Lost Sonic Games (Exclusive)
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- čas přidán 7. 07. 2023
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DidYouKnowGaming takes a look at 3 scrapped Sonic games, including a failed reworking of Popful Mail titled Sister Sonic, as well as a sequel to the Nintendo DS RPG Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood, and finally a lost Sonic platformer by Nitrome called Sonic Day.
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Special thanks to Miles Holmes, Ken Penders, and Mat Annal for talking to us.
Research/Writing by Dr Lava
Additional Writing by Ryboflavin
Video Editing by TheCartoonGamer
Narration by Remix
Sources/Further Reading:
Beep! Megadrive (Japanese magazine), November 1992 issue
Nostalgic Mega Drive: The Reviving Mega Driver!! (Japanese book, this English title appears on the cover)
Electronic Gaming Monthly (USA magazine), June 1993 issue
Electronic Gaming Monthly (USA magazine), August 1993 issue
Electronic Gaming Monthly (USA magazine), March 1995 issue
GamePro (USA magazine), April 1995 issue
web.archive.org/web/200812181...
web.archive.org/web/201507250...
www.retrogamer.net/top_10/top...
Nitrome/status/14...
#sonic #sonicthehedgehog #sega - Hry
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Comment
A lot
Why did you not decide to take a side/stance/bias on the ken/sega thing? At the very least you could of told people to not send hate his way. Show some fucking empathy. You have a responsibility with your subscriber base. Have a sense of duty.
You guys are mad men. Phenomenal work!
I just want to say I'm extremely grateful to hear the outline for the Chronicles sequel. Fans knew the game was never going to come out but it's nice to get some idea of how it would have gone.
Penders was probably one of the worst things to have happened to Sonic
Probably? He is. Being responsible for the ending of a well-received cartoon and butchering a long-running comic series was already bad enough but now we all know he caused the cancelation of a spin-off series. It's a never-ending fiasco with that guy.
This is saying a lot and it’s hard to not agree.
Sonichu is the #1 worst thing to happen to Sonic and his entire franchise's reputation as a result.
@@the-NightStarnobody really cares about Sonichu.
@the-NightStar hardly, sonichu and CWC is only recognised and despised by the handful minority that still remember, penders on the other hand has permanently left his mark on the sonic brand
The fact that the concept of Rouge existed way back in 1992 is pretty wild. “A mature bounty hunter with flirtatious charm” perfectly describes her core character traits.
Oh yeah, never really drew the parallels, but you got a point there.
So, like… Rouge is a relative of Sonic?
@@geoffreyrichards6079 Rouge THE BAT? home booooy....
They just used the concept elsewhere. I didn't even think of that.
But also what about famg the sniper, he is like a guy version of rouge if you think about it
As soon as Ken went down the NFT route, you can tell exactly what his motivations were: money.
Especially when he charged super steep prices for them and hopefully one day the SEGA lawyers get on his butt and shut down his NFTs.
Really, if money is the only thing Ol Kenny wants, he should've made the smart and right decision to sell the rights to all his characters so he would get less hate this time. But no, he has to be this one spoiled kid who won't share with his action figures. Seriously, he's a little brtch.
We've always known this loser was after the money
@@Wingedlight-nn4hl SEGA is big enough to let him play with his toys as if he owns them. Obviously if the Paramount movies (and the Knuckles show) pick up with some backstory stuff they'll be a lot more likely to rip him a new one in court
@@xenencross1717I doubt that Sega wants to spend any money on them
The situation with Sonic Chronicles truly is sad. I definitely could have seen it blossoming into a whole sub series, like what Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi did for Mario. But you know as the thread says,
Thanks Ken Penders
It is still possible to make chronicles, but you would have to pay him, and I don't think anyone would want to pay for characters that are basically not his (the ones from chronicles, the ones he created if they are his according to me.)
Penders is off his rocker. And is unreasonable.
@@Joyscp999yeah, and frankly some of the characters he claims are his, he didn't even fully make himself. Like Dr. Finitevus was more so made by artist Jonathan Grey. Ken just described him as a white echidna, nothing more, but John didn't want to copy the Dr. Zachary character (a white echidna that Ken was unaware already existed) from the British Fleetway Sonic the Comic, so he tried to make him look as different and with more unique details as possible.
Yet, Ken claims full copyright over that character, and others like Scourge the hedgehog whom he wasn't even involved in designing. (Scourge was designed by artist Patrick Spaziante)
So it's ironic of Ken to claim he's fighting against "evil million dollar corporations stealing characters in the name of content creators," yet is basically stealing them himself, and never regarding other artists or editors that helped him make them.
@@beauwalker9820
Plus he only really won the dispute due to the fire at Archie wiping out a lot of paperwork, including Penders' contract. So Archie had no proof that he had signed any rights over to them for characters he had created.
@@beauwalker9820 also a lot his ideas were just ripped straight from other media, like Superman, only executed worse. Hell the dude straight up took a WW2 writing about Nazis and edited it to be about echidnas. Dude's a hack.
Even after "okaying" the script, Penders is the still type of person to file a copyright claim.
he doesn't have the money to file copyright claims
@@terrysyvertson9205 doesn't seem to be stopping him from claiming copyright regardless.
Though, what's really odd is, years ago during the legal drama, Ken on his official site asked fans to place a "copyright Ken Penders" if they post images of panels from the Sonic comic online, even if they were issues he didn't write nor had any involvement in. So honestly he kinda claims more credit then he deserves.
Like the Dr. Finitevus was designed by artist Jonathan Grey, yet Ken claims full copyright of him, and doesn't regard John, nor other artists/editors who helped him create characters. (According to John, he was just told "to make a white echidna," so he deserves credit in the more unique design he went with, as John didn't want the character to resemble a white echidna from the British "Sonic the Comic" comics.)
The above video, Ken is even trying to claim Julie-Su and Shade are the same character, even if they aren't, and look different.
@@beauwalker9820 And he claims all he wanted was a couple cents in royalties.
If he had spent more time improving his art instead of being litigious, he might actually have been a respected member of the industry.
The fact that he okayed the script because he doesn't realise how bad it makes him look says a lot about his character. These links between the characters/places he claimed are extremely weak.
It's really hard for me to consider how Ken sees himself as anything but the antagonist in this. Like, you're using someone else's franchise to make a comic, and then because you made some OCs in an official publication, you see yourself as suddenly owning enough to kill other media in that franchise, not because they used the actual characters, but because you see those characters as too similar to your own. It really feels like someone who just wants to grab some money off of a large corporation, regardless of whether he's actually in the right to do so (imo, he's not). The NFTs and the insane price he's putting them at definitely makes me believe he's more about grifting than creating.
Naw bro, he thinks he's the hero. He just doesn't analyze his actions. It's like how terrorists think they are heroes.
It should be noted that before the Sonic movie we got, someone pitched an idea about a Sonic movie to Sega, liked it and wanted to see how it went, which lead to Penders calling up Sega to say that guy changed his mind and scrapped it and stole their movie idea and pitched it to Sega.
It never went past the first storyboard, of course
He's a dickhead but I won't lie, he's completely in the right in the instance of Sonic Chronicles. He owns the rights to the characters and there were some similarities between Chronicles and his work that went past being a "coincidence". While he doesn't own Chronicles, an argument could be made for plagiarism.
@@charliekelly735 He certainly has some merit when it comes to characters that he personally created, much like with Moore and Watchmen, but him insisting that he made Knuckles popular and that Sega and Paramount owes him for it is absolutely nuts. The Archie run, excellent as it often were under Flynn's penship, were never the primary source of Sonic exposure that Penders makes it out to be.
@@CrimsonMoonM True
Ken Penders will wipe this video off the map the second he sees sonic chronicles
Ponders
I'd love to see him try.
LMFAO
Ponders into the Ponderverse
Penders: He can really sue!
Penders: He just might sue me too!
The fact we got NFT's instead of Sonic Chronicles 2 and future games makes me mad....... We truly live in the worst timeline.....
instead*
@@p5rsona Man the skeleton appeared
I mean, NFT's dropped off a cliff, so his probably didn't sell very well. So, its still a decent timeline all things considering.
The game kinda sucked tbh, i hated it when i was 12.
Producers of Sonic Chronicles and Sonic Day sound quite chill guys, unlike Ken Penders
Indeed
Great job, Ken Penders. Thank you for depriving us of what could've been a fun conclusion to a great game. 🙄
While he is also to blame, another big factor is that EA bought Bioware at that time
@@no.402
Jeez. I legitimately enjoyed Sonic Chronicles too. It was actually the only game in which I liked using Big the Cat. He was a really useful tanky character. 😂
they didn't even finish the first game, i don't see how they would have been able to create a second one.
@@no.402 lol, imagine Sonic with microtransactions
@@no.402EA:
Ruining games since 1982.
It's funny, the vibe I got from _Sonic Chronicles_ was that Argus was a good dude for locking away these super dangerous civilizations, because most of them seemed like they were threatening and expansionist.
That was the vibe I got too, that's why it's such a suprise that he was doing it to flee his own end.
Hold up Argus
Isn’t that the name of the Zelda boss with the tentacles too
@@Doodle1678To be fair, the name Argus originates from Greek mythology, belonging to a multi-eyed giant monster which Hermes killed to give peacocks their distinctive feathers.
Funnily enough, this isn’t the first time the Sonic franchise had a character named Argus. Another character was given the same name in “Sonic Underground”.
Very Lawful Neutral
@@Doodle1678You must be referring to Arrghus, from A Link Between Worlds.
Sonic Chronicles had really nice background art, a decent battle system and good writing, so it's a huge shame we never got a sequel that could have ironed out the games short comings.
If the battle system had a better way of dealing with hit/miss percentages and more varied input methods for the action commands it’d be a lot better, speaking as someone who grew up with the game
And maybe a composer who knew what he was doing lmao
@@ORLY911 in the composer’s defense, they had music that they were going to use that they had to scrap late into production because of EA’s buyout and the fact they didn’t want to cover costs, and what was left in the final game is almost entirely placeholder effects and placeholder midi files
Fun fact: Chronicles' artstyle was inspired directly by Sonic X
In all honesty, the Sonic Chronicles 2 storyline sounds epic. I feel like its concept of an Eggman-conquered world and the war to take it back is kind of better than the Forces approach.
Mmm good point 🤷♀️
Learning about Sonic day made me so interested and sad at the same time.
I’d love to see something like it be made someday.
Sonic such a cursed IP...
@@LordTchernobogI know there’s lot’s of things we wished would happen with it, but I think it’s best to be grateful for what does come out for it.
@@benmalsky9834 Sega NEEDS to give nitrome a chance someday. Nitrome always makes banger games.
It's sad that all Nitrome wanted to do was share some cool stuff that almost got made and the fandom had the reaction it did... but at the same time I wonder if it was possible they could have released it in ANY way without drawing that kind of response. Even if Nitrome's intentions are good, Sonic fans are often very tightly wound and poor at handling conflicts, partially due to SEGA's own incredibly spotty treatment of the franchise inducing tremendous bitterness in them that just leads to... well, what was seen in the video.
Ken Penders absolutely ruined so many good things for Sonic. The Archie one was the longest running comic based on an IP. He also basically erased his legacy, made it so it won't be published ever again, made it so he won't be trusted in the industry again. Just wild to me. I loved his work as a kid, and the fact that he basically locked up all his work, and ruined other people's projects, it just boggles my mind.
Greed.
Popful Mail was one of my favorite games as a child and certainly my favorite on Sega CD. I wish that game would get re-released on modern consoles I imagine it still has a lot to offer
I'd like to play it too. Still curious how "Sister Sonic" would of been. The "sexy and flirtatious" personality probably wouldn't age well, or just make her another Rouge the bat. (And they've had to tone her down too.)
@@beauwalker9820 I don't get american culture how is a female using their positive traits to take advantage of dumb guys to get their way not age well but you guys are all pro sex work and shizz
Hey dude the other guy deleted their comment so can you give some context on what happened.
Also just letting you know that the reason why this hasn't happened is due to the licensing issues between Sega and the localization team which from what I heard was from a 3rd party, I forgot the name of the team though sadly, but then again if they didn't have access to the OG localized version, a good alternative would have been to just release the original JP release but add EN subs to it. Like translate all the text boxes in English and put EN subs on the original cutscenes, while keeping the Japanese dialouge or something like that. It would have been easier to just do that since they wouldn't need to hire VAs, to be fair this does also mean hiring new translators but I doubt Sega would have problems with that considering localization is present with most of their games which have released abroad so a simple adding subtitles wouldn't hurt . It's kinda unfortunate tbh.
Same here, I've never played that game, as I never owned a SEGA CD, I'd love to give it a try
@@beauwalker9820 It would aged well, and I miss the Rouge from before her nerfs. Companies listen to the Twitter puritans and Karens too much.
Kenders claiming ownership over Shade when he had nothing to do with any part of her creation is just so him. What a goblin.
Idk if he's claiming ownership as much as he's claiming that they plagiarized him
My heart just warmed seeing that art used for the background of Green Hill in Sonic Chronicles, the childhood memories are flowing back!
I cannot thank you enough for finally getting us the info of what would have happened inthe Chronicles sequels, that's something that had been bugging me and others for over a decade, but we now know thanks to your efforts. Again, I cannot thank you enough.
Seeing the plans for the Chronicles sequel here makes me even more depressed that it was cancelled, though the main reason why it was cancelled is because EA bought Bioware at the time, not the Penders lawsuit
@@no.402it seems like a combination of both from the sounds of it🤔
Fun Fact: There's one game that does acknowledge Sonic Chronicles. There's a dream Stage in Mario and Sonic at the Vancouver 2010 Olympics based off of the Twight Cage.
i dont understand how you can constantly upload such in-depth and high quality videos at the rate you guys do. You're an inspiration my dude
Thanks dude :)
Wow, never would've imagined someone like Ken would be so greedy, I couldn't imagine working on a series I loved like that and then holding it against the company.
he never loved sonic to begin with. he had ZERO relation to sonic when he first started writing for archie, and hes made it very clear up to this day that he has no interest in the games too. the only things to do with sonic he cared about are the 100s of copy paste characters hes made for the archie comics and the storylines he wrote, which is why hes so comfortable doing this to the series
On principle, it's a good thing an artist didn't have their work unfairly taken away from them by a big company. I just wish it had happened with anyone but him
@@sawkchalk6966 call me crazy but if a company specifically contracts you to make work for them, work which you wouldve never done if not prompted by them, then whether its licensed characters or not the company should be able to keep it 100%, morally speaking
@@CommanderBravo2 Yeah, the only reason why he was chosen as a writer for Archie Sonic was because they needed someone and Ken's son liked Sonic. Or at least that's what I've heard, anyway.
@@robertlupa8273Ken’s son must hate him now, and he probably can’t understand why.
Despite Penders's claim, Shade and Julie-Su have very little in common. But Sega agreed not to use her anyway as part of the court settlement. As for why Sega and Archie Comics lost, they didn't have a written copy of his contract. They never made him sign one, apparently. Without a contract, the work-for-hire ownership clause evaporates.
Perhaps that is why Nintendo rejected Archie's pitch for a Super Mario comic series. They somehow knew Archie Comics would be that careless.
Had it happened, Ken Penders would have gotten the rights to Yoshi and repurpose the Yoshi Clan for The Lara-Su Chronicles, either as Allies or Enemies. Given that everyone has Trust issues in LSC, the Yoshi Clan would have betrayed or be betrayed if they were allies.
They did make him sign a contract, Archie had one and lost the original in an office fire. They had a copy of it which Ken claimed he never signed
Archie and Sega didn't lose because they didn't have his contract, they lost because Sega couldn't be bothered to step in and defend works they didn't particularly care for
Archie Comics legal department was a bunch of clowns, but Sega is responsible too. They had very little control or input over the comics, they did not care at all.
The 90's was a different time, nobody thought of products existing in an international environment.
@@X2011raceractually by then Ken was no longer working for Archie Sonic, and therefore Yoshi and company would be safe from him.
And the reason Nintendo of Japan rejected it, (NOA liked it though) was because they thought it was "too dark/serious." Writer Ian Flynn blames himself for that, feeling if he were to help pitch a Mario comic again, he'd make it more whimsical.
I heard they didn't lose, they settled out of court, so neither side won.
What very few people know is that the concept of Sister Sonic predates this remake/localization.
Yuzo Koshiro's company was developing a puzzle game based on Sonic by Ayane Koshiro (Character Designer) and MTJ for Mega CD using Sister Sonic who was going to be the main character of the game, it was going to be published by Sega Falcom but ended up being canceled for unknown reasons.
The thing is that there was a moment during the development in which it was considered to change the characters of Popful Mail (in which a port was already being discussed) by the characters of Sonic in a marketing push for both games to have more visibility in Japan as well as in North America. However, this version of Popful Mail never made it past the concept and rumors in mags, unlike this Sister Sonic which did reach a stage of development and even came out, was sold to a different company only with a facelift and on Super Famicom.
It is called Araiguma Rascal and is based on a kodomo anime instead of the Sonic series.
You can check this information on Masato Nishimura's twitter account, yes, the same guy who voiced Sonic and put that scary message in Sonic CD.
Sonic Bros. does exist
@@fixedfunshow Yes, MTJ worked on that game but it has no relation with this one, moreover it is not developed by Ancient and never had an official release.
As I said in my comment, you can check it there.
Informative.
I always wondered what Araiguma Rascal was about. It seemed a bit much to have original characters for a block stacking puzzle game. Thing about puzzle games, they're easy to reskin with different characters so it's easy to imagine a block stacking game with Mail or Sister Sonic or whatever.
Why is it like once a year I go "Eff K. Penders!" the more I learn about him?
Super grateful for this video for the new information on Sonic Chronicles and learning about Pop Mail, but I’m especially grateful for the spotlight on Nitrome. I’ve heard of some of their games but the gameplay of Sonic Day really makes me want to try some of their projects out! Wishing the best for them and take care over at DYKG!! Awesome to see the first sponsorship!
I loved sonic chronicles growing up and it always hurt that there was never any clue as to what was going to happen next this video gives me closure like yes it’s not an actual game but I feel happy knowing what it could have been
A bit sad Shade never got used in the official games, altough I do wonder how the Archie comics would have handled her inclusion considering Knuckles already has Julie-Su in them. Would they have just been close friends, making a trio team of fighters with the both of them?
i think she was acknowledged in the Sonic Encyclopedia, so there seems to be something that lets her be used still in some degree, else she would've been wiped from official sources completely.
@@ORLY911it’s also possible that she could come back in the main series since SEGA seems to be wanting to bridge a bunch of the Sonic sub series into the main one cuz at the end of Sonic Frontiers Amy mentions that when she gets home she’s gonna take a road trip with Cream and Sticks so now we know that Sticks is now officially part of the main series even after the Sonic Boom sub series failed so there is a chance that Shade could return one day like Sticks.
@@Wingedlight-nn4hl Ken Penders : I'm afraid you can't do that
I imagine Archie Shade would've been involved with the Dark Legion at some point, since Brotherhood's Twilight Cage and Nocturnus Clan were based on the Twilight Zone and Dark Legion from the comics. I'm don't see Shade joining the Chaotix after getting herself sorted out, though. Partly because the comic didn't really know what to do with that group, and partly because Ian likely would've put a brand new spin on any Brotherhood elements to make them fit in with Archie's lore and be more original.
They already had Rouge be the "other woman" against Julie-Su.
I see NFT several times in Ken's response. Discarded.
\_____/
Never heard of Ken Penders until this video, and now I wish I never had.
He's so much worse than even this video had time to get into. It's actually just the tip of the iceberg.
Someone once said Ken Penders is a succesful version of Chris-Chan and this video reinforces that notion.
We will never live down Ken Penders, will we?
The fanbase and franchise will outlive him tho, I wouldn't be surprised if Sega it's just patiently waiting so they can negotiate the problem away after he's passed.
@@axelprino best case scenario the bastard dies somehow soon and we can finally count down the days for either SEGA to buy the characters or they eventually go free from copyright
@@axelprino He does have a son. Hopefully he's more reasonable than his dad.
@@JustCallMeMatt517 Damn it, I really hope this doesn't end up the way I think it will.
Basically Sonic Chronicles 2 was gonna be Sonic Forces as an RPG since Eggman pulled a Biff Back to the Future Part 2 and that would’ve be super interesting.
It also sucks that Popful Mail didn’t get a Sonic version reskin because that game looks beautiful and fun.
There's also Sonic-16, supposedly. A game that never made it past the proof of concept phase, but would have been a slower paced game based on the SatAM continuity. There's a video of the concept, but it's pretty obviously not gameplay, just an animation to show how the game would have likely played.
The Ken Panders case seem acturally crazy to me. Like you guys said, if there was any force behind it he probably would have goten dunked on. The paralles he makes to argue his points are assinine in the lore he made up. Like, Shade is nothing like Julie-su. And literally anything talking about Knuckles Leniage is his in his eyes, like he owns the concept of geneology XP. The guy himself is as you put it "off his rocker" and its wild he apparently just let you guys say that, but he probably just loves any attention given because he is a shitlord. Cus anything said negitive about him he can twist into a complement. He ain't the worst, but he acts like it.
The only reason Ken won was cause SEGA didn't want to waste time getting involved and rather felt easier to just cut a, I'll be honest, mediocre rpg from continuing than giving the man more time.
Funny enough Ken tried to go against EA and his case was dismissed. The only place where he actually "won" was against
Archie comics, and only because of Archie's own incompetence in losing the original records of Ken's contract
To be fair, not defending Ken, but... Dark Legion, Dark Brotherhood? Twilight Zone, Twilight Cage? An ancient clan of black-clad technology-using echidnas that were locked away in another dimension for generations?
Some inspiration was absolutely taken from the comics. That much can't be denied. But still, Bioware had no reason to believe they couldn't use those concepts. Archie were the ones who screwed up, and Ken just capitalized on that, as he tends to do.
He’s basically one of those people who cry’s art theft for having a similar looking character but on a bigger scale.
The IP doesn't belong to him. If he wanted to create stuff, he's welcome to do it on his own. But I side an existing IP, he has to accept that it doesn't belong to him.
Sega just don't want to waste money on that dude, but one day he'll cross a line and endanger the Sonic brand, then Sega will definitely win.
@@Arkthus I mean, whether or not that's how it SHOULD be, the facts on paper is that Archie screwed up and Ken got the rights. It looks like Archie handled licensing pretty incompetently from the start.
SEGA could *probably* brute force it, but there's a chance they might fail, and that's definitely not a risk they'd wanna take for characters they don't care about anyway.
What could Ken possibly do that's brand-threatening? Any moreso than what he's already done, anyhow.
Sonic Day sure looks like it would have been a ton of fun! I don’t blame Sega at all for rejecting it, but hopefully they’ll bring it back one day or make something in the same spirit of it.
Yeah, it looks better then "Sonic Jump."
@@beauwalker9820 Yeah, it’s not very substantial, it’s just Doodle Jump but with Sonic. THIS one on the other hand looks a lot more substantial, like Super Mario Run.
@@benmalsky9834 tbf sonic jump was actually a remake of a previous japan-exclusive J2ME game released in 2005, so they technically had the concept first
i'm still pretty sure the 2012 mobile remake was only to surf on doodle jump's popularity
"Sonic Chronicles 2 will never be more than the plot outline in this video."
I wouldn't be so sure about that, considering the fandom we're talking about. Now given the scoop of the intended game direction and reveals, I would not be entirely surprised to see some good ol' fangame magic happen to tie up the long lost loose end.
I’d be thrilled to see a fan game made with this premise.
Fans are already remaking the first Chronicles so it isn't too crazy.
@@JustCallMeMatt517Once the remake is finished, or at least playable, we'll have the engine ready for use for any original Chronicles style project, including making the unreleased sequel with this plot outline.
It's nice to know the general story of Chronicles 2 after all this time. Learning that has made my day better.
That Chronicles sequel would be sick especially now that the Sonic universe's locations have grown in numbers. Take out the real world aspect and a Chronicles sequel would sound awesome. Just as long as Penders would take the money and not mix his Archie creations into the world. The Chronicles world would become a great "non-canon" parallel Sonic universe much like Sonic X, Boom, Archie and Prime.
Here’s hoping one day Sega will go “Shut up and take you’re money!” and we’ll see all the characters he claimed for himself used again one day.
Nah, I think we just need to have another go at a Sonic RPG from the ground up. Just have Sega make sure any new characters are Penders-proof and move forward with it.
Prime is actually supposed to be canon.
@@mitchellhancock7920 There's way too many contradictions for prime to be canon. At best, it's secondary canon, meaning the main game canon can pull some stuff from there without the whole thing being canon.
@@Prime_LegendJust look it up and see for yourself.
Considering her description, I wonder if Sister Sonic was a prototype Rouge the Bat of some kind. Not that Rouge was literally the playable character mind you, rather that this cancelled idea was still on Sega's mind and they wanted to revisit the concept when they eventually created the character.
nah rouge was created alongside shadow
It's just a sexy femme fatale woman character who happens to have a "rough" job like being a thief or a bounty hunter. It's not like there weren't plenty other character before and after Rouge who can fit for that.
Thanks for your hard work on this video!
It's a shame what happened to Sonic Chronicles. Hopefully we'll get another Sonic RPG one day down the line.
per usual, the story of Archie and Penders, remember to have iron clad contacts and keep 'em on hand, you never know when you'll end up with a Chronicles situation, shame really, Shade was alright and would've been interesting to see them interact with the Koco
why would you ever thank Ken Penders?
It was just a common courtesy. To thank him for taking time out of his day to respond for a CZcams video. Nothing more i guess
As much as people criticize Sonic Chronicles i kinda like how cinematic the story would have wrapped up
I remember i was in a discord server with Miles for the game Wheel of Fate a few years back. For a college project i needed to interview a professional in an industry i wanted to work in, and Miles was super awesome and allowed me to interview him about game design. I remember in our conversation, i mentioned how growing up I was a huge fan of Sonic Chronicles (i believe i had asked him what his favorite games to have worked on were and he said he had genuinely enjoyed getting to work on a Sonic game). He had actually told me a few of the ideas the team had for the sequel (though not in nearly as much detail of course, we mostly stayed on the topic of game design). Overall he was really awesome for letting a random college student interview him, and it was awesome of him to share this info with you guys!
Oh gosh, I’m so excited to check this out!!
I applaud Did You Know Gaming for having the professionalism to not mention what a terrible person Ken Penders is. I'm not sure I'd have that kind of discipline.
Ken Penders saying he OWNS a Color Shifted Knuckles. and making NFTs of him. This is the easiest legal case in the world what is Wrong with SEGA.
Well Chronicles is a big rip off imo, they even traced artworks from Sonic X.
It's not as easy as you would think. I can't remember all of the details, but basically it was a miscommunication between the comics publisher and Sega that the characters weren't immediately copyrighted by Sega and Ken quickly claimed them as his own and they couldn't really do anything after he did that.
@@zeldaglitchmanIt's still an NFT of Green Knuckles. It's not even meant to be a different character, it's just Knuckles, but green. It's even called a Green Knuckles NFT for Pete's sake!
Maybe he did it purely to try to bait Sega into talking about Julie-Su/Shade. NFTs are a stupid gray legal area I imagine so he can use profiting from one to bolster the ownership claims on his work or alternatively (if things come back at him unfavorably) back away the other in terms of any ownership related to Knuckles as a character because “It’s just a link to an image I own, bro.”. He already says he aims to have a not-Knuckles stand-in named “K’nox” whenever he talks about his Lara-Su comic he’s never gonna deliver on.
Really though, do you see anyone actually buying these? I've heard he was gonna list them for 100k each, which I doubt anyone would be silly enough to buy. All this tells me is that he's one of the greedy artists that fell for the NFT meme. Plus, I'd say Sega would be inclined to do anything only if he actually makes a profit, which I doubt.
I was not expecting a surprise Ken Penders villain reveal
Ken Penders, at it once again. Ruining all good things
Something not mentioned in regards to the legal issues behind Chronicles as it's may be more well known with the Sonic fandom than with others. The comic publisher Archie had lost their copy of their contract with Penders. Obviously Ken and his legal team would not privide his copy if he still has it as that would have been the bad for his case. That contract would have been the lynchpin stating that Sega owned any characters created by Ken for the comic. Its standard fare in the comic industry.
The result of Penders v. Archie is why the comics had a massive reboot known as the Super Genesis Wave which nuked EVERYTHING.
If there was mention of a contract, then the court could and should have subpoenaed him for it, or rejected his claim if he didn't provide it. Otherwise they were just going by hearsay.
I guess Ken Penders has a point, he's just protecting his hard work...
"he's also selling NFTs for 100k"
Nop, that's just greed right there
Screw him
Also, I'd love to see how he argued that the concept of "The Twilight Zone" was his own creation...when, even in the most generous of readings, he named an in comics universe area after a long-running anthology TV series made by Rod Serling in the 50's and 60's. That alone should've been a sign things weren't on the up and up there.
Learning what would have happened in Sonic Chronicles 2 satisfied a little part of me that I didn't know I needed satisfying
Thank you sooo much for revealing how the cliffhanger would've been resolved. I loved the fitst game and always wondered what the next game would've been. Its a shame what Ken Penders did to the Sonic franchise!
I wonder if the ideas for the Sister Sonic character were reused for Rogue
Tomb Raider, but with Rouge the Bat
A sexy female bounty Hunter, sounds like Rouge to me.
@@benmalsky9834 I'd play a Falcom-style action RPG starring Rouge. Bonus point, if it has 16-bit style retro graphics. Someone should contact Sega and pitch this idea to them.
God bless this channel for its hard work
I agree
why are you luigismenace
A shame it's full of gatekeepers
Penders and his shinannigans is a deep rabbit hole. The tl;dr is that he's very much disliked. His shinannigans has been well documented and he's pretty infamous.
I always wonder why Sega didn’t task Atlus to do a sequel to Sonic Chronicles…
I’m mean Mario had 3 RPG series under his belt at the time, why hasn’t Sega gave another Sonic RPG by now?
Ken Penders
One of Pender's demands after winning the lawsuit is that Sega be barred from making another Sonic RPG ever again.
@@X2011racer That sucks but i doubt that would actually stop them forever, closest thing would be the Colors DS side missions or some shit
@@Josuh Penders didn't say all RPGs outright, so we have Atlus' RPGs and Yakuza to fill the void.
SEGA seems to have an off hand approach when it comes to studios they own other than Sonic Team
Wonder if, had it released, Sister Sonic would've remained canon or simply been added to the pile of non-canon games like Mean Bean Machine, Knuckles Chaotix, and Sonic Chronicles. Now knowing about Playful Mail's history with Sega, I'd love to see Mail appear as a guest in a Sega crossover title someday.
I like how the characters Bioware made look nothing like the ones Ken made and he bitched about it and then goes and makes an nft where half is Shades body like it's nothing and has the nerve to say he's not unreasonable
Penders being annoying aside, I'm glad we got to here more of Sonic Chronicles plot.
Wow, Ken failing at every point. Good job.
You guys should look into the development of Chaotix next, there was a thread on Sonic Retro about how weird it was, there's a lot of things there to be uncovered I think. I'd give it a read.
Hadn't heard about that- was there anything particularly weird about it, or was it just that it was a game being developed in the chaotic Saturn-adjacent years and so chaos kinda followed in its wake automatically?
@@goranisacson2502 Weirdest thing has to be how it originally featured Sonic and Tails, and was going to be on the Sega Saturn, but the project ended up being hastily reworked on the 32x, mostly because SOA needed games for it. Once they decided that, the original game that Chaotix stemmed from ceased to be. One former developer spoke of this pre-Chaotix stuff as being a 'cancelled' project which is pretty interesting, almost like it was considered a completely different game.
@@kallus2179the development of Chaotix started on the Mega Drive, there are some leaked prototypes called "Sonic Crackers".
@@DJCube1701 Well yeah, but it was on the Saturn according to former SOA CEO Tom Kalinske. He described the decision to "move it to the 32x" as splitting it into parts and introducing it quickly on the 32x. It seemed like it started life on the Mega Drive and moved over to the Saturn later. I really would suggest reading the thread "The Enigma that is Knuckles Chaotix's development" over on the Sonic Retro forums, lots of interesting information and revelations about it are there
I want to respect Ken Penders more than I do. The stories that he wrote in the earlier years of the Sonic Archie series are intriguing and lovable for children of that era undoubtedly, but then he starts copyrighting everything that he "created", preventing the production of so many great content pieces for the Sonic franchise and then everything falls apart. If only the guy knew how teamwork functions, you know, the attribute he IMPLIMENTED into so many of his stories.
That Sonic Chronicles 2 plot sounds great! I always wanted a sequel :(
11:54 Editor's Note:WTF!?
I love this guy...
My take on the Oracle's motivation for making Argus gather all those sapient species in one place to eventually take him out was to test them so it could prepare them for something even bigger a threat than Argus.
"There's always a bigger fish."
You got the Ken Penders lawsuits incorrect, he won the Penders vs Archie due to Archie's lawyer being incompetent and couldn't find his original contract. The lawsuit against EA and Sega was thrown out twice and the appeals court upheld that judge's ruling of throwing it out, because Penders let the statue of limitation run out, he can only file a new lawsuit if Sega uses the characters from Chronicles again, Sega is more than likely not using those characters not because they would lose, they'd win hands down, but they don't want the legal headache, which is probably why Penders is claiming that he owns Shade even though she looks nothing like Julie-Su and doesn't legally own her or any Dark Brotherhood. He also planned to sue Paramount for Sonic the Hedgehog 2 for giving Knuckles a father but never did because he'd lose that one as well
Actually, the Archie contract papers got destroyed in a fire.
Important to note also Pender's case against EA and Sega was thrown out twice because he attempted to sidestep legal procedure when the judge didn't give him the result he wanted. When he refiled, he got given the same judge who called for the same ruling. Trying to game the system was a major factor in why the appeals court upheld the ruling to throw it out. (And truly we don't even know if he'd be in the right to sue again under any circumstance, since we have only Ken's word to go on.)
Most people really don't bring up these details enough, so I gotta appreciate you speaking up on it!
Imagine if normal news media had this level of honest investigative journalism put into it.
"sexy relative" is not a phrase that anybody should say.
It's ok to be sexy
@@vazazell5967 pretty sure "sexy" isn't the part that is the problem
@@technopoptart then what is the problem? Are your relatives not allowed to be sexy? The hell you guys talking about
@@vazazell5967 if you find your RELATIVES sexy that is the problem
@@technopoptart if i found your relatives sexy this is a problem only for you. Why would "sexy relative" be referring to your own relative lol
Even though Chronicles wasn't all that great, I'm kinda mad that they dind't get to do what they wanted. That idea sounded great.
That's crazy! I made a prototype game for college in 2017 about Knuckles having to jump and avoid hazards, sounds very similar to Sonic Day. It's nice to hear that other people had a similar idea!
I was like "Ok, he's wrong but I guess I can see where Ken is coming from" until you said NFT then I was just like--Dude no-
Miles Holmes was right when he said that Ken shouldn't act as if he has the legal claim to an IP he's creating content for when the IP itself is not his own.
He never had a good point. He was a delusional and paranoid maniac with a victim complex who was never in the right and never had a leg to stand on in any way. That's like saying that Chis-chan had a point trying to copyright Sonichu, beliving himself to be some "victim of corporate greed", it's laughable.
Would a sane man go out of their way to destroy their biggest contribution to the comic book industry? Would a sane man lecture kids not to copyright their OCs, only to wind up doing the exact same thing? Would a sane man make NFTs? I think not!
Wait... Nitrome? Like, Skywire Nitrome? Fuck yeah those guys deserve recognition their games were every gen-z kid's elementary school computer time go-to's.
That was always something about the Sister Sonic story that never added up. It was changed back to Popful Mail because of Falcom fans, so if the game truly was an American localization, then where did all of those US Falcom fans come from?
I've admittedly soured on Sonic Chronicles over the years but it is still a shame that all this legal trouble is the only thing that stopped the sequel from happening. The concept sounds awesome; hopefully, Sega gives the Sonic RPG formula another try but with a new idea that doesn't involve litigious echidnas.
"I'm not an unreasonable man"- a man selling nft's
Would you guys consider Shade the Geno of Sonic? Both appeared in one game, that being an RPG, both have rights issues with their owners, and both have their fans, yes I know the Super Mario RPG Remake is real and Geno & Mallow are back in a modern light, also I know it’s literally impossible but would anyone be open to a Sonic Chronicles remake like SMRPG is getting? I really hate how Chronicles is 15 years old and no one took a crack at a Sonic RPG and it should be one that doesn’t trigger the Penders.
the only thing missing between Geno and Shade is the cult following. Shade has her fans, sure, but ultimately shes just seen as a decent character from a mediocre spinoff. If anything, Sonic's Geno would be Cosmo or Sally
Ken Penders is what would happen if Chris Chan got into making real sonic comics
I've known the storied history of Ken Penders for a while now, much more than I should, to be honest. I know full-well what a horrible manchild he is. However, I think I might give the edge to Penders in this one. I don't think it's just that Sonic Chronicles 2 had characters that looked too much like his OCs. The story described directly rips off a few stories he wrote for the Archie comic series.
The main premise of the Archie comic series is that Sonic is accidentally sent into the future, allowing Eggman to take over. Like, also involving sonic being in a pocket dimension where time flows slower.
In issue #19, Sonic opens a door to the cosmic gateway, a multiverse where every Sonic and every Eggman interact. They all flow into his world, and the sonics build a worldwide sonic coalition, while the Eggmans collaborate to resurrect this robot space god thing and take over the world. In an act of desperation, Eggman joins the Sonics to take down the ancient space god. This was written in late-1994 by Ken Penders, and it sounds eerily similar to the first act of Chronicles 2 described. Penders would later write a Knuckles spinoff comic in which Knuckles discovers past tribes of Echidna and tries to find a surviving mate of another tribe.
I know Penders can't (and SHOULDN'T) own the idea of a darker take on Sonic about a gang of freedom fighters liberating a roboticized earth, but this case seems more like Penders overzealousy trying to defend stories he wrote, and feels cheated out of.
Ah, Sonic Chronicles. A topic so thoroughly baked in the PENDERS STENCH, it'll never wash off.
Props to getting both sides of the story 👏
Ken Penders saying if he was paid hed allow chronicles 2 to happen is the same thing he said about using his characters in the comic...with the caviat he'd be made head writer and main creative supervisor, which I imagine itd be the same with Chronicles.
So im glad we didnt got a chronicle 2 cause itd have been awful given Ken's writing record in the comics...
nitrome was the core of my flash game experience as a kid, awesome to hear them mentioned in a video for the first time
Ken is wrong completely. While he may or may not own certain Sonic Characters, he does not own concepts. He cannot own the rights to another Echidna Clan nor can he own the right of new echidna characters created separately from his own. The most he could ask for in that case is that the characters do not resemble his own.
Ken Penders hawking $100K NFTs a year after the market died to "prove" his copyright over the character is the most Ken Penders thing I've ever heard,
Man hearing how good SEGA's reception to Bioware's work on Sonic bums me out cause the stuff they had planned sounded really cool and it would've been a really good shake-up for Knuckles' status quo.
Ken Penders forever remains one of the biggest losers ever in the comic industry.
I couldve sworn Sega found the original contracts for the characters after Penders threatened to sue Paramount ove Sonic 2 the Movie.
I like happy endings. I wish Dinosaur Planet meet the same fate as Popful Mail
Man, Sega was really sloppy with the Sonic Chronicle lawsuit. That would normally be an easy lawsuit because it's their IP, but sounds like their contracts with Penders had too many holes!
With how Sonic Frontiers went, perhaps the plot outline we got for Chronicles, we can get something of similar scale and magnitude. The End in Frontiers didn't fully die, as that was only an incarnation, so I have a feeling it will pop up in the future.
makes me wonder if Sister Sonic was the inspiration for Sonic to actually have one in Sonic Underground. Sonia was a solid character in it too, so whoever wrote her had a decent amount of time to think about her character
Ken Penders: Claims he's not an unreasonable man.
Also Ken Penders: Charges $100,000 for an nft.
Ys III/Popfulmail Sonic would have been INCREDIBLE
I think it would have been one of the worst things ever.
As someone who was excited for the sequel it really boils my bloods that it won't happen because of one a-hole.
19:40 "if Sega sees this video"
I sure hope you wont get copyright for some dumbest reason
How in the blue hell does Sonic not have ninja gaiden wall jumping as default?! it makes so much sense that it hurts.
He does? Have you not played Sonic Unleashed, Colors, Generations, Lost World, and Frontiers?
@@Omar_E11 All of which are more contextual than anything, I'm talking a normal part of his moveset that could be done anywhere, with stages built around it.
@@monkeybone1080 They aren't contextual in Colors and Lost World.
@@Omar_E11 Alright my bad, I hadn't actually played those two games, I'm just saying his speed makes such moves a no brainer and more games should be built around stuff like wall jumps.
it has already been done in alot of 3D sonic games.
Ken Penders is the black stain on Sonic that never fucking goes away
Somehow, just showing a picture of Pen Kenders is just enough to explain as to why Sonic Chronicles 2 didn't get made