If you don't, you may regret your purchase. Which has happened to me more then once, even after looking for months, but the longer you research, the better IMO. Good luck. ✌️
Flat panel speakers I saw on some dudes channel. They radiate from a plane instead of a cone woofer. I’m they use some vibrational actuator not sure. Cover mids to highs. Add a subwoofer and you can do it.
I’m a little disappointed you made no mention of kornerhorns, ie my Klipsch AK6’s which of course live against the wall, albeit the corner walls!
Paul ! You can achieve this by putting a mid-range to tweeter, like the ATC soft dome driver out of phase on a slope at 45° on the back baffle, slightly wider than the driver baffle, pointing inwards from the back of the speaker. you might need a lip on the outer edge of the speaker's about half an inch. depth same thing at a 45 degree angle beading slope to minimise Wrap around.
And Your restricting the output of the driver to very small amount the wall acts as a horn anyway, you have to balance the output of the back driver very small output paid to the front drivers, this will achieve your goal of depth of field.
I don't understand why you don't go with a ASP...? is a better system than the DSP I like to listen to analogue not digital out of my speakers, if you can tell me why DSP is better than ASP I am all ears Paul willing to listen. Try that suggestion I I think that will work for you. You might want to line the back of the speaker baffle on the outside with 1/4" of felt would help as well.
Was anyone else terrified Paul's elbow was gonna take out that tonearm?! So glad it didn't!
Wilson Audio Duettes tried to tackle this. They came with two sets of cables to use between the speakers and their external crossovers, and an assortment of resistors, to shape their sound when used in a cabinet or near-wall and used in 'free air'.
speaker placement is critical together with room acoustics. My best result was with electrostatics in a room which was shielded from reflexions and sitting in the hot spot. Great sound.
now moved to beolab 90 in a larger room took many months to create that intimate feeling -- great speakers if fed with good material.
The system has to do two things audio and movies very different requirements for the movies two svs ultra pb 16 subs martin logan centre and magnapan sides (had the maggies so why not use them)
the audio is running through a streamer into the lab 90's (they have their own dacs) imaging is almost there great pseudo centre, but very recording dependent.
Don’t believe the hype that these speakers are plug and play setup is plug and pray Part of the enjoyment is the setup for me that is -- superb recordings are hard to find. Yes have a wife and am lucky that the room is under my control.
Just my thoughts and enjoy music
Great video! Look forward to your perspectives on why flat response curves are not ideal for hifi speakers.
Some speakers are designed to be placed against the wall. Some Danish speaker manufacturers do it as well as Ohm Walsh 2000 made in Brooklyn.
I should add that 18 inches is optimum but if you want more bass move them closer . Also both speakers need to "see" each other for the best imaging and the wide and deep sound stage they are capable of and known for. Of note is a free 120 day free at home trial.
best explanation i have ever heard,great demo.many thx
Fantastic topic 👌👏
I keep hearing about "infinite baffle" speakers where the width of the speaker is infinite (in theory). Would designing the woofer / sub woofer cabinet to be narrow in depth, but wide in width help reduce the acoustic coupling with the wall and the floor?
Also, as low frequencies will acoustically couple with the floor and walls (especially if put in a corner) why do many if not all speakers have the woofer and sub built closest to the floor? If the woofer/sub were moved to just above listening height would that help reduce the acoustic coupling?
I seem to remember the original Linn speakers - Kan, Sara and Isobarik, were designed to work against a wall, or close to it. Didn't stop the 'bariks gaining near legendary status. Not my taste though, I'm a Maggies man, and have been since I first heard them 30 years ago. Boxes usually suck - they sound like boxes. Maggies sound open and natural, with amazing definition and power when called for - just like music does.
Thats way Steinway Lyngdorf is ahead of various highend manufacturer. They make state of art dsp and dipoles.
Paul, would moving my AR3a's or my stacked Large Advents (Bullnose w non-fried egg tweeters) out from the wall apply here? Would these speakers be considered dipole? Gotta say my stacked large Advents have blown away some pretty hard core audiophiles (driven by my Sansui G-9000). I can drive my AR3a's with a pair of MC-30's if you can believe it.
Modern flat screen TV sets have speakers in the back and are meant to be placed nearly against the wall. Of course, there is a big market for alternate speaker systems because of this feature.
I realize it isn’t HiFi but I often place my phone in an optimal distance from a wall, especially in a corner, where the room magically give my phone the base response it lacks on its own. Really makes it sound a lot better :)
Buy some older McIntosh line arrays designed to be placed next to walls with tweeter columns on the wall itself , the XRT-22 is excellent for tight wall placement .
I design my speakers for against the wall. I am American.
I have always done this since the 80's.
Of course, you can have reflections but, speaker manufacturers can not change that. The man or woman has to treat their room. Sorry, it is up to you if you want good sound. The good thing is, you can fix the room and still live in it.
If you want depth, design the speaker correctly.
Won't placing sound absorbing material or sound diffuser on the wall behind the speaker help? So less low frequency distortion?
You say "2 feet from the wall will be optimum for the speakers." Does that mean 2 feet from the wall to the front baffle or the rear baffle?
Go for it!
I am making a pair of speakers with 3" full range drivers with a hole drilled through them to accommodate a stick and a stripped down (silent) tweeter mounted at the rear of the FR driver, and the very thin stick is mounted to the tweeter voice coil and it pokes through the hole. And a tiny foil "tizzer" is glued to the end of the stick and is exactly level with the start of the FR cone. Extended high frequency point source sound on the cheap! And an extra (non point source) woofer under. But there will be feeble bass output in the FR driver as well to blend the bass. Will be the best speakers I have made (hopefully). 3" med is quick med (great transient response).
I made some similar speakers with 4" FR drivers with piezo's mounted in the cores of the 4" FR drivers (also drilled) and the med was way better than my 6.5" 2 ways. The 4" speaker had that delicate and resonance free voice sound. It's simply the smallness of the med driver that does it. I did the tests, and it's convinced me. I reckon the stripped down tweeter with the stick&tizzer will sound a lot better than the piezos for extended treble on the FR drivers.
It's now weeks later and the speakers are finished. The best speakers I have ever made. I'm gunna make more and make the 2-way coaxial drivers and sell them to people who want to make their own speakers. czcams.com/video/UlJHRQidsvI/video.html
HUH????
@@johnwohlheter601 I'll see if I can get my old camera working and make a video soon. I do have a video of a (woofer&tweeter) point source coaxial driver. It's made the same way but just bigger. It may answer a couple of your questions. Thanks for your curiosity: czcams.com/video/ABd7M7WbbXU/video.html
@@johnwohlheter601 czcams.com/video/UlJHRQidsvI/video.html
I found that placing my speakers flat against the side walls then moved them back touching the rear walls it created a lovely woofey boxey sound that sounds really good around 250Hz.. 😆
cp, placing speakers against a wall enforces bass response. Moving them to corners adds more bass and three corner (floor/ceiling, and corner) adds even more. Maybe too much. If that's how you like it, I agree. Free bass extension. Always good to experiment with placement till you find your particular "sweet spot".
If your going to work out a dsp built into a speaker. You should be working with Audio Control yes i know its mostly a 12volt or car audio company, then you could also look at Jeff Scoon from JL Audio I know youve heard of him.
Becuse both companys have been building DSP units for years. And there is not much difference between a 12volt item and something that runs off of 120 volts. Most of your 120volt items use a 12 volt power supply to drop the voltages. It dosnt run off of 120 volts directly to the circut board.
Speaking of powering a dsp in a speaker, the power supply cannot be in the speaker cabnits and honestly it should be with the power supply that can listen to the speaers output and make changes, or you can analyze the signal and make changes to fit your taste.
Thats how you would do a speaker by the wall system.
How does drywall change the frequency of sound as well as the reflection of the 500 to 700 hz, and would you recommend sound deadening material behind the speaker?
They need room to breathe also walls are reflect sound waves this can throw off the time alinment when the sound hits your ears. This will cause the sound stage to shift. Gee mono was so much simpler