Even BBC's "Experts" Can't Get It Right... (Ancient Greek Combat Sports Analysis)
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- čas přidán 31. 07. 2024
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An analysis of @BBC's "You're Dead To Me" podcast (Greg Jenner, Shaparak Khorsandi, Professor Michael Scott) and "Who Were The Greeks" documentary (Professor Michael Scott).
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#pankration #BBC #breakdown #history #sports #combatsports #mma #ancientGreece #ancientGreek #olympics #mma #martialarts #wrestling #grappling #brazilianjiujitsu #jiujitsu #muaythai #BJJ #martialarttechniques #athletics #reaction #reactionvid #analysis #boxing #wrestling
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Email: amopankration@gmail.com
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Quick note: I have about 50 copies (links) of the article, I'll update this comment if they run out.
It still baffles me how even the official Olympics website is full of the same misinformation
Fact is diplomas get you jobs. However a diploma does not automatically produce truth. Correct research produces truth.
Keep up the good work on this channel. I am happy to learn.
Criminally underrated channel that unites philosophy, martial arts and history. Much appreciate all the work you've put in! Been binge watching all stuff since i've found out. Keep it up!
I really appreciate your videos, I'm an American but my mother was adopted from Greece as a baby and I have no real cultural connection to that heritage and honestly never really will. But I'm also a lifelong martial artist so being able to see at least some sort of historical relevancy to the practice that has dominated my life is special to me. Thank you
Went to see Ephesus ancient city yesterday. Makes me appreciate your videos even more
Please cover Dioxippus. I want to understand why Wikipedia says that "His fame and skill were such that he was crowned Olympic champion by default in 336 BC when no other pankratiast dared meet him on the field." Was he violent with his sport or was the sport itself actually more violent than that?
Another great video, I like that you pointed out how a lot of misinformation around ancient sports in general is because the researchers themselves tend to not be very familiar with these types of sports at all which is part of why I appreciate your content so much. Also, would you ever consider making some videos about the techniques and historical sources for the other olympic sports? especially wrestling? I'd love to learn how ancient wrestling compares to the modern day version.
Out of curiosity would you do a video of the difference between historical and modern interpretation of pankration and what you believe it would look like if it had maintained itself to modern day
Omg. I wish there were more channels like yours. Application of rigorous academics to rigorous combat sports. Plato would be proud (assuming what I’ve heard about him is right) 🤣
Great work once again brother. Take it for what it’s worth but I think there would be a large number of your viewers who would be very interested in seeing some recreations of true pankration. What would you think of recording yourself or someone else actually showing pankration techniques and/or some sparring footage?
Excelent video, congrats on your article and... man... they do the Hikite of karate... it´s beyond embarassing.
I'm quite interested in that video about why in Pankration they brought their fist back above their head.
I heard it had to do with the style being an extent of weapons training, mainly the spear. However, I would say it would be so aquard I wouldn't want to bring it so high.
Very appreciative for your knowledge and insight.
I have a query for you, while my knowledge of pankration is limited to watching a few of your videos, I have noticed a similarity between pankration and the fighting style of former UFC middleweight champion Sean Strickland. His style is seen as awkward and unusual by most fighters and fans, but statistically and on close film analysis it has proven to be highly effective. Id be interested if you could take a look at his fights with your much deeper knowledge and tell if Im way off base or not.
you need to go big, make some conference around the world, go bigger
Hah I’m glad you found this programme - and I expected this reaction
Iassu phile.
Just wanted to leave a comment to support your work.
Greetings from a fellow greek in Germany.
8:34-9:55 No wonder why there are lots of Pankration comments (the clueless ones) who falsely claim that Okinawan Kempo/Toudi Jutsu and modern Karate Do came from Pankration. That misconception is insane. Thank you some much for pointing that out for fact checking.
I’ve been watching a bunch of your videos recently and I love them. I still feel quite a bit confused about what I feel like is the most straight forward question, what were the rules that we know of for pankration? I know it was different in different places at different times but if we were to put it into the Olympics today what are the rules we would be looking at? Is is open hand kickboxing on the feet with grappling and no striking on the ground? Is that what they were doing in the Olympics back then? I heard you say that the rule set was quite different from pancrase but it sounds exactly the same to me so what’s the difference?
Sir, is there enough information on actual original Pankration to attempt a true recreation of the sport?
I wouldn't be doing this if I wasn't sure there is.
A channel called "Checkmate MMA" did a video on Pankration 2 years ago and I would to hear your take on it.
would love see a general deep dive into the various unarmed combat of ancient greeks and how it spread into the later descendants of that culture (romans, medieval europeans) over time. Specially as a different take or alternative to the various academic texts you've written/are planning to write i assume
It´s strange how some (modern) greeks invented a new form of Bullshido jajajaja. Completely ironic. And the disconexion between the academics and sports is a vice that Socrates was against (but of course academics never listen to that kind of advice). I simply cannot understand why the people in academia cannot even lift their own weight but are quick to talk about sports and techniques, when they don´t understand the fundamentals of biomechanics (not that I do, but I have a little of knowledge). It amazes me. I desire you good luck with your academic and divulgatory work about Real Pankration.
Good morning. I have seen some videos where they talk about ancient Greek boxing. They are from an association called ACTA, in France.
I would like to know if this type of Greek boxing or Pigmachia is real or something they have invented.
Thank you and have a good day.
Wouldn't it look like?... Oh, I don't know WRESTLING! 😄
Another issue is that this 'modern Pankration' sadly got accepted by FILA
okinawa te tai -----> modern pankration!
He is really teaching that someone’s hands are breaking apart people skulls with punches? They might be underestimating the damage one’s hands and knuckles would take in such an endeavor.
Making a Greek/Roman Pankration character that is all about satire > Pretending to be a expert Pankrationist and spread false facts.
Do you think the ways that ancient greeks exercised and built muscle was better for the body than modern ways such as your typical weight lifting routine?
πραγματικα βγαλε τους κανονες του αρχαιου πανκρατιου. τουλαχιστον να ξερουμε την αληθεια .
Why was ancient boxing considered the toughest sport and not wrestling or Pankration?
Boxing was damaging due to its heavy blows. Because Pankration tended to end up on the ground as submission wrestling, the likelihood of injury was less than in boxing where submission could only come through injury (cuts etc).
@@WarYoga So it's kind of like today where MMA is generally considered safer than boxing because there's no like standing eight counts and that sort of thing?
@PaMuShin Although, ironically in barenuckle boxing it is actually safer when it comes to concussions because you can take a guy out of the fight with cuts and bruises, strikes aren't as hard typically, and cuncussions rates are lower,
MMA also has less concussions than boxing, since the gloves protect the hands less to allow grappling, however they still do make cuts happen less often often resulting in less facial injuries. So they still have more concussions and brain damage than bare knuckle in matches.
@PaMuShin Hmm, makes some sense.
It's not like I am much of a boxer anyways.
It's just a parroted statistic anyways.
Although one I looked into a little bit.
I have been thinking about trying bare knuckle boxing though.
The only thing I have really done is wrestling and hema, although I have started learning kickboxing recently.
Loaded gloves would be particularly nasty, both for dealing surface damage and concussions. As increasing the mass even a small amount increases the force applied.
Which should result in more blunt trauma.
But, a harder striking surface should mean more concentrated force so the amount of extra cuts, bruises, etc. is going to be a lot worse probably.
I have tried doing a little bare knuckle padwork and smaller bag work, a little scared to do a full heavy bag though yet.
Want to work up to it.
And the only bare knuckle punches I have been hit by were body shots anyways.
Even then, generally in grappling there are more ways to win that don't involve a significant much less permanent injury that would need serious healing.
It does still wear down the joints over time to a degree. But, like in many ways I think that is a bit better than the grind of concussions and brain damage.
@PaMuShin huh, so I guess it may not make much of a difference then?
It's not like I have any direct experience doing such a match. So I wouldn't be surpised if I am wrong. I have watched a couple matches bare knuckle and normal and would like to watch more, I have had a little trouble finding where to watch the match recordings are.
So you think that a thin glove would lead to more cuts than bare knuckle boxing then?
I generally would expect a smaller more concentrated surface area to result in more cuts and trauma.
Like if you hit your arm or something with a hammer you would bruise it, but if you drove a nail into it the nail is going into the material since the force is in a smaller point. Although, even a hammer head is pretty concentrated and could make a cut if swung with enough force, (Or break bones, etc.)
And the weight has an impact too.
And that applies to other materials as well.
A lot of things done to make things stronger are things that spread out an applied force to a larger area.
Maybe small gloves actually result in a more concentrated surface area than bare knuckles though? That doesn't seem too likely? But, that could be measured.
Physics can be complicated though.
Concussions are generally caused by an impact of the brain against the skull, which is a secondary impact. The more rapid the head movement is a result of it. and the more force there the more likely there is to be one.
Looking at match data seems important though for the idea. Since if most matches in bare knuckle boxing end in Knockout as well, then the best we could do is see if the force applied in those knockouts is less, and even then regardless it is still serious.
A secondary point I have heard argued but not verified, is the idea that in many cases people suffer more brain damage in training and sparring than they do in the actual fights, and that it is better to be knocked out hard once, then to be hit 75% as much a lot of times, And that less equipment in training tends to result in lighter hits in that context and so you get less of that build up of brain damage over time.
For that secondary point it would suggest that sparing with a lighter amount would be safer, but if it is too much less than what is actually done in competition we would expect it to be inneffective practice, particularly as glove size has an impact on how you can hold your hands.
With boxing gloves, you can use them as full-on shields for your face practically. and have them directly against it. Bare knuckle that doesn't work as well. Since if your own fists get driven into your face a bit it is still going to hurt your face some, and there are more spaces to slip a punch through or arround.
And even with like MMA gloves, they are small enough that they don't work as much like a shield.
I guess it makes sense that elbows would cut more than fists? It's a more solid bone, and the contact area is pretty small, not sure about force production though.
That makes me wonder if kickboxing and Mauy Thai are less likely to end by knockout and more by technically KOs and what their concussion rates, and the data on serious brain damage is for them?
If so that might undermine that hypothesis. Or back it up.
If someone was to find the root of any fighting style or art he or she will go to the source from the country of origin and its experts . Nobody will go to ask Europeans on the roots of Brazilian Jim jitsu or Japanese Jiu jitsu Pankration should not be examined by martial art expert is 3000 year old fighting style
the only thing remotely close to pancration is catch wrestling
You need to start a gym!
Hello there. My name is Evagelos and I'm 48 old. At my youth, 90s, i was a Pankratiastis. The first think they told us was that the Pankration we were practicing wasn't the original one. It was inspired less from ancient sources and more from modern martial arts. We knew it from the beginning. The so-called " expert " doesn't know absolutely nothing and his opinions are less idiotic. The Pankration was and now is no more. Any modern attempt to resurrected is foulish.
I sincerely hope that your efforts will be successful.
Recreation is not foolish is it is done in a scientific way such as HEMA. HEMA does not pretend to know everithing about those ancient fencing and grapling techniques, and anyone is free to argue that this technique was probably done in this way and not in that way if he has convincing arguments to back his point of view.
But if Pankration is recreated based on the model of most asian martial arts, who promote the cult of a master who knows it all... in this case, yes, it cannot be resurected.
It's not even good karate.... Kudo is better pankration than this......