Symbols are Not Metaphors | Jonathan & Matthieu Pageau
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2024
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Symbolism in The Book of Genesis - With Matthieu Pageau:
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What is Symbolism? - With Matthieu Pageau:
• What is Symbolism? - W...
"a symbol is simply a fact that embodies higher truth" (The Language of Creation, Matthieu Pageau, page 27).
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I remember trying to defend Christ's real physical presence in the Eucharist, and that Christians eat and drink His body and blood; and this is what I couldn't communicate.
Jesus says, 'I am the door' that person believed that Jesus meant, I am like a door, but what is a door but a place of transition from one situation and the next?
The Body of Christ *is* the Church (Ecclesia). Not the buildings. The people. "Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit."
@@scottmcloughlin4371 This makes me think. After watching this video, I wonder if the buildings, and maybe in similar fashion the institution of the Church, are clothing for the Body. Makes me think about the God-Bearer, the Virgin Mary, having such a special place in ancient Christian churches. "I have seen a new thing in the land, a woman shall shelter a man" (Jeremiah 31:22). A clothing, helping the Body to submit to what the Head wills for the body to do.
@@choogwalda You are right on target. Once upon a time, shelters were mostly tents for animal herders migrating their flocks to new grazing grounds. I grew up camping all the time. I still think of housing as "tents made out of wood, brick and stone." What's more, our words Text and Technology come from Tek, the root word of Textile. Of course, in the ancient world, women were responsible for weaving textiles. Unpacking a little bit of old poetry can often explain a great deal about our lives today. Stay strong.
It's a metaphor.
@@urbanwinterhound8863 whelp I'm convinced, Christ is a metaphor. Thanks 👍
Hey! I actually understood this today! I think I’m making progress!
So I’m not the only one who often feels Jonathan’s discussions fly over my head!
Same, little by little, it’s making more sense.
Dang. I know they're saying something profound but I'm just not there yet.
Such a good comment
@@melaniereeder2349 It's a great comment and so is yours; I say that given that symbolic thinking was replaced by scientific thinking after the ironically named "enlightenment era."
Legislative acts have names like that ... the "Cares Act," also known as the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and "Patriot Act" after sep 11.
Who stands against Caring?
Who stands against Patriots?
Who stands against Enlightenment?
People who can see beyond modern day scientific materialism have eyes to see and ears to hear.
so modern understanding of ancient symbols understands them as metaphors, rather than properly as symbols. I alwayd hated metaphors but used analogies everywhere.
I had a dream once where I was told I was going through transition. Perhaps the dream was telling me that I am living in time, the other unique feature of this dream was how I saw Benedict Cumberbatch as Sherlock twirling around my room in this dream saying it “belonged to a girl in transition.” This could be my understanding that I was coming of age even though I was 27 or 28 years old at the time of this dream.
This felt a lot like Owen Barfield's work, I am sure he would be very proud, spread the word folks, you are doing a great job
My understanding of this lecture is that symbols are not metaphors meant to describe disparate phenomena, but they are simple pictographic or phrasal distillations of truths and natural phenomena Man has experienced since its inception. I.e. God and Heaven resting in the clouds being a symbol of the Lord’s authority over the cosmos and consequently the earth since scriptural God is the being who created everything in our physical reality.
"My hand used to be a sandwich." This tickles my brain perfectly😂
Would like to hear Jonathan discuss similarities and differences between his "symbols" and Plato's "forms"
He discusses this in his May 2022 Q&A, timestamp 00:43:49.
I can't overstate how based that was.
So great for people to know.
@@AluminiumT6 goated comment, that clip should be posted separately if it already hasnt been
@@AugustasKunc how did you find that specific video? CZcams search is giving me totally unrelated results as usual
Jonathan and Matthieu please do a new discussion! Love learning from you! God be with you.
I guess when snake is a symbol for us it's not only a snake as an image, but an image in light of seeing it as an expression (manifestation) of some pattern. And so that disposition is crucial.
Metaphor may be understood as an image that is seen as a gateway to other image (but not pattern). So it has different disposition.
Metaphors may be interesting for us not in the destination of such transition, but in transition itself in which it peripherally touches that which is more directly approached in symbol.
So, I guess, in metaphors we utilize some parts of nets of analogies that are below full manifestation of some pattern and in that involvement we may peripherally relate to pattern itself.
We can also say that metaphors are more horizontal (they are like time - movement, change on a periphery) and symbols are more vertical (like space).
Maybe what is absent in metaphor is reflection (and awareness) - we move from one thing to another and may not know why this transition is interesting for us. We just feel it. But if we reflect on that process we may start to approach a unity on which difference in metaphor points (as a periphery of a hidden center).
"Symbola" means aphorism in Greek. We don't even use the word "symbol" the way Greeks used that word.
"Clothing" also corrects for "time" in that time is change/seasons
I love how Jonathan can't keep himself from laughing at the ironic reality of the sandwich hand. The revelation of truth has that euphoric release power. I see it as the body's way of agreeing with the principle: a joyful release of breath.
I came to the realization of time=change a couple years ago when I realized God's "undeteriorating state" and His being "beyond time" were inherently related.
We only recognize time because the world is in a constant state of being one way, then immediately a different way. We see what IS become what WAS. Constantly.
And we call that continual changing "time".
Love how you both have the same manner of speech
I hadn't thought about the serpent being a symbol of time; with time being transformation or change, not the passage of minutes. This fits however with the serpent also as devil and "prince" of this constantly rotating/transforming world = time. Would it be right to then to interchange words? Ditching metaphors, time (transformation) is also the "prince" of this world-as well as the "serpent" that "eats the dust" of the ground. Abstracts.
I would say symbols are what is used in metaphors. A metaphor is the use of a symbol (or multiple symbols) to describe the truth (relative to the domain of discourse) in language. Do you agree?
And usually when we call A a symbol of B, we mean that it is not the usual way to refer to B.
can you explain the topic of the clothing?
I think the issue many have with this is essentially the use of ancient definitions instead of modern. If the snake represents change, which was once referred to as time, why say the snake is a “symbol of time” and risk the confusion, as opposed to just translating the old definitions into their modern analogs. Time -> Change. And then just mentioned the ancient vocabulary once the principle has been established.
Because it doesn’t work that way. It has to do with assuming you can build from the ground upward to heaven when the whole idea is that you have to first understand that god builds the world from the top down.
@@animula6908 How do you mean "from the top down?"
@animula6908 What are the "top" and "bottom" that you refer to? Is the top more abstract, or the bottom more abstract? Or are they both abstract in some way?
Thanks for helping me to understand Owen Barfield.
Fascinating. I like this foundation.
They also have to follow the universal truths of Law of Polarity, As Above Then Also So Below, and the requirements of staying true to following and promoting only Peace, Love, Unity and Respect. If the religious or spiritual passage you are reading violates any of that, there’s something else going on there that you don’t fully understand without the proper educated context first. Usually historical differences of meanings such as the video suggests. Or because the passage is portraying an event for reasons that support those aforementioned requirements. Even at times it means that part was edited.
Symbolism is also art. It can switch up it’s meaning depending on the person. If you know, you see it. If you are ready but don’t know, it intrigues and sparks something in you. If you don’t know and don’t want to know and have your own agenda even, you won’t see it properly. Apologist and literal interpretations is trickery and black word “magic”, because it requires mental gymnastics which is essentially just gaslighting yourself plus choosing dishonest disguised as something else, as an okay action to take there. Nope.
I don't understand the difference between symbolism & metaphor
The way I've come to understand symbols (as discussed by the Pageaus) is that they actually "personify" what they symbolize.
Like, LIGHT for instance "symbolizes" knowledge and awareness.
Why? Because when light ILLUMINATES the dark, it REVEALS what was unseen.
This revelation informs you--makes you aware, or more knowledgeable.
To understand a snake symbolizing "time," you first need to realize "time" used to be understood more as "CHANGE." Change IS the passing of time.
The snake personifies "change" in scripture when it sets out to usher the world from one age (innocence) into a new age (fallen).
It will also bring another change of "ages" later when Christ bruises its head.
The snake symbolizes CHANGE/"time" because its acts that out in bringing about new ages.
It also personifies this change of ages when it sheds its skin--visibly, notably transitioning from an old self/age into a new self/age.
Not all figurative symbolic language in the Bible was literal to the listeners then though. For example, when Jesus told his disciples to watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees, they misunderstood it.
Though there is a difference between Jesus talking, and the 'narrator' of a book speaking. In the second case, it might be generally true that the text should be taken literally (as the author intended it, in the context of when it was written).
LOL. Between Matthieu and the video editor, Jonathan is only allowed to say one word until signing off at the end.
Am I the only one who thinks they look extremely alike?
💜
Symbols are material
Symbols aren't metaphors. They are truth containers. ?
the trouble with symbols in the bible is that they symbolize something that is incomprensible. So I wonder about the value of a incomprehenible symbol. Especially when we realize that the only reason for a symbol is because we are unable to understand literally. I think we might as well read it as literal like a child.
G K Chesterton said man is the only animal wearing clothes because he is a priest. How do you find this statement?
I can get the content, but i cant get jonathan pageau talking to pageaunathan jon
It's funny how Jonathan became Orthodox and ended up looking Greek and Matthieu got into Rabbinic thought and ended up looking like a Jew. Or maybe the causality is the other way around, who knows. But it's funny and interesting nonetheless.
Truly. Nothing is arbitrary. Very interesting, and on-brand for the Pegeau brothers, that physical form follows spiritual identity.
If we say, for example, that snake is a symbol of time, what is signified by the word (name) "time" here?
Is concept also a symbol in a more subtle way?
He clarifies a bit a little after 2:00
TIME and CHANGE are intrinsically linked.
Reality is CONSTANTLY changing from one state to another. (Were this not so, we wouldn't even be aware of it: You can't be aware of reality "not changing" because your very awareness of "nothing changing" would BE a CHANGE in and of itself.)
We have rhythmic Changes (or CYCLES), such as sunrise and sunset, moons, tides, seasons, etc...
And we know so many moons happen between cold seasons and warm seasons. We know so many sunrises/sunsets happen within each "moon," etc.... and in modern times, we've divided this awareness of cyclical CHANGE into even intervals and called it "Time".
But TIME is CHANGE.
In the Garden, the serpent is an AGENT of CHANGE ("time").
The serpent is there specifically to CHANGE the state of the world from one age (innocence) to a new age (fallen).
This correlates CONCEPTUALLY with a snake's shedding of skin, which symbolizes an old state being shed as a new state replaces it. (An old state becoming a new state is CHANGE, aka TIME.).
Interesting how Matthieu Pageau's eating metaphor is flipped on it's head by communion. We eat Christ, but then are incorporated into His being, and obey His rules, not the other way around.
Interesting idea. After reading your comment, I was stuck on this question. I believe I may have a partial key to the problem.
Ordinarily, substance (food) is taken into the entity (person) and it becomes an extension (body). Communion would reverse this, as you bring up, because the body and blood of Christ (substance) come to comprise the believer’s individual body. But communion is taken as the church, in communion. So the church as a whole (the body of Christ, having the mind of Christ) take on the substance of Christ’s body. It’s like that portion of the individual believer’s body does not belong to their own agency, but to the agency and mind of the Church. Because they take it on to themselves by the mind of the church with the purpose of the church directing the consumption. It’s like eating specific foods with specific intentions, for health. The mind directs and selects particular food for particular purposes (say meat for building muscle or carrots for improved vision), and the purpose is then contained within the food. This only feels like a partial answer.
WRONG !
The "serpent" (not snake) in the garden was symbolic of created man's (adam's) ....."CARNAL MIND".
The word "spirit" in scripture is a metaphor for the "mind" or "consciousness".
"God is Spirit" ( John 4:24 )......so "God" is the MIND and CONSCIOUSNESS that dwells in all things .
Not some kind of old man up in the sky somewhere .
The Bible is written in metaphor, allegory, signs and symbols ....aka "spiritual language" .
A "metaphor" is a "meta-physical form" of a SPIRITUAL reality .
"Spirit" is ALL that truly exists.....this physical "creation" (world) is just a manifestation of "Spirit",
and it is an illusion......"time" itself is an illusion of the mind (spirit) as well .
The words "serpent", the "devil" and "Satan" in the Bible all mean the "CARNAL MIND" of mankind....
there is NO evil boogie man out to get us.......WE are our own worst "enemy".
"That old serpent called the devil and Satan that DECEIVES the whole world." ( Revelation 12:9 )
And we must learn this TRUTH.......the hard way .
A GOOD Parent will allow their child to "fall down" and skin their knees when learning to "walk" (live) .
The eve in this thumbnail was thicc hahahhaah
“My hand used to be a sandwich” best Matthieu Pageau quote ever.
why is a snake a metaphor for time?
Some possible reasons:
Snakes shed their skin - change
Snakes are long - time is long
so symbols are similes, not metaphors.
Symbols aren't similes or metaphors in my estimation.
I copy/pasted this from elsewhere:
The way I've come to understand symbols (as discussed by the Pageaus) is that they actually "personify" what they symbolize.
Like, LIGHT for instance "symbolizes" knowledge and awareness.
Why? Because when light ILLUMINATES the dark, it REVEALS what was unseen.
This revelation informs you--makes you aware, or more knowledgeable.
To understand a snake symbolizing "time," you first need to realize "time" used to be understood more as "CHANGE." Change IS the passing of time.
The snake personifies "change" in scripture when it sets out to usher the world from one age (innocence) into a new age (fallen).
It will also bring another change of "ages" later when Christ bruises its head.
The snake symbolizes CHANGE/"time" because its acts that out in bringing about new ages.
It also personifies this change of ages when it sheds its skin--visibly, notably transitioning from an old self/age into a new self/age.
Makes no sense