You Should Read The City & The City
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- čas přidán 8. 01. 2023
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China Miéville is such a unique sci-fi author. I haven’t read The City & The City yet, but I have read Embassytown and Perdido Street Station. Both are opinionated, deeply thought-provoking and phenomenally weird. Very much in the vein of Ursula K. LeGuin but with a darker and more fantastical tone.
Perdido st station was so good, and so weird. The ending was one of the most tragic things I've read. No happy endings, just more bleak....pressing on.
It's been a little over a decade since I read this novel and to this day I view it as one of, if not the, most important pieces of recent literature. That "unseeing" thing may seem like a wacky sci-fi concept, or perhaps a societal metaphor, but it's more than either of those things. It's real. People are walking around in different worlds and only really seeing the people and things in their world every day. You can learn to use it - to be more or less seen by simple things like changing your gait. Seriously, go try it out.
This book (and many other books by Mieville) inspired Disco Elysium, one of the best games of the last decade. Easy recommendation for book lovers who want to see what narratives games can offer
(also I know I posted this comment already, but it got removed because I was a silly dumb dumb and posted a link to the original dev post I cited. CZcams hates links)
I knew there had to be a reason why I liked this book concept! I loved DE as well and recently played it, so I should probably read this when I get thru some more of my book backlog
I want to play Disco Elysium but I'll admit that I find it's fans off-putting
it seems to be a coincidence? the author denies that it's an inspiration
PS: That’s interesting...have you read the City and the City? Was that an inspiration?
Kurvitz: I have, I get that... It’s not an inspiration, no. Well, I’m a shockingly left-wing person, and so is China Mieville, so we have that in common, and we have a similar take on science fiction, too. But I started developing this world and these concepts when I was 15, and I published a novel set in it in 2013. Yeah, China Mieville got there with some slipstream ideas first, but I had no idea he existed!
(you can find the source by just googling the stuff above)
If anyone needs even more encouragement to read this book, it's one of the primary influences for the game Disco Elysium!
Recently I found out about your channel from the video about Ergodic Literature and I was instantly hooked even though I'm not a humanities guy or even much of a reader. It blew my mind the way you pick apart sentences and you make them much more reader friendly just by ordering elements differently. What type of black magic is that?
I'm gonna give this book a try, i won't promise finish it, but i manage to read the whole thing i'll edit this commentary
I READ IT... It took more time that I was expecting but I read it. It's also a very easy read, since the mystery always builds a little bit from chapter to chapter. I loved the setting, loved how economically and culturally distinct the cities are, even though they are on top of each other. However, I don't think a city were you're prohibited to interact with anything foreign, but they can easily pass in front of you, would last very long. I also though the book would be more frustrating, like 'we almost killer but then we went to the other city. guess there's nothing we can do' but that never happens. Recommend
Hello! I also just finished reading and I wanna comment on this:
"I don't think a city were you're prohibited to interact with anything foreign, but they can easily pass in front of you, would last very long."
I thought like, you know when you're walking looking at your cellphone and you "sense" that there's a lamp post ahead of you and you simply move to the side? Or, for lack of a better example, you see a homeless person sleeping near a building, but you just turn your eyes be it because you do not like, or any other reason? I saw that as simply unsee, it's not that you cannot see, but you cannot have the memory of them. The less time you spend seeing something, the less time you'll memorize it! At least that was my interpretation of how it would work.
And I agree, the book isn't frustating, the biggest frustation to me was how the author kept saying big names of places all in succession, however the name of characters was easier, because he kept doing the "repeat" method (aka, instead of using synonyms when referencing said character, he used the same name and all)
Anyway, just wanted to comment my idea on how the unseeing worked :)
Also sorry for any bad english grammar error, not first language~
I listened to the audiobook of the novel narrated by John Lee, which was fantastic; well-suited to spoken-word because of the first-person noir-style narration.
I loved the setting for similar reasons you did - it's fantasy, and yet nothing like a capital-F Fantasy setting.
I also found it very easy to keep reading/listening to because it's a well-written murder mystery and those are by nature very propulsive and compelling.
I thoroughly enjoyed the book up until around the time Borlu encouters Breach. Past that point, I feel like there are a lot of occurences of characters existing "in both places at once, or maybe neither" and I found it very hard to imagine this for myself. We aren't told in detail what the markers of difference are between the cities, and so I basically ended up imagining the final pursuit being two guys pretending to stumble around drunk, which clearly wasn't the intended mood.
I remember enjoying everything before that point, with the standout moment being the shooting over the border between the cities. Though as a murder mystery, plenty of it blurs together in my memory as clue-gathering.
I feel like it treats its (alive) female characters well? Even when casting them in the typical roles. The woman Borlu is sleeping with seems to be fully aware and content that she's sleeping with an aloof workaholic noir detective clichè. I'm willing to be argued with here because I don't remember this detail super well.
Mièville is my favourite author bar none , so I'm thrilled to see you showing him off!
I read The City & The City many years ago, so my memory may be a little fuzzy, but I distinctly remember thinking that the two cities were actually full, complete cities that had been somehow *layered over one another* and the so-called borders were places where both extra-spatial cities intersected with the rest of the world. looking back, I think I was being fooled by the perspective writing and my own experience with Mièville's more fantastical works.
Same here. I totally got the impression that the cities were somehow partially in separate, pocket dimensions, and there were parts where they were physically bordering and where they interacted, other parts where they existed in the same physical space but phased through each other, and other parts still where the separation was thin enough to poke through.
The book also mentions foreign scientists that had been investigating the "phenomenon," which I took to mean it really was a physical phenomenon and not a social one.
And the whole plot of the book revolves around the existence of a third city "between/over/under" the other two.
And BOY did I get all of that wrong.
Must admit I lost interest in the book when I realised there wasn't anything weird going on it was just a social division.
@@punkykenickie2408unsuprising that you picked up on the social division theme since China Mieville is a marxist. It means he got his point across, its just not your cup of tea. His other works are more sci fi or fantastical, the city and the city is the one most grounded to reality.
@@KikomochiMendoza yeah :)
I actually enjoyed the book MORE when I found out it's just social division and not some weird scifi thing 😂
I really love the premise of this book, but the Book Club idea is SUCH a good idea, and I'm absolutely excited for it. Getting audience involvement is a plus, helps motivate others to read (if not also more frequently), and helps you get some different takes or perspectives on a novel that you may not have originally considered. Look forward to what you recommend!
Thank you, you’re probably the main reason I’ve started reading again after high school. Actually amazing videos.
Strangely after devouring and loving the Bas-Lag series at way too young an age during the mid aughts, I kinda paused China Mieville until last year, when I read Embassytown, Railsea, Kraken, and the Last Days of New Paris and finally, as the last book of 2022. It's interesting because while The City & The City is not my favorite Mieville, it is in my opinion his most restrained and focused. Unlike, say, Embassytown which is about language and meaning, referents and colonialism and all sorts of high concept things, I think the metaphor of The City & The City is fairly obvious. It's about class distinctions and how frequently people, especially the privileged, willfully ignore people, especially the poor, such that despite living in the same space it can feel like two different cities. As a self-described communist and NOT a fan of the police I think then that by having a cop join Breach at the end and fully commit to keeping the two cities apart, Mieville is being pretty clear about how he feels about cops and their roles in enforcing class division.
This book sounds extremely interesting. In the past few years I’ve been getting increasingly fascinated by city planning. It has become apparent that humans are shaped by their environment and that environments are in turn shaped by their inhabitants. Stories that explore the implications of city design have a ton of potential, which makes me really want to read this book.
Picked up house of leaves and the unfortunates based on your recommendation and I've been thoroughly enjoying both! Will check this one out as well and see if I like it. Thanks!
I picked up this book based on this video recommendation and just finished reading. Your video was spot on! Thanks for the great rec!
Some add’l things I liked about the book:
- the gritty realism, which surprisingly works despite the (debatably) “unrealistic” setting
- the narrator’s writing style and vocabulary. At first, Mieville’s unique style is a little difficult to get used to, but at some point I grew accustomed to it. I feel like it mirrors how a foreigner would feel when they first visit one of the cities. (First confused, but then gradually accepts the reality of these cities)
- The central murder mystery plot does not suffer from the high concept trappings of the setting. It’s a genuinely entertaining police procedural!
I'm down for companion-series!! 👍🏻
I'm looking forward to this new series! Sounds like a great way to introduce people to some interesting books.
haven’t even watched it yet but WOOO NEW UPLOAD
great work CCC!
Hooked me in on the concept alone. Will definitely give this a look!
I love this idea, I've read most of your recommendations and loved them all!
Very exciting! I love that you're back, and with more projects too!
Ooooo, I'm actually kinda excited for this series. Can't wait to see more content from you!
That is an awesome idea. Can't wait to start reading this book
This idea is really rad, I'm absolutely picking this up and gonna try and finish it before April!
Really excited to see where this series goes! Found your videos recently and they've been a huge motivation to read and write more ❤️
this book sounds really intriguing. Also I really like this format and am excited for the book club videos
You're fantastic at describing plots, very concise video :)
Im really excited for your book club series! I hope I get involved and follow along with each reading because this concept on youtube sounds really awesome and also refreshingly original (atleast to me)
This all sounds like a really cool idea, I wish you all of the success.
I have been doing a marathon of your videos since i saw the ergodic literature video yesterday, and i'm in love with your channel and your thoughts on everything!
I've added this book to my amazon wishlist and hope to either recieve it as a gift or buy it once i have some spare money lying around
Always excited to hear your thoughts, so shorter more frequent videos sounds really cool! The book club series is a great idea too.
I love the idea of book club, it sounds really good :D
Can't wait to read the rest :)
Finished the book yesterday. It's not my usual thing. I find books that start with a dead girl a urgh! But I still had fun reading this one. Im still turning over my more detail thoughts. There's some stuff in the book I'm not sure how to interpret.
Briefly, I liked how efficient the book is. It doesn't waste my time with anything superfluous at all. But that does leave the characters feeling a little flat. Having the cities appear on screen would probably need to be stylized heavily to make it not look ridiculous but in book form the other city always vanished in my mind no matter where the action was.
Replying to myself to finish my thoughts. One thing I noticed and liked was that protagonist never dehumanised the victim in his words or thoughts. He used her name and spoke about her as if she was still worthy of person hood. I had thought about reading this book before because I like china mavel but put it back down because I don't like the way women are often treated in murder mystery. The book starting with a dead girl was a turn off for me. The author went out of his way to make the opening scene dead girl remain a person however which did a lot to recover the story for me.
I took a long time for me to ferment my thoughts on the rest of the book. I don't have much to say because I'm struggling to find what the story wanted to say. The book refutes the comparison to real life split cities like Berlin. So it's not about that. It end up endorsing the secret police by having the main guy join them. So it's not about strict surveillance. I honestly don't know what the meaning of the two cities being split is. The ending where the secret police guy just states "the cities only work because people believe" is kind bad. Like, the book was finishing up and it forgot to have a point and they needed something. "Ahh ah, uh. The world is what you make of it!" Yeah that'll do. Pretty disappointing.
Hey CCC, I just wanted to say I'm glad to see you uploading more frequently again. As someone who's trying to expand their horizons with reading I'm excited for the book club series.
I've been meaning to read it for a while so thanks for the reminder.
Gonna check if there's any spoilers and if so watch this later.
Btw love that you're once agian posting more often your stuff's great and I'm endlessly thankful that you introduced me to Robbie Arnott's work.
Its good to see you back! Hope things are going well for you.
I’m so happy that you’ve returned and I’m excited to participate in this book club. Time to visit my local lubrary!
this made me hit the bell. such a good community idea!!!!!! Definitely looking forward to next months YSR!
Just picked up this book from my local library. Will watch the rest of the video when complete.
Fantastic! Another great suggestion to add to my ever-growing wishlist. I've found myself fascinated with non-fiction as of late- but I look forward to populating my library with a handful of fiction here over the next 8 months or so ;)
Looking forward to both series'
This sounds like a very fascinating book and the idea of book club has me very interested, I’ll get the book asap!
I binge-watch your videos dude. I have been buying books based on some of your recommendations (These include Giovanni's room, The Last Unicorn, and House of Leaves) and they never disappoint. Keep doing what you are doing - I'm excited for book club!
Just found your channel a few days ago when i got house of leaves and im glad i did, i always found reading boring but your channel is such a good source of great books to read, just bought bats of the republic
Not 3 mins in, heard "murder mystery," instantly put this on my To-Read list. Thank you for yet another recommendation!
Not sure if I'll be able to finish my current book, purchase this one, and read it in time for April but I look forward to following along with the book club later on in the year
The "you should read" + book club idea is amazing. You just encouraged me to renew my library card and sit down and actually read a book for the first time in years. Then jumping straight into the deep end, House of Leaves is next. Very grateful, keep it up ❤
This is a great idea for a series. I will definitely check this book out though I doubt I will make it to the deadline (I am chewing through 3 book series at the moment)
This... This is so clever and I am so excited for how this will go. Your recommendations have always been at the least interesting, and the more regular content will 🤞🏻 hopefully, be beheld by this algorithm as worthy of growth that's well-deserved.
I hope this format works out well for you.
Im really excited for the regular uploads and the recommendations.
(SPOILERS)
I've finally finished the book.
I loved it, even though it didn't scratch every itch I had coming in to it.
As the story progressed I was intrigued by the idea that the case Borlu and co. were working on will unravel the conspiracy keeping the cities separate or, in some way, reveal the truth about the actual relationship between Ul Qoma, Beszel, Breach and Orciny.
Reading further and stumbling across more bits of world-building and fictional history, I became unconvinced that such an ending would in any way be satisfying or realistic. So I was actually really glad when that wasn't the case in the end.
The novel didn't give me all the answers for the questions it raised during the story, but the ending felt more in line with the reality of the situations in the cities so even though it was bittersweet it was satisfying to me.
I would have some complaints about the characters not being fleshed-out enough, but I recognise that this is a much more plot-driven work than what I usually read so I'm not sure on that front.
Yay, more content. Probably won’t read it because college is the worst but hey like to hear you talk about stuff.
I stumbled upon this workd awhile ago and it still manages to make me feel off balance in the best way.
Hell yeah! I love this book
This book has a really cool concept! Not usually a fan of murder mysteries, but now I want to read this!
Ooooh, this sounds right up my alley... Urban fiction is second only to rural fiction when it comes to stories I enjoy; characterizing and giving depth to a setting is one of my favorite tropes in media. The very concept of two cities being woven into each other is already rather alluring, but the politics and culture surrounding the cities makes my brain spark with interest. And it's a murder mystery, too? I'm going to have to buy this book whenever my next paycheck comes in.
I’ve read some of Miéville’s other books (Embassytown, Railsea, and some of Perdido Street Station) and have enjoyed them, so I’ll definitely try and check this one out
I just finished the book and enjoyed it very much.
I enjoy that it takes a simple 'one sentence' idea and expands upon it, keeping a clear reason to explore the narrative. Plus, there's certainly commentary on borders, government transparency and culture.
I also found the book easy enough to read, for I as a reader easily lose track of the sea of new names and terminology often seen in sci-fi/fantasy.
Lastly, the author had a surprise visit on a podcast episode I was listening to (On The Media - Who Profits?) And spoke about capitalism/socialism/Marxism, which was a pleasant surprise.
I know I'm watching whatever you post 😇
Been meaning to read this and check out the mini series BBC did.
Okay, two minutes of the video and I need to read this so bad, thanks
So sort of like the area in New York for the United Nations, take for example the fact the North Korea is not allowed in the U.S. _but_ they have to have offices near the U.N. General assembly Offices, so it in all bureaucratic technicalities, it is two cities (or even more if you think about it) in one, given you stay within a specifc area around the U.N. land area thing.
A Darker Shade of Magic by V.E. Schwab has the main character, Kell, travel to different Londons (Red, Grey and White).
I read the series in high school and loved it.
Besźel and Ul Qoma... Melbourne and Sydney...
Read this quite a few years ago. Not sure why it doesn't stick in my brain as much as Embassytown and Iron Council, the idea is excelllent. I remember enjoying it immensely and definitely would be up for a re-read.
The premise sounds reasonably weird and intriguing enough. Guess there's no other chance for me than to pick it up then!
I literally just finished the book when this came out. Wild coincidence.
I needed clarification on the archeology dig. What were all of the weird artifacts?
I think the main idea of the book is to point out the general absurdity of borders.
I adore China Meiville.
İ loved the premise of the book somsthing only china would think up
Love the vids ❤️
I just saw this video for 2:30 minutes, I stopped and went to buy it to read.
This is how much you were able to hook me with such little time heauhea
also yes I want "you should read", its amazing and gives me more knowledge of unknown books!
As a non reader, it’s weird that I love hearing about books, even though I’ve never actually read anything on my own, ever.
Always heard good things about Mieville. Gotta admire a guy who wants to write in every genre. Also, funny thing, I am 99% sure there is an SCP based on Mieville's novel Un Lun Dun which is also called Unlondon. Could be just a coincidence, but given they both involve alternate versions of London I suspect some clear inspiration.
Not a feedback comment about the book, but please absolutely do "You Should Read..." I need to read more books and this is my perfect excuse :D
as a Minnesotan hearing "the twin Cities" was so weird to hear in a different context than st paul and Minneapolis lol
i saw the tv show
I'm the Hyena and the Town.
On another note I really love the way you're bringing back this channel in a really neat way. I'll TRY to participate in some manner.
I didn't get the setting because it is never explained when, why or what the purpose of separating the cities is. Early on I thought it would be some sort of fantasy or sci fi explanation, but actually just a small group of people enforce some archaic law for no reason apparently
If I had a nickel for every time a bird thing talked at me about books I've never heard of, I'd have 2 nickels. Which isn't a lot, but its weird it happened twice.
Is it possible for you to do a “You should read” for Another Country by James Baldwin? I’d like to hear your thoughts on it and then potentially be apart of “Bookclub” for it cause I own a copy of it!
I’ll consider it! The next few books are more or less lined up, but perhaps later in the year if I think it could work
Hmm, I'm interested in reading this book and seeing how the setting functions as a metaphor for gender divergence. Two binary cities, somewhat arbitrarily divided. People are expected to stay in the city they are born in. Even showing passing interest in the other city is a crime. People have to self-police their thoughts in order to not acknowledge that they might care about the other city, etc.
forcing me to read books on my shelf that I haven't read?! fine.
Jeez, do you know how to sell a book or what? I'm gonna try and get it after I get through Orientalism.
Down a shot every time he says city.
this may sound stupid, but this could be a good idea for countries that have many border disputes, such as the current Israel versus Palestine war that has begun.
If they could share the same space but basically be trained to unsee each other, this could greatly reduce current hostilities, and allow for both Christians, Jews and Muslims to be part of the Holy Land and be able to coexist peacefully.
Or they could simply read their Holy books, which show the people of Islam and Bahai as being descended from Ishmael and Jews and Christians descended from Issac, who are BOTH sons of Abram/Abraham, and thus should treat each other as brothers and not like Cain and Abel or Essau and Jacob.
Just like how Genesis talks about the people of Asia as being descended from Shem, the Europeans from Japheth and the Africans from Ham, who were all sons of Noah, and thus should treat themselves as brothers.
Even going back to everyone descended from Adam and Eve, that all humanity are brothers and sisters, we should treat each other as such and not as separated, warring factions.
Rant over.
this could be used as a replacement for war, where there is simply additional shared zones between more than one culture, and thus shared, granted that the members of each culture are allowed therefore to intermingle with the lands of the other culture, and thus wars are no longer necessary but land sharing and resource sharing as a better alternative than constant wars and border disputes.
... thiis isn't an hour long, what the heck
somethings wrong...
@@levimurdoch3918 I can feel it, it's just, this feeling that I got
Commenting early so I can compare first impressions to final understanding:
This makes me think it's an incredibly unsubtle critique of gender
And also reminds me of one of the early Dying Earth stories by Jack Vance, about a city of ghosts
The fact that it's a murder mystery sold me on it, I'm gonna check it out today. Now I'm wondering if i should finish the video lmao
im not really a fan of books that mainly focus on their setting and not on their characters