Colour Crime: GW's Biggest Blunder in design history revealed!
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- čas přidán 22. 07. 2024
- There's a shared observation that the Stormcast Eternals look a lot like a specific group of Space Marines. And as the Stars of the replacement game to Warhammer Fantasy Battles, Age of Sigmar, some of their design decisions may have been the cause for the Anguish of some players wanting to play AoS. In this video we break down why that might be.
Timestamps
0:00 Introduction
0:49 Colour Psychology
4:53 Design Craft
10:01 Outro
10:33 Post Credit Joke
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#warhammer #warhammer40k #paintingwarhammer #paintingwarhammer40k #miniature #painting #miniaturepainting #miniaturepaintings #WAYPN #stormcast #stormcasteternals #colors #colour #colours #colorpsychology #colourpsychology #design #designthinking #aos #ageofsigmar
Oh and if anyone is wondering why we have two spellings of colour on our title its so we hit both of them with the algorithm
Timestamps
0:00 Introduction
0:49 Colour Psychology
4:53 Design Craft
10:01 Outro
10:33 Post Credit Joke
This is very interesting and can actually help us painter in choosing army colour schemes.
Maybe a video guide that helps going from "what colours I like and might go well together?"
To a more reasoned "what do I want to tell, what's the mood and attitude of my army?"
That sounds like you are hitting on something important, I bet with a more refined "clickbait" title that could be a real good new series... It already has my juices flowing. We are just very bad at that titling and thumbnail stuff and maybe a little too honest ha ha - Cal
That does sound like a good idea because we received quite a few comments on our colour theory videos where people just chose colours that they liked and asked for our assessment of what it means but...the meanings of the colour combinations didn't quite make sense after we saw them. Also we don't think analysing people's personal colour choices is exactly good for the algorithm 😅😅- Sunny
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow who knows, maybe a separate serie of low effort, no cut, react type videos where you review and comment on colour schemes you receive pictures of..?
Might attract people. The chance to have our models featured on a CZcams video sounds like the highlight of someone's month 🙂
We have talked about it and already have an idea for a quick video around it because we did a longer video on something similar... But it's a bit to dry which is practical application of colour psychology and theory. We are thinking about doing a thing on red white and blue we will look into it may not this but next week we have a very big video planned for this coming Sunday (it's Sunday for us btw) - Cal
This is one where I think you guys are inadvertently building a camel, aka a horse built by committee. Everyone gives their well meaning input but at the end the result isn’t what was intended. The whole point of the helmet design being inhuman, emotionless, even grim and macabre is on purpose. Side stepping the obvious “sigmarine” comparisons for now; and let’s evaluate just on their own narrative elements. The Stormcast Eternals aren’t reincarnations of humans from the old world. The old world was destroyed, chaos won, hard stop, page break, mic drop, end of setting. Yes the S.E. are composed of generals, and fighters, but of the new millennia long history of the realmgate wars and preceding conflicts. Composed is the key, they are created out of desperation. Their souls are taken by Sigmar to be his fighting force incarnate (without consent or allegiance I might add), doomed to an existence of fighting, dying, being reforged and recast, over and over each time losing that little bit more of their essential humanity. Their otherworldly visage is intended to be unnerving, unsettling, unrecognizable, so they cannot be confused with mortals. With this in mind your notion of human culture based head swaps doesn’t make sense. Nor does the appeal to cross cultural marketing for GW, who are historically bad at it.
All that said I think your comparisons to 40K aren’t too far off. Many Warhammer fans, myself included, did not like the porting of space marines narrative and form into a fantasy setting. The narrative of a God-like ruler (with dubious motives) creating his elite warriors purpose built to fight chaos in over sized armor doesn’t take a hard look to see where that is in 40K. Your comparisons to the Sanguinary guard are good on the surface, if a little lacking in detail. Yes the Sanguinary lean into the gold and red and even have death masks. But the colors speak more to the prestige and passion of the Blood Angels elite honor guard. Their sculptural motifs of blood drops and other blood or grail focused iconography of the chapter furthers that context. The Stormcast Eternals on the other hand are the creation of a thunder god with a big hammer, hence the name, all the lightning iconography, and deep saturated blues and white. Never mind that we already know GW loves blue and gold, with big pauldrons for marketing, right Ultramarines? But what about the masks? In the Blood angels these are worn in life the machine spirit within is so loyal to the wearer that after death it miraculously takes on the detailed image of the wearer. This is the inverse of the Stormcast’s robotic dead pan image that covers an ill gotten soul.
As always your videos are thought provoking, and well put together. Even if some of us out here disagree with your analysis keep up the good work. It’s really enjoyable to watch.
We are happy for people to disagree with us just so long as it is polite, which I think you have been. It is a bit long I understand the comment about "building a camel" however I would strongly disagree for a few reasons. They are basically the ones we laid out in the video about the death masks, which I think flys in the face of most of Asia... that's going to cause some problems if you want to open your market up. Also, the lore does state that these heroes come from different cultures. That's why we recommend the different helmets for the new world. So, that the old and new worlds can come together rather than completely abandoning the old.
And comments like this "The old world was destroyed, chaos won, hard stop, page break, mic drop, end of setting." That doesn't get people onside. If you are a company and you pick a fight with your customer base by taking actions like that, it's not going to end well.
I think you really love the lore of Warhammer and aren't taking a look at this as a producer. You're looking at as a consumer, as YOU as the consumer, and I think once you look to the greater whole. I think you will find that your focus is quite narrow. Comments like "Your comparisons to the Sanguinary guard are good on the surface, if a little lacking in detail." You are saying I understand why people would think that but they are wrong. Maybe if a tremendous number of people pretty much say the same thing maybe they have a point?
Honestly, if I was being smart, I just wouldn't reply (because saying nothing is the safest bet as a CZcamsr) but I think you are trying your level best to be genuine and I am trying to do the same. But I think you really need to take a look outside of the very small circle of people in the deep lore of the hobby and just look at the surface...
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and flies like a duck... - Cal
Definitely the coolest title. While I do like the kitbashed/combined arms army approach, my admittedly very limited knowledge is that the Stormcast are created, essentially soul forged by Sigmar to be “his” army. They would only be as cool as he would let them.
Obviously, Sigmar’a sense of flair is greatly lacking. I do wonder if the quantity of gold is a hindrance. Ultramarines are blue and gold, they look awesome. 😂
The ultramarine look great cause of their order of colour withe 60-30-10 rule we actually break it down in another video practical application of colour psychology and theory if you are interested - Cal
P.S it's a bit dry to be fair
With the ultramarines they are also predominantly blue and gold is only used as a minority colour, gold accentuates blue's more positive meanings whereas gold's negative meanings are accentuated by the blue as the minority colour -Sunny
I really like the death mask helmet design. My Stormcast are painted red and I've painted some teal and red for a friend. But I can see how gold and blue would be easy for a beginner painter.
We have nothing against the colour scheme personal we just think it was a poor choice for an opener for AoS - Cal
The color analysis is interesting but Im gonna have to disagree with adding more generic fantasy helmets to them. I prefer the idea of making the deathmasks different from each other but keeping the motif.
Thanks and it's okay to disagree but I feel based off your comment it's more a personal thing than a marketing thing like we are speaking about - Cal
in only 12 minutos you two have encapsulating all that i don't like about the stormcast eternals design wise, great video
I am glad you feel heard - Cal
Ah damn yeah that head idea is 🔥
Can't claim it as our idea 💡 but it is a great idea - Cal
The new Slimcast helmets are cool. Reminds me of the owl in Clash of the Titans
Aracamede's gift? - Cal
I actualy like gold and blue, healmets could be better but I dont really hate them.
Still a good video!
Thank you, we feel that enough people feel strongly that we should make a video on it - Cal
When painted my first stormcast model it definitely had its weird moments.
But my solution was giving them a grim dart style of painting. I went with gold and accent colors to show their heritage.
But the grimdark style goes so well with their stock helmets, rust, verdigris, blood, gore, and battle damage really brings out their design.
That sounds really interesting but I am having trouble picturing it anywhere I could see pictures? - Cal
Great video. Thank you.
You are welcome! 🤗 - Cal
Well, now that Age of Sigmar 4.0 trailer is out, what do y’all think of the silver and blue colour scheme that GW seems to be pushing for the stormcast instead of the usual gold and blue? I personally think it’s a much better colour scheme
I thought the animation was great but I will be honest I didn't pay attention to the colour scheme or give it the thought I should - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I thought the animation was great too! Just thought it was interesting that they decided to change the colour scheme of the stormcast all of a sudden, maybe GW realised the gold and blue isn’t for everyone?👀👀
Looking at the animation I think the new colour scheme looks a lot better - Cal
I love NMM when it’s well done. However I factually prefer TMM, with the proper washes or oil wash, it looks just like real metal.
I really like well done TMM (True Metallic Metal) and looks just as good as Non Metallic Metal when its done all the way - Cal
That's really interesting, do you think that the the stability of the blue has the effect of taking the "I'm the hot new thing and you've got to like me" from the gold and adding "and I'm here to stay (like it or not)"?
So the answer for this is very boring but difficult. So blue mostly reinforces gold's negative traits due to its cold and static nature. But there is more to it than that unfortunately. I can't do it all now as I have to answer other commenters, but I can tell you how to do it. Go to our in-depth colour psychology video get the list of the three categories for blue (colour profile, positive and negative traits) and the three for gold as well. Read over blue's traits circle anything that reinforces gold's traits and then do the same for the things that clash, then cross those ones out. - Cal
Cal is right on that 😅 we did a video called practical application of colour psychology and theory and let's just say...that video is very dry but it does go through how to figure out how the meanings changed when paired together -Sunny
I showed two friends who only have the slimmest idea about Warhammer AoS the latest Liberator comparison, they both liked more the new Thunderstrike armor, one liked more the new helmet and the other liked the original, and both liked more the gold than the silver one.
Sounds like an interesting little experiment - Cal
Interesting! If you do more of these it would be cool to see what other models and factions are flawed in terms of color psychology and design. (Obviously fantasy has a unique element in that they really did their playerbase dirty.)
Yeah we think that they did do them dirty in a way that says "here like space marines even more!!" What are your thoughts on our breakdown do you have a different perspective? Anything you agreed or disagreed with? ~Sunny
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I'm ashamed to say I haven't played any fantasy so I wouldn't be able to make an educated opinion. That being said, the more human factions (like Stormcast) have never been my thing. I find models like the Nighthaunt and the Woodland Dryads far more interesting. The textures and colors and whole design is wonderful for those. Stormcast are just.. golden dudes. Coming from 40k it's not even that ground breaking against Blood Angel Sanguinary Guard or Custodies. No shade against those who like it though!
@@ShockArcl1te Well I really liked the combined Elves forces when it was the End Times but, that didn't take long to end so I didn't really get to play it ha ha :/
Night Lords' colour psychology is perfect, no contest
Actually, I can't recall whether Cal and Sunny have visited them yet.
@@odinlindeberg4624 I think we have but I am not sure where it was basically they are just dark Ultramarines with their colour scheme - Cal
Well Cal, you were right. Awesome video bro 👍
Glad you enjoyed, and thank you, we try very hard to deliver quality content - Cal
It sounds like a really cool idea with the heads. I've never been into AOS. But just hearing this idea made want to play. IF they made that change
Well you can do it yourself! There is nothing stopping you from making the head swap or doing a colour change - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow very true! But although i love kitbashing i still dont like space marines in a fantasy setting... 🙃
I am looking into starting up Warcry though 😁
I love the channel i feel like I've learned a lot about color theory ❤️
@@SuperSunhigh Thanks good luck to you in your painting journey! -Cal
Great video, thank you. Though I heavily disagree with GW having to expect drama in the community between true metal and non metallic metal painters. Haven't ever seen that in my GW shop either.
That they borrowed the custodes look from 40k seems pointless, when you look at the history of the games. WFB came first, then it was "Sci-fantasiszed" for 40k. Elves to space elves, orcs to space orks. The two games constantly borrow ideas from each other.
I don't play AoS, but I think the stormcast look fine. Regardless of how anyone feels about the end of WFB and the coming of AoS, I just can't get behind the idea of not making them gold or shiny because they didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings.
Oh yeah Space Marines are totally a redesign of the classic Chaos Warriors from fantasy but I feel with the Sanguinary Guard and Stormcast it was too much of a "can I copy your homework" "Okay but don't make it too obvious" - Cal
I guess after seeing the comparison between the Sanguinary Guard and the Stormcast Eternals...You kind of can't unsee it...And in my opinion, if you are going to make something new, just make it new and not a carbon copy. Just seemed like low effort on their part with that decision ~Sunny
Yeah, pretty much spot on with the psychology in my opinion, came across as 'look, now isnt this better than all that other stuff' and obviously people were invested in what they already had. So it was just an insult.
This was an interesting analysis and it leaves me a bit torn on GW's design.
I know absolutely nothing about Warhammer Fantasy lore or gameplay so I have no dog in this fight, but the best thing I can say is that with the yellow/blue/red (for models with the plume) it does give some generic "hero" vibes. Something like the old yellow/blue/red X-men costumes. So maybe GW hoped that people would make that kind of association with the Stormcast Eternals?
That being said, I could NEVER figure out who the heroes or forces of good were supposed to be in AOS just by looking at the models. And I think it's for the reasons you hit on - they're essentially faceless and cold looking men of gold. So... are they only good in the way that many 40k factions are "good?"
Anyway, I like this concept for your videos. Might be cool to do turn it into a series if you think it's less research and time invested than the 40k design vs lore stuff. Thanks!
We actually break down what makes the generic good guy colours here
czcams.com/video/0qipCbRmTO4/video.html
Practical application of colour psychology and theory
They actually have a REALLY cool backstory, they are essentially the allegory for war. So, Stormcast never 'die' they get sent back to Azer (probs spelling that wrong) but everytime they get sent back they lose a part of themselves, their memory is wiped a bit but not intentionally. Essentially its about how dehumanizing war is! Which I think is absolutely fantastic story telling - Cal
I painted my Hammer of Sigmar, by adding silver to joints and inner armour parts (inner arms, thighs ETC.) And black in to the clothes and inner parts of the joints. Just to break away from all of the gold parts.
How did I make you feel about them after? - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow i kinda agree... my cousin told me once that, it was a little over-whelming with all the gold. However i still like the easthetic of them, I love the death masks and the focus on metallics and imo I feel they were necesary for what GW wanted to show on AoS.
Perhaps but I think gold death masks are a bit much like we said just a colour change can do alot - Cal
I clicked on the video ready to write hateful words, but the 30 second mark changed my mind. You made an excellent argument.
We try not to hate for hate's sake enough of that already out there. But we do believe in giving solutions - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow my comment was a jest, I had to write a comment after the gag at the start got a laugh out of me.
Nice video! I hate those sex doll masks!
I am about to start an SCE army, any suggestions on the color scheme, I need inspiration. Gold and blue are not in the menu! Thanks
Ah ha ha ha I have not heard that term to describe them - Cal
I started a Stormcast army & gravitate more towards bare heads than the masks - because the masks are pretty mediocre interest wise. Also I went with a my own colours, because I find that the main promoted colour schemes are uninspiring... and ended up with a totally generic, uninspired, colour choice :/
Interestingly GW use the idea of City:Stormcast alliance in the reverse to your suggestion. I.e. a number of Cities of Sigmar schemes reflect the Stormcast host garrison of that city... as opposed to the SCEs reflecting their history.
A number of Stormcast host descriptions indicate that they bring evidence of their previous lives to their uniforms, it's just that GW don't do anything to actually allow that to occur.
Ahh I remembered it from HeyWoah's video on it but I was thinking at the time... hey that is freaking brilliant using the old 40k Allies thing and you bring people into the setting absolutely fantastic! Why didn't they do this at the start?
But there is no reason why they couldn't do the reverse... hmm that maybe an interesting video I am going to have a think on this one... - Cal
I love face masks and wouldn't change them for anything!
Many nations at different periods of time used helmets with visors imitating a human face. This is to protect the face from blows, as well as for psychological impact, and it worked!
What is especially important is that face masks are often found in the art of the warrors of my people, so Stormcasts are very attractive to me.
this is pretty mutch why I disliked/borderline hated the stormcast, I also think the stormcast design from their first edition looked just bad but I love the new thunderstrike models to bits, with them my only critique is that they are in full plate with a spear and shield, I would have prefered someform of polearms and no shield but its only a small thing for me with me being a historical nerd.
I do have some stormcast I am painting, I dont think I will ever play with them in AoS as I am a very big fan of the soulblight gravelords and daughters of khaine and even then doubt I will play AoS, my preffered fantasy game if MESBG
So do you think the changes we recommended might get you more into painting/playing them? - Cal
Bloody hell Sunny 🤣🤣🤣
What, What I do? 🤭🤣🤭 ~Sunny
What? Sunny didn't do anything... did she? - Cal
Meh, I've switched to other systems; I've never play GW again. Ending WHFB wasn't the mistake, that was understandable, it was the way it was done that closes the door to many peoples return.
Totally agree, it was that people felt abandoned and that they were taken for a ride. May I ask if they did something similar to what we suggested that you would have felt more included? - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow no, it was more due to the lore. They didn’t have to destroy the old world to replace it. If AoS was a good game, people would have switched to it if it were in the same setting at a different scope or something else related to WHFB like it is (battles of the warp powers, bringing back the gods of order,or whatever), but since they trashed the world I liked to play in, that had decades of cool history, I have no reason not to move my dwarfs/empire/chaos dwarfs to a different setting where they can live on as they were.
@@ironknight132 fair enough, well we endeavor to create solutions but I don't think we can solve that one - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I am pretty happy with OPR rules wise, still play and grow the same armies. Heck with 3d printing I’m probably painting more than ever, just outside of GWs ecosystem.
My initial problem with them that, before the Cities of Sigmar recent release, they were pretty much a replacement instead of a supplement, while bearing no qualities of the thing people liked about FB.
I think making their designs more derived from the Empire would be a much better idea. Because they really felt like jump pack-less Sanguine's golden bois.
I mean, come on, people played Empire and Bretonnia in FB for knights, mercs and peasants. Sigmarites felt really out of place.
But over the years I learned to appreciate them more.
Still totally agree with both the design of helmets and default colors. I'm not an AoS player, but I'm sure that Cities of Sigmar would be my default choice precisely because of the reasons above.
I think all of those points are totally fair but I think unfortunately if we voiced some of them they could be divisive. However I think all those points are totally fair - Cal
🔥🎸🔥
i will paint them black :)
You guys need to work on your delivery a bit. It feels like you are reading off a script, which you are, but it shouldn't feel like that.
Thank you for the comment we actually have bullet points where we go back and forth but we focus on annunciation so that international viewers understand what we are saying - Cal
When it comes to the "Sig marines" I do not like all that gold, really it would be a layer polished brass over steel and the helmets all made to be death masks is excessive, that should be for certain character models. I'd prefer a more grounded color scheme and helmets that look more functional and much less ceremonial. Age of Sigmar needs to be more lore friendly and wallet friendly and have lots and lot of options to pull me in and play, GW has lost their minds when asking for $65 to $75 for a boxed set of five plastic figures, they seem to think they're the only company in town that makes miniature wargames! Pricing like that makes Warhammer much less inviting to newcomers and longtime hobbyists and more of a status thing for those rich enough to plunk down the coin. Also, 3D printers are getting very, very good these days and with GW getting really woke and anti-consumerist, they are losing costumers left and right now!
Sanguine guard??.. I always thought the sigma dudes were just custodes rip offs.
Take a look you will notice more similarities to them - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow now that you mention it, it does look like they took the lower half of a custodes and the top half of a sanguine guard.
Sanguine guards bottom half is your typical space marine stuff.
But the custodes bottom half is more akin to the fantasy with the plate armour and the robes, the two armour plates coming from the side of the hips..
Relictor chest plate and one of the shoulders I'd say is more on the custodes side too...
But the helmets, and the chestplates and sholder pads of most stormcast is deffo sanguinary you are right.
But the bottom half a custodes I think.
Custodes look better than both in my opinion.
But then again, I play custodes so yeah.
@@StigPrice The way we looked at it was more that they just fantasy-ized the Sanginary but I can see how you see that - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I wonder if that's actually how they came up with the design? "Hey guys, we need army designs for the new fantasy game the we are releasing to replace the old world, which I think people are going to love btw, I need to see design presentations by the end of the day"... A few moments later..."so I've got an idea for the stormcast, what do you think?"
"Aren't those custodes?"
"No they look more like sanguinary guards"
"They are neither, look at the robes, they are blue! They are 100% original designs and not photoshops, of sanguinary bodies spliced onto custodes legs with the robes painted blue, which I made in a hurry as I wanted a long lunch break today"
Ha ha 🤣 - Cal
NMM is never convincing, no matter what people say
I understand what you are saying, I think I can be but it takes far too much effort to pull off - Cal
Hmmmm I'm not too sure about that I've seen some pretty realistic looking metal textures through NMM but I can get how it breaks the illusion once you turn it around - Sunny
I think that is what he is talking about with the never convincing thing - Cal
Hard disagree but each to their own
Just say you can't do it, it's fine to admit that.
@@viktordickinson7844 And there is the elitism we talked about in the video... - Cal