another good conversation is when some truly bullshit stuff happens, and you both just pause your shit talk for a straight 2 seconds. then the match continues while you both laugh your ass off in confusion.
That point about reacting differently to the same quirky interaction online compared to in-person is so good cause as soon as you brought it up I had like an Anton Ego Ratatouille flashback to every time I've done exactly that
That's such an interesting point you made about the unpredictability of fighting games in comparison to other hobbies. Behavioural psychology proved long ago that the best way to guarantee repeated behavior, is to make the intervals between desired outcomes completely random and unpredictable. This explains so much as to why people complain about fighting games, yet can't seem to stop playing, it's the same type of behavior seen with people that are addicted to slots... You just prompted me to realize the correlation 😅
That's any competitive matchmaking. Especially once these games introduce "secret mechanics" that place you against an opponent that is stronger to break your winstreak or gives you weak teammates to help your opponent win to give him a dopamine rush so he continues pressing the "find game" button. So you are always on the edge, hoping that maybe this next game will bring you to a promotion. Playing competitive games for ranks is pretty much the same as going to a casino.
@@helgenlane For sure, but that goes without saying. Fighting games are the more extreme example, due to their many variables such as numerous chars and varied MU knowledge. This was my initial point; they are much, much more random than most activities. If I'm good at COD Team Deathmatch, I can control how my match will go 90% of the time, my knowledge of ranking up is also relatively known. BR would be slightly more random, but again, nothing at all close in comparison to say, Tekken 7.
This is 100% true, there are countless times where I would exit an online set thinking that my opponent and I had a mutual enjoyable experience, maybe even with a mostly even set count, then I just get hit with a huge wave of angry messages about my play. In person, you can tell when someone is making risky plays for fun or out of frustration. Online, you can't. The online experience compared to locals really is night and day. I hope that a lot of these online-only newcomers don't bring that vitriol with them to in-person events.
It's weird, but when I lurk in my battle lounge in SFV, the people who want the rematch over and over again aren't the close matches, almost ever. When I absolutely WASH someone over and over, there tends to be a message of "good game" and "thanks for the match" followed by a friend request, and that player showing up more times for a thrashing. Some of these guys DEFINITELY were doing it to learn off me. One of them now beats my ass 60% of the time! But yeah, you really can't tell what people are thinking. One guy I thought we were having a great time. ALL the matches were down to the wire, and I was using every single thing I'd ever learned just to stay dead-even with this guy...and then he tracked down my steam later to send me a message that read "U fite like a bitch. turtle bitch." I guess he was mad because I had good defense XD
Very well explained. I had the most fun with fighting games when I played with friends. Grinding ranked was one of the most soul killing experiences I have ever engaged with in my life
I don't comment very often, but wanted to say you nailed the coffin on the head for this one. Always found it odd that I can play against my sparring buddy's in the fighting games we enjoy nearly all day, regardless of how much I know them (from an irl friend to a steam only associate). Online matchmaking truly dampens my will to play fighting games entirely. Once again great job! (hope you feel better soon)
I've been enjoying your videos a lot. I feel more people need access to others for sparring to enjoy themselves. They can talk shop and vent their frustrations to others. A long time discord member did this last night and so we walked through the menat Match fundamentals and discussed tactics. He seems more motivated than ever to learn which is great! Excellent video!
My least favorite experience is when I'm being torn away from my opponent because the game prioritizes my rank over me being able to play the game. Like when I get rank updated after one or two matches into an empty room in Strive.
There's also the sting of losing a few times in a row to a challenging but educational opponent, and getting kicked down a rank. It's so valuable to get wrecked by skilled players, but the game punishes you for it. It's why ELO rather than rank is better personally. You get the same interaction, but without such side effects. I can play these matches, learn, and not get punished because of our relative ELO scores.
@@maxtheawesome4255 After watching the video I played Strive and went from floor 7 to 5. I'm now exhausted and irritated. All I wanted to do is to jump in, play a few quick matches and practice playing Sin neutral and landing some combos but every time I hear the rank update sound I just lose the will to play the game. During the session I accomplished what I wanted and I just barely lost most of my matches. But instead of feeling good about what I accomplished I can only think about the time I spent waiting for an opponent or switching rooms because after the rank update I was the only person in the room. To be completely honest. Getting into fighting games turns out to be pretty easy. Just press some buttons and figure out what tools you're working with and when to use them. Playing a full priced fighting game online (without asking around on forums or discord) on the other hand seems like an impossible task FG developers couldn't figure out in 20 years. Quake 1 came out in June 22, 1996 and it was the first video game (that I know of) that had a multiplayer e-sports scene while Street Fighter 2 came out in February 1991 and SFVI seems like the first FG that is a video game with offline and (working) online content. This video is really good at talking about the worst part of playing a fighting game. Unfortunately sometimes I just want to hit quick match and play a few matches instead of looking for an opponent.
I like the point about not knowing what your opponent is thinking or what their intentions are. I find generally when people rematch you it's a sign that you are both having a good time. However, I had an experience with a player where I played sets with them for over an hour and we were trading wins and I was having a great time. Then at a certain point they stopped and flamed me in the lobby chat for about 10 minutes before quitting and it just left me completely baffled. Anyways, great video, you are super underrated.
Yeah, it is suuper hard to gauge. I think going into it assuming a rematcher is having a good time is a healthy attitude, but it's always very weird getting rage-mail after you think you've had a great time with someone.
I think you make a great point about a players lack of control being a big reason for why people bounce off fighting games. I do however think thats a problem with all online competitive games. Even other competitive games that are "simpler" still have knowledge checks, or character or item differences that aren't purly esthetic, not to mention player experience and the million other factors that can make online competitive play feel hostile. The fact that no game is even guaranteed a reliable player base or a means to be meanifully played with other people long term can make it go from hostile to exclusionary. (Especially if you're not willing to pour the same hours apon hours apon more hours it could take just to keep up with where most players' skills are in any given game)
I wasnt super on board at first but by the end i think you won me over! Finding consistent sparring partners rly makes the games so much more enjoyable. I need to try that
Just wanted to say I discovered your channel about a week ago thanks to the algorithm randomly blessing me with a good recommendation and subbed immediately and haven binged most of your content since. It's greatly entertaining and I love your editing, so I'll definitely be staying tuned.
Very well done video as usual. Personally it's a hellish cycle, matching up with discord randoms puts me through an incredible discomfort, while infuriating ranked matches keep not just me invested but also my friends and getting them into other games is near impossible as roughly 5 fgs in total have an actual player pool in ranked, all of which I fundamentally hardly enjoy. I have been able to get two friends to play more obscure titles with me which I enjoy a lot but improving in them that way is very slow, invalidating my options to play in tournaments or with above average players.
I find it strange that peopl get angry at matchmaking in fighting because my experience is the opposite in Tekken 7. As low skill playerI laugh my ass off while trying to figure out the (often too obvious and cheap or cheesy) playstyle of my opponents, rematching as often as I can, until I get a last triumphant laugh when they finally refuse a rematch because the only strategy they know stopped working. Alternatively I show respect to opponents who are frequently outplaying me or do not have an obviously predictable, cheap strategy as I try to learn with them.
Different strokes for different folks and all that. I think a lot of people could enjoy ranked more if they went in to it with a different mindset, but I also understand that it is a mental hurdle for a large amount of players.
This resonated with me. I have a friend who gets VERY salty with fighting games, and I couldn't get a real handle on why. Thing is, she's a bit of a control freak, and this angle makes SENSE! When she's winning, she's got control. When she's losing, she is in her nightmare scenario: zero control, under someone else's.
This is such an amazing video. You put into words every feeling of why I absolutely despise netplaying random people in this genre. It clear what the benefits are from doing playing a lot ranked and getting familiar with playing against the cast, but the unpredictable nature of things like the connection, skill level of my opponent, and how frequent you run into the same matchups you’ve already seen a million times can make the experience feel like pulling teeth. I think if I wasn’t lucky to enough to meet people on discord who were willing to mentor me or had my local scene around I might have been burnt out trying to ever grind these games.
I strongly agree with this. However, I do think part of it is still down to it being a completely anti-casual genre. See, you can't really ever play _with_ your friends so much as against them, and that means that you need to be on the same level as anyone you play with, which makes it harder to find people in person to play with. Fighting games are almost 100% about their gameplay mechanics and there isn't much you can do beyond that. All the extra modes still boil down to that. And if you're not experiencing the game on a higher level of understanding and proficiency, you can 'optimise the fun out of the game' as they say, by getting too comfortable using the same couple of moves and strategies, which wouldn't work on a higher level, but you need to be that much more passionate about the game to get to that level. And finally, fighting games don't really come down to reading animations as much as other combat-focused gameplay, because it's half that and half mind games, which introduces potential for a total lack of consistency that you wouldn't have to face in something like Sekiro.
I honestly love fighting games but my personal skill level stops me from enjoying them like I enjoy any other game , its just whenever you meet someone better than you and they wipe the floor with you it really puts you down :(
Haven’t watched the video yet as I’m about to fall asleep. But gotta leave an engagement comment. Your stuff is always so good, I want you to grow as much as possible !!!
Excellent video! I have friends who really grapple with this, hoping that sharing this will help them. I think the strongest argument for maintaining our control involves re-centering our mindset. The one thing we can truly control is how we react to all the random bullshit in matchmaking. Wanna yell? That's your choice. Can't adapt? Acknowledge that. And above all else, decide how you feel while playing. If fighting games aren't relaxing, DO SOMETHING ELSE. We have such limited time to engage with hobbies that fulfill us, so simply prioritize other hobbies on days you can't manage matchmaking. Keep up the good work!
That is definitely true, I think ranked can be super useful if you go into it knowing it will be very frustrating. I just don't think that it is weird that people who just want to play don't enjoy that.
some of the greatest content, once again. a very nice video putting into words what a lot of us more experienced players already know but newer players might not.
Fighting games would attract more new players if they were free to play. The social aspect of arcades was a big reason that fighting games thrived, but I also think the low barrier to entry was also a reason.
Really? Did that happen for Killer Instinct? See, i thought that model was such an abject failure that it's not being made and will never be made again likely. Hey how did that work out for Granblue Fantasy Versus? Virtua Fighter 5 Remix? Right. It's about as good of an idea for marketing as New freakin' COKE. Also WHAT "low barrier to entry?" Have you even ever BEEN in an arcade? xD
Free to play only works if there the company behind said product spends big on their marketing campaign to promote the game, but even then there isn't any guarantee that the game will succeed long term. Player retention and barrier to entry rarely go hand in hand, as many people in the FGC seem to think (look at Multiversus). Gameplay must be fun first and foremost, and free to play should be used as a supplementary means to keep the game alive financially, NOT as an excuse to make half-baked products (look at Halo Infinite). As Rubbish mentioned at the beginning of the video, topics surrounding why fighting games are not popular and other topics similar to it largely never mention the nuances around those topics, and fact of the matter is that no one statement/solution is always proven to be effective. Free to play isn't a cure nor the only solution to bring fighting games to the mainstream, it's a combination many factors which usually never discussed in tandem with f2p. Innovation to the core of the fighting game experience such as having a functioning online infrastructure and good onboarding tools like good tutorials are much more important. I started playing fighting games sometime in 2021 with Blazblue Centralfiction and that game has good netcode but horrible tutorials, where I feel like mostly feel like I'm punching the air most of the time because the game just doesn't tell me what to do. I didn't even know "motion inputs" are a thing until pointed out online wikis. This is just straight up bad game design, as the developer just assumes that I already know how to play fighting games, giving them an excuse to NOT make a robust tutorial for the newcomers that want to get good at the genre. tldr.: free to play isn't the cure of bad game design decisions, which bleeds the player retention that fighting games "desperately" need.
@@bling9 That's a much better way of putting it! :D It boggles my mind though that BlazBlue had a *bad* tutorial. i still remember the one in Continuum Shift being not only very feature rich but *hilarious!* There's nothing like finally nailing a really ambiguous cancel just to hear Rachel yawn: "i suppose that's passable for a somewhat conscious mammal." xD
@@mikejonesnoreally Virtua Fighter 5 Ultimate Showdown was successful as a free-to-play title for PS Plus. Project L will also be free-to-play, and with the backing of Riot Games, it will probably be a hit. By low barrier to entry in arcades, I meant the 50-cent price to try a fighting game. I'd argue part of the appeal of the retro fighting game scene is the free admission through Fightcade.
amazing video! the melee community has just been introduced to in-game ranked so it's been interesting seeing people experience how soul-sucking ranked fighting games can be for the first time. at least slippi makes you stay for the entire bo3 set (doesn't stop people from alt-f4ing but its better than nothing)
I think talking to your opponent online is so important for the longevity of the game. This is why I always scratch my head when people scoff at discord match-making. Like, you're gonna have a better time! If all you do is random matchmaking, it's no wonder you get frustrated. When it comes to ranked, you gotta reach out to players you have a good time playing. It's a good way to make friends, and when they've got someone to talk to about the game, they're more likely to keep playing & not getting frustrated with the game. That's a net win for all of us who wanna play the game and see other strong players. Friendship is the best motivator! I think it's important to create a better mindset when approaching ranked mode. It's a good way to gain some general experience and see the way a lot of different people play. But you need to develop your eyes and learn what you can do better, because the other folks there won't help you figure out what to do. I mean, usually not. But maybe they'll hit you up after a set and say "Let's play again soon!" also, wow, the outro was way too loud on this one.
I genuinely feel so seen after watching this video. The only experience I could have with fighting games was over the online systems. Spending +5 hours a day trying to learn everything while getting my ass beat by random players felt like sitting a insane asylum. It wouldn't take long before I would become an incredibly toxic person, entering that headspace whenever I plugged-in my fightstick. Whenever the stars aligned and work didn't schedule me during a local, I would go with enthusiasm, excited to meet new people. But my toxic mindset was still there. Pettiness and the sharpness in my stomach was all I could feel on the drive home. I burned a lot of bridges with my local scene because I couldn't control the pain. So I left. I wish I could have seen this video sooner, but I'm still glad I did. Ty for making me feel a little less insane.
When I play online, I almost exclusively play ranked, because this is the only way to fight people at my middling level, and that's when I usually have the most fun. But ranked is the only way games seems to gauge/update your level. I think DBFZ tried some rankless skill evaluation with the colour system, but I've heard it's more broken than ranked.
I've been playing Melee competitively since 2014 and I almost exclusively play with my melee friends. Sure it hurts my matchup experiences, but I've had fun learning and laughing at the game playing alongside others offline.
I had started watching this video when it was called "The Evils of Matchmaking", and now I'm going to finish watching it as "Fighting Games' Secret Flaw", but here or there, I can stay that it still was a really good video to watch :)
So I used to be a Killer with fighting games, but like one day I fucked up someone's day and pushed them away from Fighting games.... After that I tosses away the ideal that Everyone should get it no matter what their skill Level. Like if I am playing someone offline and I am aware that they don't play that much, I would hold back for enjoyment of the other player. it feels good.
I've been struggling with this for a long time now and couldn't explain to myself why am I can't seem to bear ranked for more than an hour until my nose gets itchy because of anxiety
I've newly been able to get access to a fiber optic internet connection and so am finally able to experience the wonder of playing FGs online. Oh boy does that equation for anger remark feels relatable. Take care and get well soon Rubbish.
I think almost every aspect of bad online experience that fighting games have is pretty much the same as to why LOL's SoloQ is commonly considered the single worst online experience one can have. There's way more elements out of your control: The teammates you're with and how they'll react to what happens on the match, the events that happen during the match and even the position you're assigned to (sometimes the game gives you a middle finger and chooses a location you didn't want) or the character you want to pick because of what your team and the other team picks. The main argument thrown is precisely that lack of control, the fact that one stranger you are teamed with can decide you don't get the W no matter how well you play.
That's kinda why I'd say to everyone interested in a new game: search for a dedicated discord for the game. They're generally really friendly and then you can get to know people before playing with them, in fact a missbehavior from the other person could be reported to mods and get them in trouble, there ARE bad people and servers here and there but I see more pros on trying rather than not
My favorite fighting game advice: Find a game where it’s fun to lose. Haven’t won a fair UMvC3 match in years but I’ll have a goofy grin the whole time.
You know how in GGST, before playing online you need to pass 2 matches with AI that measure you? And you are put close to appropriate rank. Well, it should be the default way fighters allow you to play online first time. Because otherwise on a ranked ladder where everybody starts at the bottom - the first match online is a coin toss. Whether you are greeted with a normal fairly close match; or against a beast that has already labbed his character and ready to conquer the ladder. And people are wondering, why fighters have so few players comparatively to other genres! Even very new player friendly Fantasy Strike doesn't do that, I think. This thought came to me after I tried Skullgirls yesterday. And every single match proceeded to eat 40+ count combos. Yes, it happens because there's close to 2 people looking for match there at a particular time. But the same thing happened to me when MvC3 released on steam. First day after launch - start the game; familiarize with controls; go online; proceed to eat infinite doctor doom loop. Granted, the game was out on consoles for a while before that. But it's not an excuse. (MvC3 is the only game I refunded. Yes, I dislike high combos and infinites. But if I gradually was introduced to bigger and bigger combos, maybe the outcome would be different) And to compare, there's a little pokemon-like game, Bravery Network Online. It prides itself that there's no levelling and no random. So like in fighting games, all tools are available to you nearly right away. But online play is still - a reward for beating a short campaign. And well, shooters measure you for the first few matches against ai too. Fighting games should be doing the same! Even more applicable to fighters, the falloff of newbies is crazy. They might think something's wrong with the game, if they're matched against pros right away. It's uhh, called onboarding.
i just wish games had better chat options that you can opt in for to avoid abuse for people who cant handle it. being able to say your ggs and ask a question or give advice would go a long way. it needs to be fast and convenient to use though or else no one will use or even notice it like in Strive.
As much as the "finding Discord servers to get a better experience" would help for other people, it has honestly been the worst advice for me. I play BlazBlue Central Fiction, it's really the only FG I play left and some of the BBCF servers on that list you posted I'm banned from because I'm considered the reincarnation of Lucifer by certain people that made lies and BS and sadly it's the majority to some of the people in there. The last server I was apart of was a small group server for people that wanted to get better and it was literally ridiculous with how many people were so toxic, hypocritical and not helping when it came to giving out advice, I was getting so many different answers for trying to get better and it was just such a headache. The owner of the server claimed that the server is for those who can escape the realm of complete degeneracy or stupidity of other players but she was always the first to talk mess and even claimed herself as "God" and a "high level player", her amongst others basically can say and do whatever they want but when I did it, it was "uncalled for" or "ego centric" and considered the end of the world for them. I called them out on their hypocrisy and then I got banned from it and got blocked by her. I shouldn't have to deal with that if a Discord is the way to have a better experience in a game, it saddens me because BlazBlue the series I always loved not because of how fun the game is but also for it's characters and lore it builds up is now attracting a bunch of children
Honestly, the intimacy angle of fighting games as was alluded to by Bahktanians might've had something to do with why I fell off of KI2013 so hard. Was during the "Infinite Ultras" era where people could essentially keep you from going back to the matchmaking lobby for a good 3 to 5 minutes just by whiffing their Ultra in the right place(mostly on Hisako, I know other chars had infinite loops) and starting another one. Had one night where somebody started in on that shit, I got up, went to hit the head, refilled my drink, _and made a bag of popcorn_ only to come back and have to watch three more loops of the Ultra that I was locked in when I got up before the guy finally dropped his combo. I think that was the last match I played, 'cause I was **mad as shit** seeing that, and I couldn't tell why it was possible, or who would even do some shit like that as a sporting competitor-- and that trying to sort out the motive was only pissing me off more til I just uninstalled and went back to MK.
Great video but I will say that finding sparring partners isn’t necessarily going to fix all of these problems, and brings a lot of problems on its own. Me and my friends played smash ultimate competitively with each other all throughout high school, and we all got pretty damn good at it. The problem that kept coming up when I’d fight someone at a tournament is that all this time I hadn’t been training to beat people, I had been training to beat my friends. They didn’t have super unorthodox strategies or anything, but the habits and tells of my friends kept being something I’d look for when fighting other people and never consistently find, since they’re a different person. This isn’t just to knock discord groups or anything, I’m sure with the fluid nature of a discord server you’d probably find more success than in a friend group of like eight people, but keep in mind that not everything is going to carry over if improving and doing good at tournaments is your goal. If that’s not your goal then do whatever the fuck you want lol
i began playing tekken little more than a year ago. i don't really agree with the statement that mechanical, knowledge doesn't tie in to new people not wanting to play. I have a bunch of friends that play at parties, want to play or quit pretty fast. they all say the issue is the mechanical skill floor that is too high, and not understanding wtf is going on 90% of the time with over a 100 moves. League doesn't have that issue cuz every champion only has 4 moves including some passive. the game is also easy to learn during gameplay, and not use time to train in some solo practice mode (i know you talked about a few of my points, really great video btw!) in general. people tend to have fun even when losing if they understand what they lose to. people need to feel like they have a decent chance at winning, even if they don't.
It's only natural that you would disagree. Rubbish's 'arguments' all revolve around the three 'talking points' that they considered to be invalid at the start of this very video: a lack of learning tools (community), mechanical strictness (lack of control), knowledge requirements (Lei Wulong vs Valorant character). It took them 16 minutes to say "go to a local" while also perfectly describing WHY someone wouldn't find locals to be fun and rewarding with their boxing analogy. Incredible. In summation, this video was hilariously contradictory and ignored singleplayer content as a factor for player onboarding/retention while ignoring that Online issues only *highlighted* inherent problems that also exist offline.
So I think the point that what you're talking about is sportmanship, which is the way that player conduct themselves so that has an opportunity for fun interactions. For example, often in tournaments when two players playing the same low tier character woulf face off against each other, they would do a taunt at the beginning of the round to show that they are part of the same "team/ community" My idea for introducing sportmanship back into online ranking is to split the playerbase intwo 3 arbitrary factions, maybe east, west, and central. This way every ranked match isn't against. If you fight an enemy faction, you gain rank points for a win but you opponent also loses rank points, a neutral faction is that you gain rank points for a win, but your opponent doesn't lose anything, and lastly fighting a friendly gains both players ranked points, and they have the ability to catch with each other after the friendly match.
Even if matchmaking would be perfectly fair - just by nature of online play, you'd be feeling like it's not. You never get to see how much opponent is struggling. Some games don't even have easy way to chat with them after game to discuss whatever happened, give/ask for advice. Just relax, let the waves of matchmaking carry you, and practice the thing you want. After all, rank position is measuring RELATIVE skill for players. I may be in bronze/wood/dirt league, but I'm still better than 20% of game's playerbase. for example. (I may be repeating a point from the video, but whatever. Out of many card games I played, there's global chat in just 2. And in both it's such a great thing!)
Not going to lie depending on my mindset. I’d get pissed off when people ki charge, t bag and or leave ll after they win 1 match in tekken. When I win I give them the run back regardless . Moreso for more points to win. Lol but also to learn that characters moves and then a change to learn
man. i looked at the thumbnail and half-assumed the video would be complaining about the mechanical loss of control during hitstun. i was really ready to be disappointed with an overplayed take, but i really should have known better. this video makes a very good point, and one i hadn't deeply thought about before. about halfway through the video, i thought about leaving a comment praising so-called 'discord fighters' for funneling players into an experience which is fundamentally more enjoyable, since the social presence alleviates the issues noted in this video significantly. but you essentially beat me to it! i can confirm, being able to communicate reliably with your opponent- and especially audibly speak- is a huge help in managing both players' emotional reactions to the game, as well as in retaining the control over the circumstances of your play. for example, many people are entirely willing to switch to one of the other characters they play when asked, especially if they're winning either way. if you want someone who's alting to play their main, or if you want specific practice against a particular character, or even just that individual's playstyle with one character, it can help a lot. thank you for once again making a video saying something that had to be said.
ur onto something here. control. queuing ranked is so random compared to any other game/hobby. also there needs to be a forced ft5 mode, like if u win 4 and u disconnect, ur opponent wins. look at how much time ONE moba game takes. or potentially one R6 siege/csGO game. its stupid to think your community can feel good learning the game, after ONE GAME (potentially 4min 57sec gametime MAX) we need longer sets, and i know lobbies are meant to remedy that, but finding someone on ur level is an issue. everytime i even LOOK at lobbies in any fighting game, its people BEYOND my level entirely, or the lobby has more than one person. im not sitting in a lobby to take a turn, then wait again, thats insane. a que for longer sets in rollback would fix so much of this randomness, as even if u lose 2-3 games u could adjust mid-set.
So based in this Video Spending all the your time in the Lab practicing Combos you saw in CZcams as if it was an never ending Combo Challenge mode with 1 or 2 characters, and almost never going to other modes like arcade, story, rank, and lobbies at top of never practicing footsies and/or labbing specific scenarios is a legitimate way to play fighting games? ykw, that sounds like a fun 60hrs for me like a choreographed tricking simulator. And a lot less stressful that rank. Joining a discord for help and fun facts could be fun too.
@@eddypoo22 I understand that is frustrating, but I don't think SF5 funnels you into ranked, it has casual mode and lobbies and a decent amount of single player stuff (nowadays at least), so if you are stuck in bronze, there are ways to enjoy the game without worrying about what rank you are. Any other games you can think of?
I lvoed it! I started playing fgs on a crappy 2 players pandora box stick and the connection between humans was great. Online it feels like everyone is moking me when winning and angry at me when losing. I much much prefer to play on discord servers
Me and cousin play tekken 7 all the time and I win about 90% of the time. We dun had arguments/ fights over them cause one of us got salty or moreso he got tired of losing. But yet he’d still come back to play a day or two later though, that feeling for him to want to beat me and bonding as we chat about random shit. The thing is… I’m only a few months more seasoned than him coming to playing fighting games. But I watch and been watching people play all kind of fighting games that I kind of learned to adopt and remember to use those tactics for me to win. Even when I use characters he uses or random characters he’d be like “damn bro you’re just good with everyone” though for the most I’m spamming out moves to learn and adapt in real time I still have the understanding from me watching others play and use spacing, punishes and other things that gives me the edge to win. Only been playing fighting games for a year and moreso only came to because call of duty veen going to shit and had to branch out. Lol tho I don’t play too too often I’d rather play tekken with him or online at times than other games.. that feeling of knowing you’re adapting/ getting better and especially winning is a high. I’m only a yellow rank vindicator in tekken with only about 40 matches. Regardless. Great video!
I personally don't enjoy faceless sparring partners from Discord anymore than random matchmaking. If I can play with actual friends then I can have the social experience you described.
I guess for me it's a bit different since I never REALLY had any issue playing online. Yet I did notice ALL the problems with a lot of modern fighters have been because of online. Either it just wasn't good for play outside of JP/SK or had some weird gimmicks where it just wasn't pure gameplay. People REALLY just want to a solid lobby where they can run the hands with their homies. THAT'S the online people really want. Since I know MOBAs you cannot even get into ranked without putting in work versus bots, ranked is fighters is WHY a lot of people get so angry. They want "casual" matches but they playing "ranked". Fighting games are meant to be played in person so if somebody's new you can teach them actively how to do something. Which is how and why there's the ability to have 2 players in pratice mode online. Yet I don't see people really use it. Fighting games' flaw is like it gives players everything they kinda need more than ever. Yet the player has to want to use what they have. If they don't use it they're most likely gonna get angry and leave.
I never thought about a lot of points in this video. I used to go to SSBM tournaments awhile back and maybe there was some reform by then, but I remember always hearing how toxic the FGC was beforehand only to find out that I saw just about none of it when in person. I remember when smash ultimate was fairly new, some friends had their own tournament, just for fun, annd... didn't know I played Smash a lot beforehand. One of them was exceptionally not thrilled with how I was playing, but I actually realized something mid match. His character, Young Link, could barely even cover platforms with anything in his moveset, but he had chosen to play on battlefield vs me, as wolf, who just covers platforms by accident if not just by existing. I explained this after the match and the next time he lost a round to someone else, he went to FD and did much better. I'm probably a bit of a dick for entering that tournament though.
Our individual experiences are of course not all going to match up, but I think these systems could be made way less frustrating without losing much in the transition.
Ah, so that's why I hate solo q-ing in mobas. I get everyone picking my overwatch main and then I have to pocket Amari carry these dps scubs. Also I do feel happier when I play for honor with a buddy. Fighting is intimate and making light of bs strangers do to me is conducive to happiness.
Here's every fighting game: -spend millions on making the game -make it as obtusive and inaccessible as possible. Even enabling frame data so players can study where their hitboxes are, rather than using the character models to indicate these hitboxes like they're supposed to -clutter the screen and ruin readability with like 4 assist characters on screen at once with lasers and particle effects and backgrounds and non active characters all using the same color palette with the same luminosity and saturation values. -99% of players fall off and stop playing because 90% of play time is just waiting around while you or your opponent do simon says and execute the same string of buttons. The only 10% that has gameplay is during footsies. But instead of just avoiding combos and making single touches do a bunch of damage and knockback, we make 2 combos win the entire match. -high level characters perform bad against grapplers and rage about them because they keep them from doing their simon says to win combo strategy, despite that grapplers hold onto their foes for a fraction of the time that a striker does. As a result, grapplers go straight to S tier viability. -sell outrageously expensive pay to win characters that are better than all the others and require 0 effort to play
I got giga-covid and construction crews are drilling in every adjacent apartment 24/7.
Get well
Get well soon fam
Get well soon!
Get well soon hank you rubbish for this great peace of art
Damn bro, rest up and I hope you recover well.
One of the best part of fighting games for me is that conversation I have with friends where we teach each other how to avoid "that move"
That sounds like S-Tier fighting game conversation right there.
i like getting people to try strive, telling them to jump to avoid the potemkin buster, then immediately heavenly potemkin busting them
another good conversation is when some truly bullshit stuff happens, and you both just pause your shit talk for a straight 2 seconds. then the match continues while you both laugh your ass off in confusion.
czcams.com/video/K9MR2UxZTME/video.html
@@hmad898 chaotic and hilarious
That point about reacting differently to the same quirky interaction online compared to in-person is so good cause as soon as you brought it up I had like an Anton Ego Ratatouille flashback to every time I've done exactly that
We are all war-criminals in the event that nobody is there to witness us.
@@HQRubbish r/14antIzshoDEEP!
That's such an interesting point you made about the unpredictability of fighting games in comparison to other hobbies.
Behavioural psychology proved long ago that the best way to guarantee repeated behavior, is to make the intervals between desired outcomes completely random and unpredictable.
This explains so much as to why people complain about fighting games, yet can't seem to stop playing, it's the same type of behavior seen with people that are addicted to slots... You just prompted me to realize the correlation 😅
That's super interesting, I did not know that.
That's any competitive matchmaking. Especially once these games introduce "secret mechanics" that place you against an opponent that is stronger to break your winstreak or gives you weak teammates to help your opponent win to give him a dopamine rush so he continues pressing the "find game" button. So you are always on the edge, hoping that maybe this next game will bring you to a promotion. Playing competitive games for ranks is pretty much the same as going to a casino.
@@helgenlane For sure, but that goes without saying.
Fighting games are the more extreme example, due to their many variables such as numerous chars and varied MU knowledge. This was my initial point; they are much, much more random than most activities.
If I'm good at COD Team Deathmatch, I can control how my match will go 90% of the time, my knowledge of ranking up is also relatively known. BR would be slightly more random, but again, nothing at all close in comparison to say, Tekken 7.
"aw dang it"
This is 100% true, there are countless times where I would exit an online set thinking that my opponent and I had a mutual enjoyable experience, maybe even with a mostly even set count, then I just get hit with a huge wave of angry messages about my play. In person, you can tell when someone is making risky plays for fun or out of frustration. Online, you can't. The online experience compared to locals really is night and day. I hope that a lot of these online-only newcomers don't bring that vitriol with them to in-person events.
It's weird, but when I lurk in my battle lounge in SFV, the people who want the rematch over and over again aren't the close matches, almost ever.
When I absolutely WASH someone over and over, there tends to be a message of "good game" and "thanks for the match" followed by a friend request, and that player showing up more times for a thrashing.
Some of these guys DEFINITELY were doing it to learn off me. One of them now beats my ass 60% of the time!
But yeah, you really can't tell what people are thinking. One guy I thought we were having a great time. ALL the matches were down to the wire, and I was using every single thing I'd ever learned just to stay dead-even with this guy...and then he tracked down my steam later to send me a message that read "U fite like a bitch. turtle bitch."
I guess he was mad because I had good defense XD
There's a reason why the term "discord-fighter" should be considered a compliment instead of an insult.
Very well explained. I had the most fun with fighting games when I played with friends. Grinding ranked was one of the most soul killing experiences I have ever engaged with in my life
I don't comment very often, but wanted to say you nailed the coffin on the head for this one. Always found it odd that I can play against my sparring buddy's in the fighting games we enjoy nearly all day, regardless of how much I know them (from an irl friend to a steam only associate). Online matchmaking truly dampens my will to play fighting games entirely. Once again great job! (hope you feel better soon)
I've been enjoying your videos a lot. I feel more people need access to others for sparring to enjoy themselves. They can talk shop and vent their frustrations to others. A long time discord member did this last night and so we walked through the menat Match fundamentals and discussed tactics. He seems more motivated than ever to learn which is great!
Excellent video!
I couldn't agree more, sounds like a cool community you got going!
My least favorite experience is when I'm being torn away from my opponent because the game prioritizes my rank over me being able to play the game.
Like when I get rank updated after one or two matches into an empty room in Strive.
Rating update is hell
There's also the sting of losing a few times in a row to a challenging but educational opponent, and getting kicked down a rank. It's so valuable to get wrecked by skilled players, but the game punishes you for it. It's why ELO rather than rank is better personally. You get the same interaction, but without such side effects. I can play these matches, learn, and not get punished because of our relative ELO scores.
Not anymore since last update. :)
@@maxtheawesome4255 After watching the video I played Strive and went from floor 7 to 5. I'm now exhausted and irritated. All I wanted to do is to jump in, play a few quick matches and practice playing Sin neutral and landing some combos but every time I hear the rank update sound I just lose the will to play the game. During the session I accomplished what I wanted and I just barely lost most of my matches. But instead of feeling good about what I accomplished I can only think about the time I spent waiting for an opponent or switching rooms because after the rank update I was the only person in the room.
To be completely honest. Getting into fighting games turns out to be pretty easy. Just press some buttons and figure out what tools you're working with and when to use them. Playing a full priced fighting game online (without asking around on forums or discord) on the other hand seems like an impossible task FG developers couldn't figure out in 20 years. Quake 1 came out in June 22, 1996 and it was the first video game (that I know of) that had a multiplayer e-sports scene while Street Fighter 2 came out in February 1991 and SFVI seems like the first FG that is a video game with offline and (working) online content.
This video is really good at talking about the worst part of playing a fighting game. Unfortunately sometimes I just want to hit quick match and play a few matches instead of looking for an opponent.
The strive ranked tower is a massive missed opportunity. Absolutely frustrating.
I like the point about not knowing what your opponent is thinking or what their intentions are. I find generally when people rematch you it's a sign that you are both having a good time. However, I had an experience with a player where I played sets with them for over an hour and we were trading wins and I was having a great time. Then at a certain point they stopped and flamed me in the lobby chat for about 10 minutes before quitting and it just left me completely baffled. Anyways, great video, you are super underrated.
Yeah, it is suuper hard to gauge. I think going into it assuming a rematcher is having a good time is a healthy attitude, but it's always very weird getting rage-mail after you think you've had a great time with someone.
The way I see it, they were rematching to get revenge before imploding
I think you make a great point about a players lack of control being a big reason for why people bounce off fighting games. I do however think thats a problem with all online competitive games. Even other competitive games that are "simpler" still have knowledge checks, or character or item differences that aren't purly esthetic, not to mention player experience and the million other factors that can make online competitive play feel hostile. The fact that no game is even guaranteed a reliable player base or a means to be meanifully played with other people long term can make it go from hostile to exclusionary. (Especially if you're not willing to pour the same hours apon hours apon more hours it could take just to keep up with where most players' skills are in any given game)
I wasnt super on board at first but by the end i think you won me over! Finding consistent sparring partners rly makes the games so much more enjoyable. I need to try that
Just wanted to say I discovered your channel about a week ago thanks to the algorithm randomly blessing me with a good recommendation and subbed immediately and haven binged most of your content since. It's greatly entertaining and I love your editing, so I'll definitely be staying tuned.
Welcome aboard!
Very well done video as usual.
Personally it's a hellish cycle, matching up with discord randoms puts me through an incredible discomfort, while infuriating ranked matches keep not just me invested but also my friends and getting them into other games is near impossible as roughly 5 fgs in total have an actual player pool in ranked, all of which I fundamentally hardly enjoy. I have been able to get two friends to play more obscure titles with me which I enjoy a lot but improving in them that way is very slow, invalidating my options to play in tournaments or with above average players.
I find it strange that peopl get angry at matchmaking in fighting because my experience is the opposite in Tekken 7. As low skill playerI laugh my ass off while trying to figure out the (often too obvious and cheap or cheesy) playstyle of my opponents, rematching as often as I can, until I get a last triumphant laugh when they finally refuse a rematch because the only strategy they know stopped working. Alternatively I show respect to opponents who are frequently outplaying me or do not have an obviously predictable, cheap strategy as I try to learn with them.
Different strokes for different folks and all that. I think a lot of people could enjoy ranked more if they went in to it with a different mindset, but I also understand that it is a mental hurdle for a large amount of players.
This resonated with me. I have a friend who gets VERY salty with fighting games, and I couldn't get a real handle on why.
Thing is, she's a bit of a control freak, and this angle makes SENSE!
When she's winning, she's got control. When she's losing, she is in her nightmare scenario: zero control, under someone else's.
This is such an amazing video. You put into words every feeling of why I absolutely despise netplaying random people in this genre. It clear what the benefits are from doing playing a lot ranked and getting familiar with playing against the cast, but the unpredictable nature of things like the connection, skill level of my opponent, and how frequent you run into the same matchups you’ve already seen a million times can make the experience feel like pulling teeth. I think if I wasn’t lucky to enough to meet people on discord who were willing to mentor me or had my local scene around I might have been burnt out trying to ever grind these games.
Lots of cool people out there if you take the time to find em! Glad you got a cool group to play with.
Incredibly high quality and very well done video, loved it and its true asf
Much appreciated!
I strongly agree with this. However, I do think part of it is still down to it being a completely anti-casual genre. See, you can't really ever play _with_ your friends so much as against them, and that means that you need to be on the same level as anyone you play with, which makes it harder to find people in person to play with. Fighting games are almost 100% about their gameplay mechanics and there isn't much you can do beyond that. All the extra modes still boil down to that. And if you're not experiencing the game on a higher level of understanding and proficiency, you can 'optimise the fun out of the game' as they say, by getting too comfortable using the same couple of moves and strategies, which wouldn't work on a higher level, but you need to be that much more passionate about the game to get to that level. And finally, fighting games don't really come down to reading animations as much as other combat-focused gameplay, because it's half that and half mind games, which introduces potential for a total lack of consistency that you wouldn't have to face in something like Sekiro.
Thank you for talking about this. I really wish companies would do a chat of voice system during games
I honestly love fighting games but my personal skill level stops me from enjoying them like I enjoy any other game , its just whenever you meet someone better than you and they wipe the floor with you it really puts you down :(
Thats reason way! "Golf" nes is the best game on planet Dearth!
Haven’t watched the video yet as I’m about to fall asleep. But gotta leave an engagement comment. Your stuff is always so good, I want you to grow as much as possible !!!
I was enjoying an interesting video on the value on matchmaking, and then I got hit by the end credits mixup.
Way to keep it interesting. Great video!
Excellent video! I have friends who really grapple with this, hoping that sharing this will help them. I think the strongest argument for maintaining our control involves re-centering our mindset. The one thing we can truly control is how we react to all the random bullshit in matchmaking. Wanna yell? That's your choice. Can't adapt? Acknowledge that. And above all else, decide how you feel while playing. If fighting games aren't relaxing, DO SOMETHING ELSE. We have such limited time to engage with hobbies that fulfill us, so simply prioritize other hobbies on days you can't manage matchmaking. Keep up the good work!
That is definitely true, I think ranked can be super useful if you go into it knowing it will be very frustrating. I just don't think that it is weird that people who just want to play don't enjoy that.
some of the greatest content, once again. a very nice video putting into words what a lot of us more experienced players already know but newer players might not.
Fightcade honestly does this pretty well. You get to chat with peeps you match with without the commitment of joining a discord server
I agree, can be a great place to have a good time (especially now that moderation is taken more seriously).
Fighting games would attract more new players if they were free to play. The social aspect of arcades was a big reason that fighting games thrived, but I also think the low barrier to entry was also a reason.
Certain mobile games are like that.
Really? Did that happen for Killer Instinct? See, i thought that model was such an abject failure that it's not being made and will never be made again likely. Hey how did that work out for Granblue Fantasy Versus? Virtua Fighter 5 Remix? Right. It's about as good of an idea for marketing as New freakin' COKE. Also WHAT "low barrier to entry?" Have you even ever BEEN in an arcade? xD
Free to play only works if there the company behind said product spends big on their marketing campaign to promote the game, but even then there isn't any guarantee that the game will succeed long term. Player retention and barrier to entry rarely go hand in hand, as many people in the FGC seem to think (look at Multiversus). Gameplay must be fun first and foremost, and free to play should be used as a supplementary means to keep the game alive financially, NOT as an excuse to make half-baked products (look at Halo Infinite).
As Rubbish mentioned at the beginning of the video, topics surrounding why fighting games are not popular and other topics similar to it largely never mention the nuances around those topics, and fact of the matter is that no one statement/solution is always proven to be effective.
Free to play isn't a cure nor the only solution to bring fighting games to the mainstream, it's a combination many factors which usually never discussed in tandem with f2p. Innovation to the core of the fighting game experience such as having a functioning online infrastructure and good onboarding tools like good tutorials are much more important. I started playing fighting games sometime in 2021 with Blazblue Centralfiction and that game has good netcode but horrible tutorials, where I feel like mostly feel like I'm punching the air most of the time because the game just doesn't tell me what to do. I didn't even know "motion inputs" are a thing until pointed out online wikis. This is just straight up bad game design, as the developer just assumes that I already know how to play fighting games, giving them an excuse to NOT make a robust tutorial for the newcomers that want to get good at the genre.
tldr.: free to play isn't the cure of bad game design decisions, which bleeds the player retention that fighting games "desperately" need.
@@bling9 That's a much better way of putting it! :D It boggles my mind though that BlazBlue had a *bad* tutorial. i still remember the one in Continuum Shift being not only very feature rich but *hilarious!* There's nothing like finally nailing a really ambiguous cancel just to hear Rachel yawn: "i suppose that's passable for a somewhat conscious mammal." xD
@@mikejonesnoreally Virtua Fighter 5 Ultimate Showdown was successful as a free-to-play title for PS Plus. Project L will also be free-to-play, and with the backing of Riot Games, it will probably be a hit. By low barrier to entry in arcades, I meant the 50-cent price to try a fighting game. I'd argue part of the appeal of the retro fighting game scene is the free admission through Fightcade.
Thank you for this video. It helped me to understand myself and some friends who lived this experience
amazing video! the melee community has just been introduced to in-game ranked so it's been interesting seeing people experience how soul-sucking ranked fighting games can be for the first time. at least slippi makes you stay for the entire bo3 set (doesn't stop people from alt-f4ing but its better than nothing)
I think talking to your opponent online is so important for the longevity of the game. This is why I always scratch my head when people scoff at discord match-making. Like, you're gonna have a better time! If all you do is random matchmaking, it's no wonder you get frustrated.
When it comes to ranked, you gotta reach out to players you have a good time playing. It's a good way to make friends, and when they've got someone to talk to about the game, they're more likely to keep playing & not getting frustrated with the game. That's a net win for all of us who wanna play the game and see other strong players. Friendship is the best motivator!
I think it's important to create a better mindset when approaching ranked mode. It's a good way to gain some general experience and see the way a lot of different people play. But you need to develop your eyes and learn what you can do better, because the other folks there won't help you figure out what to do.
I mean, usually not. But maybe they'll hit you up after a set and say "Let's play again soon!"
also, wow, the outro was way too loud on this one.
I genuinely feel so seen after watching this video. The only experience I could have with fighting games was over the online systems. Spending +5 hours a day trying to learn everything while getting my ass beat by random players felt like sitting a insane asylum. It wouldn't take long before I would become an incredibly toxic person, entering that headspace whenever I plugged-in my fightstick.
Whenever the stars aligned and work didn't schedule me during a local, I would go with enthusiasm, excited to meet new people. But my toxic mindset was still there. Pettiness and the sharpness in my stomach was all I could feel on the drive home. I burned a lot of bridges with my local scene because I couldn't control the pain. So I left.
I wish I could have seen this video sooner, but I'm still glad I did. Ty for making me feel a little less insane.
When I play online, I almost exclusively play ranked, because this is the only way to fight people at my middling level, and that's when I usually have the most fun. But ranked is the only way games seems to gauge/update your level. I think DBFZ tried some rankless skill evaluation with the colour system, but I've heard it's more broken than ranked.
Love the videos man. Keep it up!
4:01 these photos fit gamer rage 🎉
first fighting game channel i found that didnt waste my time with surface level or elusive concepts with no explanations or details attached
You have a great point and I’m beginning to reconsider my opinion - maybe this is my MK11 has voice chat enabled and can’t be disabled
I've been playing Melee competitively since 2014 and I almost exclusively play with my melee friends. Sure it hurts my matchup experiences, but I've had fun learning and laughing at the game playing alongside others offline.
Your opponent is only a mirror of yourself. How you interact react and view your opponent shows your relationship with yourself.
Hell yeah! Wake up to a Rubbish video, GG patch dropped yesterday and I already got my Avatar tickets. This gonna be an excellent weekend!
I had started watching this video when it was called "The Evils of Matchmaking", and now I'm going to finish watching it as "Fighting Games' Secret Flaw", but here or there, I can stay that it still was a really good video to watch :)
Indecision is a helluva drug, thanks for watching!
Thanks for the video. Lots of people end up in the middle tiers and the most important thing is to actually enjoy yourself.
So I used to be a Killer with fighting games, but like one day I fucked up someone's day and pushed them away from Fighting games.... After that I tosses away the ideal that Everyone should get it no matter what their skill Level. Like if I am playing someone offline and I am aware that they don't play that much, I would hold back for enjoyment of the other player. it feels good.
How production quality this high tho 🤯
I've been struggling with this for a long time now and couldn't explain to myself why am I can't seem to bear ranked for more than an hour until my nose gets itchy because of anxiety
I've newly been able to get access to a fiber optic internet connection and so am finally able to experience the wonder of playing FGs online. Oh boy does that equation for anger remark feels relatable.
Take care and get well soon Rubbish.
Rubbish just woke up one day and decided he'd become a goated FGC channel.
I think almost every aspect of bad online experience that fighting games have is pretty much the same as to why LOL's SoloQ is commonly considered the single worst online experience one can have.
There's way more elements out of your control: The teammates you're with and how they'll react to what happens on the match, the events that happen during the match and even the position you're assigned to (sometimes the game gives you a middle finger and chooses a location you didn't want) or the character you want to pick because of what your team and the other team picks.
The main argument thrown is precisely that lack of control, the fact that one stranger you are teamed with can decide you don't get the W no matter how well you play.
That's kinda why I'd say to everyone interested in a new game: search for a dedicated discord for the game. They're generally really friendly and then you can get to know people before playing with them, in fact a missbehavior from the other person could be reported to mods and get them in trouble, there ARE bad people and servers here and there but I see more pros on trying rather than not
Man, you seem like a really interesting person. Your videos are perfect
The most stylish and slick video I've seen about social lubricant.
My favorite fighting game advice: Find a game where it’s fun to lose.
Haven’t won a fair UMvC3 match in years but I’ll have a goofy grin the whole time.
You know how in GGST, before playing online you need to pass 2 matches with AI that measure you? And you are put close to appropriate rank.
Well, it should be the default way fighters allow you to play online first time.
Because otherwise on a ranked ladder where everybody starts at the bottom - the first match online is a coin toss. Whether you are greeted with a normal fairly close match; or against a beast that has already labbed his character and ready to conquer the ladder.
And people are wondering, why fighters have so few players comparatively to other genres!
Even very new player friendly Fantasy Strike doesn't do that, I think.
This thought came to me after I tried Skullgirls yesterday. And every single match proceeded to eat 40+ count combos. Yes, it happens because there's close to 2 people looking for match there at a particular time. But the same thing happened to me when MvC3 released on steam. First day after launch - start the game; familiarize with controls; go online; proceed to eat infinite doctor doom loop. Granted, the game was out on consoles for a while before that. But it's not an excuse. (MvC3 is the only game I refunded. Yes, I dislike high combos and infinites. But if I gradually was introduced to bigger and bigger combos, maybe the outcome would be different)
And to compare, there's a little pokemon-like game, Bravery Network Online. It prides itself that there's no levelling and no random. So like in fighting games, all tools are available to you nearly right away. But online play is still - a reward for beating a short campaign. And well, shooters measure you for the first few matches against ai too. Fighting games should be doing the same! Even more applicable to fighters, the falloff of newbies is crazy. They might think something's wrong with the game, if they're matched against pros right away.
It's uhh, called onboarding.
USF4 having voice chat led me to meeting a lot of cool people.
i just wish games had better chat options that you can opt in for to avoid abuse for people who cant handle it. being able to say your ggs and ask a question or give advice would go a long way. it needs to be fast and convenient to use though or else no one will use or even notice it like in Strive.
When your home alone by yourself, it's only you. Only you to blame.
Fantastic video
Proper defensive and balance mechanics help a lot
As much as the "finding Discord servers to get a better experience" would help for other people, it has honestly been the worst advice for me. I play BlazBlue Central Fiction, it's really the only FG I play left and some of the BBCF servers on that list you posted I'm banned from because I'm considered the reincarnation of Lucifer by certain people that made lies and BS and sadly it's the majority to some of the people in there. The last server I was apart of was a small group server for people that wanted to get better and it was literally ridiculous with how many people were so toxic, hypocritical and not helping when it came to giving out advice, I was getting so many different answers for trying to get better and it was just such a headache. The owner of the server claimed that the server is for those who can escape the realm of complete degeneracy or stupidity of other players but she was always the first to talk mess and even claimed herself as "God" and a "high level player", her amongst others basically can say and do whatever they want but when I did it, it was "uncalled for" or "ego centric" and considered the end of the world for them. I called them out on their hypocrisy and then I got banned from it and got blocked by her. I shouldn't have to deal with that if a Discord is the way to have a better experience in a game, it saddens me because BlazBlue the series I always loved not because of how fun the game is but also for it's characters and lore it builds up is now attracting a bunch of children
So basically I have to find friends. But I play fighting games precisely because I have no friends :(
Honestly, the intimacy angle of fighting games as was alluded to by Bahktanians might've had something to do with why I fell off of KI2013 so hard. Was during the "Infinite Ultras" era where people could essentially keep you from going back to the matchmaking lobby for a good 3 to 5 minutes just by whiffing their Ultra in the right place(mostly on Hisako, I know other chars had infinite loops) and starting another one.
Had one night where somebody started in on that shit, I got up, went to hit the head, refilled my drink, _and made a bag of popcorn_ only to come back and have to watch three more loops of the Ultra that I was locked in when I got up before the guy finally dropped his combo. I think that was the last match I played, 'cause I was **mad as shit** seeing that, and I couldn't tell why it was possible, or who would even do some shit like that as a sporting competitor-- and that trying to sort out the motive was only pissing me off more til I just uninstalled and went back to MK.
Great video but I will say that finding sparring partners isn’t necessarily going to fix all of these problems, and brings a lot of problems on its own. Me and my friends played smash ultimate competitively with each other all throughout high school, and we all got pretty damn good at it. The problem that kept coming up when I’d fight someone at a tournament is that all this time I hadn’t been training to beat people, I had been training to beat my friends. They didn’t have super unorthodox strategies or anything, but the habits and tells of my friends kept being something I’d look for when fighting other people and never consistently find, since they’re a different person. This isn’t just to knock discord groups or anything, I’m sure with the fluid nature of a discord server you’d probably find more success than in a friend group of like eight people, but keep in mind that not everything is going to carry over if improving and doing good at tournaments is your goal.
If that’s not your goal then do whatever the fuck you want lol
i began playing tekken little more than a year ago.
i don't really agree with the statement that mechanical, knowledge doesn't tie in to new people not wanting to play. I have a bunch of friends that play at parties, want to play or quit pretty fast.
they all say the issue is the mechanical skill floor that is too high, and not understanding wtf is going on 90% of the time with over a 100 moves.
League doesn't have that issue cuz every champion only has 4 moves including some passive. the game is also easy to learn during gameplay, and not use time to train in some solo practice mode (i know you talked about a few of my points, really great video btw!)
in general.
people tend to have fun even when losing if they understand what they lose to. people need to feel like they have a decent chance at winning, even if they don't.
It's only natural that you would disagree. Rubbish's 'arguments' all revolve around the three 'talking points' that they considered to be invalid at the start of this very video: a lack of learning tools (community), mechanical strictness (lack of control), knowledge requirements (Lei Wulong vs Valorant character). It took them 16 minutes to say "go to a local" while also perfectly describing WHY someone wouldn't find locals to be fun and rewarding with their boxing analogy. Incredible. In summation, this video was hilariously contradictory and ignored singleplayer content as a factor for player onboarding/retention while ignoring that Online issues only *highlighted* inherent problems that also exist offline.
So I think the point that what you're talking about is sportmanship, which is the way that player conduct themselves so that has an opportunity for fun interactions.
For example, often in tournaments when two players playing the same low tier character woulf face off against each other, they would do a taunt at the beginning of the round to show that they are part of the same "team/ community"
My idea for introducing sportmanship back into online ranking is to split the playerbase intwo 3 arbitrary factions, maybe east, west, and central. This way every ranked match isn't against. If you fight an enemy faction, you gain rank points for a win but you opponent also loses rank points, a neutral faction is that you gain rank points for a win, but your opponent doesn't lose anything, and lastly fighting a friendly gains both players ranked points, and they have the ability to catch with each other after the friendly match.
Even if matchmaking would be perfectly fair - just by nature of online play, you'd be feeling like it's not.
You never get to see how much opponent is struggling. Some games don't even have easy way to chat with them after game to discuss whatever happened, give/ask for advice.
Just relax, let the waves of matchmaking carry you, and practice the thing you want.
After all, rank position is measuring RELATIVE skill for players. I may be in bronze/wood/dirt league, but I'm still better than 20% of game's playerbase. for example.
(I may be repeating a point from the video, but whatever. Out of many card games I played, there's global chat in just 2. And in both it's such a great thing!)
More communication for the people!
Grappling characters Vs the ones who use guns
And that's why in quake or starcraft it's incredible disrespectful to not say GG after the game. Those are genres that exist online since late 90s
Not going to lie depending on my mindset. I’d get pissed off when people ki charge, t bag and or leave ll after they win 1 match in tekken. When I win I give them the run back regardless . Moreso for more points to win. Lol but also to learn that characters moves and then a change to learn
man. i looked at the thumbnail and half-assumed the video would be complaining about the mechanical loss of control during hitstun. i was really ready to be disappointed with an overplayed take, but i really should have known better.
this video makes a very good point, and one i hadn't deeply thought about before. about halfway through the video, i thought about leaving a comment praising so-called 'discord fighters' for funneling players into an experience which is fundamentally more enjoyable, since the social presence alleviates the issues noted in this video significantly. but you essentially beat me to it! i can confirm, being able to communicate reliably with your opponent- and especially audibly speak- is a huge help in managing both players' emotional reactions to the game, as well as in retaining the control over the circumstances of your play. for example, many people are entirely willing to switch to one of the other characters they play when asked, especially if they're winning either way. if you want someone who's alting to play their main, or if you want specific practice against a particular character, or even just that individual's playstyle with one character, it can help a lot.
thank you for once again making a video saying something that had to be said.
ur onto something here. control. queuing ranked is so random compared to any other game/hobby. also there needs to be a forced ft5 mode, like if u win 4 and u disconnect, ur opponent wins. look at how much time ONE moba game takes. or potentially one R6 siege/csGO game. its stupid to think your community can feel good learning the game, after ONE GAME (potentially 4min 57sec gametime MAX) we need longer sets, and i know lobbies are meant to remedy that, but finding someone on ur level is an issue. everytime i even LOOK at lobbies in any fighting game, its people BEYOND my level entirely, or the lobby has more than one person. im not sitting in a lobby to take a turn, then wait again, thats insane. a que for longer sets in rollback would fix so much of this randomness, as even if u lose 2-3 games u could adjust mid-set.
Vortexes: yeah let’s make this a one player game
3:21 ideal
So all fighting games should have voice chat in matches?
So based in this Video Spending all the your time in the Lab practicing Combos you saw in CZcams as if it was an never ending Combo Challenge mode with 1 or 2 characters, and almost never going to other modes like arcade, story, rank, and lobbies at top of never practicing footsies and/or labbing specific scenarios is a legitimate way to play fighting games? ykw, that sounds like a fun 60hrs for me like a choreographed tricking simulator. And a lot less stressful that rank. Joining a discord for help and fun facts could be fun too.
Very good points. This is probably why playing with friends feels better anyway.
Friends are a goated concept.
i love fighting games
Babe wake up, the best content creator made a video😳
Could you give some examples of these games that "funnel you towards a bad experience" ?
I'm struggling to think of any.
People who are stuck in bronze in SFV
@@eddypoo22 I understand that is frustrating, but I don't think SF5 funnels you into ranked, it has casual mode and lobbies and a decent amount of single player stuff (nowadays at least), so if you are stuck in bronze, there are ways to enjoy the game without worrying about what rank you are. Any other games you can think of?
All i really got from this is that casuals just rage.
People don't know how to appreciate fighting games individually through the 1P modes anymore. Things have changed.
What's the song you used at the beginning of the video?
I lvoed it! I started playing fgs on a crappy 2 players pandora box stick and the connection between humans was great. Online it feels like everyone is moking me when winning and angry at me when losing. I much much prefer to play on discord servers
Agreed, talking between matches and insane plays made by opponents makes it feel better
Me and cousin play tekken 7 all the time and I win about 90% of the time. We dun had arguments/ fights over them cause one of us got salty or moreso he got tired of losing. But yet he’d still come back to play a day or two later though, that feeling for him to want to beat me and bonding as we chat about random shit. The thing is… I’m only a few months more seasoned than him coming to playing fighting games. But I watch and been watching people play all kind of fighting games that I kind of learned to adopt and remember to use those tactics for me to win. Even when I use characters he uses or random characters he’d be like “damn bro you’re just good with everyone” though for the most I’m spamming out moves to learn and adapt in real time I still have the understanding from me watching others play and use spacing, punishes and other things that gives me the edge to win. Only been playing fighting games for a year and moreso only came to because call of duty veen going to shit and had to branch out. Lol tho I don’t play too too often I’d rather play tekken with him or online at times than other games.. that feeling of knowing you’re adapting/ getting better and especially winning is a high. I’m only a yellow rank vindicator in tekken with only about 40 matches. Regardless. Great video!
Fighting games are 100% competitive it's a genre. Why would you expect anything else? You go out to swim and expect to fly?
My sparring partner is a King main, jokes on me
I personally don't enjoy faceless sparring partners from Discord anymore than random matchmaking. If I can play with actual friends then I can have the social experience you described.
I think the idea is that you can attempt to make the faceless Discord people into your friends.
WOO ARIS
I am a simple consciousness, I see rubbish upload, I watch and click like
I can't do a Hadouken that is the only frustrating part about fighting games
I guess for me it's a bit different since I never REALLY had any issue playing online. Yet I did notice ALL the problems with a lot of modern fighters have been because of online. Either it just wasn't good for play outside of JP/SK or had some weird gimmicks where it just wasn't pure gameplay. People REALLY just want to a solid lobby where they can run the hands with their homies. THAT'S the online people really want. Since I know MOBAs you cannot even get into ranked without putting in work versus bots, ranked is fighters is WHY a lot of people get so angry. They want "casual" matches but they playing "ranked".
Fighting games are meant to be played in person so if somebody's new you can teach them actively how to do something. Which is how and why there's the ability to have 2 players in pratice mode online. Yet I don't see people really use it. Fighting games' flaw is like it gives players everything they kinda need more than ever. Yet the player has to want to use what they have. If they don't use it they're most likely gonna get angry and leave.
I never thought about a lot of points in this video.
I used to go to SSBM tournaments awhile back and maybe there was some reform by then, but I remember always hearing how toxic the FGC was beforehand only to find out that I saw just about none of it when in person.
I remember when smash ultimate was fairly new, some friends had their own tournament, just for fun, annd... didn't know I played Smash a lot beforehand.
One of them was exceptionally not thrilled with how I was playing, but I actually realized something mid match. His character, Young Link, could barely even cover platforms with anything in his moveset, but he had chosen to play on battlefield vs me, as wolf, who just covers platforms by accident if not just by existing. I explained this after the match and the next time he lost a round to someone else, he went to FD and did much better.
I'm probably a bit of a dick for entering that tournament though.
NEW RUBBISH VIDEO WOOOOO
I don't know, I really enjoy online play against randoms. But to each their own.
Our individual experiences are of course not all going to match up, but I think these systems could be made way less frustrating without losing much in the transition.
ZvT stands for Zerg vs Traitor Stormtrooper
❤
Good games don’t necessarily force frame data.
3:49 gulity
👍
Ah, so that's why I hate solo q-ing in mobas. I get everyone picking my overwatch main and then I have to pocket Amari carry these dps scubs.
Also I do feel happier when I play for honor with a buddy. Fighting is intimate and making light of bs strangers do to me is conducive to happiness.
Here's every fighting game:
-spend millions on making the game
-make it as obtusive and inaccessible as possible. Even enabling frame data so players can study where their hitboxes are, rather than using the character models to indicate these hitboxes like they're supposed to
-clutter the screen and ruin readability with like 4 assist characters on screen at once with lasers and particle effects and backgrounds and non active characters all using the same color palette with the same luminosity and saturation values.
-99% of players fall off and stop playing because 90% of play time is just waiting around while you or your opponent do simon says and execute the same string of buttons. The only 10% that has gameplay is during footsies. But instead of just avoiding combos and making single touches do a bunch of damage and knockback, we make 2 combos win the entire match.
-high level characters perform bad against grapplers and rage about them because they keep them from doing their simon says to win combo strategy, despite that grapplers hold onto their foes for a fraction of the time that a striker does. As a result, grapplers go straight to S tier viability.
-sell outrageously expensive pay to win characters that are better than all the others and require 0 effort to play
Hey, alright.