How To Get Better At Fighting Games (Game Theory)
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- čas přidán 23. 06. 2024
- #fgc #gametheory #fightinggames
Fighting games are a unique form of competition, that don't work like many other games out there. It's all about making decisions and understanding what your opponent is trying to do. Luckily for us, Game Theory is about exactly this, and I think we can use that to our advantage. Whether your game is Street Fighter, Guilty Gear, or Tekken, or even Chess this is how you improve as a competitor in general, not just a player.
Follow Me on Twitter: / qmanchu1797
Timestamps:
00:00 - Intro
01:24 - Introducing Game Theory
02:24 - Interdependence
03:50 - Rybka and Chess Bots
06:57 - 3 Pillars of Interdependence
11:16 - Fighting Games Bring Out Humanity
13:06 - Conclusion
Sources:
Using Game Theory To Model Competition: www.jstor.org/stable/3151424?...
Why AI Chess Bots Are Virtually Unbeatable: • Why AI Chess Bots Are ... - Hry
Anime: Tsugumomo
Oh no you did not just discard Matpat like that!?! How could you! Great video though 👍
The timing of me producing this whole thing and him quitting could not have been better/worse lol
Yea Ive been studying game theory, philosophy, and quantum mechanics to get good at SF6. Wish I was joking
Report your findings so I can avoid doing the same please 😅
I second this
Also how about statistics?
quantum mechanics is actually just rollback netcode fuck
Gonna be honest with you that's a complete waste of time if you want to get good
* guy who effortlessly beats you 10-0 *
I'm just pressing buttons
6:03
“I’m the only player who plays neutral, nobody else plays neutral”, he says as he uses raw drive rush twice
The full clip is even better because he does not stop just because it keeps getting stuffed 😂.
Dope video! I actually was planning a similar video about game theory awhile back, and it’s super interesting to see your take since it totally differs from what I was going to do (I.e using game theory to get closer to solving the game vs you using it to explain benefits of irrationality).
Really cool to see
Thanks! Really cool to see you enjoyed
5:57
"Im the only one who plays neutral"
*DRIVE RUSHES TWICE IN A ROW*
I can’t believe Qmanchu killed Game Theory with this vid rip MatPat
Guys I'm so sorry I didn't know he'd just do that if I made fun of him. You gotta believe me
That's why Daigo is called *"the beast"*, and not "the supercomputer/robot"
there are various amounts of layers to fighting games more than probably any game genre
And keep doing your amazing work the fgc would be proud
This video actually enlightened me, I've been told so many times that I should "think less", and now watching this I put it together. Nice job.
Thanks! I'm really glad this message could get through. It's hard to put it into words but game theory was the perfect means to help define this abstract idea
It's kinda like flow.
In the game of mahjong there exists an idea known as "flow" which people have different ideas about but at its core is a sort of inherent intuition on what your ideal moves will be. Because the game has a randomness factor in the tile draw as well as a lot of variables with there being four players each with a discard pool, and each making their own decisions on how they want their hands to look and how they should play relative to the rest of the table's play styles, it's safe to say you can't mathematically solve the game - it's too complex and there is too much unknown information. Reading the flow is considered by some to be a level of odd superstition (some people meme it, some people think it's actually a real supernatural force) but personally I think it's just a sort of "game sense."
You can study mahjong in terms of how to read the tiles on the table, what your best discards will be, how to avoid dealing into other players - basically using statistics to maximize your victory chances - but this idea of "flow" will always exist no matter how much you try and solve the game with pure logic. You might choose a suboptimal single wait over a wait on 2 or even 3 tiles if it has a higher score or if you just feel like your opponent's habits gave you the impression they'll be more likely to deal into it, for instance.
This is what makes fighting games better than any genre, there’s always room for improvement and getting better.
Amen
"WHY IS HE SO SMART" I feel you bro.
Thta was really good, I love your editing
another absolutely amazing video, earlier this year i was trying to teach my friend fighting games and i used boxing to show what you did with chess. I am definitely going to show him this video in hopes he improves
Great video man, love you editing keep up the good work
I already used that clip of smiling friends expect to hear from my lawyers
Hbomberman was right noone is safe
😱
For anyone wondering what the anime is at the start it’s called Tsugumomo
Glad I came across this. I think about game theory often (outside of fighting games, even) it's nice to see others thinking about the same thing. I
Or not, because basic game theory helped me a lot on Tekken and it's gonna be less effective if others learn it, lol:
As an example: King has this chain grab where it's massive damage or minor damage depending on the path he takes, and it is just a guessing game, because once you're in the chain, there's no indication what he's going for.
With probably 99% consistency, if you have a lot of health, the King player will do the big damage path, but if the less damaging option will be enough to kill, they go for that instead, even on higher ranks. Because this is about as complex as tic-tac-toe, I always guess the correct break, but just have to think: "Man, if he even heard about game theory in passing, I'd have been dead now"
Amazing Video! You brought my struggles with a lot of games and not only fighting games on point. What a banger video.
Thanks a lot! I'm glad I could help. This is one of my favorites that I've made
Im glad my "do random shit sometimes" tech is legit
There's been a huge gap of A-Core type analysis and it seems like you're here to fill it
I'm trying my best to produce content that helps people or can teach them something new in the process. And all the while, I get to learn new stuff too. Core-A will always be the goat though lol
Gotta hop on some of the Drunken Fist style of fighting game play. Strive to be a Daigo that convinces the opponent you're Johnny Donuts.
This is an amazing video! In Mortal Kombat Sonicfox seems to have mastered those things.
I'm really glad you enjoyed and I agree. Sonic is a master of it in general. They play whoever they like and define metas around characters in games they don't even play. Really cool to watch a true master at work
great video, im startint to play GUILTY GEAR STRIVE and just started watching videos about fighting games. I love how you make research and use scientific concepts to explain the fighting games stuff, and make me see the complexity involved in this genre.
Appreciate the support!
3:19 I watched Hans Neimann go apeshit at getting swindled by Naroditsky at least a dozen times
Really awesome, interesting funny and well explained video. Really good effort on this video funny and interesting.
I really like the segments of how you explained al of this.
holy smokes this is a banger fighting game vid, so glad youtube starting to reccommend gems like this! looking forward to future videos dude :D
I'm glad you enjoyed! This is a bit of a different video for me so I'm glad it's going over well!
The daigo Perry was super rational. What he mean? It's the only option he had. He knew Justin wanted to super could chip. It was pair your bust. It was f****** incredibly insane for the time but you see us at high level all the time now
Punk is a great example of how modern fighting gamers just want to follow flow charts with the best "answers," and when he gets beaten, it's because the opponent didn't follow HIS fllow chart. And, to be fair, a lot of modern games are built to facilitate this now that so many options are plus on block so it limits defensive options and promotes specific "safe" aggression.
No wonder he hates PP.
Great video, keep it up gamer
love your vids and fighting games, especially mortal kombt
Many thanks! I'm not done doing MK content but I want to make sure it's unique enough to warrant it. If you haven't seen my MK and Brazil video, I highly recommend you do
That was awesome good job
I played against the same Ryu at 6:13 and all he did was jump, sweep, and drive impact. He rage quit on me, and I blocked him.
Glad to see his scrubbiness will be forever immortalized in this video 😂
5:15 JJBA fighter OST?
Perfect choice!
Qmanchu pickin up the mantle while CoreA is not uploading!
I was at my best in the Street Fighter Alpha 3 days. I had practiced in Mortal Kombat 1-3 Ultimate, Street Fighter 2 Championship Edition-Alpha 3. I had three characters I trained. Akuma was my overall character. This character has average defense and moderate offense. I trained Rose to punish jumping players and use their speed to my advantage to create quick moving openings. I trained Gen to combo in a very complex way. Gen had the best mix of punches and kicks which could be thrown into combos. They were also the hardest character to play.
Sick music selection
Not the diago versus woolie clip. Rip best friends play, they the reason I keep up with fighting games
You gotta learn the rules to learn how to break them
This. I think this goes over so many people's heads when they want to improve
11:25 Daigo defeats a notorious liar and pie thief for the greater good
Wow I totally forgot about that story
Hey could anyone tell me what music is play at 6:54? Great video by the way!
Cool video
Love the Jay Eazy clip
He's on to something. I dunno what it is but, he's got it
Interesting!
Game at 2:51 is checkmate showdown and it's exactly what it looks like (chess fighting game).
8:56 at least he warned you... *FLEE!*
I just wanna address the very end of the video very quickly, about irrationality and the Evo moment #37. I just wanna preface it, I'm no 3rd Strike player so I might be misremembering but,
Daigo parried Chun-Li's entire super which seems crazy, but if you think about it, considering he was quite literally 1HP it was pretty much the most rational decision he could make.
After all if he did not parry it, he would have died to chip damage, it was probably his only chance to win the round.
So is this still irrationality, or is it a perfectly calculated decision?
It doesn't take THAT much away from the moment, but it makes you wonder if it's really as crazy as it seems.
Oh no the moment is actually the only rational thing he could've done, you're right. But the point about it is more so that it's irrational to think it could be done, especially at the time. But he did what most would've called nearly impossible. That's the irrational part of it and what makes it so cool. He's not afraid to take the irrational ideas and implement them into his play
@@qmanchu This is quite literally the most rational answer. Perfect
It does take away from the thunder a little bit, but Daigo did do this in an earlier set as well against Ricky Ortiz. By searching for an alternate POV of this event, you can hear Floe (rest in peace) yell, "DON'T DO IT!" because Daigo has demonstrated that he in fact has this response in his tool belt. Perhaps if Justin Wong had this in mind at the time, he would've thought twice, but that's just needless speculation. Computers do take into account all information fed to it, and having information withheld from it is a layer of discussion not mentioned in this video.
Mind, this is STILL an incredibly difficult thing to do even if the defender knows it's coming, and it shows that Daigo isn't solely a paint-by-feel player; Daigo is in fact a very technical and practiced player who knows how to use every skill he has at his disposal. JWong is also an incredibly smart player who used all the information he had and made a safe and intelligent if still incorrect move in the heat of the moment.
Damn. The game theory joke hits different
I swear I wrote the joke before it happened
Jyobin is the master of this.
Great!
If this video spreads the lower ranks are about to get tougher lol. Great video man. Was that Danganronpa in the background?
Thanks for the love bro. And no Danganronpa in this one but honestly, I dunno how I've made so many videos at this point without it..music or clips
Nah, lower ranks still have the struggle of learning the rules, theory, and mechanical skill of the game before they can have the luxury of breaking the second. Until you get your character into muscle memeory, it's pretty hard to think about diverting from the figueative textbook in the heat of a round
@@Boss-_ Yea that explains a lot. I play random all the time and tend to beat people who are high rank but don't have the usual fight knowledge.
I doubt it. You actually need to know the why's to apply it.
Wake up babe new Qmanchu dropped
The naruto ultimate ninjastorm music fit so well
That touhou ending music? It's familiar, but i forgot the title. Could you tell me?
yo what’s that anime at the beginning that was so funny
I have never clicked on a CZcams notification so fast
Got it, more random DPs!
🫡 go forth soldier
@@qmanchu Jokes aside, great video!
XD
U was tryin 2 tell me q. Lol. Gotta explore all the options. Ill get better at it.
Lmao! I figured I'd just make a video about it and it would make more sense. Hope all is well
U 2 Q.
I swear this video is exactly how I explain how I play fighting games to my friends 😂
Is that an anime at the beginning? If so which one. That was hilarious.
Tsugumomo!
@@qmanchu thank you! great video, im really trying to improve in fighting games for UNI2 im so excited but nervous.
Wait remember that game theory animation. Who did that again?
That opening anime scene was hilarious, what’s it called lol
What a goated video
Many thanks!
That's exactly what "fighting" is. It is not to win, but to "give yourself out", or "your strength" that is. Fighting come down to an "attempt", not to take "fighting" as a "whole" being which is not. It is not to "predict", but to "give what you have already". That is why it come down to practice. An "analysis" without putting your hand to dwell in, it will not be anything concrete.
Human endeavor cannot be "scientifized" or compared to an artificial superiority.
You "adapt" and not "plan".
"Being" is, it's future, is unknown, and no amount of prediction can take hold of the world, as if you want to take full power of it.
Understanding that human is contingent and powerless, and understanding that it is a strength of it's own, that's what "fighting" is. It's an art. No amount of scientification or optimization will bring any authentic truth.
Before I watch any further and forget; what's that anime in the introduction? Is that fighting game related? So far the only relevant show I've seen has been Hi-Score Girl, and I want more FGC-nime. :-P
It's not FG related like those ones, no. Tsugumomo is the name
Yomi hustle is all about that sort of decision making hell it's in the name
Granted it's turn based so theres less on the spot preasure while playing
I made a video about turn based fighting games a few months back! If you're interested, I recommend checking it out. It explores that game specifically
@@qmanchu Yooo i gotta find it
What's the name of the anime in the beginning?
Woolie catching strays lool 11:21
I'd learned about this clip way back when it happened but only watched the full match for first time recently. I cannot believe he let this happen to him
great vid! whats the anime called though?
The one at the beginning is Tsugumomo. The one later on is One Punch Man.
@@qmanchu ty
Diago Umehara has, and always will be, the one and only player i completely aspire to be like. He is tremendously skilled and has shown to be able to pull of mechanically crazy stuff, but he plays nothing like a machine and i respect that so much of him.
I remember i watched a video of someone talking about combos, and how if you don't do the best optimal damage combo you are just playing bad. i heavily disagree. Combos, like neutral or any other part of the game can be an instrument of expression and almost anything can give some sort of competitive edge if saw through the right way.
jayeazy the goat
What anime is playing at the beginning? 0:20
tsugu tsugumomo
The chess game is an example of how dependent computers actually are on humanity. Just like chatgpt when asked for code will simply steal from stack overflow, computers can't extrapolate, not really.
Speaking of fighting games tekken 8 has a mode where ai will create a ghost that learns from you and takes on your tendencies. I did this and i recognized myself. The thing is, i can also teach it to do stupid things and like hikaru did, get it to make mistakes. A human of decent skill would punish such antics severely. AI isn't as fearsome as a lot of people think.
Big facts
What’s the anime at the start of the video?
First clip only happened he said because he tried to buffer the super but it came out anyways after his normal
Yupp. That's why this clip I think is perfect because Game Theory studies these moments where we wonder if it's a mistake, miscommunication, or on purpose lol
@1:35 And on the day he announced his departure from youtube. But, yeah.. forget that guy.😬
Been working on this video for 2 weeks. The timing couldn't have been more insane
Lmao that clip of Daigo mashing into Aegis Reflector 3 times into super is honestly peak. He had the health to take it so why not?
Switch back and forth between SF6, Alpha 2/3, and Super Turbo… only play 3S if you’re a Madman like me 😂
Game theory does actaully involve opponents using randomness when there are situations where choosing a single strategy can be exploited by the opponent. In mix up situations where both players have to guess what the other is going to do, the game theory optimal way to play is to randomize your actions based on the risk and reward of a situation.
Suppose you have an attacker who has the option to combo for 150 damage or grab for 50 and a defender who can only block or tech. the defender has to mix both blocking and teching, otherwise the attcker will always go for the option that wins always. The ratio the defender should block and tech is 150:50 or 3:1 which means the defender should block 75% and tech 25%.
From an intuitive standpoint, imagine the attacker only throws. The defender would get grabbed 3 times and then tech on the 4 attempt resulting in 150 damage. If the attacker only comboed, the defender would block 3 of the attacks and would then get hit on the 4th for 150 damage.
The logic for explaning how often the attacker should vary his attacks is a little bit more nuanced and complicated, but in this instance it is to combo and grab at a ratio opposite of the defender which means grabbing 75% of the time.
This is a very simple example and fighting games have much more complexity than this as you also have to factor in time, spacing, reaction times, potential reversals from the opponent, meter, and countless other mechanics which can't entirely be mathematically applied.
I'm considering going deeper into this concept later down the line but I wanted to see how people felt about the general idea first. The more I explored game theory, the more interesting "Fighting Game Theory" became
@@qmanchu theres this good book called the compleat strategyst which you can find online to get a really nice intro into game theory. There are a lot of unexplored parallels between gto poker and fighting games which I find interesting.
@@kylelo5986 I'll look into it this week! Thanks for letting me know
I like the way the story is framed, but if being irrational is advantageous, then it IS the rational thing to do. Game theory doesn't just mean you do the same thing every time, it's called a mixed strategy and it can still be optimal. I think of fighting game theory the same way I do when it comes to bluffs in poker game theory. There is a famous toy game where one player always has a king and the other has either an ace or a queen, with no reraises, pots and bets are 1 dollar. There is never a reason for the King player to bet because the other player either folds with worse hands or calls with better. The Ace/Queen player gets to bluff a portion of their queens, but it's the balance that is important.
Granted the computer waiting around still makes sense, in poker that's what the blinds are there for to prevent just waiting for pocket aces.
I think you're somewhat missing the point about what being irrational is because I showed many cases of me being the rational player, and punishing people for being irrational many times over. It isn't simply just "be irrational" and you win. It's about mixing them up based on the risk/reward of each scenario. I'm not sure what I said to make it seem so cut and dry, but the video itself shows you need both to be considered strong. And you can't bluff with irrationality unless there's some presumption of being rational too
7:22 do I even need to elaborate?
You shouldn't have to...
But it's Current Year so someone probably does...
Does anyone know the anime near the intro?
I'm boutta pin a comment that says because this is by far the most commented thing on this video lol
that's a good-ass video
I appreciate that big time friend
this video is fire good job
Tenkaichi 2 OST
Yes.
9 minutes into this wondering where tf the Tekken footage is 😭 did I miss it?
Almost 13 minutes in and for a couple seconds I’m about to start a riot
Hey it's daigo vs woolie
Man yelled fuck this shit and said nnananananananana run it back
Concon vs K9 is the reason we needed smash 4 lol
1:41 what is THAT?! Mobile or browser game??
Browser game. Evolution of Trust
@@qmanchu Thanks!
I’ll intentionally play random to throw people off. But equally, I hate when my opponent does something so random it’s dumb… and I get hit by it lmao
It's smart when I do it but dumb when they do it and there's no way to change my mind
@@qmanchu lolll agreed 😂
I like your videos, and I’m gonna finish watching this, but dawg, Justin Wong is THE GOAT is so many fighting games, he’s used to be a consistent top player, sometimes the best. He has built a career off playing “lame” taking very little risks, and and maximizing reward. His whole concept has always been play lame and win games. You can be very successful just by sticking to the basics, and playing heavy defense. Most people just down have the patience to play like that(even pros), and will take unnecessary risk if they have a good read. But robotic and “lame” players have been very successful in FGC history. Not saying this is a bad video, I just don’t agree fundamentally with the initial premise.
Daigo is a great player and there is a lot we can all learn off him, but I won’t call him the FGC goat, maybe the Street Fighter goat, but FGC over all I don’t think anyone other than Justin has it.
2 things here. Justin Wong is very lame in lots of games. But he's also extremely volatile in others. His most famous win is him going crazy in MvC2. There's a reason that moment stands out so much in his long career.
And 2nd point: his other most famous FGC moment is Evo moment 37 where he makes the rational decision to try to chip Daigo out. And yet, Daigo does the unthinkable and parries his ass, immortalizing Justin as the guy who got Daigo parried forever.
I agree with you that Daigo isnt the GOAT of Fighting Games, I actually just made a whole video about that. But nobody would call Justin robotic. Lame and robotic play aren't the same thing. When I say robotic I mean without emotion, and that's not Justin at all. I get where you're coming from in this comment but I really think you just misunderstand my point. Daigo plays lame as hell too at times. But playing lame only works this well when you're able to switch up the pace when your opponent least expects it and both these guys have that. Now that I think about it, Daigo lamed Justin out at Evo 2009 for SFIV. I know that playing lame is good but that isn't the point of this video. It's about being able to make the decision your opponent doesn't expect, and sometimes, yes, that is playing lame
I already play with that mindset, my problem is that I hate combos, I find every aspect of them boring, learning, performing or taking them.
That's why I only play with friends, because none of us lab.
Play samsho my friend. Goes on sale on steam all the time and has rollback now.
@@qmanchu I should, I only dipped my toes in it.
I usually play Tekken or Soul Calibur and even got a lot of wins in T7 online without combos because everyone was trying too hard to go for combo starters.
This is my strategy: frustrate your opponent. Stall, spam cheap moves, do something irrational. Hell even mash a couple of buttons. Throw them off balance. Your opponent has a rigid way of fighting. Get them flustered and then once and a while punish them with a combo, then go back to trolling them.
Get in their head. Its anothwr person and their greatest enemy is thwmselves.
So in short...
It's all about grinding?
1:16
It ..
Won't...
Kill me...
CHECK THIS?!
What's that anime 0:06
Goodbye Matt Patt T^T
So what you’re saying is…. I need to just walk up slowly…. And downsmash?
Thats smth i always thought of myself. Wenn good players say "they only won bc they did random shit" i never thought it was a viable critic. Being unpredictible seems "optimal" to me.
Players who only *think* they're good (or at the very least better than they are) say that. I've seen some pretty trash players rage about "he's so random" when losing, even if the other guy played pretty textbook. It often (not always) means "I got hit, and I think I'm better than this guy, so it only worked because he must be stupid. My ego is now safe"
@@Boss-_ Punk says that all the time tho
Fighting games ARE* a logical endeavor
intro anime name?