We Need to Talk About Game of Thrones I Guess
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- čas přidán 27. 06. 2019
- Themes are for eighth grade book reports.
We need to talk about Game of Thrones Part 2: • The Last of the Game o...
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(Some) sources:
Itzkoff, Dave. “Vince Gilligan of 'Breaking Bad' Talks About Ending the Season, and the Series.” The New York Times, The New York Times, 10 Oct. 2011, artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/09/vince-gilligan-of-breaking-bad-talks-about-ending-the-season-and-the-series/
McCreesh, Louise. “Westworld's Season 2 Plot Was Rumbled by Reddit Users.” Digital Spy, Digital Spy, 30 Nov. 2018, www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a824423/westworld-fans-guess-season-2-twist-creators-change/
VanDerWerff, Emily Todd. “Game of Thrones and the Danger of Planned Finales.” Vox, Vox, 27 May 2019, www.vox.com/culture/2019/5/27/18639229/game-of-thrones-finale-disappointing-the-iron-throne-recap
Soldwedel, Steve. “David Chase on the Sopranos Finale.” New York Post, New York Post, 12 June 2007, nypost.com/2007/06/12/david-chase-on-the-sopranos-finale/
Greenwald, Andy. “Winter Is Here.” Grantland, 27 Mar. 2013, grantland.com/features/the-return-hbo-game-thrones/
Tufekci, Zeynep. “The Real Reason Fans Hate the Last Season of Game of Thrones.” Scientific American Blog Network, 17 May 2019, blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/. - Zábava
"Have you considered the best ruler might be someone who doesn't want to rule?"
I guess the moral of the story is that Bobby B really was the best king in the entire series.
Which was weird because didn't the wheel chair boy say "Why do you think I came all this way?"
Sounds like something some one who wants the throne would say lol. And the lil guy did take the job lol... Just sayin...
And to that logic Ned is the best ruler
I think the best king is a Lovecraftian abomination!
I've thought Robert was the best king the whole time! Okay, maybe he was drunk, bloodthirsty, financially irresponsible, and not very bright, but at least that's all that was wrong with him.
You're not wrong
"Sometimes you've got some feelings, and you've just gotta monetise them."
A complete dismantling of Ben Shapiro's argument against reproductive autonomy ain't gonna monetize itself. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Love the way you and Alia Ris quoted the exact same line save for the spelling (monetise vs monetize)
44 minutes. One ad at the end. What a glorious woman
Eyy, it's the handsome devil himself!
All my favorite youtubers are involved in the greatest crossover constantly and it's one of my favorite things. :D
"The ending was, in fairness, foreshadowed by other things being bad."
Officer, I'd like to report a murder.
See also: Sherlock
If you still had high expectations by the end of s8 then I dont think you were paying attention lol
@@ComfortableTool86 see also: LOST
I feel really bad for the actors here too. They brought their A game to this show and dedicated long years to it. Imagine being Lena Headey and putting all of that effort into Cersai only to get crushed by a rock. Awful.
She needed a grand final scene. She deserved it. I wish she would have either gone completely mad or realized how it was she who ruined herself and her kids.
imagine being Lena Headey, and a cardboard cutout could have done 90% of your job in S8.. such a shame
To be honest, Lena Headey was probably already crushed by two straight seasons of 'here, Lena, just look out this window in this really nice dress. You want some wine?'
Or how the writers gave Peter Dinklage that ridiculous "stories" monologue in the final episode, and he had to figure out how to act that shit convincingly.
@@Ealsante imagine her getting the script each episode and being like "again?"
I really liked Alex Hirsch's take on this-he was like, "Yeah, people guessed the twists of Gravity Falls before the episodes released. Good! It's a mystery! Unsolvable puzzles suck. Who does that?"
Not an exact quote.
Also he released a fake leak for the big S2 twist, which is a fun way to both mess with fans while also generating interest with them without actually changing any of the content itself.
Pray he never learns of Steve Moffat, then. I suspect there would be blood.
I once read a short mystery story in 3rd grade, that apparently had been illustrated in the first printing, but the version I was reading was from a magazine digest or something, and the illustrations had been removed. The solution to the puzzle was revealed after the "Can you solve the mystery?" page gimmick. And the answer was, "It's hidden behind the painting of Bo Peep!" Now, I went and re-read the entire story. No mention of this painting anywhere in the text, just a description of the "cluttered parlor" that clearly originally had an illustration with said painting in it. And oh boooy did I rage. It was cheating! It was unfair! And here I am, 25 or so years later, still pissed off about it.
I don't care if I can't solve the mystery or guess wrong, and just turn the page for the solution. But do I ever care if the solution was totally un-guessable based on the facts presented. That's what makes the mystery satisfying: that you *could have* guessed it, and that's what makes mysteries re-readable, seeing the same story with new information makes you pay more attention to the clues. I hardly ever guess the solution to Agatha Christie novels, even when they are pretty obvious based on her preferred tropes and I've read dozens of her books. I don't care, she puts in the work to get to whatever preposterous conclusion honestly.
If you try to subvert all of the fans' theories and expectations, you only end up subverting the expectation that the show is going to be good.
It was so gratifying when the twist was revealed in Gravity Falls -- and even moreso *because* it was one of the theories I'd been following online beforehand. The foreshadowing was subtle and everything tied together really well. What a great show.
19:48 The dragon didn't burn the throne for the symbolism. It burned it because it saw that its mom was killed by a knife so it killed the knifes family.
And then after Drogon flies away, they go on a rebellion against anything that looks like a knife in all of Westeros and Essos.
@@droopsmoop Petition GRRM to make this canon.
@@vontosmagicmurderbag2611 A Song of Knives and Fire
I wish. Turns out 2D wrote in the script that the Iron Throne was just burned by Drogon randomly, and it didn't have specific importance. I didn't think Dumb & Dumber could make the scene even more stupid, but here we are.
LMAO best comment!
Peter Dinklage, while delivering the "And who has a better story than Bran the Broken" line: "I'm just going to look into the distance, think really hard about my paycheck, and everything will be OK."
the average service job experience
That line made my soul leave the parking lot where it was already fuming and walk into the ocean never to be seen again.
It would not😅
@@Nomadic813tyrion himself for one. Sansa arya jon snow. Pretty mych anyone. Even grey worm😅
ELMO! ELMO THE TICKLED!!! THAT’S WHO!!!😊
The point of a twist is to enrich a story, not to feel superior for outsmarting your audience.
P
SuBvErTiNg ExPeCtAtIoNs! 😵💫
And a good twist does not "jump from the brambles", it is built up and hinted at or at least explained in a logical way even if the audience did not see it coming.
Hehe you thought the story was gonna go on a natural course? Get this! Tyrion actually trips on his own foot and breake his neck on the floor! Bet you didn't see that coming, huh...brilliant, I know
That's what makes a good DM/GM: you are not the ENEMY of the players, you're there to facilitate the story unveiling before you. If you treat players as your enemies they will... feel it. They will, consciously or not, notice. Same with treating your audience/readers as hostile: you should want to SHOW them a story, not SHOCK them with a story...
"I've got some feelings, and sometimes you gotta monetize them."
CZcams's new tag line.
It could be the tagline for all of modern life.
Lindsay needs to merch the crap out of that line...
I never liked a video so fast in my life.
EternalGuardian07
”HOT FANTASY THAT FUCKS!!”
aaaaaand there goes monetization
I hate how true this is.
I miss old youtube, no, old internet, where people just made shit for the fun of it, and we got things like the meth minute and chocolate rain.
Finally, America knows what its like when the anime catches up to the manga.
At least Naruto just filled those gaps with fillers that you could skip. A few of those were even good (Guren arc).
Holy shit... you're totally right...
Damn... So much truth in one comment...
Game of Thrones: Brotherhood - coming in 2037 after Brandon Sanderson finally finishes the books!
@@T33K3SS3LCH3N D&D tried to fill GOTS with filler too at first, Yara rescuing Theon, Hardholme, Jon goes to Craster's Keep to fight the mutineers. All filler either not in the books or only vaguely mentioned.
The writers for the podcast The Magnus Archives said it best, I think: you should have some people who guess it perfectly, some people who get most of it, and some people who have no clue what's going on. Your big reveals have to be earned, they have to be built to. If literally no one could ever possibly see it coming, you failed.
The Magnus Archives is so, so good dude.
@@jazwhoaskedforthis I’m on season 4 now, and I’m blown away at how well written this short form horror podcast is.
@@TSDTalks22 DUDE isn't it wonderful?! Who's your favorite so far? What was your favorite statement?
@@jazwhoaskedforthis they're all great, but I'm partial to the first one, about the angler fish
That's also why Twin Peaks, which originated this shit is still above it. People managed to GUESS the twist in the finale even if they didn't guess the finale
Emelia Clarke has one of the most hilariously expressive faces when she's not acting, I love it.
@@aliasmcgames "Best season ever!"
@@aliasmcgames I mean with that dialogue there’s not much you can do with it
Shes very charming.
@@aliasmcgames That's exactly how I feel about it.
For once someone has to tone _down_ their acting to play a character
I just.... Sansa was RAPED for CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. And they legitimately made her say that she COULDN'T HAVE GROWN if it hadn't happened!!!!
41:22
As if that poor character had not gone through enough trauma prior to Ramsay.
It's almost as if the entire industry has a shitty and twisted view of women and we were right to question why they had so many rape scenes.
It almost makes you think those scenes turn them on.
The´Ol victims own fault for getting raped a guess:P
one of the reasons i stopped after that season.
If you been following Lindsay from the beginning you'd know this was actually heavily foreshadowed.
@@nullakjg767 She goes by the Nostalgia woman now.
@@nullakjg767 Idk what you're talking about but I know The Nostalgic Woman.
I get what you did there.
@@nullakjg767 that was 11 years ago. She's moved on since then.
Your username confuses me. Are you a good? Are you a bad?
Seems like a similar problem that BBC Sherlock had, where the writers were actively contemptuous of and always wanted to be more clever than the fans
BBC Sherlock was never smart. There are some smart bits here and there but it wasn't and overall smart.
I cant wait for season 5 to reveal that Jim Morriarty was the Boomerang all along
@@devilsadvocate4081 funnily enough bbc Sherlock is one of the dumbest shows I’ve watched. I liked the first seasons, it was a fun watch, but it tries sooo hard to be clever.
You notice quickly when a writer tries to write a character who is supposed to be smarter than them- it’ll never work.
Leave it to Moffat to take the ultimate detective archetype where part of the thrill is understanding the thought processes that lead to the brilliant conclusions and just saying, “nope, audience needs to feel dumber - BOOMERANG!”
@@skiddadleskidoodle4094 I don't think that's true at all, that a writer writing a character smarter than themselves is inherently a problem. Remember, Gatiss and Moffat came from writing Doctor Who, where the protagonist is famously and definitionally smarter than all humans!
They were always putting a new spin on the character, that's allowed. The problem with Sherlock was the problem with many shows: the quality dropped in later seasons, probably due to the writers running out of ideas, and maybe getting a bit bored and losing discipline in their writing.
I'm seeing a lot of people having this criticism of Sherlock (in retrospect): that it was trying to be too smart. But if it took so long for everybody to realise that the writers weren't actually all that smart, I think that's evidence enough that actually, they did a pretty good job of achieving what they wanted, at least in the first couple of seasons. And it wasn't even one of those shows that was always teasing some big mystery that was never resolved-most mysteries were resolved within the episode.
Forgot to mention one of the worst parts, in my opinion. How vintage Alan Cumming, a political mastermind, tried to manipulate two young girls for at least half a season and failed so badly that he died.
He forgot everyone else weren't NPCs, and they can actually talk to each other.
How terrible of a manipulator must you be if you couldn’t manage to make two TEENAGE GIRLS argue with each other?
@@theoneandonlymichaelmccormick correction, two teenage SISTERS. Literally every girl I've ever known who has a sister would hate each other in their teens.
@@folded_pizza Even better.
She brings it up in Part 2 aka "The Last of the Game of Thrones Hot Takes".
If people guess a twist and it's A GOOD twist, keep it. Let them be right. The point of a story is to be a good story, not a surprising story.
Exactly, and guessing the twist is not necessarily bad: it's actually satisfying when you see that happen for real. I mean, book- and screenwriting all live on basic tropes that are a thousand years old, so you can't really expect to come up with something absolutely new or unheard of story-wise. But it can still be engaging and well written, so just follow through with your plan... but I guess that's not how D&D think, since "themes are for 8 graders".
Yeah, the only reason I could see to rewrite a twist is if people have a visceral, negative reaction. In that narrow case you got to screen out the wet thuds, but if the accurate fan theory has a million upvotes, then you've done it right.
Unless your name is Rian Johnson and want nothing other from a movie than to be surprised!
between dedicated theory and fanfiction communities of millions of people someone somewhere has guesses every possible ending or twist. showrunners only notice if theory become popular and that only when people either really like or hate thoery
Exactly. It's just as fun to say "I KNEW IT! SEE I TOLD YOU THAT WOULD HAPPEN!" as it is to say "woah, I didn't expect that at all... nicely done writers."
It's ironic that they were banking on a controversial but memorable ending when not even a year later the show has almost entirely faded from the public consciousness
Whenever it comes up in conversation my friends and I are still annoyed by it. It seems to me that it hasn't faded from the consciousness so much as people have stopped talking about it like it's the weird uncle who doesn't get invited to family parties any more. Shame 🔔
Yep. Talking about it is so depressing so we choose to change the conversation every time.
Pretty much dropped the entire thing once I saw Daenerys burn the city for literally no reason. Just completely forgot there were two episodes left, never thought about it again.
After watching this I can see that it did, in fact, get worse.
It was probably a massive loss for those companies that invested in licenses of products related to the show in the last seasons. I saw all the merchandise that was selling like hot cakes before the 8th season, went on discount sales only a couple of weeks after the last episode.. Also there was a traveling show of the props that had many cities scheduled for the tour, and I didn’t hear if they ever continued it or cancelled it for lack of interest
Correct. Years later we still talk about LOTR and Harry Potter fondly because they were properly ended. GOT? We just swiped it under the rug. The most popular show in the world for 8 years just fades away into the nothing
My favourite thing ever is the Game of Thrones Season 8 table read. All these brilliant actors who probably could have written a better ending (barring some exceptions) looking absolutely HORRIFIED while D&D revel in their own 'brilliance'. Nothing will beat Emilia Clarke literally sliding down her chair while trying to hide her upset and Conleth Hill just openly fucking hating the script as Lena Headey grieves silently.
They shoulda aired the table read instead, honestly
The moment when Sansa's actor just smirks at Jon Snow's actor like... "first time?" 😏
Old Nan should have been made queen of Westeros she has way better stories than Bran.
Munashiimaru underrated comment
Lmao
So good 😂
Hot Pie has a better story than Bran.
Watching all the actors just honestly cringe their ass off hearing the script is one of the most hilarious/painful things to come out of GOT.
Same goes for their interviews post-filming, but pre-streaming. There's an entire compilation out there and I don't know whether it is more hilarious or devastating.
It's hilariously cringy when you see it, but it's depressing when you realize that people are blaming the actors for what their characters did and not the writers/producers.
BlazingOwnager the guy that played Jon was SHOOK
@@salenebrom6476 Varys was just pissed lmao.
Yeah. I feel so sorry for the Jon and Dany actors.
When the fan theories in Steven Universe were confirmed it was so cathartic! Changing twists because someone figured it out is basically punishing your fans for being enthusiastic about your work.
It doesn't even make too much sense from a story-telling perspective. Obviously some twists are gonna be more predictable, and some mysteries easier to solve, but if you are consistent with your world and it's rules, there have to be some clues to what might happen.
Who cares if a few people in a modern fan base figure it out, how would you even beat such a massive hive mind, as long as most people watching can't figure out while viewing or casually discussing it with a friend I'd argue you got a solid mystery.
YES!
I remember a couple people being upset about the Pink Diamond thing. But like ... the moment Steven had that dream from the perspective of Pink Diamond, there was only one possible explanation so I just waiting for the show to make it explicit. I'm not sure how they could have changed it, because the twist is way too central to the resolution of the main conflict.
@@21swords76 talks about disdain for fans then goes and says "steven universe *scoff* how can that have difficult twists?“. Watch something and then judge for yourself what quality of writing it has
It's incredibly childish, in my opinion. I've not watched Steven Universe (saw an episode or two, not my cup of tea), but clearly if people are figuring it out, it's only fair to let them get the satisfaction of earning that victory.
[Mini-"Last Airbender" rant spoilers]
If people called out that Zuko was gonna join Team Avatar, and the creators popped a 180 just because they REALLY wanted to manufacture a surprising twist, it would have really ruined what they built up over two seasons. All this time, Zuko learning what asshats the Fire Nation can be, and his place in it not being everything he thought it'd be, not giving us the payoff of him making the decision to switch sides when it was supposed to happen would have been for nothing, and just ruined his character. Imagine instead of him making his grand declaration, he stuck to his Fire Nation guns and just stayed bad guy the whole time? It'd be awful.
The ending should of been Lancel finding the breastplate stretcher.
Too bad he died :(. Maybe the reason he didn't put out the candle in time is because he *found* the breast-plate stretcher in the dungeon!
"Where did this come from?"
"That's a story for another time."
Or maybe Gordon finding the lamb sauce
Or we finally see what's in the Pulp Fiction briefcase.
We finally learn what the three seashells do
You know what would have been a really unexpected way to kill off the Night King?
A boomerang.
NEEDS MORE UPVOTES!!!!!
*A FUCKING BOOMERANG*
I imagined a cartoon boomerang taking him down and then Sokka peacing out ~water tribe~ haha
For those wondering: czcams.com/video/LkoGBOs5ecM/video.html
@@Souzu21 knew exactly what this was going to lead to, but clicked it anyway to relive Hb's mental breakdown over a boomerang
In pure GoT tradition, the second part should be rushed and poorly scripted.
Let's try to guess what she's going to talk about so she has to change everything last minute!
Second part? I'm Swayze!!!!
@Diego Salvati Nice.
@@VolvoxSocks Also nice.
Yes please!
the way the writers treated sansa's character arc still makes me so heated oh my god. i'm not even a stickler for keeping to the source material, but like... she was supposed to be the captive of littlefinger and learn his tricks of deception, politics, secrecy etc to become stronger and smarter, then eventually use what she learned against him. that's interesting and it's a different storyline than many of the other characters. but the writers just said fuck it, the only way a female character can become stronger is to be raped and traumatized for shock value. i hate them so much
The whole "I would not have become a strong woman if I weren't raped" trope is so problematic 🤢
Lindsay went into more detail about that in Part 2.
Thing I would've loved to see with her was if she learned from LF without him realizing it. Like if she played the quiet little bird the whole while, only to turn things around on him.
But no. Hamfisted, she's wearing black and looking like she's evil now. Or something.
@@dominicbounds8768 In the books at least (I don´t quite remember if it was in the show) Sansa actually did reveal Ned's plan to send them away to Cersei so without her stupidity she herself and Arya might have escaped to the North. Ned himself wasn't going to escape though so he likely would have died anyway though without the girls to blackmail him with he probably never would have given his false confession.
@@E-Man5805 In the books Littlefinger actually explains his thinking to her voluntarily, for various reasons probably (it hasn't really been made clear why).
“He takes more punishment than hodor took at the door” sounds like horrible fanfic lmao
Sad thing is, there are GoT fanfics out there with better writing than what D+D pulled out of their keisters once they ran out of source material to adapt.
oh my god.... it reads like a bad analogy for either making out or making love lmao
"And who has a better story than Bran the Broken?".
Well, to quote Gary Oldman in The Professional: "EEEEEVERYOOOONE!".
Bran has magical prophetic powers. If there was anybody who would understand how much better everybody else’s stories were, it would be somebody with magical prophetic powers.
@@theoneandonlymichaelmccormick Does it matter though if he doesn't even tell them (in the show)? He could've told everyone about Jon's actual parents way before, but he only said a story about his chair while it was Sam the one who told Jon after figuring it out. His powers stopped being useful in the show but he had to be kept around for the last season for some reason.
@@roj4169 Because Weiss and Benioff didn’t want to use magic and prophecy in a show with dragons and witches in it.
@@dominicbounds8768 Or make a show about the Confederacy winning the Civil War.
"Cersei parked herself on the balcony with a glass of wine
And stayed there for the next two seasons."
LINDSAY I'M DEAD
Too easy.
Not, I am stupid.
And turned into a flawless meme ever since.
@Darth Cersei Lena Headey's best memories all seem to be scenes with Sophie Turner and so on from the early seasons - like... how is she meant to get that Emmy with a zombie, an underdeveloped evil Maester and... guards?!
oh and of course Hot Topic Pirate
Lindsay just straight up being like 'why are d+d even writers if they have no understanding of theme, basic plot structure and empathy?' is the content I subscribed for
And didn't they get signed on for some Star Wars shit? It will be amazing if they'd still be hired to do it after their flops. No one should really care to see their versions of anything really, especially Star Wars after that has been fucking up. Troy is the only good that has come out of those two, I'd say. Because all of the good GoT material they utilized they didn't write, it seems.
I'm still laughing from her calling them chuckle fucks.
rich parents
The only one who went full circle was actually jon, and sansa, the rest was wtf and some fanservice. I can see that woprking for star wars thou, its a popcorn movie.
I would argue that plot structure is the one thing D&D do understand. It is theme that they don't care about. If you asked Martin what Game of Thrones is about, you'd probably get a passionate rant about all the themes that initially hyped him to create this story. D&D wouldn't be able to see further past "a bunch of people want to sit in a chair". The thing is Martin is so in love with his universe that he bloated the story beyond the ability to ever have an ending. For awhile, D&D made the story overall less frustrating as around Season 5/Season 6 it was at least efficiently moving towards a conclusion. That conclusion was bad. But at least they were cutting fat and not adding a ton of big new characters and complications super late into the game.
Once upon a time, fans being able to see where a story is going before it gets there was called foreshadowing, and it was considered a good thing.
I think the rape scenes could have made sense (regardless of whether they needed to be graphically shown or not). But SO OFTEN they were framed by the show and necessary for the victim (sansa), a romantic part of a relationship dynamic (Dani and Drogo), or something we should root for (when Cersei set the mountain on the priest woman, when Cersei was raped by her brother).
Rape is never a necessary part of a persons growth. Rape is never a justified means of revenge.
The problem for me with the rape scenes were shot so often in a way to titlate. All bouncing breasts and lithe bodies. They weren't shot to show the actual horror of rape. How dehumanising it is. It wasn't clawing, struggling women screaming and sobbing, beaten into bloody unconsciousness. It was sexy rape, with a pointedly male gaze.
So i just want to compare how rape is dealt with in the books vs the show.
So in both book and show at 1 point 3 men try to rape brienne. In both jamie stops it by offering sapphires. Now in books we get a whole plot devoted to brienne hunting these dudes down, reclaiming her power, and learning about patriarchy. Without this it's just brienne having her power taken away for reasons I guess?
The second is sansa's rape in the show. In the books it's a different girl, jeyne poole. Now it's still awful, but it's got two important things going for it, A:jeyne was never built up to have an empowerment arch only to have it stripped away from her. B: she wasn't a pov character we spent six seasons getting into the head of. It didn't ask us to put ourselves into her head her mid rape. The rape wasnt even on page.
And also jamie raping cersei in the show weird cause like. That scene in the books is very explicitly the other way around, and is an important moment for Cersei (reacting to her trauma by inflicting it on others) its also meant to say that rape is about power and happens on the lines of power more then the lines of gender.
The show looked at source material that handles rape about as well as any story could hope to, and fucks up every single thing George has to say on the matter
@@lindoriel7286 yeah the fart huffing assholes who wrote the show probably thought it was funny or arousing or something, God I fucking hate those people so much
@@gonfftheprince does Brienne kill the guys please tell me
@@andymancan_ she kills two of them, but the third gets his throat ripped out by nymeria while arya is having a wolf dream
Also as an author I'm baffled authors get mad when people figure them out. Isn't that the point? When you leave clues and people get it? I'd be thrilled
I mean...probably depends on how easy it was to guess. But of course it gets easier the longer you make them wait for the next book.
It wasnt authors who wrote the ending. It was a couple of hack frauds.
Blame Agatha Christie for being wildly popular and believing that a detective novel was a contest between the writer and the reader.
Noaqiyeum but the detective doesn’t win if you have to change the ending to purposefully screw the audience.
Cinema Gaming I agree - it’s one of the reasons I’m not generally a huge Christie fan. (Look at the deal with The Mousetrap to see how much importance she put on unpredictable, unspoiled twists, for instance. One of the things she’d do would be to wait until well into writing the book to even decide whodunnit.)
Sophie Turner looking at Kit at the table read with that sardonic smile while his characterization is shattered is so funny to me; like WELCOME TO MY HELL, BUDDY
I think she was reading ahead; that is the half smirk of a best friend knowing your day is about to get a lot worse.
Her schaudenfreude is delightful
@@JMarchel it's Schadenfreude,coming from "the damage/bad luck in this case - der Schaden" and "the joy-die Freude"
Total bs. She knows he hasn't read it before. It's no secret.
Lena Heady gave Conleth Hill a very consoling look when he learned how the writers had decided to dispose of his character. She knows what it's like to be written into a one-note part after being one of the most intriguing players. It's a crime that she didn't get an Emmy for playing one of the top three femme fatale villains of all time.
Almost a year later. No one talks about this show anymore, most people have forgotten it, and no one has rewatched it since. It's hilarious what's happened after it's demise.
Sometimes I rewatch a very good episode here and there from the first 4 seasons and I weep silently to myself mourning the 4 potentially good seasons we could have had
Read Joe Abercrombie's First Law trilogy. It was the satisfying conclusion to a violent epic fantasy I'd been waiting for since being blue-balled by GoT
My dad likes to rewatch it.
So, it gets rewatched, but by people with mixed dementia.
I rewatch it all the time, up until I get disinterested because I know how it ends. Usually stop about halfway through season six. Such a shame, the show was still objectively great early on.
I started rewatching and then stopped after season 4.
As for people talking about it, I’ve only heard people mention it recently within the House of the Dragon fandom, mostly in terms of “please don’t fuck this one up like the last one got fucked up”
I know how Romeo Juliet ends yet I avidly watch all its iterations. It's not about suspense,it's about emotional grip.
She mentions exactly that in part 2 of her GoT take down and in her Titanic video.
It's probably a good thing if someone guessed where your story is going, because it means your story is coherent and consistent
Exactly. People putting so much time and effort into theorizing about where the plot is going to go is about as clear a demonstration of fan engagement as is possible. When you change your plot just because a handful of redditors guessed the direction, you are effectively punishing them for liking your show by depriving them of the "HA! I knew it!" payoff moment.
@@mrrodgers0 Completely agree!
In a normal world where writers try to create a good story ... yes
In a world where the suits try to squeek out the maximum amount of subscriptions ... NOT AT ALL
This is the theory they will use :
if people know X is going to happen in episode N then they will only watch episode N and not any episode before.
Therefor we have 'lost' a subscriber and not made as much money as we wanted.
You can kind of see this with sports too.
Only the dedicated fans will watch the entire season of their sport.
The rest will only ever watch it whenever their favourite club/athlete has a chance of winning the main event.
The suits think they can keep everyone subscribed by not telling them who will make it to the finals.
Also means that your foreshadowing is on point. If people have 3+ years to obsessively analyze a book, it's gonna be effectively impossible to foreshadow *anything* without *someone* guessing the twist.
Honestly, if I made such a high-profile show with a running mystery and people figured it out, I would be ecstatic that there were people observant enough to follow the breadcrumbs I left perfectly. If I changed anything at all, it might be to make a small winking nod at them that ultimately doesn't change anything beyond adding a funny line to the script. Changing your entire story because people...followed the clues you left for them to figure out? That's needlessly spiteful and only hurts yourself in the end.
Wait wait wait
You realized that you couldn't properly make your point in the allotted time
so you're making another video to wrap things up rather than rushing to a shitty conclusion?
Somewhere, Dave and Dan's heads are exploding.
Yeah, they're still doing Star Wars. No, I'm not happy about it
Lol, I love you.
I cannot imagine, for a second, that this was coincidental.......
No career in block busting television show running for her.
@@thomasr.jackson2940 But this is so wonderfully conceptual...
"it had to be *hot fantasy, that FUCKS*." lindsay you are KILLING me
25:06
I can't actually fathom that this happened only a year ago. It feels like a millennium away writing in June 2020....pray for us past Lindsay.
2020 is so oddly slow.
Best profile pic ever
It truly was a different world then
To be fair 2020 has lasted forever
It's 2021, things have not changed
Writer 1: oh Gods they figured out our twist! We have to rewrite it! *explains new twist*
Writer 2: that's stupid.
Writer 1: but they won't expect it.
Writer 2: because it's stupid!
+
BHAHAHA
Real plot twist - writer 2 did not exist.
James Turton well that would certainly subvert my expectations...🤪. Lol
That's a sure sign of a hack writer. You should want your audience to be able to figure out your twist. That means your story makes sense!
"We gotta change the show because we only exist to outsmart reddit."
Okay, so on this point - which is one of my favorite quotes from this fantastic breakdown - one of my majors in undergrad was English with a concentration in creative writing. There was a lot of discussion on the idea of surprising the reader, specifically with regard to plot. While there are varying arguments on how to go about this, one of the strongest threads was that you need to balance between surprise and satisfaction. Specifically, you need to write a surprise knowing a good percentage of your audience is going to guess it by the end, and, in fact, that's what you want to aim for. Allowing the reader to feel like they've guessed the ending correctly makes them like the book *more*, not less. Concurrently, if you have readers who guess your ending, as an author, you should be happy about this. It means the reader has invested considerable thought and energy into your work. They get you. They get the characters. They get the motivations. Your writing brought the reader so far into your head, they thought like you.
The idea that any of these showrunners think, especially in this day and age when fans can gather online in the millions, that people guessing their twists is a bad thing is just ridiculous.
This is a really good point and I feel like I've learned something. I'm just wondering why I didn't learn it during MY time studying English and Creative Writing. ¬_¬
Oh so that's what's going on there.
I knew there had to be a reason for my visceral hatred of movie/tv writers who do the "oh the internet guesses this, so we're going to do anything but that" thing. I just had no idea how to express it beyond angry whinging.
Thank you.
The problem folks like these showrunners have is confusing a well-written destination with a predictable one.
There's nothing wrong with some portion of your readers - even all of them, in some cases - reasoning out where the story is likely headed.
It's only a (potential) problem if everyone who hears even a rough description of the story thus far knows where it's headed: you're likely writing into cliche at that point. Which, in and of itself, isn't always necessarily a bad thing! But that's the kind of problem they seem to THINK they have anytime someone guesses correctly about where their shows are going when, really, it's more likely just an indication some people like and care enough about the story to have reasoned out its intended endgame.
tl;dr reasonability isn't a problem; predictability might be.
Also English grad here- one of the greatest pieces of advice in writing I personally got (concerning twists) was “Don’t make a twist that makes someone scratch their head, make them go ‘oh, but of course’’”
I feel like an emphasis on surprise over satisfaction is what made me hate both Last Jedi and Endgame so much.
Clegane-bowl was a serious regression in The Hound's character development. Any last meeting between the Cleganes should have been The Mountain asking his brother to end his suffering, maybe even with a bit of a scuffle before hand.
I think once The Mountain became a zombie, then CleganeBowl became pointless. The Hound wasn't going to get any emotional payoff in such a fight because his brother was already dead. It's like hitting a practice dummy. Like Lindsay said, "his (Sandor's) arc wasn't about getting revenge. It was about moving *past* that."
@@KneelB4Bacon I guess the writers kinda forgot that revenge was bad.
@@judeconnor-macintyre9874Well themes are for 8th grade book reports after all. It makes perfect sense why they would say that. D&D don't think themes are bad. They just have the intelligence of 1st graders so anything above that is beyond their comprehension.
The romcom montage of Dany and Jon’s meetcute is still one of the funniest things this show has given us
The entire point of a table read is to see if it's working! So it's even more frustrating how the writers ignored the cast's genuine reactions.
Is that what they are supposed to be for? I've just heard that actors HATE them.
@@TheDraykon They hate them because of stuff like this, they don't get much SAY in any changes made, jut told. You act it. So while the writers go on crack induced character assassination, they just got to sit there and listen to character they put work into and tried to make interesting literately die on the page.
They probably thought those reactions were great if they were purely after shock.
@@TheDraykon No, not even remotely. I don't know where this dude came up with the idea that writers give a flying fuck what the actor's think about the script at all, because it's laughably incorrect. The point of a table read is familiarization with the material and a very basic rehearsal before they move on to more complex rehearsals.
I wonder if they would’ve changed the story if an actor actually started crying or threatened to quit
“Themes are for eighth grade book reports”
And so is your writing, David. And so is your writing.
Now you are just insulting eighth grade book reports 😂
Oh man, gonna turn into a hound for that burn shiiiiit.
And yet he gets handed the reins of Star Wars
Seasons long and not a word, two episodes and NOW their writing is crap.
Well I kinda agree with this... Themes should not be the main focus when you write your story. Good writing should. And yes, good writing in an "objective" sense : good and adequate vocabulary, good dialogues, pacing, structure etc... When you're good on those technical issues, you can write almost anything...
... the problem is D&D don't know how to write, their dialogues are, so, bad.
The thing I still find hilarious about the whole ‘avoid expectation’ thing is that they are so desperate to be unpredictable and yet they still wasted everyone’s fucking time with Cleganebowl
Yeah, subverting expectations by employing lots of fan service is exactly the sort of thing that sounds like a good idea to a guy who thinks theme is for eighth-grade book reports.
Themes are not for eighth grade book reports. Themes are the underlying moral message of the work. Without a consistent theme underpinning it, your story isn't actually saying anything.
For example: the ending of Game of Thrones.
I mean not all stories need themes, but the majority benefit from having at least one.
(I agree with your point overall)
@Erika B
I might argue that all stories have some level of a theme, whether the author intends it or not. Maybe it's something as basic as "everything is chaos and nothing happens for a reason," but there's unavoidably going to be some point to the story. After all, that's why people engage with it in the first place: to try and understand some element of how things are or how they ought to be.
Eyes of the Cervino good point :0
A unifying theme or message makes the story more coherent and predictable. Can't let that happen. :D
@@frownyclowny6955 how could a story ever be good without themes... is it even a story without themes? I'm not even sure its possible to write without themes, they are always there, but they can be poorly integrated into story, or be inconsistent.
Oh man. That footage of the cast at the table read of the finale is the most perfect embodiment of _"Everyone disliked that"_ I've ever seen.
That had me dying. Literally everyone in the room knew that these two wingnuts couldn't write a fifth grade book report - let alone an eighth grade one - and were just pulling crap out of their ass for the finale.
I feel so sorry for them
Seeing the way Conleth Hill (Varys) distastefully (literally moves his mouth like he has a bad taste) places the script down on the table and sits back with his arms folded made me feel vindicated, somewhat.
That would have been heart-breaking. It's not just your favourite character dying, or your favourite character being shat upon, it's something _you made_. This is _your_ art, this is what you've dedicated your life to. This is their craft and it's so disrespectful to treat what they've given their time and effort and love towards so thoughtlessly. It's just.... cruel.
@@Talisguy that´s hollywood for you
3:35 The Boo Boo the Fool painting is interesting to me in this context because it's a painting of Stańczyk, the legendary Polish court jester who was famously the only person in the Polish court who actually kept tabs on what was happening in the crumbling empire and in this very painting is portrayed sulking over a report of a lost battle while others are having a literal ball.
There is a metaphor about the people who read the books and saw all of this shitstorm coming in around season 5 somewhere, in there.
Eh, Game of Thrones as a whole went down after the *4th book* in my opinion. It's no longer this great, masterpiece of an Epic people say it still is *(shrug)*
Do the books get bad
@@tonymarshall3978 no some people don't like that the fourth focused on different perspectives bit the books are still solid although who knows if they'll ever actually all come out
Also, the use of "adding to that deluge" in 0:41.
The Deluge, of course, is also the name of the book of Henryk Sienkiewicz about the mentioned crumbling Empire.
Maybe that's a metaphor about how, people who have read longer bookseries could have foreseen the problems with the later books. Or not.
Season 5 was 60% okay.
Season 6 wasnt terrible but not okay.
Season 7 is where the real damage can be seen.
When I heard that Zack Snyder does not care for comics, but he liked Watchmen because it was the equivalent of 'Hot Fantasy that F*cks', alarms bell rang louder than ever before the realization of "They gave this guy Superman" properly sank in.
Imagine if the DCEU wasn’t a clusterfuck
The funniest thing about them changing the ending because Ben's figured it out is that the main reason George Martin chose them specifically to make the show was because they were able to guess Jon Snow's parents before it became a common theory
Literally the only reason Bran is King is because nobody wanted him to be. Think about that for two minutes and tell me it doesn't make you want to go walk into the ocean.
Ellen S i didn’t need two minutes dude it only took the time it took to read your comment. 1 second
my feet are wet
Bran becoming king wasn't the issue; it was how he got there that makes it so stupid
Ellen S
By that reasoning, Joffrey was a master of diplomacy.
I wanted him to be a king
You know why fans worked it out? Because they picked up on the hints and foreshadowing written into the show. It means your writing is consistent if they can feasibly guess it. Deciding to suddenly change the ending because they pieced together your writing, means you render that writing inconsistent and worthless.
This^
I'm a hobby writer and when one or two of my reviewers message me with things they have correctly worked out, it freakin' makes my day! Means this torture that I do every day is coming together and actually makes sense and my foreshadowing is working!
Just because people figured it out does not mean it's not good.
What did they change about the ending?
Fans predicted it before the shows were out. 6 years ago I had discussions of, “Jon must be the child of ned’s sister and a Targaryen” as well as, “I bet Danny goes mad like the mad king... all this power and murder and invading with foreign armies doesn’t paint a good picture for her prospects”
The issue isn't that Dany went mad, it's that until like s08 ep. 3 one of her defining characteristics was compassion for the common folk. Going back on that because "subverting expectations" is terrible writing. Similarly, making a huge deal of prophecy/power, the Lord of light resurrecting Jon, and Jon's Targaryan heritage just for Arya to kill the night king and the heritage to never be mentioned again makes no sense and you have to do a number of mental backflips to make it work in the context of everything else you've written for that character.
I know old comment, but there's a single youtuber called altshiftx with what, 400+ hours of got analysis
Thats one guy
Someone will guess something right even if its by accident, it pure probability
36:38 Arya's trip to Kings Landing turns out to be a complete waste of time because all it takes to persuade Arya to NOT kill Cersei is a speech from the Hound about how, "you don't want to become a killer like me." And I'm thinking, "Dude. At this point, Arya has killed HUNDREDS of people. She probably has a higher body count than YOU."
Far higher and far more methodical too
Cersei lying about sending help to the North is hilariously in-character for her and it's the last time she really feels like Cersei.
I feel like cersei maintains her characterization much better/longer than most others, because from the start she was a character who thought she was really smart/conniving, but really wasnt. And near the end of the series all the characters starting feeling like that 😅
"Who has a better story than Bran the Broken..." Literally every single character in the entire setting...
Yeah, even Samwell "The Slayer" Tarly has a better story...
@@syltrid That inkeeper who kept insisting they had no rooms at the Crossroad Inn had a better story than Bran.
I would watch an entire series about Potpie before I'd watch another episode about Bran
I kept forgetting he was a character. I literally sat there thinking “wait, who?”
@@syltrid Honestly, something that bothered me about Samwell Tarly. So at the end of the series, he's the Grand Maester in King's Landing, Lord of House Tarly (?), AND married to Gilly. Is he also still technically part of the Night's Watch? Which of these things is he or is he not? is he all of these? If so, how? How is half these things should make it impossible to be half the other things? Does Samwell just get to break all the rules?
They turned their sweet, empathic disabled character into an emotionless droid because they were too goddamn lazy to write him. And then they have the gall, at the end, to say he has ~the best story~ for points. Idiots.
I don't mind Bran the boy "dying" to become the new 3 eyed raven... but I sure do mind the entire point of GoT somehow being that he should be kind "because he has the best story." That's ridiculous! Unless Bran was the lord of light and mastermoved every one of these things into place there is absolutely no way the story was leading to him being the king over John or Dany. That "he has the best story" schlock absolutely feels like something an author would think is poignant and cool. But it is not at ALL what the story had been leading up to and feels like a cheap copout.
bran was literally MIA for a whole season 😭
Friendly ask not to use the phrase "wheelchair-bound" unless someone is literally physically tied to a wheelchair, please. It has some bad connotations, if you think about it.
"Wheelchair-user" or "wheelchair-using" is preferred.
@@scharb I'm addicted to using wheelchair and I can't stop.
carlotta4th The point is (and it would parallel with some of GRRM’s other writing about hive minds attempting to exert control) that Bran really *was* dead, and was the 3ER now. Innocent Bran was gone, and a powerful being that *was* able to orchestrate events (consider all of the little conversations that Bran initiated or was present for in S8) in order to become king. Bran kept telling people he wasn’t Bran anymore, and no one believed him. When he was the offered the kingdom, he said, “Why do you think that I came all this way?” and people didn’t get that he said that because he KNEW he was to be made king. Bran wasn’t king because he was a good, innocent boy, he was king because he had been overtaken by Bloodraven, and willing to let a lot of people die because of his machinations. It was evil. And it was also more interesting. It illustrates another way that D&D fail with storytelling... The character was telling his truth, but there was never any confirmation of how amoral Bran truly was, right down to how he was explained by Tyrion and the show runners themselves. Either they didn’t get it, or wanted a different ending. They failed to portray Daenerys and her repeated betrayals, heartbreaking losses, and alienation in a way that made sense. Bran played her, and played people against her. Bran played Jon Snow, and his siblings. How much better of a story would it have been if the last three seasons had allowed a build up of these elements? But then, more seasons would probably have been required. Dan and David had a Star Wars project to get on with and ruin.
Wait! They lost that project. Maybe the developer was a Game of Thrones fan.
"Charles Dance is the real power behind the throne and the best character in television history"
It's not an opinion, it's a fact!
And he would have succeeded, too, if it wasn't for his meddling kids!
@@ProjectPaladin Ok I spent *way* to long laughing at that 😂
I feel so bad for GRR Martin... He really trusted them with his baby and the moment they got bored they shook it really hard in front of his eyes
😂 horrible image but basically true
"Themes are for eighth grade book reports" makes me want to punch walls. What an asinine thing to say.
Same. Can't believe that was said back in 2011, and I'm only hearing about it now. Wouldn't have STOPPED watching the show, but it probably would've tempered my expectations much earlier on...
Yeah, every show and book has themes. Prove your claim, jackass, try writing fantasy without "themes".
When I saw that I thought it was a joke, not a real quote. Wow
Those are the words of someone who stood in the shoulders of a giant, and thought themselves as a giant.
Kyle, is that you?
_"sometimes you've got some feelings and you just got to monetize them"_
-- will be printed on every CZcamsr's shirts
OH MY F**KING GOD Alia Ris - I would SO buy that! 😂
Love the way you and Philosophy Tube quoted the exact same line save for the spelling (monetise vs monetize)
Every artist
this whole "smarter than the audience" thing needs to stop. it's no fun theorizing about a show when you know the writers are looking at fan threads and taking notes on what they now will definitely not be doing. like, the fun thing about the Steven Universe fandom was the wild mass guessing, throwing out contradictory ideas, and seeing which ones were right-- and then going back and finding all the clues you missed!
It's amazing how completely GOT has vanished from every day live, considering it was literally everywhere in the media before season 8.
Well it did end, in all fairness. not much left to talk about.
@@noahmay7708 Except to make comparisons to other shows/movies that f**ed up their endings.
“I will not be queen of the ashes”
*Curb your enthusiasm theme intensifies*
she is not a good cricketer
*always sunny title theme*
Whats the matter consumer? Are your expectations not subverted? This has been reported to the screenwriters guild.
ARRESTED DEVELOPER NARRATOR: She would.
"Sometimes you you've got some feelings and you just gotta monetize them."
I lol'ed.
I think that's my favorite line in any of her videos
I came down here because I knew this was gonna be a much-liked comment already lol
Agreed I also L O L ed
I did laugh at that line. Then I checked how long the video was and how much of my life she had already wasted, and I stopped watching. I mean with a summary like that, I don't exactly feel bad for skipping the video.
@@dudemcfurgusson7179 That's my favorite line in any CZcams video, period.
If you write your series with "the butler did it" in mind and then a reader figures out that the butler did it, you've written a good mystery and the reader has understood your book
Yes indeed😮
Isn't that something George said himself lmao
@@blondebimbowannabe 38:54
He says the butler thing in this very speech. It’s a bit different, but the overall message is still the same
Just to summarize the problem with subverting expectations in the last season:
Jamie: Spends 70.5 episodes learning his sister is crazy and he wants to support the people, be different. 1.5 episodes completely reverting and dying pointlessly for her.
Tyrion: 50-60 episodes being actually clever and makes promises he will do that for Dany. Doesn't do so for the next 20 episodes.
Bran: Spends 60 episodes supposedly learning about his powers and becoming the 3 Eyed Raven. Wargs 1 time during the battle at Winterfell, then becomes king. but he could "NeVEr bE LorD of ANyThInG, he's the 3 eYeD RAveN." He just sits and stares at people, he doesn't contribute at all.
Dany: Spends 70.5 episodes being a champion of the people. 2 episodes going full mad queen.
Jon: 69 episodes building up to becoming King in the North, the One That was Promised, and Aegon Targaryen. In 4 episodes, proceeds to not kill the Night King, become King of the Seven Kingdoms, or die, and simply ends by being banished back north, where he was in the first place. He literally has no interesting dialogue or character for the last two seasons.
Arya: Spends 61 episodes learning to be a badass killer, then kills the Night King when it wasn't in her arc. Doesn't use any faces for the last 12 episodes, doesn't have properly written dialogue, etc. From the beginning, she never wanted to be a lady, but maybe her arc was learning to love and be a lady. Maybe her arc would be complete by crossing her last name, Cersei, off of her list. But no, neither.
Maybe these were the conclusions GRRM intended (I doubt Bran's and Arya's though), but the sheer disparity in time committed in one direction and time wasted ruining the characters in the last 2 seasons shows how the writers lacked the forethought to make it happen. And those were MAIN characters. like CENTRAL. countless others were cast aside, but if the writers had at least gotten this correct the show would be praised to this day. Instead, it's like it never happened. If the writers wanted these conclusions, it would have taken a full 10 episodes for S7, S8, and probably S9.
Great points
Yes😮😮😮😮
Actually thinking about it now, changing a twist because reddit found out about it can even be cruel.
Its like if your kid found out where you hid the christmas presents and then on christmas day you surprise them by giving a cheap last minute gift.
It dosen't make you smarter than your kid it just makes you a bad parent.
I'd say its more like if your kid found where you hide the Easter eggs, then when he brought them to you, you spiked it on the ground and gave him some shitty melted chocolate they can't even eat.
@@jonmcinturff7003 to be fair you can eat melted chocolate, its just not a good experience. just like the GoT finale! heyo
@@OverlyPositiveFanboy yeah I like it a bit melted. If its too hard Its pretty weird to me.
Perfect analogies!
Loved that analogy.
Changing your story because a fan guessed the outcome is idiotic
Like George RR Martin said
Guessed is one thing. But if a fan figured it out because of the hints and breadcrumbs you left in your well thought out story it means you were doing a good job. Stick to it.
This trend is textbook stupid. If fans were good storytellers, they wouldn't be fans, they would be writers.
Paraphrasing Tim Minchin: do you know how quality envolving fan fiction is called? Fiction.
@@fexbio Ehh, writers can be fans of other writers. Its not like they're ALL self absorbed narcissists.
While watching Good Omens, I could predict a TON of the things that would happen. Does that mean the show is bad? Fuck no. It just means that my years of watching fiction have prepared me to be more aware of how stories work, so I can piece together clues that the writer has put there.
@@fexbio Lots of writers get inspired from other writers. In fact, most writers start out as fans of something. JRR Tolkien was a fan of the classics such as Beowulf, Shakespeare, etc. I get what you're saying, but the writers and fans analogy is... Not correct, I'm sorry to say.
You know, if they framed the Hound's killing of his brother as an act of Mercy rather than Revenge, I think it might have worked well with his ark.
Just a thought.
Damn. I love that idea.
They should have just done what the books did and have the Hound die so Sandor can just live on as a crippled gravedigger.
i just still find it so ironic that D&D tried to subvert fan theories when the alleged reason they were allowed to adapt the series was because they correctly guessed jon snow’s true lineage.
so apparently the plot twists that d&d were “wise enough” to figure out were the only ones worth not “subverting.”
"themes are for eighth book reports" -
- guess we should have got an eighth grader to write the finale
Maybe D&D, Abrams, and Rian Johnson should go back to eighth grade and do film school all over again, particularly with creative writing and script writing courses.
@@HOTD108_ themes are present in literally every thing, just need to be done well
@@GAdmThrawn Rian Johnson actually is exactly the reverse of D&D, the guy didn't subvert expectations "just cause", the characters always act in a coherent way it's just that he put before them obstacles that given the way they are at that point in the story are difficult for them to deal with (ye know, like discovering the big bad is actually your dead dad you wanted to avenge or having your new boyfriend you finally opened up to after years of sexually charged bickering frozen and handed to the empire by one of his supposed best friends).
Johnson asked himself what would make Luke go to an island in seclusion when there's his dark side addled nephew brandishing his lightsaber at any poor schmuck who looked at him funny? And that was the answer, it was never gonna be a pleasant one, Star Wars is also myth and tragedy not just fun and games and if there's a thing in tragedy is that tragic heroes may slip up at exactly the wrong moment (bonus points if a vision or prophecy is involved) and personally I fucking loved it. There's a them in that movie of things going wrong and making mistakes, and learning from them, be either the wrong or right thing. The good guys learn the right thing even if they stumble like Luke, Poe, Finn and Rey did, the bad guys like Kylo Ren don't and and persevere in taking away the wrong lesson from their mistakes and those of the others.
@@HOTD108_ he soaked it in themes. Contradictory themes. He was trying to say "something", he just had no idea what it was. (see: Wisecrack video on the topic, "The Last Jedi: What Went Wrong?" and like the million other critiques on CZcams)
Trey Chambers The Wisecrack crew completely missed that you were supposed to think the bad guy(Kylo) is wrong and that there actually are good things from the past, see the clean cut “legend” of Luke Skywalker distracting the enemy army while the real unkempt Skywalker died alone on a rock
Seeing a quote from so-called 'writers' saying that themes are only for homework in school is deeply upsetting. That's like hearing a so-called doctor go 'Pff, a sterile operation room is not that important! We'll be fine!'
I know writers who use subtext and they are all cowards
10/10 analogy
Structure and story development is what you learn in Screenplay 101 lol. None of that was cohesive or existent for a while in the show. "Writers" indeed.
Oof it gets worse. I saw someone post and interview of Benioff after a novel release say they he valued style over substance, and always struggled with 'story' because his favorite authors were more style than story (he cites Hemingway, while also admitting he missed the careful story of those books.) So yeah basically he literally doesnt understand story. I'd link the video but I'm on mobile
He also admitted to being a compulsive liar.
It's just such a misguided, "edgy" thing to say -- like you honestly think you're better than having themes in your writing? What you write conveys messages no matter what; that's how storytelling works. Embrace it or don't, but don't deny that this is the fundamental nature of stories.
I will forever hate the phrase "subvert expectations"
Love how Lindsey summed up a 900 page book (clash of kings) in 10 seconds
“You two seriously rode thousands of miles together and haven’t discussed this yet?”
Hey, when u fast travel there’s no time to talk 😉
Talking makes me thirsty
Maybe they were just burning pewter for hours and couldn't talk lest they bite their tongues off
Isn't that what the loading screen during fast travel is for? 😜
“HOT FANTASY THAT FUCKS”
RIP monetized feelings
I love fantasies that fuck as well as fucking my way through a few fantasies.
Isn't that the genre of book covers which Fabio posed for?
That first Bobby B turn down for what was so unexpected it brought ridiculous joy lmao
I've watched this many, many times over the last few years, but the actors going through the five stages of grief at the table read gets me every time. Bless them.
I don't understand the fascination with trying to outsmart the audience. I keep thinking back to your video on spoilers! For example, I was on the edge of my seat during the finale of Chernobyl. I know they don't stop it - but I couldn't help myself from hoping they would! It's about how you tell the journey
Because writers don't want to be accused of being predictable. You can design a story so that knowing the resolution ahead of time doesn't really matter. But for example, Ned Stark's death and the Red Wedding are famous TV movies because they shocked the hell out of people. During the white walker invasion of Winterfell, we knew which characters were expendable to the point where a several mainstays like Theon and Jorah and fan favorites could like Lyanna could go down and it could be remembered as bloodless
chernobyl whips
Well, if you're a smart writer you're happy because it means you've got a smart audience. If you're a dumb writer, you get angry, because your audience is smarter than you.
... They stop the accident in the mini-series, don't they? Gotta subvert those expectations yo.
Idk about others, but there's a difference between assuming it won't work and knowing it won't. It can kill it somewhat for me.
"The ending was foreshadowed..."
Me: 🤨
"...by other things being bad."
Me: 😔
😔
😔
😔
Every time Bobby B is mentioned I can’t help but smile.
Why are Lindsey Ellis's videos comfort videos to me ? Am I the only crazy one here rewatching for the 10th time ? ANYBODY ELSE ?
This is how I'm spending New Year's Eve
I play her videos to fall asleep
@@nath7557was it a good new years?
@@beckyginger3432 yes, it was amazing. Never dragging myself to some lame party again, this is much better.
Not by a long shot bud 💜
Oh boi it’s a two parter, my expectations have been subverted!
I'm hoping for more Olenna Tyrell appreciation! If not in the video then in the comments. My absolute favorite character, hands down- scenes with her and Tywin/her and Jaime are GOLD
...and I'm spoiled. This is so meta, I can't
Wrong your expectation has been exceeded.
Imagine if Maisie Williams hadn't been available for filming so instead of the cumulative hours spent in Braavos, spread over years of broadcasting, we just got a title card at the beginning of Season 7 that said "Arya goes to ninja school, decides it isn't for her, and leaves."
It's funny how in the book she can never truly become a Faceless Man because loyalty is at the core of her character and she's spent almost 2 books trying to find her way home, so she can never give that up, and yet the signs of her warging ability - also a part of her Starkness - are becoming stronger all the time, so it's sad DnD just make her a ninja and ignore the rest.
@@Ash-ow5yc All of the stark kids in the books have the ability to Warg, just some are better at it than others. With Arya and Bran being the two strongest.
@@Ash-ow5yc It's implied that the Starks became the rulers of the north because they are powerful wargs, but this has been forgotten in universe. After Daenerys hatched her three dragons magic started coming back to the world.
One of many sub-plots the show left out.
Jon, Bran and Arya are all wargs, although only Bran and Jon can conscously control it because they learned (about) it from wildlings.
There's a pack of around a hundred wolves led by a huge she wolf (Arya's direwolf Nymeria) roaming the Riverlands and sometimes killing Frey soldiers.
One of many sub-plots the show dropped.
Arya sometime dreams that she's a wolf and leads a huge pack, but she's not aware that she's inhabiting Nymeria's body at the time and thinks she's just dreaming.
Sansa hasn't shown any abilities as of book 5 , probably because her direwolf was killed before magic came back.
I like that Nymeria got a cameo right alongside Ed Sheeran only to fuck off and not be at all relevant. It was just a quick "Yup, I'm still alive, have fun with the finale you fucks"
you'll have to change your youtube username to your given first and last name, dude to the 2020 census. Thank you.
Season eight: a horrible breakup with your college sweetheart you thought you would marry, but were too blind to see was a loser all along
Wrong. For four seasons, it was a winner.
I recently learned that the Sopranos ending isn’t really ambiguous
If you watch the whole episode, every time someone walks in the door, it cuts to Tony’s POV looking at the person coming into the restaurant. By cutting to black and cutting off the music just as his daughter walks in, it’s cutting to Tony’s POV - dead without even knowing it, without seeing it coming, without even knowing who did it. That’s the end Tony’s life was always leading him towards.
nice
i haven't even watched Sopranos but I knew how it ended so I'm glad to know this. At least he died quickly
Ned Stark discovering Mendelian genetics will always be my favorite plot point
Mcmos9000 that’s where tony got his wits
and the most scientific plot as well.
Lol
I love him needing the book to think about the hair color of two people he's known for their entire lives.
@@frankrizzo9678 still, Ned was more observant then most of the characters in the show. It would be like being the first in that world to figure out that you do not fall over the edge when you pass over the horizon (I think in the show, they said something like the world is inside the eye of a giant or some fantasy non sense)
The whole "I can't let fan's guess my twist" fear feels like an ego thing. Like it's so important for them to be the smartest ones here. Why not just let some fans have their "Whoo! I called it!" moment! The best comparison to this season I've heard so far is that the writing essentially became the Iocane powder scene from a princess bride with the writers essentially going, "But you see I knew that you knew that I knew that you that I'd never fall for that old trick!"
It's hard because the nature of the mass proliferation of information on the internet makes it so anyone exposed to information that reveals the twist will feel like they were the ones who predicted it. What might otherwise be a small group of dedicated and intelligent fans feeling satisfied turns into the general audience feeling like the material was juvenile and predictable, because *everyone* guessed it, not just the few who actually did and told everyone else.
And it makes for things to be actually....really stupid. I don't even watch this show and I'm here because I wanted to know Why everyone is complaining that it's terrible.
Agreed. This is why it felt like the characters and plotlines had to zig-zag so much towards the end. It almost became a game of trying to throw you off the trail. "All of the foreshadowing and clues that were laid throughout the show? Psyche! They meant nothing and are never addressed again." "Other pieces of information like when Bran says 'I can never be Lord of anything'? Pysche! He can still be Ruler of the Seven (Six) Kingdoms!" It's just not good storytelling and not a convincing way to convey information or resolve the story lines. It became obvious that their priorities were wrapped up in making these big shocking/twisting moments that Game of Thrones had become known for, even if they had to achieve those twists by straight up feeding you false information.
I had a terrible feeling that Season 8 would turn out this way whenever Littlefinger died in Season 7. You are shown several bits of conflicting information: Sansa stating that she knows Littlefinger isn't trustworthy but keeps him around anyway, she sends Brienne of Tarth away as some sort of confusing move to show that she isn't being fooled by Littlefinger, Arya spies on Sansa, Littlefinger spies on Arya and smirks - inferring that things are going according to his manipulative plan, Sansa and Arya fight, and lastly, it's specifically pointed out that Bran is not Bran and is acting so strange and has no desire to aid with his sisters' problems. Then, suddenly, all of the Starks are on the same side and wise to LIttlefinger's plan with 0 information on how they worked it out. Did they ask Bran for help and he cleared things up? Why were we shown that he is so distant and unwilling to help yet it's assumed he worked with them behind the scenes? Why were we shown that Littlefinger was successful in manipulating them and that the sisters were at each other's throats yet somehow behind the scenes they apparently worked things out without Littlefinger spying on them? None of these things were told in a satisfying manner and we were actually shown the opposite in many instances, never knowing quite whose perspective we were truly viewing things from. It was a twist for twist's sake. They needed a shocking moment for the S7 finale, so they fed us false information before killing him off. These things could have easily been clarified with an additional scene or two, but that would have ruined their "twist".
They got paranoid about this when they forewshadowed Jon Snow's resurrection harder than a Honkytonk Man guitar swing. They actually telegraphed it so hard that I was busy trying to figure out whom they were positioning Flame-Tits to revive towards the end of S4. It had to be someone, and Jon Snow was always the most likely, given his problems at the time with the rebellious Night's Watch.
So I predicted that Jon Snow would be resurrected before he was killed, which should tell you that the problem wasn't this event in itself, but how wildly obvious they made it that it was coming, with their various "establishing" scenes with Flame-Tits and Thoros. Particularly the scene where Flame-Tits arrived out of the blue in the Riverlands to learn that Thoros could resurrect people. Really? Hmm, that's so interesting, bye now! I'm off to resurrect Jon Snow and spout some more erroneous prophecies! Why was she there? How did she get there? Wasn't she on Dragonstone hypnotizing Mannis just a scene and a half ago? Can she just randomly leave him to go on camping trips in the middle of a giant war zone? Oh I see, it was exclusively to establish the "surprise" resurrection of Lord Emo a season later! How incredibly subtle and creative!
@@therisingdyingidiot8022 There is a big difference between surprising people and surprising everyone. If your script surprises everyone, chances are it is because it doesnt make much sense.
"Themes are for 8th grade book reports" said person who obviously dropped out after 7th grade.
... Years later, and deep deep inside me, I'm STILL angry about this.
On my death bed, I'll still feel strong contempt for how this shit ended.
I still don't understand how terrible a screen writer you have to be in order to make the terrible abomination that is the end of GoT.
They had SO MANY hours worth of reference material, R. R. Martin was available, HBO offered them unlimited amounts of money and time, the actors were good and dedicated, the fans would've waited years for quality...
Yet they still, they STILL drove it into a ditch, and for WHAT!?
It wasn't even solely because of incompetence, but because of their fucking ego and narcissism!
They could've passed it on to someone, ANYONE, who was dedicated enough to spend the time needed to end this show respectably. Even some random screen writing enthusiast out of r/Gameofthrones would've done better.
This still fills me with an irrational amount of indescribable disappointment.
The reading table scene just solidifies the disappointment, cringe and embarrassment.
Honestly, I would've been less angry and disappointed had it just been cancelled... If they just cut to black.
I'll forever curse Weiss and Benioff!!
They did the show purely so they could eventually get support for their ideologically driven show about the Confederacy.
@@valuebrandmelkor5973 which never got off the ground for some strange reason. 😏🍷
You were six years late for the Hobbit conversation - it was still the most interesting critical examination of why that production was broken...
For you, Lindsay, I'll wait... It's always worth it.
I waited a long time for an Ellis video and all the content I got in the interim is her twitter political rants
Really, I think we SHOULD take time to digest a media we've just finished watching before we write a worthwhile hot take about it, so we can have a chance to let it sink in, and also to research how it was made, since more details will likely come out after something has been released.
@@undolf4097 Sounds like I have to check out her social media presence.
what bothers me is like....the dothraki were ALL daenerys's bloodriders, which means they would avenge her death, and then join her in death....but at the end you see some of them just wandering about....where's the bloodlust? none of them even TRY to kill jon
Bronn is the Lord of the Reach? Tyrion seriously upheld that cutthroat deal made at gunpoint? And why is he also the Master of Coin when he doesn't know what a loan is? Especially when the crown has a seriously loan problem?
@@elevate07 I thought it was some kind of skit or parody instead of the actual show
Jot this down on the long list of things D+D "kinda forgot".
Daenerys killed the khals and none of the dothraki avenged them. Am I supposed to believe they had no brothers, cousins, sons, wives, or friends? That is a bigger problem..
@@elevate07 What annoys me about the Reach thing is that the Twins were right there for the taking with all the Frey's dead.
I’ve never seen the sopranos before
When I first heard how it ended, all I said was “wow, I need to watch this show”
That ending is genius - life goes on in a simple act of subverting the audience into expecting something big
Instead: they get a dose of reality
I was really mad at how Shae did a 180 and suddenly she's an absolute idiot that betrays Tyrion...because Tyrion tried to \send her away....TO PROTECT HER. And then the writers decided she would be so mad and feel betrayed that she'd try to get him killed and fuck his dad. It just didn't make sense given she was always portrayed as pretty empathetic and fairly intelligent.
This is an OLD comment, but in reality shae in the books IS very dumb. And Shae on the show is depicted as just as dumb. She does not understand subtext and implication. This was shown on the show many different times. There was no 180 if you were realizing how dumb she was from the beginning.
The way I took it reading the book is that Shae did love Tyrion on some level, but she was 19 and not willing to be tortured to death by Cersei just so save him. Then fucking Tywin isn’t much a choice. He’s Tywin Lannister. She can either resist and get killed or accept him. She was common born and really had no choice. I haven’t seen the show though, so maybe she’s portrayed as more of an agent in the show.
@@iansmith1916 personally I read her as vapid and not truly in love, in a deep sense, in the books. In the show she's older and the love seems much more genuine so I can kind of see the bitterness.
In the books it made sense for a sex worker who's just trying to find a safe patron to "switch" easily from Tyrion to Tywin. In the show it makes somewhat less sense as she seems to have much more agency. It's not implied that Tywin pressured her although I suppose we won't ever know how he is with women. He made a big show of disdain for prostitutes but then happily made use of the services of the one who was so recently having sex with his son so who knows.
I remember when I heard so much about how passionate Conleth Hill was about the show, how he would help the younger actors and how much he put into the show overall. Legitimately seeing him fold up the script and push it away just gives me life.
It breaks my heart a little bit. Conleth and the other actors, and the people who worked on set and behind the scenes all tried so so hard. They gave it their all and they did an amazing job. But to see them completely let down by writers who don't care at all is a tragedy.
Can you imagine if Conleth got the part he auditioned for and was Bobby B, then gone from the show before the first season was done?
And when he just shakes his head later, it was beautiful
Absolutely, but to me it is also depressing to think about actors who hav eno choice but to play lines they do not believe in to the best of their ability and blatantly lie about how brilliant they think they are. Thouhg, to be fair, that is true of so many jobs.
If people predict something that might happen in a later book/season etc. ...THAT ISN'T A BAD THING! Good writing requires setting up things and if you set something up and some fans guess it, then let them!
I have a rule for mystery novels, if the reader doesn't have enough info to solve the crime themselves by the time the big reveal happens, it's poorly written.
@Dave Pearson Yeah, I was gonna say... laws of probability dictate that every possible ending is probably going to be predicted by someone at some point. Except possibly the most stupid possible endings. Maybe if reddit people posted theories about stupid endings, we'd get better writing?
Right? Like even JK Rowling didn't back out from RAB being Regulus Black even though most fans immediately theorized this as soon as Half-Blood Prince was released.
Yep. If you've done proper foreshadowing, then it's inevitable that someone will figure out a twist. As long as "someone" isn't "everyone", it's fine.
this is what i ALWAYS say. i get annoyed when people say they saw some stuff coming cause I'm like... wow! congratulations! you have passable knowledge of planting and pay off! if you're even barely acquainted with story structure, you should be able to predict stuff. the problem is formulaic endings, which can be boring depending because you know where you're going since the start therefore there is no tension but depending on how they're set up they can be satisfying too so... whatever. it's just dumb.
The visible disgust and disappointment on the actors’ faces during the table read is really something for the ages.
Euron greyjoy in the books: a power hungry mad demi-god/demon
Euron greyjoy in the show: finga in da bum!
There's no time for that! There's no time for any of this!
I'm surprised Linsday didn't incorporate this line in her review.