I Found a 130 Year Old Solution for the Marble Machine
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- čas přidán 18. 05. 2024
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Hi Martin,
Have you ever considered an Eddy Current brake for your speed governor? This could be as simple as an aluminium or copper (conductive, nom-magnetic material) disc, which rotates through a fixed set of permanent magnets facing one another. The moving disc through the magnetic field induces a current in the disc, which creates its own magnetic field which opposes the field of the magnets, creating resistance. The resistance is directly proportional to the speed, so it is self-regulating. The speed/torque relationship can be altered by changing the diameter of the disc, the strength (or quantity) of the magnets, and the gap.
Many roller coasters around the world now use Eddy Current brakes (using a linear fin on the train passing through fixed magnets on the track) because of their smooth stopping effect (because the braking force lowers as the train slows down, like you would let up on the brake pedal when stopping when driving, to reduce jerk), reliability and lack of maintenance.
This type of speed governor would operate silently, with no moving parts (other than the disc itself), and no wear.
I suspect this comment will get lost in the sea but I hope it does find you and you give it a think :)
Cheers,
-Iain
amazing suggestion, silent and effective.
There’s a few big problems I see with this: The marble machine uses a fly wheel with a REALLY high moment of intertidal, so in order to achieve any significant stopping forces, it would have to have an incredibly strong magnet. The machine is also meant to be hand powered, largely, so powering any electromagnets would be a problem in itself.
I thought heat affected resistance, (more heat = less braking?), and with constant speed control the resulting eddy currents would introduce heat into this kind of regulation system. Not sure how quickly heat would build up, (could probably measure the disc temp on an eddy current spin bike as an indication), or what the relationship would be between temperature delta and bpm
You could measure disc speed and adjust the power to an electromagnet to compensate, but you do start to veer away from a pure mechanical music machine then!
Eddy currents could also be used in combination with the existing flyball governor. Instead of pulling a plastic disc against a friction pad, it could pull an aluminum disc closer to a magnet.
@@mahekorvenoges550 True. I still worry about the amount of force required and how much that would heat up everything
Fun fact: The video data on a VHS is stored in diagonal to also make better use of the tape. Similar concept to the spiral.
How would that make sense? Couldnt make the reading head small enough at the time so the tracks could be moved closer to each other?
Also works perfectly in sync with reading the tape quickly at fast speeds
Correct, the video is read by the drumhead by way of helical scan. But the audio itself is stored in a separate linear track at the edge of the tape. Quite the juxtaposition.
I wonder why he doesn’t use a belt for this, it seems like a much more efficient use of space, and if he wants even longer tracks he can use the cam trick to slide the belt along.
@@D3nn1s Even modern tape drives used for datacenter backup systems use diagonal magnetic recording. Check out some videos about how VHS actually works on Technology Connections channel.
Use water as a propulsion weight. This way you don't have to transport this weight to every performance.
This is smart, and practical!
What if he performs in a desert? He has to plan for that. Or in the moon...
@@ricardoalves3475Right? What if he plays in outer space?
Put sand into the weight hopper@@ricardoalves3475
It may or may not matter. THis machine is going to be big and heavy regardless. It's going to need to be moved via forklift and hand trucks. A couple hundred extra pounds of steel won't matter that much. But in the early stages of design it might be easier to use a water tank as a weight instead of a big chunk of steel. It will be cheaper and also drainable for moving it around.
Its so good to see Martin's enthusiasm growing, and returning! with every video
It better, if he's losing confidence and motivation this whole community goes down with it.
Monetary income has that effect.
And after building the new machine: "Oh no, MM3 is a big failure.... I can´t play tight music. I have to start over again..." yadayadayada .. MMX was perfect as it was.. a few minor changes / fixes & hotfixes and go..
@@2nd3rd1st would that be a bad thing?
@@thomasbecker9676 Shocking news, content creator getting paid for (check notes) creating content. Fans are in shambles, more at 8.
Rather than a spiral programming wheel, it may be more useful to have a wheel with selectable parallel tracks - so you can keep playing a particular 8-bar loop as many times as you like, but switch to another loop by moving it a few mm left or right.
It could also work by just having the vibraphone read both tracks but muting one of them.
I'd happily watch you restore / examine antique mechanical instruments all day long , hope you keep producing this kind of content after the inevitable world tour! 😊
It would be very cool if you programmed a custom song for the Swedish table.
Or use the original song from that table on his marble machine 😅
The original marble machine song on that table would be epic.
The original song (at least the one played in the video) is called "Och flickan hon går i ringen" and is an very old circle dance (maybe as old as from the 14th hundreds!).
@@ajbp95, cool! What does the title mean?
And bring it to the tour 🤩
Spiral programming is such a simple and elegant solution to increasing song length without increasing the cylinder size. I'm glad you found out about it and showed it to all of us here!
It's such a great idea to look at old mechanical instruments for ideas. People spent hundreds of years perfecting the mechanics.
The flyball governor prototype is creating a noticeable amount of noise. Most of the instruments in the museum seem to use an air brake instead, probably for that reason. The phonograph is the only exception, but that makes sense because the phonograph would be quite loud compared to most instruments, enough that the extra noise doesn't really matter.
Super vid! There is always the idea I told you about a few years ago - a programming belt instead of a drum - Older non CNC machines ran on these coding belts - a belt can be much longer than a drum circumference and make use of 2, 3 or 4 smaller rollers to extend the play length.
Back to the beginning. The very first videos on this channel were about programming a music box by punching holes in paper tape.
@@mahekorvenoges550 Very cool ideas indeed. But, I've no idea how you'd trigger the (what are they called? Marble droppers? Marble gates?) using punched holes. I am definitely not an engineer by any means, so this is somewhat beyond my understanding.
Actually I just had a thought: music boxes that use punched cards are still technically using pins on a rotating wheel. Or in this case, it's multiple (small) wheels, 1 for each note. These wheels are allowed to freely rotate when the holes in the card pass over the pins on the wheels. So the pinned wheels are not the musical score like they are on a cylinder-style music box, rather the punchcard is the musical score; the pinned wheels are simply the triggers for the notes and the punchcard's holes trigger their rotation.
Maybe something like this could be done on the new marble machine. A hole in the punch card (or belt, or whatever) passes over a pin on its corresponding wheel; another pin on the exact same wheel would then trigger the corresponding "marble dropper" as the wheel rotates.
Or, alternatively, the belt itself might have little "pins" on its surface, at specific places on the belt, and those pins might directly activate the "marble droppers", thus eliminating the need for those multiple wheels I mentioned above. So this is more similar to having the pinned cylinder as the musical score but without the limitations of a cylinder; here you'd be using a linear object instead of a repeatedly-looping cylinder. You'd get the same musical benefits as you'd get with a punch card.
@@justinnaramor6050you push compressed air against the paper and when there's a hole, the puff of air activates the mechanism. At least, that's my understanding of how a player piano functions
@@dukeofgibbon4043 Yes, that's basically how a player piano works. Perhaps a similar methodology could also be used for the new MM.
W pfp moment
Classic CZcams moment
I like
Genius comment
lol what happened
@@juandinner8877yt failed to load wintergatan's pfp in feed and just displays W(the first letter of the channel name)
This takes me back to the old Music Machine Mondays. Feels like you’re getting your groove back!
You should test how your governor solutions behave in response to a heavier load and to changing load conditions. It's a feedback control loop problem, and the load is a very important part of the equation.
True. For now, with only one lane, this isn't an issue, but surely it will become something to test in the future.
By using logic I would theorize that a (magnetic) friction governor should be able to handle load differences, because it automatically changes the load and balance towards a preset speed. This should mean that as long as the force driving is large enough and as long as the governor's ability to add load by increasing friction is large enough, a stable speed should be reached every time.
Small variations in the load while playing will be balanced out by the flywheel, as long as the flywheel is strong enough.
So the combination of flywheel and friction governor should do it.
I guess the friction profile as a function of speed is so none linear it's basically an infinite gain loop. I don't think there is any bandwidth problem but I may be wrong.
@@jonasdaverio9369 A control loop that has too rapid of a response will not be stable. It would overshoot and oscillate.
In general, control loops have a range of conditions where they will give the desired response (respond rapidly enough while not having too much overshoot). In order to design a control loop, you need to know what range of conditions it has to handle.
@@AdelaeR a flywheel does help smooth out transients. However, a larger flywheel and a bigger load from the machine also means the governor is less effective. It may take a long time to settle at the desired set point, or settle on a point that is different from the one that was set. In a control loop like this, all of the parts (the load, the flywheel, the governor, etc) affect each other. A well designed loop would have a range of conditions where it is stable and responds sufficiently quickly. But it can't be evaluated properly with no load, since this is very far from the conditions it needs to operate in.
My feeling is he should separate the programming wheel from the marble recycling. The wheel should have relatively stable load, and it's the most important to keep a steady beat. The power to lift marbles will be more variable, but is not as sensitive to speed fluctuation.
I have a mechanical engineering degree and I am so thankful this channel exists. So many fascinating things I would not have known about before discovering this channel, thank you for showing the mechanical instrument museum, I'd love to visit one day.
Interesting note: in colloquial English we sometimes say "we are going balls to the wall", where many people think it's reference to the male anatomy, whereas it is actually a reference to a flyball governor!
Yeah, I always thought it meant over-revving the engine and spinning the balls so fast that they flew off the machine and hit the wall.
I heard balls to the wall was used in aviation, where u push the levers for power, mixture and prop-angle to the wall (forward). The ends of those levers have knobs or balls on them.
@@mettalforever I think the expression stated in England with stationary steam engines, but in any case nothing to do with male anatomy
Martin- You can have unlimited playing time, even an entire concert, without having to reconfigure the machine. Look into the control mechanism for the Jacquard Loom. It uses rigid punch cards to encode information, and you can stack any number of cards linked together in a belt. There are even large symphonium devices that were built using these cards to play a calliope, drums, cymbals and bells in one machine. The only trick is the card feeder and reader, because it works better with holes encoding the notes instead of pegs. ( flat cards with holes in them can stack ) These were used in the weaving industry to be able to automate looms for weaving an unlimitedly complex pattern. For a longer piece of music you just added more cards to the chain. The one I saw was even able to sustain organ notes of different lengths, rather than single impulses.
This is such a cool idea, as a computer scientist, I really like the idea of going towards digital solutions…. Electronic music doesn’t have the natural feel this project demands, but anywhere in the machine where there is a program is an opportunity for a more reliable quieter, and electrified variant….. as long as you can see a pin, people shouldn’t care that the mechanism that raises and lowers the pins is electric and programmable. The ability to play virtually anything with the machine would be so cool!
For your usage a spiral track probably isnt the best, it limits you to a certain track length (because of the sudden reset to the beginning) and you'll be repeating a whole load of notes. However using a figure 8 track, moving the drum to the side and then back once per rotation, would double your sequence length.
You could even quadruple it if you were okay with an ABAC style form (as it moves back and forth), which a lot of music falls into.
Or, just use scroll
I think the scroll opens up interesting opportunities the issue he has mentioned before was it doesn’t have the strength to release marbles. I think a scroll could be used to turn tracks on and off though. So the wheel never changes just a note for every note. but the readers have an on off position.
Hell, hook it up to a midi player and he can eliminate the programming wheel entirely!
@@grahamthomas9319 That's probably solvable, but likely would require pneumatics, which is a whole 'nother mess...
The big issue with the screw thing is you cant really loop the music (unless you overcomplicate it)
Babe wake up it’s Wintergatan time
I think perhaps the most important thing that Martin is juuuust starting to learn is the ever-critical KISS principal - Keep It Simple Stupid! Seriously, each extra bit of complexity is just another thing that can fail and will be a huge pain, simplify everything as much as feasible.
Haha, finally! I've been thinking about how to make the programming wheel be able to play longer music, and having it be spiraling was one of the ideas I thought about. I had no idea it's actually been done before, but it's such an obvious solution it'd be more surprising if there were no historical examples of it. Rediscovering history is pretty cool! I wonder if perhaps having smaller programming wheels might be desirable. The wheel in the Swedish table is to tiny that you could dedicate an entire wheel per instrument really
It's so rare to find those that make machines beautiful to put something beautiful back int he world. Seeing you meld art and engineering always makes me so so happy. This is a great video!
Very cool video! I think it's awesome that all of your latest design choices have already been proven through historical precedence. Excited for continued progress, you're a modern day Mechanical Music Mastermind!
Lol.
It is good to see you happy, hopeful, and enthusiastic about these machines, Martin! I really love the direction your moving in for the next marble machine.
It's so cool to see you using solutions already tried and tested for other mechanical instruments! It's as if you're taking part on their history, making a tribute to them and their awesomeness, at the same time that you're building your own original instrument. It's like the Marble Machine is finally embracing it's history ❤
If you do decide to do something with a spiral programming wheel be careful. In the example shown when resetting, if there were programming pins there it could've easily broken the mechanism, or the pins/wheel itself
Martin, your work methods have been an inspiration for me for long time, glad to see you're back!
To think that it only took martin 8 years to look at the things he was trying to copy. Truly an inspiration.
@@JonaasK it's like circus, if is entertaining:) Furthermore, I used to like the comments. Now they are full of praise and little good advice, but some are still informative.
7:08 they could make a song that transposes up a half step at the end, and just keep playing that one wheel all the way until it runs out of notes to play
great to be able to take so many good ideas from old musical instruments. I'm glad to see your enthusiasm back too.
good luck !
A little heretical question: does it really have to be a programming wheel? Wouldn't cardboard strips also be conceivable, as with the first weaving looms?
I've seen mechanical instruments that use punch cards too!
Very cool! I'm excited to see what you come up with utilizing the ideas you learned from these other instruments.
Yeah! I love your work. The centrifugal governors marked the phrase "balls up!" which meant that the machine was overspinning.
I can already see two big problems with the spiralling wheel:
1) A spiraling wheel needs to reset to original position after it plays all the way out, unlike a linear spinning wheel which resets seamlessly. The reset will take some time, making for a gap in the music.
2) The slamming of a resetting wheel imparts some considerable force on the machine, and makes some considerable noise.
It's a pleasure to know that the original marble machine safely rests here. What an honor as well. I learned about that fact a while ago. I like the way you pronounce German places. It sounds sooo cute. ^^
cant wait to see that machine tuned! so glad you are doing well
Instead of spirling the drum, why not move the pick ups (as they are on cables, it shouldn't be too hard). This way most track loop normally (drum for beat) , but a few can cam across more tracks for longer loops
what happened to the channel icon
The funniest part is that these concepts where used and recycled the whole time we've had analog music systems. It's only when we moved over to the CD that it stopped.
I went to that same mechanical instruments museum in Germany earlier this year and I really enjoyed it. They have some very cool stuff there and would recommend.
this video made me appreciate more than ever how he is reviving a lost art - putting in the research, and trying to learn from real masters of their craft to keep celebrating the beauty of it
This is awesome! Thanks for this exciting and fun update! 😃
Martin you made it through a whole video without using the word “tight” haha 😂
loved this episode! Thanks for sharing
I think you’ve unveiled a new paradigm for the marble machine.
You’ve discovered that you are trying to play music with marbles, not design and engineer solution to problems which have already been solved.
Using existing solutions to solve problems has numerous benefits over the alternative.
I've been following this project ever since the original video went viral and he was working out of a storage container on that island.
In a world like this, we need videos like this, we need people like this, we need museums like this, and we need objects like this. These all are a little island of peace. I sincerely thank you from the bottom of my heart and wish you all the best❣️
Merry Xmas, Martin, and thanks for all the fun videos.
Where is the logo of the channel?
You know its a good revelation when Martin uploads on a Friday!
I'm here 7 years later. Its pretty great that you are still working on the marble machine lol
Growing up, our next door neighbor collected and repaired old music boxes and clocks in his spare time. I wish I'd spent time with him seeing more of what he did. The one thing that impressed me most as a kid was a player piano. He had rigged it up with a vacuum cleaner in the basement so it couldn't be heard when the piano played. He also had a "hickory-dickety-dock" clock. A mouse would move up the clock for 12 hours and then drop to the bottom to start climbing again.
I visited the museum this summer. It was mind blowing. In addition to the instruments, the building itself is also impressive.
Very neat. I really enjoy your content and your quest for knowledge.
Holy hell! My mind was just blown! Slightly shifting the music drum to 1 side as it spins to get much more music out of it! Damn! This is incredible!
Look how cylindrical marbles jump back to their original position without any dividers or gates
Love this! Would also be great to see a video of that song once yours is tuned up.
Can't wait to see how you apply these principles on your third machine!!
And also I'd love to hear that instrument you bought in tune lol
Greetings from a long time fan!! Not an actual engineer but somebody who likes to marvel at amazing things, such as your inventive creations Martin!!!
This is analog computing, I love it, and I also hope more people do this in the future. We will need more understandings of mechanics like this in the future.
It's really nice to see you looking for pre-exsisting solutions instead of trying to reinvent the wheel!
The first thing that popped into my head is that you could rig a wheel so the same pins activate different notes on later passes. You could even arrange the notes out of order to create harmonies between the rotations.
"On neidolla punapaula"?! I thought that was a Finnish folk song. Now, after googling, I find out it's originally from Sweden; "Och jungfrun hon går i dansen". You never know what you learn when you see a Swedish musician make videos about mechanical music machines in Germany :D
Oh oh oh, if you go for a spiral programming wheel design, you could split it up into modules and have an input and output buffer for modules!
You don't need a spiraling programming wheel. Since you're designing you can make it as big and as detailed as you want you'll get way more runtime that way and with much more precision and way fewer points of failure
Yes improving the amount of storage in the programming wheel is great
I think looking into better ie smaller designs for the programming inserts is probably the best way to do this because the inserts are currently so large
I wonder if the older programming wheel that used pins meets your design requirements as it used a different reader
Hats off to the mechanical genius' that made these historical instruments ,
and I can understand why this topic became an obsession for you 😉
The fly ball governor with its braking disk is a fascinating design ,
it makes me wonder how this design might be implemented in nature at the microscopic level.
Awesome video. Really fascinating machinery.
It's a very nice music box sound. I'm looking forward to the next video.
Well this is something you don't find everyday
I wonder who even made it in the first place.
They were invented by Johannes Magnusson and built in a factory in Söder Nässja. There's a Swedish Wikipedia page about them titled Psalmpositiv.
Something to also keep in mind here is the speed of programming wheel. Here you can see how slow they can go. The slower the wheel goes the more music fits on the same diameter role.
Moreover i also want to ask the question if a wheel is the right option, because you for example also have programming books which are feat through the machine. This allowes for any length you want and does not require reprogramming. You can even make the book connect back to itself such that you can loop the song.
That's sooo cool!! That's one question i had for quite some time actually myself. So it IS possible to play a longer song with still a quite small roll! I love this so much! 🤩💕✨
For most of us, just building that prototype would be the greatest thing we've ever done with our hands
I love older technology :D This is a great find!
Martin: plastic/glass shield to avoid dirt/small things to fall into the machine (governor) so it won't be an obstacle for playing tight music. Especially important when moving it around; also having a specialized cleaning kit for this assignment.
7:22 That spring back to the start sounded so violent.
Fantastic hostoric job to found the perfect mecanical way. So respectfull👍
6:30 is insane, HOW did somebody fit all those pins like that and have the music play flawlessly without hittind the wrong pins? Some insane calculations went in to that design.
Another example for very long music on a very small wheel: player pianos. They use a scroll with holes punched in it that winds from one spool to another instead of a barrel with pegs.
Here's a thought on multiple tracks on one cylinder. One problem with a spiral track, or multiple single tracks set in a single direction, is that at some point, you reach one end of the drum--- and if you want to loop the track from the beginning, the drum must first shift all the way back to the other end.
While the following would complicate programming quite a bit, what about having the sequence on alternating tracks in alternating directions. That is to say:
From left to right, after track 1, it shifts to track 3, then 5, then 7, then 9...
...then moves right to left, playing track 8, then 6, then 4, then 2, and back to 1.
A double shift except at each end. Maybe a cam to control this stepping, and at each end, a lever which triggers the reversing of travel, and maybe just that reversing process itself advances the feelers one step in the other direction, and then the cam mentioned above resumes its two-position-per-shift function.
He will soon realise to build a full working prototype from off the shelve parts, then he can design bespoke parts to be more compact, stylish and fit for the purpose. Like a real engineer
I get the appeal of having a whole song on one programming by using the spiral. But I can’t help but to feel like part of the charm of YOUR machines is the “play-ability” aspect. I much prefer the idea of the cam system which keeps the linear loops, but where you could manually shift the programming wheel with a lever and cam system to change which music loop is playing. It feels to me like that kind of human interaction with the machine is part of the soul or your mechanical instruments.
I like the fact that you're taking inspiration on existing designs, but I doubt the spiral programing wheel would be adapted to the MM3.
In the MMX, you had levers to change the instruments, so it was never a "1 revolution" song, you could play forever. But with the spiral, when you hit the end, it's the end...
You could find a way to return to the begining, but that would mean more parts and a more complex design
what happened to the channel pic
Although it's easy to see how useful a programming wheel set on a spiraling track would be, it sounds so complicated to reliably implement
@@D.M_Me_at_Official_Wintergatan man how lucky, do I win a brand new phone?
At this point I’m expecting the marble machine to play Crysis
spiral programming tracks seem like an equivalent to long play mode on VHS, you're getting a longer run time with the same sized wheel at the tradeoff of fewer individual instrument tracks. for a music box that's totally fine but it might not actually make sense for a marble machine with at least 4 instruments playing at once.
I wish I lived next door. I love this type of giddy insanity. When you are old and lazy you’ll be able to smile at your accomplishments.
The governor reminds me of a snowmobile clutch and secondary clutch to catch when rpm hits a certain spot
The spiraling concept reminds me of two different music formats, the 8-track tape, and the tefifon. On the eight track, there's four stereo programs, the tape head moves down a row every time. The continuous loop tape finishes a revolution, and it knows because there's a little tab of metal on the tape that could be detected buy a simple set of contacts. The tefifon was an obscure music format from Germany that I learned about from the techmoan channel, it used a continuous spiral of plastic tape that had a record groove carved in it. In that case, it was a continuous groove that spiraled around the endless loop tape, when it got to the end, there was a lock groove.
You may wish to look at a weight driven grandfather clock as well.
My grand parents had one when I was a child and I remember watching my grand dad pull on the chain to bring the weight to the top of the cabinet.
If I remember correctly, it had something like a 28 day run time.
fantastic stuff!
It’s neat how that drum organ resets, as those pins are very large by nature. In order to prevent them from being instantly destroyed (or destroying the valve trigger levers), the _whole valve trigger assembly_ lifts up off of the drum before it springs back. Freaking GENIUS! Not to mention…A CONTINUOUSLY SHIFTING DRUM WITH SPIRAL PROGRAMMING!?!? What is this sorcery!?
To think that someone built these machines prior to CAD and (modern) automated manufacturing techniques is insane.
Dozens, maybe hundreds of prototypes til they got it right.
Imagine building a shifting drum, but at the end of the song the music makes a keychange one semitone upwards. Now you can have really long music on repeat but also get some new momentum everytime
This was a good idea! As an engineer was said, "The best designs have the least amount of new ideas."
0:49 pretty nice music!👏👏👏👏
you can create a robot that uses this method to run computational patterns. if it can play sound in a given arrangement it can also execute robotic instructions. vintage robotics combined with music would even more cool.
I don't think the spiral is a good idea for the MM3 and here's why:
Basically, you can play music in either groovebox mode or in song mode.
The spiral uses song mode: it plays from start to finish of one long song and then resets, takes some time, and starts again.
The MMX uses groovebox mode: it plays a drumloop with patterns and allows for different channels to be "launched" by unmuting them.
Song mode is great for a passive machine that just plays one long song, but groovebox mode is much better for a live instrument, because it allows for interaction and expressiveness.
Please, Martin, revisit the idea of having the ability to select tracks and switch them on and off. This will make the instrument a true live instrument and not just a music box with a song.
4:03 This is where the term that someone was going "Balls Out" or Balls to the Wall comes from. In simple terms, full governed speed.