How can we know if mystical experiences are illusions unless we know reality? | J. Krishnamurti
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- čas přidán 25. 06. 2024
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Brockwood Park, UK 1985 - Question #1 from Question and Answer Meeting #1
'How can we know if mystical and spiritual experiences are illusions unless we know reality?'
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8.26 Subliminally egoistic! How hard to realize this fleeting yet powerful ego! It wiggles, then measures and compares, then judges, then labels, then categorizes, then puts into vocabulary, then puts into actions. Being it's self-centered, it creates conflicts with other numerous egos. And the categorizing becomes security blankets and might becomes right. The sufferings and wars are the inferno from this spark. Thanks K and friends.
The question is: is there mystical experiences, facts ? Independently of the judgement of the experiencer ? Are spiritual experiences facts or illusions ?
😊@@DihelsonMendonca
He is one of a kind who exposed so called mystical ones in and out, such rationality is need of the hour
Toughest questions answered so Easily
Beautifully explained as I was also dwelling with like wise query from years ... Hats off to u master K
dang, he was 89 yrs old at this time. I've never known a person that old to be still too sharp.
Check Jacque Fresco !
He was like this until his death. It's the result of what he teaches, to know oneself.
As he said, being in touch with the source, the brain cells change and regenerate. Instead of degenerating with age.
@@Nobodyy019 it is the result of a brain that not run every single day in the same pattern. It has not so much to do with knowing oneself, more with see things clear, the movement of youre thoughts and feelings etc. When youre conscious of it you will not step into circles and repetitions, youre brain works free out of the moment all time so you look and experience everything fresh, new and not bored or sleepy... greetings from germany
What took me so long ....To reach you .... Sir .... Wondering
Such profound wisdom....
Feeling grateful.... Better late than never ....
Deep respects ... 🙏🕉️
your good karma with the teacher ripens and connected
The only prophet filmed. Nobody asked him for, but he opened the doors of the heaven to all. If we listen to him and understand him, we can be the ones working - without doing anything than simply living- to bring our civilisation to the next stage. You know what means to be a world teacher? It's up to us to understand this man and become as him, great human beings.
Experience is done with the senses and the spirit is deep inside of things. So you experience reality in a deeper way. Damn I want to walk step by step with this guy.
There is a lot of compassion behind his rightful anger.
Back then, it was not obvious to as many people as it is today that the world is disintegrating.
We are very lucky to have his books and all the recordings of his talks.
He's such a great spiritual teacher and leader!
He was not an aristocratic fat actor priest...
He is neither spiritual teacher nor leader, please get this right.
he's a human living, the most simple human that lived in his era.
Real master.when the i or I ceases,then reality starts.crystal clear.
J.K: "What is soul ? "sole" of the shoe ?" ( On a speak in India ).
His last public appearances
Never surrender yourself.. it is not yours to give up.
Thank you.
reality is actual and illusion is something we invent , that which is not actual and precise .....
very nicely explained by K.
Well said
we think dreams are real too untill we wake up.
@@berzek3352pain is real too until we take a medicine
Wow, talk about exploring a question.
All these spiritual things are "nonsense".
K speaking of things as they truly are, as usual lol. I agree!! Spot on! 👍
I guess he learned that from his time in the theosophical society, which he obviously didn't agree with the things they taught. If I was in his position, I would feel the same way about that too. He is the Ultimate Rebel to me (in a good way). Going against the grain of society and even against his so called "destiny" of being a "messiah" for the theosophical society, to find the Truth on his own, the Truth that is inside every one of us if we just looked without biases and concepts, prejudices and beliefs, basically, without the ego getting in the way!!
He was so humble and "ordinary" despite what his "destiny" was, and he flew in the face of everything people said he should be. I love it. What a guy!!
When the mind is absolutely silent then one is in ones real self which is not an experience. I think j k is saying this and also expecting the listener to listen to him objectively so that the very listening brings about the required transformation. But no such thing happens because of the subjective limitation of the listener.
No experiencer. 😊 How many can really understand this genius?
K visited too early.
Good point but that's why he was smart enough to let it be recorded I think😃✌
He even said to his colleagues that to make sure that his teachings are not corrupted . All recorded a dob a library now
Just make me happy that atleast he happened on the Earth....!!
Would our time be any better? A time where our lives are totally dominated by algorithms?
Let's say nobody can understand him except for himself, alright we might like some things he or others have said but no one could ever claim to understand people as they understand themselves, hope I got you right
A few years ago I saw myself from above. It was like my future self. Then later on everything that I saw happened. Its like we create all of these different avatars when there is only consciousness. There's really no time or space, everything else comes and goes. The real me is unmoving and unchanging. I view my life more like a movie playing. I'm playing this character that never existed and that was never born. 👍💗
What an honest, intelligent man! Pfft to you Watts...
Is there a time where the experiencer/Observer and so on is NOT? Then you DON'T want experiences... There is NOTHING.. The word 'nothing' means not a thing.. not a thing of thought, nothing means the end of time and thought... that's where there is NO EXPERIENCER at all.. THAT'S THE REAL THING.. NOT ALL THIS!!
What a statement!!
This small enquiry at the end of the video is itself enlightening!!
Very deep!
Thank you JK!
He is conceptually right. But if there is no experiencer and no experience, why should you live?
@@jurgenkosider1584 Yes exactly..
When there's no experiencer there is no “You" or “I'.
Then that question doesn't arise.
Then there is only the act of living.
It's all about losing that “you" or “I" which means no experiencer and no experience which in fact is the real experience. But for that the limited Identity (knowledge, memory, thoughts, beliefs) of the experiencer should not be there.
said something that is so deep and profound very subtly and simply 19:20
Isn't it all an illusion, even the question? Every experience is an illusion. Even the ego is an illusion. It is all an illusion. Except silence. Silence is not an illusion. The only reality we experience is silence.
This 💯
True buddy u got something great 🙏❤️.
The is above all teacher
Our Reality is restricted to our senses, a person who is color blind is an ideal example. So unless, some other experiencer comes and shares his experience, our experiences stay limited. And what may seem as reality for set of experiencers, may actually be illusion since, our reality is merely based on a community of experiences. But then atleast faith brings you closer to an unknown experiencer which may be a illusion, but still reassures we are not the exhaustive list of experiencers and maybe living in an illusion not under our control, this belief makes us less attached with our experiences as we believe we are just part of an illusion fading like fallen petals, thereby as a whole all experiencers start acting more responsible as their temporary greed of such an illusion starts reducing and may conclude other experiencers may exist with superior abilities. "Hope religion makes more sense"
He is all about living intensely
very well said..... sir
I'd say: if you think you know reality, you believe in it having a seperate existence from you. How do you know this? Because other people report the same? Bow do you know they are real. How do you know you don't misunderstand them? Having a truly spiritual experience includes the doubt about the existence of the self and the universe as seperate. It cannot be analysed from the standpoint of the seperate. It cannot be analysed, since analysis means splitting apart. If the only way you have of knowing reality is splitting it apart and looking at seperate models in stead of expsriencing, you will never have a spiritual experience. Yet you can have a spiritual experience and still remain rational in daily life. That is because your mind doesn't have to choose to be one thing only.
CZcams Algorithm Can You Please Promote This Channel Than All The Shit That Get Viral
Honesty don't work in CZcams
I hope by 2050 ,some high frequency souls will come who will explain this in a simple way by k....it's beyond language
Yeah it's called real work😂. So you think nobody Now can do this? he saying do this with me. Are we together in this?? Are you that confused??
J.K: "What is soul ? "sole" of the shoe ?" ( On a speak in India ).
It can be done now instantly.It is not tough if you have pateint enough to do.If you have passion to do so.
Naman..🙏🙏
What did u understood plz explain
Some actuality may come from illusions too for they are not two separate entities. Thought is an abstracted illusion - not actual - but look how much it changes the world. So what is is reality , well it could be called the interconnected change of all things including thought or dreams. The point is really not to loose grounding from abstraction to reality and find truth in the silence. Unfortunately nowadays abstracted ideas have become way too far out and viral and non-cohesive to a natural flowing harmony.
🌻
Everything as human existed before the speaker and listener exists and unless one was not given experience will never will we experience and whatever we experience is taught to our common brain... thanks to this irony of customs, ideals, expectations , desires and aspirations.. humans are animals refined until triggered...then we show our real self and that mirror we are not ready to accept and if we accept , then change the very instant and not through same methods how animals are trained and tamed but accept to be wild as was at beginning...human as I am I bow down to this great master.
when the experiencer are experiencing the experienced, that experiencer divided the whole into me and the others, then all conflicts arise from this. Sounds resonate from within ears, just because because sound signals are transmitted to the nervous system through the eardrums, and the final imaging occurs within the nervous system. throughout this entire process, there was no me.
Hippies generation,what a splendid era.
Yes it was. But THIS talk is from the 80s. No hippies. Yuppies.
🌻💝💝🙏🙏
We are inherently empty
I think he never wanted anyone to understand what he meant. He left puzzles because we have habit of memorizing words without understanding the meaning of it and without self exploration we can't learn it. His motive seems he is pushing us to find out he just left clues.
Des sous titres en Français
Merci
Watch 1.5×
something that cannt be explained but felt💝🙌😎🤍😊👀💕🌈😍😁🕉💯🖤😂💋🌹😍😁🕉💜
How would you distinguish a deeper level of "reality" with that of a hallucination or fabrication of the mind? If the speaker is saying that without knowledge of or some external observation of what reality is. What is the externalization of reality since unlike gods we are unable to see from such a vantage point? Who's to say gods are outside of, or have any knowledge of what ultimate reality IS?
Nobody can grasp the true totality of reality, even the speaker. I wish he had tested Ahyuasca or DMT, or even LSD before commenting anything about the nature of reality.
I have no doubt that Krishnamurti is 100% correct in what he says when he says, there is no experiencer, there is no experience. Words are symbols, conveyors of concepts. I don't use those words in the same way he does, evidently.
The important thing is not to get hung up on, or attached to, a certain word, but to understand the depth that underlies it.
That said, I define experience as the means by which, in conjunction with meditative awareness, we become aware profoundly, at our root. It is the stepping stone from ignorance to understanding, from innocence to sagacity.
I define the experiencer as the one who is experiencing, as the one who is observing, as the one who is traversing the movement of life, so that he may awaken and realize that he himself is that movement.
If you do know what Krishnamurti means by no experience, no experiencer, feel free to comment about it.
what i infer...the Speaker is referring to ADVAITA ie Non Dualism..
No comments are needed after that statement
I did not understand please explain me
What is illusion and what is reality
Is there a point to mystical experiences if one isn't in touch with reality because the mystical experience is an expansion of reality
State where the duality of experienced and experiencer vanishes is
what He is talking.Have you at least for an instance submerged in that!
Surrender and silence to the almighty God. What is illusion? Everything external.
The world is real when we percieve it with the mind or with the heart? The answer define who we are.
Either only experience without experiencer or only experiencer without experience.. only that is spirituality. I mean the presence of only one thing without the other.. is spirituality. I think you will never agree because you can't even imagine that I think!
Either only experience without experiencer or only experiencer without experience.. only that is spirituality. I mean the presence of only one thing without the other.. is spirituality. I think you will never agree because you can't even imagine that I think!
He's got a DJT haircut! :) Amazing talk. He's asking all these great questions. And he let slip the one great secret--that the question itself is the answer! The universe is simultaneously a question and an answer bonded together, the universal "all" coming into being from the universal question.
18:25 the only line.
can u explain me please
@@gvenkatavenkata6273 dissolve ypurself in your surtoundings, basically feel like your whole soul and energy is present in your surroundings and you are merely aware of this. Then a period comes when you feel like you have no self.
If this world is maya that means everything is an illusion except the one thing maya didn't add. Silence. Why would you add silence to an illusion or dream? What is sound? The lack of silence. Off then on. Silence is the answer to liberation to enlightenment to eternal bliss with God.
What a Scientific explanation... Very Good
So does he basically nullify a spiritual experience?
No
Not a thing of thought 💭
No experiencer ➿〰️➰🎶🎵
Where there is no experiencer no space no time that is reality. wao ..did you understand sir?? Not many can understand this
And if you ask them, they will surely say, "We were only conversing and playing." Say, "Is it God and His verses and His Messenger that you were mocking?"
My answer: We cannot know if any experience is reality because we lack omniscience. The more relevant issue is why do I want to know if it's reality? It's because we want some form of security or happiness. Wow, I'm smarter and more enlightened the Krishnamurti!
You're forgetting that Krishnamurti had omniscience, though. What do you think a mystical experience is?
+Kafei , Krishnamurti did not have omniscience. Where did you get the idea that he had omniscience? You would need omniscience to know that he had omniscience.
A mystical experience is an experience that we call "mystical". Other than that, it is normally some kind of timeless state, or non-material perception within or without.
+worldwidehappiness, it's not something we simply call "mystical." There's been peer-reviewed studies on this phenomenon in consciousness. People do have this impression of a kind of temporary omniscience. How else would one know that all things are ultimately one and interconnected? It's a profoundly deep intuition inside the experience. Yogananda Paramahansa once said, "Intuition is the soul's power to know God." Scientists today have, too, adopted this term "mystical experience" because that's what it has been traditionally called, but we realize today that it is a particular altered state of consciousness that most people, atheists and theists, have not had.
+Kafei , The impression of omniscience is exactly that - the impression of omniscience. It is not omniscience. Indeed, there is no proof of omniscience. The lack of omniscience is easy to prove by asking them if they can give you tomorrow nights Lotto numbers. And none of the seers who claimed omniscience in the past predicted the advent of computers and the discovery of E=MC2.
Just because something feels "profoundly deep", doesn't make it true.
How did Yogananda know that he was knowing God? We are small. Anything above us will seem like God, even though it might be a devil pretending to be God.
You might be inspired by spiritual stories and hopes, but it is much more important to be liberated from illusion.
worldwidehappiness You're confusing it with intellectual omniscience. This is not a type of omniscience which one could be asked at the height of the mystical experience what the Lotto numbers are,and one would be able to answer. It's purely an intuitive omniscience wherein one simply knows and sees the interconnectedness of all people and things, a profound sense of unity. Physics seems to be hammering home the idea that the multiverse is, in fact, a unicity. So, I wouldn't necessarily say that just because it's an impression in the mystical experience, it doesn't make it true. We don't know that. Physics seems to be agreeing that it is, in fact, true. That the insight of the mystic is not false.
Too complicated are his explanations and analysis!! The worst part is the audience pretending to understand every thing he's saying.. Very tiring and a bit demotivating.Sorry just my opinion.
Everything in reality/existence is spiritual. This guy needed to investigate deeper. He needed you people to walk with him. Wtf
What u mean
Please don't use words like those that you used.Investigate your own life
the sad thing is that apparently this drivel impress the audience.
BASICALLY HER THING IS NOT TRUE SPIRITUALITY GOOD WAY BUT WHAT SHE IS TWISTING AROUND AND CONCLUDING SHE WANT TO SAY IS THAT SHE COULD NOT SAID [ DO THOU SHALT WILT ] AND YES THAT IS TRUE THIS IS SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCES. PEOPLE THINK MILLION TIME BEFORE YOU DOOMED YOURSELF.THIS IS GOD BLESS AMERICA OR ABRACADABRA?..
Krishnamurti frequently asks his audience, "Do you really want to go into all this?" to create the impression that he knows more than he is telling. Krishnamurti's technique is always the same, he disassembles the question in a way that nullifies the question and nullifies the questioner. Krishnamurti will not even say if his own mystical experiences are real or imaginary, so he nullifies himself also. He invalidates the question, he invalidates the questioner and he invalidates himself as the person giving the answer. His audience, in a hypnotic surrendered mental state of self-induced 'guru' submission, treat the nullification of their own awareness of their own existence as evidence of higher wisdom. Treating vagueness as an accomplishment achieves nothing other than deactivating people making them soft targets for manipulative exploitation. This is why Eastern 'spirituality' gives people no moral resistance to the tsunami of corruption which is sweeping over the whole world.
I understand why you see this way. He doesn't give a YES/NO answer. In the lack of a sharp clear answer, most of people get frustrated. He does that simply to not be portrayed as a guru, holder of the knowledge, and he invites people to actually think for their selves. If he gives a clear sharp answer, people will never do what he is trying to make them do, to think and investigate it themselves.
The answer is: It is a common theme that we are all chasing experiences to be lived, including spiritual experiences, and that's where he is hitting that nail. There is a state of consciousness that neither the observer neither the experience is important. You are truly free. From anything.
He gives some tips, some questions, to invite people to inquiry and find the answer, the truth, themselves.
blah blah blah get to the point
glen allen there is no point our life is only blah blah! You can make point out out this blah blah according to your need!
See the reply above i gave to Matt Jr.
Wonder why you even try it's beyond you
There is no point.
This guy has no idea what he's talking about.
with all due respect Geo Hola probably u dont have brain enough to understand it ....
That would be probable Raaghu Mysore if I would experience the same problems with other spiritual teachers. But no, only this one.
ideas of reallity are the illusions, reallity itself however is a higher level where human ides have no meaning or existence in true reallity.
Why can't you admit that YOU do NOT UNDERSTAND what he is talking about-remember that you are trying to understand from the backdrop of your conditioned, limited understanding !
Why don't you talk if you have greater ideas