Breaking Down Ramsey Dewey's Take on Pankration: The Ancient Greek Combat Sport
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- čas přidán 30. 03. 2024
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Reaction-style video of @RamseyDewey's take on pankration, ancient and "modern".
Sources referenced (not shown) in the video:
[1] On the Kicking Techniques of Pankration: www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/...
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#pankration #ramseydewey #breakdown #history #sports #combatsports #mma #ancientGreece #ancientGreek #olympics #mma #martialarts #wrestling #grappling #brazilianjiujitsu #jiujitsu #muaythai #BJJ #martialarttechniques #athletics
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Written, Edited, Voiced by Athanasios Bonas: Email: amopankration@gmail.com
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Nicely done man! Now this is how reaction videos should be done! No strawman arguments, no ad hominems, no fallacies, just facts and evidence. Very well researched & presented. I've been subscribed to your channel for a while, but I wish I would have found your channel years ago before I recorded that video. Great reminder that just because we hear something repeated on television, etc, it's not above scrutiny.
Yeah the other stuff was wack and imo came from a place of lacking knowledge and being blind to the fact
Look your not perfect(no one is). Just keep doing your best with your videos. 😎👍
Possible collab?
the ending of that comment is so true, nicely said, coach!
In the end, people who are interested in history or the sport will end up knowing what pankration is really like and who will not end up eating that type of McHistory.
So much has been forgotten about Hellenic culture, thus there is endless misunderstanding and blatant false interpretations going around about anything Ancient Greek/Hellenic. I'm really glad I found your channel, and that there is someone with the knowledge required to help us rediscover and understand the Hellenic past. I've long been fascinated by Hellenic culture, partially after reading about Pankration, your channel is a real gem, it is great to learn from the information you share.
Perhaps one day thanks to efforts by yourself and other like minded people, people will understand Pankration as it was, and the misinformation will be a thing of the past.
Pankration sounds like a better way of adding something akin to MMA into the Olympics also for the sport of MMA. Ramsey did a video himself wherein he discourages any push to add MMA to the Olympics because the Olympics has a tendency to ruin existing martial arts, like how a lot of wrestling has been taken out of Judo thanks to the Olympics preferring gi throws or how Taekwondo has become foot fencing.
Keeping Pankration as a sport separate but related to MMA and adding it to the Olympics seems like a safe way to allow MMA athletes to participate in the Olympics without taking the raw violence out of professional MMA, which would still be a separate if similar sport.
I don't think combat sports really fit with the modern Olympics to begin with. Olympics were held to praise the gods in the first place, modern version started like a sporting event for the gentlemen romanticizing the past. One could never drop combat sports from the ancient games, how could one? Those men fight to praise Zeus, to omit it would be a blasphemy... Nowadays tho, who cares, let's drop wrestling for something cool kids might want to watch, the schedule is packed wit niche sports anyway.
A little note on the translation of "Pankration" as "all power" vs "all mastery".
I have found that Western scholarship, which loves to study Ancient Greek, often makes these types of errors. This is mostly due to two factors: 1) They're just learning the Greek language in a classroom setting-no speaking or listening ability. Their goal isn't to become fluent in the language. They just want to be able to read (with the help of lexicons) and therefore don't fully understand what they're talking about, and 2) Greek is a high context language and therefore it's not always as simple as looking up a definition in a lexicon.
Also, it looks like they are romanticize ancient greece, which nudges them to more "poetic" interpretations
I mean, does it not go for any language?
Ramsey Dewey has a great CZcams channel but he does often talk about subjects outside his wheelhouse where he says some basically logical practical things mixed in with misinterpretations. I'm a HEMA instructor and try to bring that perspective to his comments when I can. He often talks about a battlefield context when HEMA is really 95% about dueling contexts.
Cool channel! I'd like to learn more about Pankration.
Your point about Pankration being a viable addition to the Olympics is really interesting, I think it would be really cool to see happen!
I have been interested in Pankration since 1991 I was 7 , so to hear you do a real breakdown of it is amazing, being from Alabama I never could learn it but was a UFC fan and first seen it in UFC
Goddamn, it was I who asked Ramsey this question several years ago - I am pleasantly suprised this got into the radar of a scholar as dedicated as you
it would be cool to get it to the olympics for sure
13:07 I remember seeing that episode thinking "Hmm, this just looks like karate. Pretty sure the ancient greeks weren't wearing those uniforms. Seems like a scam." Your video ended up proving me right.
Man you really shredded Dewey! I like the guy, but it's great to hear from someone with real historical knowledge and the ability to research properly
I wanted to thank you for all the effort you put into creating this type of content. Thanks to you I made a presentation for my college class about Pankration (although I ended up with more questions than answers). I also subscribed to your Patreon to support the channel 👍
Awesome video !!!
1:25 glad to see another article in the works, hopefully this means you'll have something on wrestling and pankration grappling later
6:22 have you read the Submission Fighting and the Rules of Ancient Greek Wrestling article by Christopher Miller? He cited examples of chokes and tapping out in wrestling in Nonnos' Dionysiaca, Galen's On the Natural Faculties, Statius' Thebaid (Hercules vs Antaios), Lucian's Anacharsis, and some other supporting sources
Yes, all of which are Roman authors. The Romans changed the rules of all combat sports substantially, which even Gardiner wrote about back in the early 20th.
That's funny, Ramsey Dewey saying the guy through a strike that penetrated somebody and then he ripped the guy's guts out. Yeah, totally believable.
Love your content brother. My love of Ancient Greek history was what got me interested in martial arts when I was a kid and I continue to train grappling over a decade later. I’m interested in your application of pankration in your own martial arts training. Would you consider yourself to be a pankration practitioner?
I really appreciate the excellent research in your videos. Hopefully I'll get a chance to read your published articles soon.
You mentioned that palm strikes were used to protect the faces of the competitors, which I agree with. Im curious though, were elbows to the face legal? It seems weird that they would ban closed fisted strikes to the head but not elbows, which can cut just as easily. Maybe just because punches are more common, and so they're considered the bigger problem?
Yes to both questions. Due to the high mobility associated with pankration, fighters wouldn't stay in close range without either initiating a grapple or moving out. Of the hundreds of surviving depictions of combat sport contests there are only three elbow strike illustrations.
AMO I totally agree with you .
I want to see safe space mma in olimpic games actually we only have safe space kickboxing ( boxing is kickboxing with no kicking rules ) or safe space grappling like judo .
es gracioso como hay personas a las que cuando se trata de temas históricos les encanta contar con total seguridad alglo que escucharon una vez, de una sola fuente y como más o menos lo recuerdan.
@AMOPankration ισχύει ότι η αρχαία ολυμπιακή πάλη ήταν μια? Νικητής ήταν ο πρώτος που έκανε δύο ρίψεις?
Και υπήρχε ακόμα ένα είδος πάλης εκτός ολυμπιακών που τελείωνε με υποταγή ή με την πλάτη στο έδαφος(pin)?
Hi, what do you think of the interpretations of Pankration by Dario Bataglia and especially Brice Lopez, if you know of them ?
I suppose that since Webster Dictionary defines mastery as: "possession or display of great skill or technique, skill or knowledge that makes one master of a subject" the "all skill" isn't too far strech from "all mastery" considering that it's an interpretation of an ancient term with modern words.
not to be that guy but is there any reference of what modern revival of pankaration looks like ive only ever seen the guys in the uniform and like 10 years ago so any videos would be appreciated
Spear hand impaling I've heard occurred in ww2. Its spoken abt in kungfu a lot too.
speaking of karate and wrestling, have you seen kudo?
you should check WarYoga clips, man
@AMOPankration - I have followed your channel for a while - I really like your work. I especially enjoyed your article on the kicks and am looking forward to your forthcoming hand strikes article.
There was a bbc documentary about the ancient Greeks which touches on pankration, given that the presenter managed to pronounce it properly you ought to do a reaction to that as well
Would you happen to know approximately what it was called? Though it would still be a risky upload given CZcams's nonsensical copyright policies.
It’s called who were the Greeks , can’t remember if it is any good though
Ramsey Douchey. That guy is so smug. 😂
ancient greek wrestling didnt have submissions?
Can you post a legit pankration competition or at least recommend some videos
I assume Pankration itself was simply the "sport ruleset" or ritual and in terms of martial artistry you might have actually had dozens if not hundreds of different schools possibly even regionalised/following a certain master, which employed different techniques and strategies.
Such a shame all that is lost for the foreseeable future
You assume correctly in your first sentence, but not in the second.
So here's the funny thing about his view on the olympics ruinning MMA um if you have a firm understanding of game design and balance MMA is doing that to itself at hyperspeed(by in design terms casualising their rules) within the last 30+ years it has ritualized, sportorized and cut into the practicality outside of the sport to a level it took the martial arts MMA loves to shit on hundreds if not thousands of years to do and it's only going to get worse as gyms maximize their training for the rules of the sport over real life combat just as an experiment go to your local MMA gyms and see how many teach you kneeling protection, what is a sports submission and what is a actual fight submission (actual fight ones keep you from putting yourselfs in a position where the other guy can do things illegal in a MMA fight like biting, eye gouging, groin strikes etc to force you to get the fuck off and emphasize applying full pressure from the word go in order to break the limbs as fast as possible) or just small joint attacks(far harder for someone to grapple you if they have broken fingers or wrists)
Beterbiev
yeah, stuff like MMA fights don't interest me because it's entertainment of people hurting each other, not a thing of skill even though obviously skillless engagement isn't doable either
Interesting video, however I would say the entry of Pankration into the Olympics is a no go. If you check any martial art that has entered the Olympics, they have been sanitised; taekwondo looked completely different in the 1950's and Judo banned certain moves outright (such as leg take-downs). Karate has turned into points sparring and is a joke in the Olympics; Pankration itself would not bode well at all.
Stopped watch Seth a long time ago. I dont care for his videos.
your argument that finger locks couldn't exist because a submission sign was lifting the finger doesn't make sense. That's like saying bjj couldn't have wrist locks because tapping is the sign of submission. Pankration athletes could lift the non-maniplated finger. Or maybe there were verbal forms of submission that haven't been recorded
Also your arguments here and in the sensei seth vid that groin strikes and headbutts weren't allowed since we don't see them depicted. Does that really hold? Not every technique could make it onto a vase that gets preserved. But let me say I do like your vids a lot. Curious about how you would bring pankration back? I've also been thinking of what a good ruleset would be for an all-encompassing martial art that's less brutal than mma. I think bareknuckle fighting is just inherently brutal. open hand strikes could help. But then if there's no point system, win by knockout is also just an inherently brutal thing.
That's not the sole reason I give, though it would be a problem if both hands are in control, which is possible with finger locking. It would render raising a finger or tapping useless, which is why Ramsey also mentions it referencing the wrestler (prob. Leontiskos). In addition, small joint manipulations are never mentioned in ancient Hellenic text, nor do they appear in any of hundreds of surviving visual depictions, despite how effective it would be in a multitude of situations. If someone want to claim they existed in ancient Greek pankration/wrestling, they have to show that they did.
@@AMOPankration I agree that people need proof if they want to say a technique existed. But your arguments often go the other way. You say that a technique didn't exist because we don't see depictions of it. I think that's tricky too. It depends how common and useful that technique would have been, how desirable it would be to portray through art, and how many artistic representations we have. That last one you know better than me. Do we have 100 pankration depictions? 1000?
I agree with your argument in terms of ground and pound. That technique would be super common if allowed. For headbutting, I'm not sure. That's more rare. For groin kicks? I actually agree with you. Groin kicks would be pretty common but are also funny and Greek artists have a sense of humor. I'd think there'd be a lot of ball-kick vases. Finger manipulation? I'm not sure how common this would be if allowed, but I'd guess not so much. And artistically it's hard to portray. Fingers and hands are famously hard to draw. And it's not as funny or sensational as a kick to the nuts.
That means I don't understand it
It's all Greek to me , see what I did
Do not respond to this annoying con artist. He is wrong on purpose to farm interactions.
Are you talking about Ramsey? Why do you say that
@@yagottapaythetrolltoll3127 Of course. His content for years was just inflammatory nonsense like making fun of techniques without actually trying them with any honesty and when criticised for this he just comments that it was "just for fun" and not serious anyway. This should be very transparent attention seeking trash.
You mean this boring, Reaction youtuber named AMO? Yeah, definitely not recommending his channel to anyone. He only gets views when he mentions someone else's channel.
@@nut_bust3r We found the triggered Ramsey fan boy.😃
I find it amusing that there are comments telling me how nice and cool Seth is and how terrible Ramsey is, yet Ramsey is who responded to the criticism, and did so in a positive manner.