Articulation vs Sway Bar | Not What You'd Think!
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- čas přidán 14. 01. 2023
- How much articulation does removing your sway bar add? Which sway bar should you remove, front, rear, or both? How does that change on road driving? We focus on the Toyota Prado platform (FJ Cruiser, 4Runner, Prado, GX470) but the same idea applies to similar IFS 4X4s.
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-Stiffer rear sway bar ADDCO K2-301 7/8" (FJ/T4R): amzn.to/3IPe2lh
(These are 4X the stiffness to my FJ sway bar based on my measurement. Not sure how it compares to that of the 4Runners or other models)
-Extended rear SB endlinks Skyjacker SBE702: amzn.to/3CLvyCY
-Timbren active bump stops: amzn.to/3iMp8wu
-4" longer rear shocks OME 60071L: amzn.to/3kg8IwU
(These are valved for LC80 long travel but bolts on to FJ/T4R. They are VERY stiff if you have no added weight. My FJ has 250 lb drawers, 150 lb RTT, 115 lb spare tire. Only after these weight, it rides decent.)
-You also need LT springs, offset lower links and extended brake lines. They are the same as those in typical rear LT kits. Metal Tech, Dobinsons and a few other brands sell them. Note, the Timbren bump stops above are 1.5" taller than stock at 1000 lbf compression, so you do NOT need additional bump stop spacers with OME 60071L. - Věda a technologie
Here are the responses to a few frequently asked questions. I really appreciate you all for engaging and asking questions. Keep them coming!
1. Why can't you simply do a sway bar disconnect on the Toyota IFS (Prado platform specifically)? It is because Prado's sway bar end links mounts to the spindles. Most other vehicles mounts to the lower control arm. If you simply take out the end link, the sway bar will interfere and damage the outer CV and tie rod. You also cannot spin the sway bar 180 to get it out of the way with vehicle on the ground. The closest thing to a "disconnect" is the sliding end links. It does not allow full range of travel, other wise the sway bar will run into the CV like we just mentioned. It is definitely a good compromise, but existing products require extensive amount of maintenance due to all the poor sliding surfaces. Wander Lost Overland did a long term review on this. Go check out their channel!
2. Why can't you simply run extended end links for Toyota rear long travel kits? It is because if you run long enough end links for 28" long shocks, those end links will contact the lower links at compression. They essentially become the bump stops. The extended end links I have barely clears the lower links at full compression, and it is almost pulled straight and bind at full extension of my 26" long shocks. Yes, you can run my end links with 28" shocks. You are simply not getting the full droop of your shocks. The binding end links become your droop limiter and you risk them breaking over time.
These again illustrate the idea I stated in the video. "There are many interactions under the surface. The obvious answer at the first glance is often not comprehensive."
Kdss is solution and sway bar from Lexus sedanes with adjustable sway bars
I quote what you need to make your stock suspension better:
"Integral Suspension System (ISS)
The I.S.S. is a full suspension system that interconnects all 4 wheels of the vehicle through a central device. This interconnection allows independent control of all vehicle parameters (pitch, roll and tilt) without sacrificing comfort, and significantly improving driving in all situations. All this control is performed completely mechanically, without any sensor or actuator, which gives it an immediate response and high reliability." Patented and with prototypes and vehicles running since more than 10 years ago.
Possibly not with LT but I can disconnect and swing my sway bar up and not contact anything. I also have a quick disconnect I drew up on solid works but lost the file. It is a super simple solution and can use modified oem parts if you were to diy it. I've been looking for stone that Possibly wants to build and test them. I would but don't have the scratch for that at the moment unless I can find some off the shelf parts and hot glue them together hahaha. By the way. Owner of 2 2007 fjs 6mt. 140k, 180k.
My off road solution was to get a 957 Transsyberian. Looking for a 955 or another 957 with the electronic sway bar disconnect included in the "off road" package.
What I would like you to test is a set of ORI struts on your FJ Offroad
Sway bars are often used for controlling body roll and weight transfer at or near the limits of the tires, so you may not notice a dramatic difference with everyday on road driving, but when you need to make an emergency maneuver at highway speeds, it can be the difference between recovery from the maneuver and extreme oversteer/vehicle rolling over.
Pussy take!
Yeah I never noticed a huge difference without my sways until I had to lock my breaks up at 60mph and felt like k was going to roll over
@Layton Aschauer yeah my wife drives a excursion... I replaced everything under it but the links at the time so we drove it a week with out them..... night and day difference... got the new links in and it stuck to the road.... I feel sway bars are needed in solid axle leaf springs more
@@laytonaschauer3675 You lock brakes to stop a vehicle, thieves break locks to open them.
Very true, I’m not in an off roader, but I added a 28mm rear bar on my mk4 Jetta (+the 16mm bar permanently welded in the rear axle) with a stock 23mm front bar.
And when I push my car to the limit now, the rear end is happy to come out before the front end loses grip. Throttle lift oversteer is the best 😂.
It’s not “unsafe” but I would be worried if my mom drove my car and had to swerve while braking.
I’m definitely going to be following this data on my build. My rear sway bar broke and I’ve just been running as-is for a while but I now see I’m missing out on a bunch of front articulation by not forcing the front suspension to work, which leads to the rig feeling a bit tippy and makes it prone to wheel lifts off road.
nice
Man, I love your channel! This is exactly the kind of stuff I love geeking out on. You do an excellent job of breaking down the problem, explaining the possible solutions simply with pros and cons (with real data!), and managing to still feel concise and to the point.
Happen to not only be an FJ guy, heck might have already commented on this video, but I'm also into rc cars and trucks as a hobby where these exact principles are used and this has to be one of my favorite videos on CZcams. Just great. Kudos!
On-road performance - with rear sway bar only, that reduces grip on the rear which might lead to oversteer instead of the usual (and safer) understeer tendency of most unmodified vehicles. I know from racing a front wheel drive car with an open diff. We stiffened up the rear sway bar to help keep the front wheels on the ground giving better drive out of corners (same method that you show) but it changed the grip balance to the front making the car oversteer more often. Great video by the way. Love to see someone explaining how things really work instead of giving people what they want to hear.
I was just talking about the suspension travel with my GF re: solid axles vs. independent suspension. The amount of effort that went into making this video is phenomenal. I applaud you good sir!
its important to note that front/rear stiffness balance for road manners is important. Dramatically reducing the front stiffness can create a strong oversteer tendency, which is obviously not desirable on tall vehicles. The safer on road setup is to remove the rear to get miles of understeer. OR better yet, disconnectable front sway bar.
Good stuff, your videos are basically reinstating everything I learned over the years of messing around with my 4runner, I run no front sway bar, extended travel kings, SPC ucas, Icon long travel rear shocks, doninsons springs, OEM rear sway bar with extended links, panhard bar rise bracket and notched lower trailing arms. I love this setup, it gets me places!!! Dreaming of dirt king LT front! Thank you for your videos, I send them to all my IFS wheeling friends, especially when they ignore what I say about chasing caster and cab mount clearance! Haha
Great analysis, as always. Another thing I would like to know is; How much added stress is put on other parts, and what new weaknesses are added by removing the sway bar. I know the CV axles and ball joints are exposed to much more articulation and strain, but I don't know by how much. And, it would be good to know by how much the strain is amplified on these parts at the extremes of travel. As in, CVs aren't as strong at full-lock steering and droop or compression of the suspension -- but Toyota likely designed these tolerances with the sway bar or KDSS in place. It would be interesting to learn more about the amount of stress removal of the sway bar puts on these other critical parts, in relation to what they were designed for. The number of Yotas being recovered offroad due to balljoint and CV axle failure is pretty significant, so I suspect there's a tie to these other parts being impacted with removal of the sway bar.
The biggest reason to remove the front sway bar on ifs is to get true independant suspension, running rear extended links also helps retain the rear swaybar with max flex, my fj runs a true long travel rear with stock sway bar on extended links
Every video you post challenges my existing understandings, and you always show the results/data to back up your claims. I LOVE your channel and all the content you put out!
Making the sway bar more stiffer in the rear makes it really good for off road, but when you drive it on the highway and when there is a high speed corner your outer-rear wheel is loaded so high that it will loose traction and oversteer. But it will be fun to see how it drifts though 😉
drifts...with high center of gravity. I do NOT recommend.
@@anavan7at highway speeds i enforce upon it
@@anavan7kamaz truck days hi
It's not just about articulation.. Removing front swaybar from an IFS vehicle gives you truly independent suspension, and thus, a dramatically improved ride quality over bumps.
Yeah and will roll over like m151
Your videos keep getting better and better. Such relevant information that isn’t covered accurately in other DIY videos. Really appreciate your hard work!!
Because it's dangerous and only idiots does it
I recognize and appreciate the amount of work that went into all this testing, thank you! I suspected removing the front only was going to be the winner. That's what I run when I'm going on a trip where more flex is important. I originally started after installing a gas tank slid that made getting the rear bar off impractical, but I noticed that the flex was great and reasoned that it should indeed be loading the front more. I get full flex out of both the front and rear in this configuration. (2" lift, relatively light GX470)
A note for anyone about to go remove their front bar after watching this video: The ends of the sway bar are in just the right position to drop down and tear your axle boots. Drape a few rags over the boots to provide some protection.
Holy shit- the hitch rack at 13:47!? You have to be kidding me. I'm surprised it even remains attached to the vehicle.
I really appreciate your honest reporting and unbiased views about 4x4ing products and mods
I have a great real world example of this, I removed my front sway bar in my 06 dodge magnum as I live in an area with very bad roads, instantly I felt a noticeable difference in handling that felt better on bendy rough roads. I will admit on the highway at higher speeds it's much easier to notice a lack of stability but for my application it works and I have no plans of reinstalling it
The amount of work you did on this video is much appreciated!
Best videos on the net for information on vehicles. Cuts through all the opinions and ill-informed with proper information gained from hard work and actually trying. Thanks for the all the videos!
Kai always coming through with the hard hitting facts! Keep up the good work man! So relief that I was on the right track of the poll. Cheers!
How did I get sucked into this video? I drive a 911.
It’s your sign to join us in the off-road community. We welcome you. -c6 & tacoma owner
Run what you got is the first rule of offroading! I drive a 2000 accord! Lmao
There's the 911 dakar
Has it got swaybars?
@@heathmurphy3735 nope, and the accords lower center of gravity wven with 10” of clearence makes it comfortable to daily withought them too.
I have been running with out a front swaybar on my 3g4r since I had it and I like how it handles on road. After I installed my 3” lift I left the rears disconnected to see how it felt and it was too unstable for me.
Front disconnected , rear connected is perfect for me and I’m glad there’s some data to back that up now haha
Love your videos. Thank you!!
these videos you are makning on fj cruisers are amazing and really in depth. Please continue to make these. My brother and I are always in a battle with our off-roaders. He has a bronco now and I have my fj. Big comp between the two. Thanks!
This is brilliant stuff. Definitely the most detailed I've ever seen on this topic. I'm watching from Australia, I have a Toyota Fortuner so all this is relevant information. I've also watched your other videos and have found them to be equally as well done as this. Keep up the good work.
An excellent video - thorough, well tested and well justified. Thanks a load for this! Suspension is so much more complicated than people realise (me included): stiffness per corner, ride height, front to rear balance, roll centers, etc. etc. It's a mine field for anyone except a trained engineer! This did a great job of demonstrating complex interactions in "layman's terms".
For on road driving, I find most people say they can't feel a difference. This is probably true for normal driving. The problem is in abnormal situations like swerving, emergency breaking, and sliding etc. This is where there will be a huge difference when the sway bars are removed. Ask yourself, if you can't feel a difference, why not? Sway bars are there for a VERY good reason. So be dam careful!
Disconnect for off road and then reconnect for on road is the best solution in my opinion.
What a fantastic channel! I’m a software engineer with a 2022 Bronco Badlands, so some of the concepts apply, but it would be great to see this kind of data-driven approach on my vehicle. I’ll keep watching as it’s been very educational. Keep up the cool videos!
I'm currently driving a jeep commander, same platform as the grand cherokee from 2005-2010, they are solid rear axle and independent front suspension. your videos have been very informative with how isf front ends work. Quality videos man, keep em coming.
Kai, I love your channel. Some of the best Toyota-related content I could ever hope for, and super thankful for the information as I look at my recently acquired older GX460.
This is the best technical off road CZcams channel bar none. Sooooo good.
I see my photo at 8:37 😁 what a pleasant surprise! So I currently have an FJ Cruiser with front ext. travel coilovers and a rear long travel kit. Since it is my daily driver, I run with a front sway bar on but no rear, that way I can have the unrestricted articulation back there for the long travel as spoken of in the video. But what an enlightening investigation! I never expected the articulation for the front to improve with only the rear sway bar on. Makes me want to go home and take off the front but reinstall the rear with longer sway bar links! But at the same time I know how it feels to drive without the front on, so it is a trade off for sure.
Haha thanks for your photo! Unfortunately you cannot fit a long enough sway bar endlinks for your long travel shocks. The end link will be so long that it hit the lower link during compression (it becomes the bump stop essentially). So using the longest possible end links like mine, you will give up some down travel
@@TinkerersAdventure I had a buddy from the forums make me a set of rear quick disconnect sway bar links for long travel but I ran into your same issue. On full flex the custom sway bar links hit my rear lower link. So which rear links do you have exactly? I assume they are not OEM length but still not super long. After watching your video I do want to try out running the rear sway bar with longer links and removing the front sway bar. And maybe I will even get the stiffer rear sway bar while I'm at it!
As much as I like off roading and off road content, it gets monotonous watching variations of the same thing on every channel. But your content is unique and interesting. Keep ‘em coming!
good analysis! I have decades of experience setting up race car suspension, so I put that to use on my Gen 2 Tacoma. What I ended up doing was removing the front bar and adding a rear bar with custom links. I'm currently working with a bar manufacturer to build me a heavier bar (1" instead of 7/8"). The combination gives me a good balance of handling and predictable trail manners.
I’ve got a gen 3 taco I want to do this to, it might be interesting to see a video of your results so others (me) can copy it haha
All your videos have been great help. All your data and simple explanation of the IFS is the best I’ve seen.
I would like to see a panhard correction video from this channel.
Love these data driven videos! Fantastic as always!
Very eye-opening. I especially appreciate seeing the data. My 2004 Xterra is front IFS / rear solid axle. I've been thinking completely backward. Thank you for sharing information that I can sink my teeth into.
Absolutely phenomenal. Thanks for tackling so many relevant and misunderstood topics. I’m happy because the front off rear on w/extended links is what I landed on from my own trail experiences and now o have numbers to throw in my buddy’s faces lol. Honestly though I assumed i was still giving up more flex.
love to see something this informative but with the tacoma's leaf based system.
Man every video I watch from you confirms me more more and more… thanks god for made me find the channel of this guy!
As always great video and info
I love the analytical perspective vs urban offroad legend. Thanks Kai.
One of the best channels on CZcams. Thanks for the info!
Great video. KDSS and stock suspension on our GX460 has been excellent. Same for the KDSS 4runners. Thank you for your video
Trophy trucks use rear sway bar, thanks for showing why.
THANK YOU for actually answering this question. I have no idea why nobody else has bothered testing this. I've been recommending my friends remove their front sway bars on their Toyota trucks for off-road use. I've removed it from my Sequoia and while the truck definitely leans more with more cornering g force, as long as I drive like a "normal" person it's totally fine. Frankly, the Sequoia handled rather well so I simply cornered faster than necessary with the sway bar on. With it removed, I concur with all your results here. It performs notably better off-road but I do have to corner more cautiously on the road. Not a problem.
I have heard keeping the rear sway bar on helps but didn't really notice it until I switched to a Jeep with the disconnecting front sway bar, I leave the rear on and disconnect the front and get amazing results! Great video.
I love these data driven videos you post. Thanks for providing numbers > opinions.
I really appreciate how thorough you are with these test.
I dont have anything with ifs, but I always enjoy learning more about suspension function and this was a very well put together video thank you!
Very interesting and I learned a lot from your video. I too always heard people should remove swaybars and never thought of the other factors involved. Thanks for trying to teach and giving data from all of these combinations . 🙂
Incredible, data-driven video. Glad I stumbled onto this channel and excited to see more of your content!
You have the best info. Thank you for taking the mystery out of these mods.
What a great video going over a much debated topic. Solid analysis!
Very interesting, great video like always, thank you. I love how your actual testing gives us actual data.
Your videos are pure gold, thank you so much Kai for your amazing content!
Great information and great explanation! Keep up the awesome videos
This might be the best articulation guide video for Toyotas!!
I always leave the rear sway bar on my H3, and disconnect or remove the front for really rough roads. Keeping the rear installed indeed helps balance the articulation more evenly between front and rear, which actually maximizes stability and comfort.
I am a jeeper but I watch your videos as they are very informative automotively speaking. Keep it up 🙌
great video again Kai. No bs just pure informative content 👍👍👍👍
I daily drive a 2004 4Runner V6: firmer front springs, stock rear springs, approximately 1.5" lift, generic KYB gas dampers, upgraded bumpstops...and NO swaybars. It rides better on and off road, it handles only slightly worse, more traction off road and tows the same. If you JUST remove the swaybars on a stock vehicle, it sucks and is a bit unerving. However, with some thought put into the total package it makes a noticeable positive difference and a great well rounded dual sport truck.
Great video as usual. I learn a lot from you.
I love these informative videos from this very handsome man!
Your videos are the best dude. Actual data and examples.
Awesome video once again. Confirming what I measured on my Bronco, keeping the rear increases the travel most situations.
Rear sway bar for sure if you pull a trailer as well.
A sway bar transfers force from one wheel to the other, so your test results make a lot of sense.
You are the man! It’s so refreshing to see factual information!
Awesome vid. I had been curious to know what you'd make of the swaybar config options so I was excited to see this vid pop up. For the type of overlanding we do I think I'll just keep my swaybars connected, but it's good to have an idea of what to expect if I ever decide to experiment with taking off just the front.
Great video mate! Very good information!!!
I really like how he just presents data and leaves it up to us as to what we should do for our own rigs. Most people will say stuff like "you have to do this to do that," but Kai (sp?) knows there are many ways to skin a cat and many different applications so there is not a "one size fits all" solution.
You keep changing my build plans man haha thank you for the insights!
I took my front bar off 10 years ago on my 1990 4RUNNER and have never looked back BEST THING I HAVE DONE for it for off road ! I have my rear on and never disco it!!! Am adding new links on the rear dont need to DISCO the rears ever !!!
Love your content man! Your approach to this type of stuff is greatly appreciated.
I can’t wait until you address headlights and how many people break the law and make driving more dangerous for everyone with incorrect light sources in their factory reflector assemblies.
What a great video dude. I love your work.
Well made video excellent production value and sound quality. Great work
Very well prepared video. Great data. Clear and organized presentation.
Yes another video is out. Love your vids!
Cracking content as always Kai. This is what youtube videos should be about. Great insight.
CZcams always suggests the best quality of nerd material in the world, love it. Great content buddy🫡
Awesome video !! I love the scientific approach and testing !
This is exactly what I was needing. Thankyou for the video
I daily drive my FJ Cruiser with no front or rear sway bars. Has improved the ride quality immensely, doesn’t make the vehicle floppy on the Highway, and I tow a huge trailer full of racing equipment.
The improvements both off road and in the urban jungle of St Louis, along with gravel back roads, cannot be denied.
Very well executed video! Learned something here and plan to be back for more videos. 👊🏼
Thanks a lot for doing this video. Highly valuable testing and analysis. That should also put at rest the current discussions of why the LC 250 "only" has a front sway-bar disconnect.
These are really good videos- love the thought you're going into to prove things- genuinely valuable. thank you :)
Thank you for the detail and testing that goes into these videos. Super helpful and subscribed. might take the front swaybar off of my 100 series Land Cruiser now
Such a great video man!! 👏👏
I don't care a lot about sway bars or off roading but I love how he presents and conduct his reaserch
I just learned something very important. Thanks!
One thing I don’t think can be argued is the improvement of ride quality off roading (not to be confused with vehicle control) when running no sway bars at all. I only do slow speed crawling and like running no sway bars at all. My rig rocks around a lot less with no bars
Love these videos! Real testing rocks !
Really great video. I like how you presented the data. My first car was a 61 beetle. Small front sway bar only. Terminal understeer.
Added a larger front sway bar and rear sway bar and it drove flatter and was more responsive.
Removed front sway bar when I went to a more modern front suspension. Handling dry was fine. But on a slippery crowned 2 lane road, passing another car, it started fishtailing then did a 180. Surprising and dangerous. I realized it was due to having too much stiffness on the rear. I'd be interested how yours handles on a wet and dry skid pad. Better to find any unexpected habits in testing than in traffic.
Auto manufacturers make most all their vehicles under steer for safety reasons. They use a massive front sway bar to accomplish this because it’s inexpensive to do but bad for flex and getting loose.
Awesome video, testing, and presentation. Thank you
Amazing video, so glad I found your channel as I got started on modifying my gen 1 Sequoia :)
Great work mate 🙂
Interestingly when the Land Rover Discovery first came out in 1989, only the top trim level had a rear sway (anti-roll bar ,UK). It was several years before they added one at the front (1992 with the 5 door, 7 seat model). UK market. The Range Rover had them earlier. The RR, Disco and old Defender are basically the same mechanical stuff and a slight difference in chassis.
Rear bar will help reduce roll oversteer which on long, soft coils makes quite a difference on the road.
Another factor that is useful to think about is axle diff locks. Sway bars can help to push the weight into the stuffed wheel which can gain traction with a diff lock. At the expense of stability so risking tipping.
As in life it is all a compromise.
Cheers.
Well presented, well researched, and eye-opening for me, as a n00b to off road. Thank you!!
This was a super interesting video, and very well presented. Good stuff buddy! I was super surprised that only removing the front yields more total articulation than removing both. I didn't comment ahead of time, but I thought it would decrease front and rear articulation by some amount. Sending this video along to some of my off-road Subaru buddies.
This took a lot of work. Nice job.
Great video. Thank you for sharing. Keep on keepin on
awesome stuff, been preaching running just a rear bar for a long time. It works fantastic on my titan swapped NP300 navara
In the track racing world, when you add a sway bar (or increase the stiffness), you reduce the spring rates.
This gives a little bit more comfort.
In my 300TDi Defender, I run without sway bars front and rear, but with beefed up "rally style valved" shock absorbers. Pretty nice! 👌
Yep, heavy bars/light springs are what I ran on cars. Really the same on Jeeps!
Very good explanation, thank your for this video!