IWI Carmel Recall and Tism Rant
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- čas přidán 11. 11. 2023
- The New IWI Carmel has a safety recall just announced! Here's what you need to know.
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Find the recall notice here…
iwi.us/carmelrecall/#:~:text=Carmel%20Recall-,IWI%20US%2C%20Inc.,specific%20Carmel%20rifles%20listed%20below.
Remember Fight Club? At the beginning of the movie when the narrator is explaining the formula for deciding if the major car company he works for will issue a recall or not. Basically if the rate of failure and the number of cars out there and the average out of court settlement all ends up being less then the cost of a recall, they won't do one.
That's Sig.
💯 🙌🏻…you da best!
Lots of "big names" SEEM to use the consumer as unpaid-beta-testers.
Cough...SIG...cough, cough.
@@warrenharrison9490 Only the most recent. H&K as well....IF you wanted to throw money at over engineered. Hell, even the glock 22lr pistol. Which is odd as there had been working 22lr conversations for glocks for years.
Let me tell you a story…..just like the Carmel recall……I had one of the early models of the Bushmasrer ACR and immediately noticed a problem (slam-fire down range when letting the bolt go). Since I was an armorer and instructor at the academy, I called them. They wanted the rifle sent in and would only say the firing pin was a micro to long. I told them I could change it, just send the part…..Nope, had to send it in. This incident led to other problems besides a slam-bang….lets say: a double tap?? Yes, get-er fixed brother. Glad it was identified before I buy one !!! Thanks for a great video !!
IWI just on it immediately. Other manufacturers want to blame the consumers first before admitting there is an issue with their product.
Thanks fair
It's refreshing to see I am not the only one that struggles with barking dogs when recording 😂
My GSD freaks out every time the garage door opens. ^_^
@FitnFire Yes... Yes... Mine are GSDs as well 😂
It is good to see them take one on the chin and own the problem rather than, say, Sig with the P320 and their "voluntary upgrade". Also: Making guns seems to be harder than it looks. That being said, these makers have R&D departments and should bake more testing into their design process.
I hate Sig. I don’t get the hype. They’re terrible to their consumers.
Remington R51 in 2014 may have been the worst recall episode. Never worked out of the gate and took years to 'fix.' I work in Service for a very large computer company. I'll NEVER go out and buy a newly released product. I'll hold off for a bit while they work the bugs out.
The R51 WASSSS a horrible excuse of a pistol. I too like to encourage people to chill on new models while it gets worked out
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★★★ Find Recall Notice Here★★★
iwi.us/carmelrecall/#:~:text=Carmel%20Recall-,IWI%20US%2C%20Inc.,specific%20Carmel%20rifles%20listed%20below.
My mini 14 and BA AR ran another 2-300 rounds yesterday with no issues.....
right on!
Also Tisas USA and SDS Imports have just announced a safety recall is in effect for five Tisas 1911 pistols chambered in .45 ACP and 10mm Auto.
Good info!!! Thanks for that!
I was trying to decide between Sig and Glock. If Sigs split apart like that i guess I'm going with Glock
I carry a Sig P365X Macro Comp regularly and have had 0 issues with it. Some complain about rust where I have had no major issues. That being said, I would not carry or use a P320...EVER. There are even some ranges that will not allow P320s to be used for competitions without a manual external thumb safety. Glocks are typically always solid but are lackluster out of the box...sights need to be replaced and the MOS system is a horrible design.
Now, the CZ P10 series is where it is at for me at least. Their optics ready P10C is the best of both worlds and I shoot them very well!
@@FitnFire thank you for this info! I used to work in LE and most officers would carry a Glock or Sig P320. I always carried a Glock 17. I was recently thinking about getting a P320 but I don't think I will now. I've never been lucky enough to be able to shoot a pistol with an RMR. I've heard good things about the CZ pistols recently. I've never shot one but now I might have to go rent one at the range and shoot it!
I don't blame IWI. They have a pretty good track record, other than the third pin hole on Galil ace pistols LOL. At least they were able to identify the the lot of serial numbers affected and solve the issue. Its not like SIG rushing every product they have ever made before testing them, only to use us as beta testers. SIG just sucks.
Tactical Considerations just gave honest run through of a new DD M4 risIII.
Yep...he would definitely be on my list of "trusted Guntubers"
My Carmel has been sent in for the recall, Less than 1100 of them, was wondering if there any failures or issues. I had no issues with mine.
No issues with mine and would like to know the same thing
Mine was sent before I purchased it( came in with the paperwork from factory) so I'm OK long as the company own up to it and fixed it
Sounds like you’ve got a smart friend.
Oh, you know I do!
I understand what you are saying, the consumer should not be the Beta tester of new to market firearms. What I question is how practical is it for them to do the extensive testing that would otherwise be required? What sample sizes would they be using? GunTubers are not all honest, some are, some I wouldn't trust for 1 second, where do you draw the line? Separately, some manufactures costs are insane. What would Sig be charging for a p365 if they did super extensive testing? I personally don't want to pay HK prices for everything. Generally I wait for the bugs to get worked out before diving into a new gun. 1- 2 years seems to do it for most new guns.
So, my point is that the manufacturer is already doing testing with their R&D department (or at least they should be), and are already creating prototypes. Sending those prototypes to Guntubers would not be an addition rather in lieu of. So, there would be no "extensive" testing; rather, congruent testing. And, you're right, there are A LOT of Guntubers that are NOT trustworthy. But, those that I listed, I know or have met and believe they would do the most good.
My day job already does this. We provide field follow units to customers to run as intended and they provide feedback on a weekly/monthly bases during the development...it's called a New Product Introduction Project or NPI project. Since this is done congruently there should be no increase in production cost. We should not have to wait for bugs to be worked out of a product that is meant to defend/save lives. That is the intent of my rant.
Im just glad my JAKL worked out of the box.. I'd actually be furious if i spent 2-3x the price on a defective piece of kit.
You do realize that PSA has a 60% return rate on their firearms, right?! But, the Carmel is DEFINITELY a POS 🤣🙄🤦🏼♂️
@@FitnFire what's your point? IWI is company that makes firearms for numerous military contractors. PSA isn't. I'm also not condoning PSA sending turds. Fact is, there's no excuse for any company to be using customers for beta testing. Period.
@@PureCountryof91 then your original comment is pointless too. IWI isn’t solely a military contractor and the Carmel that is in the U.S. isn’t a military firearm. The entire point of my video is companies shouldn’t use its customer base as R&D. So, I’m not sure what the hell you’re actually saying.
@@FitnFire ... Know what? Happy Thanksgiving dude. And good luck with the Carmel. I hope they get the rifle working as designed.
@@PureCountryof91 it was working properly and no one I’ve spoke to has had any issues with it. The recall is preventive of a select serial number range like you’d see with a car. Chill my guy
THis is why I stay loyal to HK...
Hasn't the Carmel been out for like 4-5 years now? I know its in military use, but they adapted the base rifle for US commercial use. Why would they send it out for some you tube guy to test it when its already been tested. I think you're missing the point, its not a design flaw or lack of testing, its a bad batch of rifles due to a parts failure.
Exactly, CZcams streamers don't determine if I purchase a rifle. Every streamer... yeah this gun is amazing go buy it, damn gun suck, tell the damn truth and stop worrying about free crap from the company.
Springfield the company has done sketchy legal shit....the guns though have been solid.
Have they though? As mentioned, the SA-35 and Prodigy have had a very rough start! Some speculate is why Garand Thumb did not get SA's new Echelon because they didn't want a relapse of his experience with the SA-35
@FitnFire Well my old XD had been solid for years. The Hellcat & that bullpen have all had good reviews. The hi'power clone I didn't follow as much, but yea. It feels very hipster compared to basicly all modern pistols. Good for the time it was invented, but now...people get a clone it feels to be some micro brew & fancy coffee drinker. Plus, ANY mag disconnect is A HARD PASS in my book.
@FitnFire The new echelon has all been mag issues as I recall. Still a problem for sure, but it was all larger mags, that I saw.
From which country…?
???
Even in the military, where gear gets tested hard before issue, there are things that happen in the wild that the engineers didn't think of (the 'Private Snuffy Test'), so teething pains are not unusual for new designs. I don't think there has ever been a gun from any era that didn't have problems at first.
I also have to wonder how many people, after watching CZcams torture tests, immediately abuse new guns out of the box?
IF you do or don't, you know who you are. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't force it.
The M17/18 is a prime example of a failure in "military testing." Small Arms Solutions has a great series on how the military DID NOT test the pistol and only chose the P320 over the Glock 19X based on cost. Phase III where the additional "torture testing" was supposed to happen was bypassed. So, that leads back to my original point.
@@FitnFire I thought of that video as I was posting; Chris made some very powerful points. For another perspective (Information only, NOT trying to argue) hrfunk released a video discussing the gov't reasoning for going with the Sig. czcams.com/video/X23jo_32YQA/video.html
I don't think you understand what the us military does for testing....
@@AmericanBusinessman422 Please explain; there's always more to learn! 🙂
Lol don't forget sig
Oh for sure!
Really ? You think that's new ? I got a 20 year old Sig 556xi R that still a mess
No, I don’t think it’s new. What I’m saying is we are seeing a systemic increase of issues over the last decade or so.
So i understand your point about sending the product to guntubers but honestly i disagree. That doesnt happen in any other industry. Ford Toyota doesnt send their products to be reviewed before releasing it. I wont go as far as calling guntubers shills but i do think some have a remarkable skill of liking every firearm thats sent to them. And then theres the matter of the firearm manufacturers now having to pamper the guntubers as a way of getting their product a good review. Idk
Also i dont mind glitches if theres innovation. If the manufacturer is willing to do new things with their product and bring innovation to firearms when there are other companies that just do the same thing for 20 years and have press releases as if they did something remarkable. Idk
You're wrong that this "doesn't happen in any other industry"...it actually, it DOES happen. I work for a company that supplies the construction industry with products. When we have a new product, that item goes through a NPI project (New Product Introduction) where one phase of the project is solely focused on the field follow units. Those field follow units are sent to our customers to test "in the field" (hence the name Field Follow) and they provide data as to the number of hours used, noticeable wear patterns, breakage, leaks, etc. Therefore, the firearm industry CAN follow the model that other industries already do.
@FitnFire exactly construction companies that are professionals in that field. I don't think any company would just had off their product to anybody just bc they've been making CZcams videos for acouple years. I think there are honest reviews on YT that say what they must and that have a certain level of expertise in the subject whether on the duty or civilian side. You yourself are one of my favorite channels to watch for true and honest content along with honest outlaw, humble marksman, tactical considerations and others. But you must admit, and I hope you don't take this personally, that having the guntuber space as part of the release process gives the guntuber space a credibility and, to a certain extent, power that not always is granted.
With that being said thank you for the interaction. I appreciate the time you take to answer comments. Even when someone disagrees.
First
🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻… Thanks for watching.
As a firearm manufacturer (AK builder) I'm gonna disagree about sending prototypes to guntubers for a handful of reasons.
1. Guntubers dont know what they are talking about half of the time
2. Guntubers are not experts on firearms nor are they mechanical engineers (forgotten weapon's excluded)
3. They will not put enough rounds through a prototype to be worthwhile for the manufacturer or the guntuber (industry standard is 5K-50K rounds depending on the type of firearm)
4. Guntubers usually only follow trends and will make stupid recommendations (this has happened to me personally)
5. Guntubers are sometimes assholes and will skew your test audience results based on their opinion
6. its an insane pain in the ass to ship firearms to a ton of random people for testing
7. if you want to test a prototype it needs to be in a controlled environment which Guntubers are not
8. Guntubers do not know what the consumer audience wants nor do they know better than a major manufacturer who pays millions of dollars on studies to find the most profitable product to make.
Those are some simple reasons as to why I personally do not involve anyone in the Guntuber community in my firearms testing/development. I have seen success in dealing with a small community of actual experts on my firearm platform and sending them my prototypes/ammo for testing.
One last piece that some people may be confused on, IWI having a recall is likely do to a manufacturing issue and not a design one since the Carmel has been in service since 2019. A Guntuber likely would not have found the problem or been able to understand what caused it (back to them not being experts or mechanical engineers). IWI likely found the problem while doing QA testing and found the problem, boiled it down to a bad batch of parts and then found which guns had the problems based of those bad parts being put into them. This happens every now and then and its better to catch it early then later which I give IWI a +1 for because it means they QA every batch of guns they make on a regular.
Valid points, however…
1. You just watched a guntuber
2. Are you sure about them not being mechanical engineers
3. The companies are already expending that ammo anyways so it could be sent to people that would use it in uncontrolled environments…you know where they would be used
4. An entire industry has been developed around these recommendations. Just because you personally find them stupid does mean the ideas/recommendations are not of value
5. Engineers are assholes and believe their designs are flawless. I see this on a daily basis
6. Manufacturers are already sending firearms to 20 CZcamsrs for the firearm’s launch.
7. Testing of construction equipment during NPI projects are not done in a controlled environment; rather, actual field environments to understand how it would be used in a typical setting.
8. Guntubers have input from thousands if not tens of thousands of people which dwarf any volume of input the studies could gather and they usually can gather that data in a fraction of the time.
You may be right that some Guntubers may not know the best way of testing. However, there are some that are honest and invested in seeing products become better. NPI projects (that I sit in on on a weekly basis) have a field follow phase that specifically allow customers with field units to discuss what testing has been done, number of hours used (aka round count), failures, breakages, and design changes. Do Guntubers need to be mechanical engineers to tell a company that the undercut is too shallow, or the grip texture is too aggressive, or the pistol is too flippy in comparison to like models shooting them side-by-side, or it could use more pronounced takedown levers, etc. No, I don’t think so.
The input Guntubers could provide might very well be useless to a manufacturer. However, it could also be invaluable. We may never know…