How NOT To Learn A Fighting Game
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2024
- #streetfighter #fgc #combos
Combo trials are an important part of the process of learning a fighting game. And while they've evolved over the years, they still don't do enough in my opinion. Trying games like TrackMania has shown me that there's still plenty of room to grow and ideas to explore!
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Chapters
00:00-Intro
01:25- Learning Styles
05:55- Who Is This For?
09:37- Learning Skills
13:22- Guilty Gear Strive
14:53- TrackMania/Feedback
BGM
3rd Strike- Instrumental Theme
3rd Strike- Jazzy NYC '99
Skullgirls- Class Notes
MBTL- Dive. Diver. Divest.
MBTL- Ta-No-Mo-U
Capcom Vs SNK- Sakazaki Stage Theme
KOF 2000- Inner Shade
SF3 2nd Impact- Crowded Street Hong Kong
Guilty Gear- In Slave's Glory
JJBA HF- Mariah's Theme
En aften ved svanefossen - Hry
Combo trials remind me of that infamous "Techniques on how to punch and strike fast Method One" video and its comment:
"What if my opponent has arms?"
Yeah the art of throwing attacks is different on the art of how to use those said attacks in a fight
Yeah, I train box and I could compare the learning all the punches and how to throw them to learning to do all the notes on an instrument. You'll need them of course, but by themselves they don't do much. Now, learning how to use the punches when the openings show up, while moving and defending against a real opponent, that's when the real learning of the art starts. Just like when you start to learn how to make music with the notes you learned.
Fr
Those comments are only funny when they are genuine, nowadays you see all the same people trying to be funny and it just got boring
Everyone is wired differently. Personally i find it better to know my moves then figure out how to use them. Rather than fighting blind.
Personally I find that I spend some time doing some of the xrd combo trials and end up forgetting the combos afterwards. I can literally think of one combo that I remember how to do
Yeah, Xrd trials are a whole other beast
I find myself to be more interested in flashy inefficient combos and experimenting so the best thing I get from combo trials starting off is actually what moves pair well with which. It gives me a sense of direction to where my fingers should travel to next on my controller and opens up another route I would have never thought before.
I think combo trials and tutorials in general sets a good basis for mechanics everyone should understand about the game from the developers point of view, instead of being muddled or confused in conversations. It's better to have the clearest and most composed answers about your character and mechanics in-game instead of having to look around for resources.
I think it's really important to immediately try something you've just learned in a real scenario in order to establish it. So possibly instead just running through the trials, do one & go into training or a match & try to accomplish that said combo specifically
I can think of a couple Sin's far slash rc confirm combo is good and most of Slayer's combos are optimal too.
You just have to practice and make it memory
This is one of those things that once made me believe that I could never really be good at fighting games. If part of winning is doing this specific series of inputs on command, and I have to try for half an hour to do it once successfully, staring at the list on the side, then obviously I'll always lose to a player who can do it reliably, right? Which, presumably, is everyone "serious" about it. But I can play fighting games. I can make decisions, react, plan things on the fly, and predict what my opponent is doing. As I get comfortable with a character, I start stringing moves together as well. Playing matches is fun and educational. A combo trial will just tell me I'm wrong. Crap, gotta start over again!
Wow that was oddly beautiful.
Woah, maybe I might have this problem without realizing it. I did "grow up" with combo trials, but now I've noticed I shut down if the specific conditions to pull off a combo isn't presenting itself, or worse my opponent literally never lets it happen. I'm gonna start just playing the game to learn it instead of thinking I need super specific combos. Cuz a sad truth of mine is that I only ever play the trials for fighting games now instead of fighting online...
A combo trial is good for one thing and one thing only. Proving that a particular combo is possible. Possible, but not necessarily feasible.
This is why i love smash bros, combos come naturally they’re not a necessity
@@_zealos_8213within any fighting game I’ve found it’s best to just play for awhile before you start training just to get a feel of the gameplay/characters/stages etc. good game sense without specific combos will take you further than combos with no game sense will, it isn’t until you start facing players with both game sense and combos that it starts to really matter
There’s one thing I noticed with my friends who are new to fgs do in combo trials. They tend to not even look at the characters themselves and just hit the direction and buttons on the list as it scrolls down.
It’s such an odd thing because they can finish most of the trials but they never remember them because they kinda don’t know how it looks in a real match because they are too busy staring at the combo list lol.
Bro yes this! I do this when breezing through trials and it's such a bad habit for understanding anything. I wish I remembered this while making the video cuz it's actually the biggest problem I have with that first Kyo combo. His rekka is so layered and many moves share parts of the animations, but if you were to just use the in game resources to make sense of it, it would take days
I mean… what are we supposed to be paying attention to? We don’t have a clue what the strategy looks like.
The stats are hidden most of the time, there aren’t items, or weapons, or short-term goals realized over the course of a game, at least as far as we recognize them.
So… what are we meant to look at? Is how long a punch is supposed to be particularly impactful when most of the moves look… basically the same without the context of what a fighting game’s mechanics actually are?
I’m not saying this to be inflammatory. I genuinely don’t know where to look, here. I’ve been trying to get into the genre on and off for about a decade now, and recently I just kinda went cold on them, convinced there really isn’t any depth accessible to me here.
I would love to be proven wrong.
@@CurlyHairedRogue Nah I hear you, it's kind of an issue with the design. Like with counter hits in most games just looking like normal hits. Realistically, you should be able to look and tell the difference. Lots of games are fixing things like that to be more accessible.
In sports, I did track and Long jump was my best event. The thing that changed my approach to it the most was when my coach told me to not look at the line. I've practiced my approach hundreds of times, I should know where my feet are. Therefore, I shouldn't need to look at the line. Looking there directs my attention from what I'm actually trying to do, which is jump further.
Combo trials should help us achieve the same effect. Your attention shouldnt be on the text on the side, it should be on the character to see what they're doing and truly absorb it. But that takes time, and practice as well as some understanding of the game itself. I wish I could say more to answer your question but YT comments just arent the place
@Sasha Lemay whoa I love this analogy! That's a great way to put it. This was obviously something you've thought about a good amount lol. Thanks for sharing this and I might use this analogy in the future with your permission (and you'll be credited lol)
@@CurlyHairedRogue Oh I've been in the same spot as you for years before. What fixed it for me was realizing that the people who make these videos don't understand my style of learning and were inspired to "play the game" rather than my "do cool stuff in the game". So when I lab out an optimal combo, and I get joy from that, they go "no no no bad bad bad not in match" and then I try a match and don't have fun, because... I don't enjoy mind games and footsies and whiff punishes and jump ins and empty jump throws and fuzzy overhead mixups- I enjoy hitting my opponent with 2A in whatever anime game I'm playing and dealing a sh*t ton of damage because I got it like that and they just don't 😂.
I remember teaching my brother sf3, I had him do the oe trials and even though Akumas trials are easy, he couldn't use it in game. He started getting alot better when I told him to stick to cr:medium>short tastu>fierce dp. Once he learned his opening he instantly got better.
Keeping it simple will always be king in fighting games
that was actually my first sf combo. I still have it baked into my muscle memory
This is why the Lesson Mode in Rival Schools for the PS1 is a stellar fighting game tutorial: It doesn't make you learn combos specific to each character, it makes you learn the core fundamentals of how fighting games work. And it's all broken down into easy to digest sections built for learning.
There's 6 Lessons with 5 sections in each lesson, built around a core theme. For example, Lesson 1 is built around basic movement and attacks, while Lesson 2 is built around defense and recovery options.
However, instead of assuming you've mastered an input after you do it once, you can't clear a section until you complete 10 inputs that the game tells you to do, stressing repetition and ingraining how the moves look and feel to the player. There's usually multiple actions in a section as well, like Light and Heavy attacks in the same section, and the game tells you how to perform each action before the section starts. Furthermore, each section is graded based on how fast you complete it, how fast your reaction time is to the commands, and how accurate your moves are.
You won't get an S rank for a section until you're able to pull off these basic moves by sheer instinct, which is the speed and precision you need for an actual fight, and the game shows where and how you need to improve on each section. And the final section of each Lesson is a final exam where you have to do 10 *random* inputs that were already taught to you by the rest of the Lesson. These final exams are still graded, and test just how well you've instinctually mastered the moves in each Lesson.
All of the Lessons build off of each other as well. Mastering basic movement and attacks in Lesson 1 gives you the framework to learn defensive options in Lesson 2, then basic combos in Lesson 3 after mastering defense, which naturally leads to Supers and Counterattacks in Lesson 4. And this means in Lesson 5 when the game asks you to do Counter into Super, you've already mastered each individal step of that process by itself, you just have to put it all together for what the game wants.
All the sections in Lesson 6 are built to cover everything you've already learned, but with randomized commands per section so you have to quickly react to what the CPU is doing with the appropiate action. And finally the last part of Lesson 6 isn't a tutorial at all, it's a Combo Lab: Deal 30 hits to the CPU as fast as possible. You're free to do whatever you want here, the game doesn't care how you do it, but it's *still grading you*, so you're finally free to go creative mode on the CPU until you've mastered your own style now that you've mastered all the fundamentals.
Lesson Mode touches all the points you made with the other sucessful fighting game tutorials you mentioned, and I've basically been spoiled by it when picking up new fighting games since I haven't found something that comes close to how well Rival Schools did it's tutorial.
tldr: You're right, fighting game tutorials can do better, they have done better, and should do better.
The weirdest part about these modes to me is, as you've said, so many games have gotten it right. And even if they didn't they were closer than a lot of games out today.
Having a combo tutorial made specifically for a character is fine cus it helps u see what the character has to offer. I think they should jus take away the combo inputs once u start doing the combo to force u to actually learn it. U fuk up and reset, its back on ur screen so u can look it over again, u start it again and it goes away so ur focused on actually looking at the people
In the last blazblue game you also had individual tutorials for characters which teached you what the character is all about.
Thats why I think Strive's tutorial is so good, because it actually makes an effort to teach you when certain moves are useful. The move list also comes with accurate descriptions and a video showing how it works
I'm not usualy a fighting game player and the tutorial from gg strive really is so good! From a total noob it's really cool to get the hand on, I still suck at the game but at least I can get into it and understand a character with it
It mentions that throws can be avoided simply by jumping and I think that's the only official fighting game tutorial I've ever seen say that.
This is how I felt learning combos in Dbfz / Tekken 7.
Once I entered a match I realized, I didn't know any blockstrings, safe pokes, etc.
I would freeze up and default to mashing, due to not understanding the fundamental contexts.
Block strings aren't really a deal in Tekken 7 like they are in DBFZ. But I will agree that Tekken can train you wrong in so many different ways. I blame it mostly on treasure battle. The computer is so stupid that it will let you get away with the chunkiest damaging moves you can do with little to no feedback or retaliation or block punishment. And for a game that is fundamentally more about defense than any other besides SC 6, that is just terrible.
Bruh u just said u only learned to do combos of course u would suck fighting games isn t just doing combos
@@lordmoncef5494 I mean when ur first getting into a fighting game all u think u need is combos pretty common mistake
the two 'most opposite' fighting games ever.
@@lordmoncef5494 yes, and that's the problem. A noob doesn't know what they're "supposed" to learn, it's then job of the game to deliver a good turorial
When I use combo trials I am rarely trying to learn the combo being taught and more often trying to learn the mechanics of how a character combos. Sometimes I learn things about a characters moves that I wouldn't have realized otherwise. Going through the trials helps me not only get a feel for how certain moves link together, but also can act as a jumping off point for experimentation and optimization. For example I try using different moves in the combo or change their order to see if the combo still works and if it changes the damage. Lastly once I know a combo with a character I have a goal that I can build my game plan around. After all I can't start a combo if I can't land a hit whether it be in neutral or while pressuring, and even if I do land a hit I need to be able to hit confirm.
And that's great! I said it in the video and maybe I should've been a bit clearer but this video is mostly about the experience of newer players to a game.
From how you talk about trials, you've played a few different kinds of FGs and understand how to break them down by components like links, juggles, and you're aware of the weight system mechanics have. New players don't have most of that and they're concerned with just the first steps of what you described.
That's why I'm challenging us to change our perspective because I think it'll help us help new players
Literally me after I understood how Counter hits and J2K as Slayer in GGXrd.
I like combo trials because it gives you a basis on what’s useable and how it feels. I do think people move on too quickly on trials though. Ideally combos should be able to be done without looking at the move list and at least 4 times in a row on both sides. Atleast for me, this keeps me from face rolling when shit hits the fan.
@@nathanaeljames3059 that's a good idea
I play ggst for the first time and one of the best things ive done is go into training mode with my character and just look at the command list and try to expirement with as many combos as i could come up with. I didnt come up with much but when i did actually practice real combos i immediately started putting pieces together lol.
as an experienced fighting game player and as a dedicated life student, this is an excellent 10/10 video. not even just for fighting games, but for learning in general.
I have been sick to death of "combo tutorials". they can be somewhat useful in helping you figure out what to use if you do a combo, but... the most useful skill in a fighting game.... is the ability to fight. doesn't matter if you can do a 0 to death combo, if you can't fight, you're not gonna be able to land it easily on someone who's actively trying to resist you. but even if you can't combo, if you can fight, you can deal damage even to professional players
if more fighting games taught people how to fight, they'd be interested in fighting. which is the issue, no one's interested in putting in all this work and THEN getting their ass kicked and having no idea why it happened. they're interested in fighting. and for it to be a fight, they need to actually having somewhat of a chance. that comes from knowing how to use the moves as per situation
Amen brother
This is a FACT. I've played fighting games all my life, all the way from Sega Genesis and I'm also a big fan of boxing and MMA. Long flashy combos mean nothing if you don't have a solid foundation to begin with. Sooo many players completely fall apart when they can't land their 0 to death combo because it's all they know. Being able to adjust and adapt to what your opponent is doing will always be number 1 and you gotta know what you're doing to do that. Y'all hit the nail on the head here 🎯🎯🎯
yup
my little brother being 12 is playing the SF6 beta with me & is dealing with that issue
I'm trying to teach him otherwise, but ya.. the game feels pivoting to a lot of stuff
Bro im at an advanced level in my FG of choice and even I forget that sometimes. I thank you for reminding me
Shut up, you're not a casual player
I agree that combo trials definitely aren’t perfect, but one thing I really like about the combo trials I’ve done is how they show the building blocks of a character’s/the system’s combos.
As an example, when I (somewhat) recently tried out enchantress from dnf duel, the game made me do a lot of small, easy to hit combos. But as the trials went on, I saw those same combos in the context of longer ones, giving me insight on a lot of her combo tools at once and how they interact with one another. Her combos also explored the use of microdashes for both combo consistency and screen positioning in a fairly understated way that made me feel accomplished when I noticed and incorporated it.
Combo trials like this make for a good jumping off point as long as you engage with them correctly. An experienced player especially should not look at these combos as optimal ways to damage the opponent, nor should they look at it as simple busy work before they look up their character’s optimal routes. Instead, if they take time to assess why the game is making them do certain combos along with the nuances to how they’re done, I think they can get a more intimate experience with the game/character than if they went on dustloop and copied down every combo there.
As a note, I have been playing fgs for a long time at this point, so I’m not sure how a beginner feels about combo trials or what they take away from it. But like you said in the video, as long as the game gives a breadth of trials in various contexts with sufficient feedback, I think everyone can win in terms of learning from combo trials.
Dnf combo trials are also just really good across the board
I am a beginner and I had the same experience with DNF combo trials where it felt like they were showing me how to piece together combos
hey, the Kyo combo you talked about at around 5:40 is pretty darn practical and serves as an effective teaching tool for getting players comfortable with dream cancels. Chaining one super into a larger super is something every character has access to, and while raw max mode activation may seem impossible to pull off at first glance, theyre always usable after you block a DP, giving you time for a max damage punish.
kyo may have more optimal combos and sequences, but trials are a good way with getting someone comfortable with common strings in those combos and feeling the general routing out
Oh no the issue with it being "practical" is the idea of landing a raw max mode 5 bar combo. It's a good combo to kind of show how max mode works and chaining supers, yeah. But the problem is, you're hardly ever gonna actually land something like this.
Also, as a DP punish, in KOFXV, you've gotta moreso bait the DP than just block it and raw max on reaction. I'm not saying it'll never happen, but this kinda punish is 1/1000 rounds
@@qmanchu its 100/100 will happen if player has infinite MAX 😆
if thats the case then like, why don't they have the trial start with you blocking a DP? same with ch trials - why dont they set the bot to jab after block and have you do a frametrap to get the counter? it's such a missed opportunity to connect a lot of different dots, esp for newer players. ppl shouldn't have to go to a random youtube comment to learn the context for the in-game tutorial, that's just bad teaching
I agree so much with the message of this. Too often I go in the combo trials or look up combos for characters online and wonder "why do I do that move specifically?" It's a big issue that needs to be worked on and solved, and you did an excellent job bringing that exact issue to light
thats why I found 3 things to be key to get better at fgs.
1: You need to watch games of players better than you, with commentary.
2: You should have someone who is capable of telling you what you are doing wrong, so joining a community for X game is vital if you want to get better.
3: You should be consistent with your practice. You cannot practice combos/blockstrings for one day then expect to pull it off in a real game. You can either try to practice them with a real player (sparring partner) who is playing semi seriously for one day, which will engrain them in your head, or practice them consistently in practice mode for days in different situations from different angles.
Doing all of these will undoubtedly help you understand why players do something, as 1 will show you how its demonstrated properly with minimal flaws, similar to how you would want to learn a language from a native speaker; 2 would help you with comparing your bad habits and incorrect execution to the ideal scenario; and 3 helps to apply everything in different scenarios and patterns and/or under pressure.
I always liked combo trials. For me, it's fun to do the execution challenge to fill a page.
When I was a beginner, I used the combo trials to work on my execution. They're probably the least stressful thing to do in a fighting game. You have infinite time to do cool stuff. It's hard for a beginner to do that through normal gameplay. In fact, some games I only play for the combo trials. I really dislike Under Night, but the combos are so flashy and fun I sometimes boot up the game to continue my progress.
Some games do have challenging combos that feel awesome to beat. XRD has ton of unique characters I wouldn't want to play outside of combo mode.
Combo Trials mode is awesome for all the reasons you listed. I love them too. I think they're really only problematic for those who try to learn the game through them
Back when I was trying (and failing) to learn street fighter 4, I was doing the combo trials to get my execution down. An issue was I often had to search for videos on how to "beat" the trials, because the game hadn't explained to me what could cancel and how/when.
My previous fighting game experience was mashing in sf2 on the Mega Drive as a child, so I had no clue canceling was even an option, and I was just trying to press everything in order.
@Matteo Piovanelli oh boy. SF4 trials were certainly not for learning the game, I'll tell you that much lol. Those were messed up
I still go back to UMVC3 combo trials. Tons of fun imo
As someone who doesnt really play fighting games or watches any content about them I was really suprised when I had your video "Whis is mexico so good at king of fighters" But I decided to watch it and really liked it and then saw this video as I thought it might be a good way to get interested in trying out fighting games and I was right, this video and the previous one I watched were really well done even in a way that someone with little knowledge on fighting games ore the community around them could understand and enjoy them. This video is almost 2 weeks old so idk if youre still looking at the comments but I am now pretty interested in trying out a 2d fighting game so I was wondering if anyone who sees this comment would be kind enough to recommend one for a new player, I would be playing on PC if that really affects anything like what games are even available to me or how active that platform is for multiplayer, I was thinking Guilty Gear Strive since the training was praised in the video and I like anime artstyles but I would still like to hear some peoples thoughts and also just wanted to mention how much I liked the two videos I watched and that youre doing a good job at spreading your love of fighting games to others :)
I'd honestly say Street Fighter 6. It's kinda got everything and it'll be new so you'll be starting on equal grounds with a lot of people! It's also got solutions to many of the problems I listed in this video. That said, if you don't wanna pay full price for a new game, GGST is a decent place to start. It really depends on what you're more drawn to. If you want faster, air dashing style combat, or if you want slower, and more deliberate style combat. Both are great but I honestly would have to say SF6 is a better bet for level of entry AND longevity
@@qmanchu alright I’ll probably go with sf6 thanks for the reply and keep up the work I’ll definitely be looking forward to any videos you make on the game :)
@Valducci Enterprises of course! I'm really glad you enjoyed the video! I hoped to reach people like yourself but it can be difficult
@@Vengeful03 I personally learned a lot from Skullgirls. It's also cheap!
Mexico is also amazing at smash as well. There are 2 top 5 players from mexico rn and the region as whole is strong.
Nice video. I will say that with strive being my first fighting game, I still found the mission mode a little confusing. There is just so much information in there and it was hard to know what was important and what wasn't. For me it still feels like just finding a good YT tutorial to get you started on a character/game is the best way to start out which is weird and unfortunate that I have to go outside the game for help
Yeah, the UI is also so messy it's hard to tell what you're even getting into when you jump in. I think as a proof of concept, it's great. But as it stands now, it confuses everyone haha
Strive is also my first fighting game, and I also had some trouble with the trials (I think I dropped them halfway through lol I might give them another try now). But I don't think searching for information/help outside of the game is a sign of failure of the game, not necessarily. The only things I would hold againt developers are tutorial/trials that teach bad habits to the player, or missing too much stuff.
Players will find stuff that the devs missed, and couldn't have possibly added to the game's tutorial/trials before release. Or maybe a lesson will finally "click" on a player's head because of their favorite streamer did it. Personally, I love checking wikis of the games I play and then use that knowledge in-game. Fan content will a lot of times supply what the game doesn't, and in ways developers couldn't possibly do, it's simply how thing are.
I've been playing fighting games at a competitive level for almost 20 years and combo trails have been an interesting topic for new players. Like you said, it's easy to forget a combo once in a match or the situation changes even slightly. Fundamentals should always be the first goal the game is trying to teach you, Stive does a great job at this.
When it comes to trials or new combos, the best results I've had is repetition in training mode and then going straight into matches the with express intent to land that combo. This makes me figure out the best situation for the combo as well as performing it under non-ideal conditions. They sort of do that now with the "Now win this match with what you learned", but it doesn't force you use anything specifically. I think encouraging players leave the training room to try out what you learned and come back afterwards would be a great addition.
Think of it like sparring, you need the knowledge on what to do (training/trials), but then you need the experience to apply what you've learned (fights). "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." sums up exactly what happens to players after learning something new.
I couldn't really agree more. What I really would want trials to do is to spark curiosity and imagination, more than teach. You can't teach a new player EVERYTHING. But you can teach them how to learn your game. The issue is, most games just don't have great resources to learn with. Sometimes you just gotta eat 5 frame traps a game before you can understand what's happening
Seems like the kind of thing a proper story mode might be able to do :p
I saw the chapter "Learning Styles" and thought "oh no" but you avoid the convenient lie. Love your stuff, keep it up, I hope SF6 accelerates your reach!
Totally random: I've heard Skullgirls has good training/trial/learning modes.
Skullgirls does do it very well! I looked into it for this video, TFH too. But I think they're so good they deserve their own video that I'll release in the coming weeks
@@qmanchu Really? If it's on the same level as Rival Schools I might pick that game up and learn it.
I thought the learning styles section was not relevant to the discussion. If some games try to incorporate multiple so-called learning styles into their trials, I don’t see how that detracts anything regardless if it’s a false model of learning. Tekken using audio cues doesn’t make the combos harder to learn, for example.
@DeathScyther006 I'm not saying necessarily that it detracts from what those trials do but rather, it's the reason so many trials and tutorials don't nail the Full Picture of actually teaching players what tools they need to succeed. Also to dispel the myth because many to this day still think it's true
I'm a fan of making my own combos as well as learning my opponent's style of approach. Trials help but definitely a tool instead of a way of life. Get in their heads and have fun no matter what 🎉
I think that's why i took to platform fighters first at a high level instead of more conventional fighters. It felt organic, then the technical nature took over later
Same! Pretty much wanted to take up traditional fighters after playing Smash for countless hours and it kinda taught me a good chunk of the approach toward such games.
I think the simplicity is also important. Most of the time I'm too preoccupied nailing the weird inputs in a combo trial to actually internalise how to apply it even if the game tells me. It leaves me with enough knoeledge to deal with average cpu, but only a surface level of understanding of actual strategies, so I don't get far in multiplier modes.
This reminds me of a moment in Blazblue Chronophantasma where I was learning Tsubaki Yayoi and one SPECIFIC combo was outdated due to changes to her frame data. So it was never able to be completed and because of that dissapointment, I actually gave up on the trials and in turn eventually, on her.
I can see how players new to fighting games in general would find a video like this helpful, me playing Tekken semi seriously pretty late in the scene was super rough and wish I had something like this to help me get started. Sadly had to figure it out myself from countless online matches and some CZcams videos for help but Tekken honestly does a great job with their combo samples, which teaches you the basic fundamentals of starting a character's combos and what can chain into the combos. It's just a lot of practice and learning the game in general that leads to you having fun with it, and this applies to all fighting games.
These videos help me get more invested in getting good at FGs and are gonna be very useful notes moving forward as I try to compete
I'm so happy to see the Granblue trials brought up here, I still believe they're the best character trials/ tutorial ever put in a fighting game, and even though I've been playing fighting games my whole life pretty much, I only really started to pick up on and understand the deeper and more competitive side of fighting games in a better way after playing through Granblue's trials!
My first 2D fighter was MK11, which doesn’t have combo trials. Funny enough, it instead has some of the best explanations on how the game mechanics work together and how to build combos (*kombos).
That and they added frame data, move types, descriptions, and a bunch of info in the move list section to actually help you the first time you play.
I never even knew combo trials existed. I just looked up one or two combos on the internet (which explained why I used each move) & figured out some of my own combos.
Truly excellent video including the debunking of the “learning styles” thing. Chefs kiss
This is crazy. I just had my 7 year old nephew try DBFZ combo trial. Let's just say it didn't go well 🤣
good shit big dog. cant wait to see more from you. i do have to say that it was a very strange stylistic choice to not feature the audio from the tekken clip @2:33 but its minor in the grand scheme of things. also really liked the callback to trackmania. +1
Lmao yeah it was more of a pacing thing. Total transparency, I cut the video down like 5 or 6 minutes because it felt too long.
Very possible that I cut too much but hey, I'm still learning. Thanks for watching!
i like seeing that people are interested in improving the state of things for absolute beginners
Really glad strive has the player made combo trials that tell you what kind of scenarios to use certain combos in, it really helped my I-No improve, not by leaps and bounds or anything(coz I’ve more or less just stated learning her), but it did help me feel like I actually had options in certain scenarios
The fact that SFV's old trials _aren't up to date with the game anymore_ really bugged me as a new player. They were the only ones I was capable of doing and they rewarded fight money so I thought it'd be a good idea to do them even if I picked up some bad habits, but it confused me so hard when I went into a match and couldn't get Balrog's down-up charge move to come out. I thought I was just bad at it but _actually_ the move uses a DP input now!
How difficult is it, really, to change them along with ongoing patches?
I get that it is probably a lot of effort to reimplement a training sequence when something gets changed, but this stuff is also really important and shouldn't be neglected like that.
@@marzipancutter8144 Yeah, compared to all the work that goes into every patch, character, etc, it really doesn't seem like too much to ask for trials to be updated when inputs change and combos no lomger work :/ just one of those things that would make the new player experience that bit better!
I know the devs have a lot on their plate, and as i understand, most are doing great work on the mechanics, updates and patches. But as a new player really learning about how to "properly" get into fighting games, the idea that there is an outdated trial in any game where you learn a thing that actually doesn't work anymore, seems insane to me. 😐
This is exactly how I’m learning Goldlewis. Finding the building blocks of his combos rather than looking for full, drawn out sequences
I love that you end the video with an inspiring statement and music just a Wirtual video.
Wirtual was a huge inspiration for me to start doing video essays. Had to make one shouting him out haha
Love the channel, just getting into fighting games and really enjoying your content.
Great video, i'm playing fighting games since +30 years and i never play trials mode, or even training, i find the first anoying and boring and the latest useless unbearably boring, the first time i looked at a training mode and though it was well made was Skullgirl's one and every game took lessons from it, this game defenitely deserve more recognition imo. That behing said i totaly agree with everything things you said; it's definitely a great job you did here. Bravo, Merci and keep that shit up!
for me, remembering combos works best if i can find some kind of rythm with the button presses
Same i have to feel them
Thank you for sharing, you're one of my favorite creators as of late
Great work producing this video, must've been a lotta prep! Making combos is one area where we could develop much better tools in the community, since many devs don't put much effort into their trials.
Thanks! And yeah that's kinda the problem. It wouldn't take much effort to fix a lot of these issues. Effort is where it's at.
Also I'm a huge fan of the work you guys are doing too so keep it up!
LET'S GO TRACKMANIA THE DETERMINISTIC RACING GAME
Edit: he ended the video with THE song
don't have to hit 623 brake just to deaccelerate either
Lmao I love this analogy
@@qmanchu TY :)
Great explanation. I demo'd something similar to a friend of mine who was sick of losing to me, and blamed it on my ability to use combos (which he wasn't very good at). Basically I beat him only using basic non-directional attacks, simply because I played patient and punished anything unsafe, while only poking in neutral. Understanding game state (neutral, advantage, disadvantage) and how to flow between them is far more useful than drilling huge combos with difficult openers, and he actually improved a lot after that. Unfortunately this principle is one that few games actually teach in-game
Just bought GBFV:R and im so reassured in my purchase now after watching this lmao. cant believe that's the game you talked about doing it right, so glad i picked it up
Hahaaaa~ fell into the trap of wanting to show Trackmania footage and resorting to a press forward only map. 📸
Anyways awesome video idea, it's super fun to watch people progressively get better at the game in their own way after I recommend it to them. I started off with an old game (MBBAACC) which definitely gave me a kickstart in consistent inputting but it definitely took much longer for me to get acclimated...
Oh don't worry, it wasn't a trap! I did so because it shows how simple the game actually is! I knew what I was doing 😉
Nothing is more simple than holding forward haha
@@qmanchu heh yea, I was kind of swept off my feet when I first learned that trackmania was "deterministic" which kind of just opened up my eyes to the idea of a skill based racing game. Great analogy ( ´◡‿ゝ◡`).
@Oddly Even I played it for the first time for this video and it blew me away how good it actually is. I've had to resist binging it instead of working on my videos!
Often in combo trials, you have to learn multiple different combos for different situations. This is the reason why I started using combo trials as a suggestion, rather than a book of hard rules. I learn a combo from a combo trial that looks promising, and I find a way to make it work for every situation. If it doesn't, I modify the combo until it does.
I have a soft spot for video essays... but this one is TRULY amazing! Great work!
I love this video, or atleast because it cements what I’ve been telling myself. I’ve picked up (1 month) guilty gear strive with friends and it’s been a blast but didn’t actually do the tutorial… It is great and coming back I would HIGHLY recommend it for beginners. Although through Lots and Lots of trial and error I’ve now begun reading and making quick decisions in matches. And although I still mess up an overdrive here and there I’ve really started to learn the basics. In conclusion I just wanted to say that I whole heartedly agree with your stance on combos, although I will still probably try to do it once or twice. ❤ great informative video for beginners and maybe veterans although I wouldn’t know.
i do the trials to learn how the character works if i’m truly struggling to figure out how they work even from just being in training mode. i only would remember the base of the combo and i’d go to training mode to add my own spin to it
Great video! It's not just combo trials though. Fighting games on average do a terrible job of teaching how play. Heck, most of them don't even teach you the concept of frame advantage which is the core mechanic of the game. How can you expect to attract new players easily when you don't teach them the core mechanics of the game?
Frame advantage is a lot harder for people to realize. Like atm I'm playing strive. The meaty I'm using get even more + when they block on wake up it. See if the game were to teach them it would say "Hey if you block this explosion move and run!" But the way I use it is they'll get jailed into another hit. So should the game tell them to sit there and block or to evade? It's never black and white answers. Which is why it's much much much harder to teach players. You especially don't want to mislead players which these trials can do because these games are way more complex then we emphasize.
czcams.com/video/YJ7UH8nbB3I/video.html
Like this clip is impossible to teach. It's literally impossible. If you can explain to me why EVERYONE needs to learn this GAME WINNING technique I'll trust you. But atm there's simply no answer that works.
This clip is a great example of how abstract fighting games are. Like you mentioned using time as a resource, using your life as one is possibly even crazier to comprehend.
Instead of trials trying to teach players about frame data and how to counter aegis, I'm proposing something like we've seen in SF6. The frame advantage bar they have is incredible but, if the game doesn't teach the players how to use it, then it might as well not be there.
I'd hope for an in depth break down of what you can use it for, to hopefully get new players to use it to answer questions they'll naturally find during the game.
This is awesome, bro invaded my feed with KOF, Trackmania, and a Korone clip.
Absolute algorithmic godsend
Also, the outro theme does not go unappreciated 😂
Very good analysis. Fighting game makers really need to take note of the principles you're discussing here because in my opinion this is the single most important factor to the long term health of the genre.
Not teaching the full range of mechanics is such a problem, if you don't teach how to use my full set of tools and open an opponent up (or even just get into attack range on them) then you're not even going to be able to try and use the combo for real. Definitely need to be teaching block strings, mix ups, and things that a normal person can actually react confirm to. There's got to be ways they can set up automated practice for these things if you can go in and record things to practice against, but of course you need to know what you're trying to practice to do that. I'm really interested to see how SF6's apparent approach to teaching the game through the single player content pans out and if it's successful. Fighting games do seem to have a problem with organic progression and being able to learn all the tech and nuance just by playing, maybe some of the ideas they showed for the single player will be a step in that direction.
BTW Strive does have the same problem as SFV has where combo trials may be outdated and not work, it defaults to pulling up combos that may not be on the same version of the game unless you specifically toggle for that. I do wish Strive's tutorials also gave you some additional info on some of the really specific requirement tech, there's ones I never would have figured out why it wasn't working the way the game wanted (even while sometimes connecting) without seeking outside info.
Unexpected Korone
Amazing video!
Tahnk you so much!
In a similar vein to the matchup trials you mentioned in the video, Guilty Gear AC+R on PC introduced an option where you can take over the controls during a replay to find ways to improve games you've already played. It's a really cool learning tool, and I think it could even be expanded upon to create custom matchup trials in the same vein as Strive's custom combo trials. I can actually see that being a fun and versatile mode where players not only show off gameplay highlights, but also purposefully engineer situations to teach new players skills and punishes, provide puzzle-like challenges for skilled players, and maybe even recreate notable tournament scenarios.
Yeah Theory Fighter did a great video on that feature and I agree with you. It's possibly the most important feature to come out in the last 10 years
i found strive to be the most annoying in it's mission mode, forcing all of them to be repeated 5 times makes the easy ones tedious and the difficult ones even more frustrating. same with the unclear objective trials like 'get x amount of hits/damage/health steal' since they just tell you that it's possible but no way of how to get there
I like trials as a jumping off point where you see what the game thinks the character does and then you take that and implement it into what you can do.
also while the strive custom trials is a great feature that really every game should have, i dont use it since the menus and navigation for it is so terrible
Yeah it's by no means perfect but it's a great start. Also I agree, the UI for the combo trials is abysmal. To this day, I don't think I navigate it correctly
Trials are just that, trials. In my mind, it's a test of your game/character knowledge and execution. They are never meant to be a learning experience for me, I'd go look up b&b combos for practical combos for beginner. That could be hard for the game devs to predict unless they are making the game extremely limited in some ways. The practical solution is to allow user-submitted trials online for people to download and play, and community could come up with trial combos that are suitable for beginners to learn.
I wouldn't say they're never meant to be a learning experience. In tons of games they are. Granted, that's mostly a new thing. But don't you find it strange that you have to go to a resource outside of the game to learn something as integral as a BnB combo? I don't think it's hard for the devs to know what BnBs will be in their games. We see games like Uni literally incorporate combos pro players use into their trials. I think Melty Blood does something similar.
The main reason mostly seems to be that it requires a lot of work to incorporate and probably update. So they can feel better off letting you use an outside resource like a wiki or youtube. I do agree about allowing players to upload combos though, I think GGST doing that is so cool
This is some of the best grass roots produced information on fighting game trails and training material within games. Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed!
honestly... you've reinvigorated my drive to learn fighting games by teaching me about granblue versus's method. i easily learn the best when given a situation and allowed to develop my own solution to it
Happy to help!
This is giving me core a gaming vibes and i dont see his videos lately, so this is lit
It's great that you made this video. Because many people that are new to fighting do that, I did once too. I lost many street fighter matches trying to do one combo 😂. But the best advice I can give is this:
Learn your character bread and butter combos , and hop online to play people your level. As you move up ranks you can pick up more things. As your situational awareness develops learn and lab string or setups that are adequate to the walls the players you face pose to you. Even if you can't replicate what they are doing just yet, watch and rewatch high level players with your character, or even people playing against your main, and see how they react to it so that you can develop counter strategies.
But the most important thing is to have fun.
I watched high level Ramlethal gameplay for my learning of Guilty Gear Strive, and I can just say: if you know your movelist and can recognize the attacks used, you can, with a bit of effort, learn what to do against or for something.
i like this video and the guy seems nice. liked and subbed
Good job i wrote a comment before i finished watching and you covered it. Btw note to new players combo trails can help but you have to pick them apart i.e like what moves otgs and what cancels into what
You've just saved me ten hours of watching Anji combo guides on CZcams. Once I get the bread-and-butter stuff down, I'm gonna try experimenting on what I can do!
Ayyy that's what I like to hear! There are some good combo guides out there but not just the ones with notations. If you can find one where someone breaks down their "why" that's a great guide
I really love how killer instinct combos learning work, you have fast medium and slow buttons, and special moves to put in between them to continue the combo, the game teaches you to change and use your attacks to not get combo breakers
I've slowly been getting back into fighting games, last time I actively played a fighting game was Tekken 4 release. I find that my method of learning consists of going into a match, finding the most basic combo I can find. Like light punch, light punch low heavy kick that I did during SF6 open beta today. And as soon as I find something new I go back into training mode to find what I did, learn about that move and try to incorporate it into my next match. As soon as I feel like I'm not finding any new combo's I do the same thing. Go through and read the command list thoroughly.
That's how I've been slowly getting the hang of characters in fighting games lately, It's a relatively gradual way of teaching but anything else just has me completely overwhelmed. Especially the combo guides on youtube that sometimes just use terminology I had never heard of. It's a pretty big leap going from trying to learn in game to trying to find a good guide that can help truly new players. Also it might just be me but I'd love if every fighting game would just include the button layouts of Xbox/Nintendo/Playstation even if it's not supported on that platform for people that have difficulty jumping between the 2. I had no clue what the SF6 beta wanted me to press on my playstation controller when it asked for Y
As a trackmania player who recently got back into strive, thank you for the wirtual speedrun video music 😂 was a nice touch
I'm glad you appreciated it! I saw my chance to pay homage to a favorite content creator and I ran with it lol
16:25 OMG MARIAH THEME! now that's what I call a cool af coincidence, you've got good taste in music, fr
Making these videos has helped me find tons of fantastic FG music lol
@@qmanchu that's really cool, liking fighting games, games as a whole tbh, also made me find a lot of great OSTs, a big part of which I can't experience yet as well, because I only have a ps2, a phone and a potato laptop
+1 on track mania. I remember spending so much time competing with my friends on the first track we were up until 6am trying to beat each others time.
Also appreciate this video as someone who is just starting to get into fighting games!
I'm low key surprised how many trackmania people found/are finding this video. The algorithm really did its job
Man, your videos are so insightful and your explanations gel perfectly with my lizard brain
this was so good i thought i was the only one who felt like this about combo trials i never could remember all of them
Thinking about picking up SF6, this was beyond helpful for a newbie 🔥
The first fighting game trial mode and tutorial that actually taught me about the game was MK11. Their training and trials made me fall back in love with fighting games
Thanks for this video.
Context: my first fighting game was MvC, and aside from Soul Calibur, that's the only FG I ever did. Without any game that had the same flow, I had to learn new games to scratch the FGC itch. However, doing combo trials (I'm looking at you Cammy Intermediate 11) has just reinforced a perpetuating negative belief that I'm too old already to get into SF.
Reminding us not to get too hung up on sucking was great for my depression. Thanks man.
I'm so glad I could help!
Damn, watching this makes me want to replay Strive again, even more so than the new DLC characters
Great video !
Damn, this video actually cleared up so much trouble I was having learning new fighting games
Now that I know I need to learn the *why’s* of games and not the *what’s or how’s*, I think I might actually have a better time learning!
Wow! Really makes me happy to see that! Hope this helps
As both a long time Trackmania player and someone who very recently got back into fighting games (thanks, twinkle star sprites, for giving me the itch), I appreciate this video a lot.
For years, I told myself I couldn't play fighting games. I was just bad at them. This is because the only modes I did were combo trials (that I'm bad at) and getting absolutely pummeled in online because I would try to do the combos I learned but would always mess up input or timing or both. With trackmania I started with some easy tracks, then hit the hard tracks and just redid them again and again and again until I could figure them out. I've started applying that to kof xv, samsho and windjammers: I start on an easier difficulty until I'm comfortable with inputs, then I crank it up and keep trying again until it clicks on my brain what I'm doing wrong, what I'm doing right and what I can start doing to do better. I'm still GARBAGE at them, but it's way less defeating.
You don't need to know how to do the perfect nose slide in trackmania. Just learn your race lines and maybe learn how to glitch boost if you're feeling frisky and you'll do fine and learn the rest in time. Same way I've realized that I don't need to know how to infinite combo or pull off every final move perfectly every time, I just gotta get comfortable enough to get some footsies in and get some basic combos and the rest will come with time and practice.
Hell yeah! Glad this video found the audience I was hoping it would
Damn dude, awesome video. Keep it up. Subbed
I'm horrible at fighting games but in my case I use the trials more for knowing what can connect with what and then I go to training and try to build something by myself, recording movements for the dummy so I try to see with what can a I punish or counter someone, I guess is not that usefull but it'w been working I can somewhat know what I'm supposed to do in matches. Great video man ❤
Nah that's a super useful way to use trials! It varies per game how you're supposed to interpret them but lots of games give you more of a framework that you can fill in later like you said
great video, helped me alot
I think what harms trail mode the most is having the buttons in a list in the corner of the screen, my main fighting game is MK11 and when I was learning combos for my favourite characters I had already gotten comfortable with that character, so I knew most of the moves by heart which made it so much easier to translate the combo from a youtube tutorial and into the game without having my eyes glued to the corner of the screen.
For me the best approach early on in learning combos is to simply look at the special moveset in practice mode and string together my own combos. This forces me to learn what regular attacks the game allows me to cancel into specials. It also shows me what strength of specials I should use in order to complete a combo. I always a learn a simple but effective standing combo and a simple and effective jump in. it isn't about reinventing the wheel. It is about learning. I learn so much from this approach.
I loved Strive's online combo sharing feature. I know combo trials are not really practical to learn but hot damn I love doing them as a kind of puzzle. It's fun and very rewarding to achieve it in a vacuum.
Hey! I had a pretty odd fear of playing fighting games despite desperately wanting to get into them and play against others, probably because they all seemed so difficult when you look at it visually. I had GGStrive purchased but not played for a long time because of this fear, but after checking out a few videos including yours which explains what GGStrive really offers to help in such situations has boosted my confidence IMMENSEEEELY ty! Plus, with SSBU/Brawl, the only fighting games I truly played a lot back then, I had already been into it because I loved the series and had already played Brawl. If the first thing I saw were combo trials and all this visual mumbo jumbo instead of jumping in right into it, I would've been way more distant with the series than I am today. Like yeah, you can figure out an Ike air combo of sorts and do an Ike back air to do the most damage possible, but the timing/input is really precise and a bit hard on wifi, so it just felt more obvious and punishable to the opponent if you just did Ike up air, especially when you already know how to mix it up if they're expecting it, such as with patience or faking it.
Nice Trackmania shout-out. Game slaps.
Combo trials are good for learning what a character’s moves are and how they can flow into one another. Even if you don’t use the exact trial combos in a match, then you can at least steal bits and pieces of them. I think you’re right that they can be improved, but I’m glad that most games have them.
Imagine a combo trial. That litterally explains why you use certain moves . And the combos show you multiple ways to start the same combo.
Or ways to bait out to start the combo.
Then also explain the framedata for it and why to use those moves in regards to the frame data
Mad underrated channel, so glad to have just found you, enjoy the blowup man :D
Thanks a lot! I'm really glad you enjoy!
Tekken's replay and punishment system is insanely good and I wish it was a staple in every game. Like you said, Tekken is a game that favours legacy knowledge, and with the ginormous movelist of each character, learning the frame data for each move is really daunting. Being able to watch a replay and see which moves were minus and then having the game give you a recommended move to punish with really helps with the learning process.
something i like in tekken is that you can see what the move actually does so you can have an idea first. also it has punishing training, suggesting you which moves you can use when a character attacks you. this is pretty good to understand how to counter the other. idk if something like that happens in sf o kof
Was not expecting there to be a reference to Stand and Deliver but it was a welcome surprise
One of the most influential movies of my life! Had to be in a video about learning in my opinion lol. Thanks for watching
I’ve been playing mortal kombat for a couple months just learning it. I’ve just been playing against bots and in training. Learning the moveset and what has opportunities to combo into what has made me learn the most
Combo trials helped me learn how to actually use charge input specials in a combo, so thats cool.
Combo trials are definitely useful for beginners. Learning timings, possible combinstions, ect.
I play fighting games all the time and with these combos trails I take some of the usefull combo starters then turn them optimal in training
i didnt expect to see a korone clip
subscribed
Great Video, I can count several times where I have learned combos in fighting games just to lose to a button masher.
Dang that was an awesome video. Perfect, even.
Wow thanks! I'm really glad you enjoyed!
The motivational song at end, pure virtual vibes.