Pankration in Popular Media: Urien, Marisa, and Jeffrey (Ancient Greek Combat Sport Analysis)
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- čas přidán 3. 12. 2023
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This video answers the question: What is the most accurately designed fictional representation of Pankration? I was just as surprised as you may be.
All 3S gameplay is my own, shoutout to Fightcade
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#Urien #Marisa #StreetFighter #Pankration #History #Videogames #VirtuaFighter #Jeffrey #SF6 #StreetFighter6 #SF3 #ThirdStrike #streetfighter3 #combatsports #Tekken8 #SF5 #Streetfighter5 #VirtuaFighter6
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Written, Edited, Voiced by Athanasios Bonas:
Email: amopankration@gmail.com
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Discord: / discord
============================ - Sport
Part Two: czcams.com/video/AOdgreM0tzM/video.html
I'm genuinely surprised that we got this level of accurate portrayal of pankration in an old 2D fighting game, now if I could only master the Aegis Reflector...
If you do just remember to remember the unblockable setups
@@yugimumoto1 if I could at the very least ahoot Metallic Spheres, I would be super happy
As for me, I wanna master the bronze-skin-at-will ability.
When you mentioned that historical evidence points toward headbutts being 'illegal' in pankration, it immediately struck me to be very intentional design decision that Urien rely heavily on this illegitimate tactic. Urien is very much a "low blow" kind of character, as his huge but fragile ego and constant sense of indignation would naturally lead him to using underhanded tactics to win at any cost.
I like this revelation very much, nice vid!
I figured out what's going on right after uploading the video (dammit):
This move is actually taken from a book on pankration that mentions that there was a headbutt called "emvoli kriou" (=ram charge/strike). However, the first mention of this term appears in a text by Flavius Josephus (Roman, 1st-2nd century CE) and not in the context of pankration. The author speculatively named it a pankration strike, despite zero representation of headbutts in ancient texts or pottery depictions. We all know that if the headbutt is allowed (see Lethwei) it is used often, therefore it would at least appear once, but it does not.
The reason why I don't think it's Urien breaking the rules is because Gill also uses this move, and he is the "pure" one according to the SF3 lore. I think it is just that the developers read that the move exists in the pankration book and figured it is probably true, so of course I don't blame them. It also explains the very strange technique of the special: the motion mimics the leaping headbutt of a ram.
Overall, I still think Urien is the best representation of the art, and hope he is added to SF6.
@@AMOPankration That's some really good historical context for their mistake, and a shame it didn't make it in the video. Good point on Gill also; that blows my theory to shreds.
@@Nosvenicaryour theory can still hold water. Gill’s image might be that of the more benevolent brother, but he also does highly illegal shit outside of combat, so morally I don’t think it’s above Gill to do this as well.
@@SunChipssIf we pretend that Capcom didn't make a mistake; you could say that Urien uses the headbutt to represent his Pride, Wrath, and Lust for Power. Gill, on the other hand, uses it to represent how he believes his divine nature places him above the restrictions of the ignorant masses.
Urien uses the move almost as an affront to his brother; a way of spitting on Gill's image and propping himself as an equal, or even a superior being.
@@AMOPankration
The reason for Urien and Gill using a headbutt is simple: Street Fighter's World Warrior Tourment has no rules when it comes to move or weapon use.
So, naturally, those who practice certain fighting styles take advantage of this fact and use moves that would be normally illegal in thier own fields.
Such as a boxer using elbow strikes and blows below the belt line.
So then, it would follow that those well practiced in pankriton would go on to utilize headbutting in thier move sets without fear of disqualification
The headbutt kinda makes sense when you take into account Uriens character, where he is a vicious power hungry fighter. So his headbutt is an 'illegal' move, but they must have outlawed it because of how dangerous it actually was to headbutt someone. So Urien doesn't follow that rule.
Unlikely, Urien didn't exist in SF3, it came in Second Impact. By then Gill was already de boss and already headbutting, so the idea coming as some kind of a backstab that someone like Urien would do makes no sense.
You could argue for it being fitting for Gill too, wich I'd disagree, normally that's on characters where throwing sand at your eyes or concealing weapons goes with the narrative they're building like Yamazaki or Codi. Jill won't bite you or kick your nuts, it's not the vibe.
Excellent analysis, I could never put into words why I liked Urien so much, especially his intro. Tearing off his suit and literally bronzing himself to become like an idealized Graeco fighter is also fitting for the arrogance of the character, too.
I actually think Jeffrey being a Pankration fighter was a mistranslation that stuck. There used to be an old MMA/Pro-Wrestling organization in Japan called "Pancrase" that had some similar rules to Historical Pankration but was primarily meant to be a bridge between grappling and striking rules in Japan at the time. It's actually very influential in the history of MMA with many early MMA fighters (Bas Rutten, The Shamrock Bros., etc.) getting their start in the promotion. Jeff's fighting style matches the ones that evolved in Pancrase as fighters experimented with which strikes and holds from competitive martial arts and Pro-wrestling were doable in a real fight and his equipment (particularly the foot protectors he wears) matches up to the standards from that field.
Most likely Jeff was originally meant to have been a "Pancrase"-style fighter but had it translated to Pankration in english. As the Pancrase organization went defunct the publisher probably stuck with Pankration as his martial art out of convenience, if they had ever cared about the destinction to begin with. Virtua Fighter loves it's accurate martial arts but has always been more focused on eastern ones, it wouldnt surprise me if this slipped through.
It is *VERY* possible, but might not be the case. I'd be willing to bet my money on you though.
Pancrase Japan did start the same year Virtua Fighter came out, actually a few months before. So this makes it very likely that it was the intended name for Jeffry's style just like you said. But when you take into account development time, they started working on the game long before Pancrase started. The only way this would work is if they decided to make a last minute name change for Jeffry's style 2 months before releasing the game. But if that's the case then it begs the question, what was Jeffry's style before they decided to go with Pancrase?
@@hugejackedman3447 Pancrase was preceded by UWF, a pro wrestling organization that put on very realistic looking matches, that's how Bart Vale marketed himself after "knocking out" Ken Shamrock in one of those matches, as well as Shooto, an actual combat sports org founded in 1985, so maybe it was either or both of those
Pure head canon, but I think the Street Fighter universe is one where pankration survived the centuries as a mainstream sport. Urien and Gill are using the pure or ancient, while Marisa's style is the modern version that's changed with the times. Like how ancient sumo used to be a straight up brawl with the only rules being "don't touch the ground or get rung out."
Honestly I feel for the headbutt, the entire point was to be something not allowed
I mean, Urien is no stranger in resorting to cheap tricks or tactics
I’d love a in-depth analysis of Marisa and what makes her less accurate to Pankration, and where she is perfectly accurate (if in any moves!)
I think that with Urien and his headbutt, it might be a character lore thing. Urien resented his brother and pretty much stands against his brother's organization. His headbutt could be a sign of his rebellious nature to the artform.
Except Gill also does headbutt and debuted a game before Urien did
I was today years old when i discovered Uriens fighting style was Pankration i never thought about it in depth but for Urien it makes sense
This is quite the video to find this channel, but I am not against it. This was very informative, and I thank you for putting this deep dive together!
Hello, I'm a martial artist form Spain. I study for a long time, the HEMA, specially, Pankration.
Thanks to your channel, I am learning a lot. Here in Spain, we only have one Pankration gym, from the Athlima school.
The point is that your videos are very instructive and educational, so they are helping me a lot, I wish you could upload more, because I want to learn from what you know about this interesting martial art.
I wish I could too
@@AMOPankration quick question is the axe kick in pankartion also kratos from god of war use pankration
Amazing video as always!
Glad you're back!
Sick video, with amazing research!
Thank you
Thanks for the vid. Glad pankration is getting recognition
Great video
Very nice video my guy, hope you post more often
Something I (and arguably many others) would love to see in a future video would be you reviewing reconstructed Pankration footage from CZcams. A lot of it would be either in French or Italian under the names Pugilat, Pygmachia, Pancrazio antico, etc...although I know one channel that features it in English. I can share them with you if you ask me. Some of that stuff looks quite period accurate, to my untrained eyes at least. I would love to train with those groups, but I don't know if the publish any tutoring materials.
Glad to see your works again, mate, even thought it has been months since the last one, every minute was worth it.
Send them to me on Discord, I'll check them out
@@AMOPankrationOf course mate. Love your project, I'll be glad to help it grow.
Very interesting video!! If anyone is interested in learning about the inspirations and influences behind the rest of 3rd Strike, John Learned has a whole series devoted to the introspection and development behind 3rd Strike's entire cast and other areas of the game.
Thank you for introducing me to a type of sport I’ve never heard of before. I very much liked the video.
i enjoy SF3 and SFV versions of Urien and i think they are both done very well. I never know what he was based off of and now I appreciate them even more. So far with SF6's really good animations, hopefully Urien will show up with even cooler representation
Hey loved the video keep it up
Good stuff!
I really enjoyed this video
I think it’s notable to mention that Gill is the more honorable version of Urien, and he does not use the headbutt special
Thought it said “Plankton” in the title so I was really confused for a minute
Urien name being based off a emperor that rejected Christianity while his brother is a "messiah" is a great way to show his animosity to Gill and even jealousy
The reason for Urien and Gill using a headbutt is simple: Street Fighter's World Warrior Tourment has no rules when it comes to move or weapon use.
So, naturally, those who practice certain fighting styles take advantage of this fact and use moves that would be normally illegal in thier own fields.
Such as a boxer using elbow strikes and blows below the belt line.
So then, it would follow that those well practiced in pankriton would go on to utilize headbutting in thier move sets without fear of disqualification
but if you compared that to a fighter who chose not to break the rules, even in real fight he would be ranked higher
really interesting video, i always thought marisa would be a more accurate representative of pankration because i had NO idea urien was using pankration. i love him even more now though.
if you want to get into some pankration stuff from more niche media there is this spinoff of the yakuza series called kurohyou for the psp. they are games about mastering many martial arts basically and the second game has pankration as a fighting style. ive heard those games are REALLY good at representing martial arts and i would love to hear your take on it if you can check it out.
if you dont feel like going through all that to play it im sure there are videos of the style online, would appreciate it if you could talk about it!
Cool, I'll check it out
I remember seeing somewhere that Urien's jumping headbutt maybe a reference to Baki the Grappler, since iirc either Baki or a wrestler did the jumping headbutt during a fight
I suggest Keinchi Mightiest Disciple aswell.
It has a pankrarion character aswell.
While it is martial fantasy it's interesting to see it represented in it.
Dude what are your thoughts on Gill, im watching your Urien go against Gill and im expecting something... regardless amazing video, subbed!
"I like marisa's design" yeah me too bro
The odessy analysis please 🥺😊❤
His headbutt could be sign of his personality. He's a selfish, end justifies the means type dude. It could be that the designer could've been aware that it's an illegal move. And Urien knows that too. Maybe that's why he uses it. Fitting for him. My favorite SF villain.
Where can I read more about the differences between roman pankration rules and greek ones?
Urien has the headbutt because he's a villain and every villain in street fighter that uses a sport based fighting style always have some cheating move, such as Balrog the boxer's headbutts
Always felt like urien was a prankationist
Urien was my main character on every game he appeared and in defense of Dangerous Headbutt I may say Urien is not a fair fighter. He is proud of his heritage and display´s it on his fight style, but also he´s mean and would do anything to achieve victory, so makes sense most of his moves are clean Pankration, but has a dirty move just in case.
I wouldn't be surprised if Capcom got the headbutt from one inaccurate source in their research.
what you said about marisa is something that has always bothered me about certain fighting games. i like fighting games, i like full contact martial arts and combat sports too and ive watched alot of real matches. there is a disconnect between what an average person thinks a good strike looks like and what an actual professional strike looks like. if they made a fighting game where the strikes mimiced the strictly practical ones from full contact martial arts a few people would greatly appreciate it but many would find it dull. they're not flashy, they're actually honed to be as visually nondescript as possible so your opponent has as little information to work with and your body uses as little energy as needed. but people like spectacle in fighting games and jabs, straights, and inside calf kicks aren't dazzling.
also: i think Jeffrey McWild's "pankration" is based on the 90's - 00's full contact japanese fighting promotion. which was really only similar to authentic pankration in that closed fist punches weren't allowed.
I thought Jeffery was native Australian. Had no idea he was of Scottish decent.
I was disappointed in Marisa as I wanted her to be a grappler.
as for with the headbutt, as others stated, Urien is villain, his cheating headbutt is probably a throwback to Balrogs headbutt which is also illegal in boxing. just because it's not legal, doesn't mean dirty competitors wont try to sneak in an "accidental" headbutt or two. When I was training for wrestling, my coach taught me all sort of dirty tricks like eye grouching people with your chin, purposefully grinding your boney forearm across the opponents face, sneaking fingers between ribs, and the notorious "checking the oil" finger in the butt, anything is legal as logn as the reff doesn't see it happen
I think the reason Urien has a headbutt is to show that he's evil. He's the secondary villain and the right hand of the Illuminati, I would expect him to bend tradition especially since he burns his clothes in his intro.
Why wasn't Gill mentioned? He has similar fighting style
Probably because he’s nonplayable and has nearly the exact same moveset as Urien with different inputs
They use the exact same animations
@haidynwendlandt2479 he has different animations even in SFV. It would be interesting seeing a compare and contrast between the two brothers
Where can I read a historian's research on plankration?
Research is limited and mostly flawed, there's nothing I'd recommend. I go over it in the studies that are in the process of being published. I'll make a post/video when they do.
This is gonna irritate a lot of people but Marisa is just a Copypasta of Shen Woo from KoF. All their normals and special animation are exactly the same.
First
Marisa's default stance and some of her moves reminds me more of Muay Thai actually, and the depiction of Jeffery is hilariously accurate. Did not know that stuff about Urien, but given that he was based on a jerk who rejected Christ, yeah sorry not sorry he's even more of a villain to me. Not trying to throw shade at anyone, but I love my Lord.
... didn't you spell it wrong?