Should we BOTHER fitting CAPPING? | Thomas Nagy
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 23. 07. 2024
- Why should we be fitting capping? Such as small thing but yet it not only can cut your costs but reduce your time on site! It almost seems too good to be true. WELL, in this video I'll be going into a bit of detail on why you SHOULD be fitting capping. I'll be exploring the view of the customer, contactor and the law. HOPEFULLY at the end of this video, you'll agree with some of the points I made.
If you do end up enjoying the video then make sure to subscribe and if you want to see anymore videos from me then make sure to subscribe.
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â¶ïž Timecodes âïž
đ” 0:00 - Intro
đŽ 0:45 - An overview (Price is the main problem)
đ” 2:37 - Price the job slightly higher, but WHY?
đŽ 3:13 - Contractors point of view
đ” 3:29 - The Clients perspective
đŽ 5:40 - The legal side of things (Looking at the regs)
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â¶ïž WARNING âïž
This video is for entertainment purposes only. If you use the information from this video for your own projects then you assume complete responsibility for the results.
Good ol' Betty Crocker. She's either tripping down a flight of stairs, or buying endless houses and having re-wires! đđ€Ł
She's the one keeping the industry alive if anything!
Youâd have thought sheâd have told Schlep & Kovak to put the stairs lights on a different RCD by now đ
I wouldn't be her insurer, that's for certain.
Get well soon, Betty.
We fit oval tube as its faster and lower cost than clipping overall. Its not mechanical protection though. Flat twin and earth encased directly in plaster complies with all those regs you listed. All of them. The only small benefit from a safety point of view is agaisnt the plasters trowel. In narrow chases its a none issue.
I totally agree it looks a lot better from a clients points of view, can help with future rewiring and saves on grometts into back boxes.
But it is no more compliant than just clipping cable to a wall. Suggesting a spark is mediocre for not using capping is a bit harsh lol.
If we want to improve on twin and earth in a wall from a safety point of view would be via containment in earth metallic conduit or using swa. Is that a costs clients need to suffer when carefully clipped and tested cable offers the same service and less destruction to the building during installation? Maybe those writing the regs have thought this out.
Still overall I am with you. Capping/tube looks better and is quicker.
Each to their own, lift others higher.
I think naga is on thin ice here, he's certainly not john ward or photoinuction, wind your neck in ffsđđ
My thoughts exactly, as long as its in the zone you can clip direct ? I mean if someone bangs a nail in where your cable is, its liable to go straight through the capping anyway, and the cost would fall on the builder
I'm still not buying in on the capping thing here. Cables already have mechanical protection. If it was used for protection then a nail would go right the plastic, so why not use metal conduit.
Reality often is if anything goes to court which is very rare, then 7671 pretty much gets pushed to one side.
I respect the angle Tom's taking but I don't agree tbh
Itâs not easier when u get good at metal capping u can do it so quick and it looks so much better at the end of the day
@@Josh-bs3ey kinda what I said
You're wrong. Nowhere in the regs does it specify a requirement for capping or tubing. It does specify RCD protection though for new installations and thats all you need at this moment in time in terms of protection against shocks for cables buried less than 50mm. If it was so important the regs would specify it for example in the presence of certain external conditions like damp in the fabric of the building. totally agree it looks better and if the customer was prepared to pay for it i would every time but thats not the way it goes unfortunately. Show me a single court case where a spark has been prosecuted for not fitting capping and someone died or just got a shock? to suggest a barrister would wrap you up like a kipper in court is laughable. stop it man
ur dim
@@GameLifts dim but efficient like a 8w led
I do wish to see a contractor to be found guilty of this then Iâll believe Thomas. Until then you are right sir
Ive just slapped a 2.5 at the wall for a tv socket, filled straight on top, I'm bricking it if council finds out đ€Ł
Just run armoured everywhere - it's the only way to be sure...;-)
surely wireless is the way to go.....
How about using the actual electrical protection devices such as RCBOs and saving the customer an extra layer of plastic on their wires...
I think you guys have excellent arguments as to why a court wouldn't be able to find you guilty or negligent.
@@SqwarkParrotSpittingFeathers I would find him guilty, just for saying 'chicken dinners' :o)
You can still hammer a nail into armoured
As a mechanical protection, its more to stop a plasterer catching a cable, i do it because it looks neat and more recently i've been doing kitchen, lounge switch drops in 20mm pvc conduit, the plus side i got a call from a previous client asking wether they could have the downlights in the kitchen on 2 switches.. bingo bango i was able to slip another t&e down the conduit split the circuit without damaging any of their new freshly decorated kitchen ... now im pricing for a friend of there's rewire ..
... theirs rewire.
@@denislostinlondon199 everyone check out this guy, he can correct peopleâs spelling. Omg heâs so cool
@@denislostinlondon199 I'm dyslexic and your reply makes me piss đ
How does Betty Crocker get a shock from wiping a wall down?
đđđ just what I was thinking
Tom, I like your vids generally and as someone who also takes pride in his work, applaud the thrust of "a picture paints a thousand words" when some one looks at oval conduit in a neat chase... and that used to be my stance running cacles in concealed conduit. I think however you are misquoting the BBB to justify your argument.
I would be keen to see the design considerarations/calculations of having 2 or 3 (maybe more) T&E stuffed into conduit when it comes to the load CCC of the design. Cg etc and the difficulty for cables to dissapate heat in conduit compared to the heatsink of bonding. Now I don't have the books to hand to look up installation methods but I'm pretty certain it has to be considered as lowering the CCC.
The only reason to cover cables in a chased walll is so when the plasterer comes over to bond it in, they don't knick the cables with his trowel, exposing conductors. I've gone over to using British Gypsum OneCoat to secure cables in the wall before leaving it just below the plaster for the skim coat and takes me a few minutes. An IR test beforehand tells me if there is damage that might cause an issue to Betty Crocker with her wet sponge cleaning it off afterwards. The RCBO would save her receiving a shock from the damp plaster in any case. The plasterer can do the skim coat with no chance of me having to go back.
If Betty later decides she wants to hang a picture on the wall and hammers through my cables, the fact that they are heating up in oval conduit less that 50mm below the surface and protected by Kryptonite-like (NOT!) PVC conduit will not cause the nail to bounce off the capping/conduit, even metal capping: but will pierce it as though it wasn't there, the RCBO will then come into play..
The other consideration on an horizontal run, in zone say between sockets is the safety of the wall where you cannot chase any more than a sixth of the wall thickness to keep the integrity of the structure. If the wall is 100mm as internal wall oftern are, you are limiting the depth to 16.66mm.
I am a huge advocate of levelling up the industry but not necessarily here. I am happy to proved wrong though.
Exactly... Save the customer the extra work that capping requires and invest into the actual electrical protection devices such as RCBOs.
Your last point was the main point. If you walk into a takeaway, which I did, and see a oven being run off an extension lead, I know the refrigerators are full of out of date food. It's the same as checking out the toilets, before sitting down in a restaurant. Point: if a business is slacking in one area, they are likely slacking in all areas. The same reason why police pull you over if you have a light out, likelihood, they will find more. Food health and safety pretty much run off this no smoke without fire to give businesses a zero star, which is why paperwork, records and risk assessments are so important.
Firstly, your videos 5 or 6 years ago when I first set my business up inspired me to want to improve my work and knowledge every day, I learned a lot, very quickly from you and it is important to let you know I appreciate it.
That being said, capping unless it is galvanised steel conduit for instance, does not meet the requirements for mechanical protection. If you were to wire outside the zones for example, simply fitting capping would not comply however installing steel conduit would.
By the way I use capping on every installation so I do also agree with you that we should all be fitting it.
I also and agree with your perspective on doing things over and above. I was once taught the regulations should be complied to as a minimum standard. Keep up the good work and I will keep watching your content.
From Australia, your content in terms of business and how to set up and work towards growth has driven me to take the next step and invest alot into my electrical business. one can never forecast the future but I'm confident in my own ability to succeed. Thank u for the extra motivation.
Glad to see you back. Love you all and your videos. Top Man âșïž
A few years back, I skimmed our kitchen. I put my hand on the wet plaster to see if it was ready to trowel off and got chucked backwards across the room. After a little bit of investigation, when they nailed up the galv capping, they'd nailed through the cable too. The wall was presumably dry enough for this to not be noticed until someone chucked wet plaster over it. Couldn't pull the damaged cable out as it had been nailed in place, so had to hack my nice new plaster off the wall đ€Ł
You could have waited for it to dry ... đ€
230v chucked you across the room.lol
@dvrn86 yes it does happen
@@dvrn86 , yes a shock of 230V will chuck you across a room very effectively âŠ
@@andyxox4168 how? The shock makes you jump? What force from a shock could throw you across a room. (Electrician, shocked countless times, know many electricians that have been shocked many times. Only diy and homeowners tell us their thrown across the room stories) đ€·ââïž
Personally,
I was always taught that anything in a building where wall-chasing happens or fitting cabling behind false walls, you always use medium density electrical conduit to afford mechanical protection to the wiring you install.
You do this from the fittings up to roof space height.
It comes down to Workmanship and the safety of what you install, sure you can't stop anyone down the track drilling through your conduit, but it just gives your wiring a lot better protection.
Thanks for bringing this up, Tom.
3 advantages to capping 1 is that it offers protection between first and second fix, 2 is when itâs plastered it has a hollow sound behind the plaster so easily identified and 3 thereâs like a 10% chance youâll get another cable down it
Heat dissipation too.
Like you videos. In Denmark where i come from, we never use capping. Some times, we put the conduit in the wall for easy replacement, but never for protecting the cable.
Tom, I love your passion for what you do, you are a credit to your trade. I also love your scenarios in your presentations. You should do some lecturing at colleges, you certainly would keep your audiences attention đ
This is why we run all our cables in "tubes". Good protection and you can replace the cable should it get damaged. But thats with 3 loose wires in the pipe. Easy to drag in a new pair :D
Often you donât have the depth you need for a tube.
Thanks Thomas. A great resume of what is needed. Better to go that extra half mile and find you didn't need to go there, than to get there and find you missed the mark.
Completely agree with you Tom, I always use oval capping and a first fix looks so much better and neater
Thank you I live in New Zealand and we have the same problem here, everyone is in a race to the bottom. Letâs do it better for the customer and for our own pride
Unfortunately our global economy has been suffering so long that cutting corners is the only way some tradesmen can keep their heads above water.
100% agree Tom, well said đ
Really enjoying these "Nagy Knows" / "Top Tom Tips" / "Nagy Knowledge" videos. Any chance you could get them in a playlist as I'm not sure if I've missed any. So hard as someone who has recently passed their 18th edition to be able to retain all the information, but having someone talk through real world examples of where the regs come to life really helps. So, thanks!
Thought the regs where non statutory and are there just as a guide
So, why don't the regulations spell it out? "Wherever practical, cable shall not be buried in plaster without additional mechanical protection conforming to BS whatever". If the regulations don't spell it out, they are sh!t.
I always fit over size oval pipe no matter what.And it's easier if any alterations needs doing as you can pull the cable out and push a new cable down. great video đ
Another great video has always Thomas đ
Not arguing that it shouldn't be done well, but the regs argument doesn't seem that convincing -
"...Withstand safely the stresses and environmental conditions...." in a normal domestic situation, how does a direct-buried cable in a wall not meet this requirement? What stresses and environmental conditions in a domestic situation does capping/conduit protect against ? You have two layers of PVC insulation to guard against any water-based issue. Probably the most plausible risk is a nail going through it, but if you accept that as a realistic situation, should you not be fitting (earthed) metal capping, as a nail would easily go through plastic?
Wondering what danger or fault situations have people seen with an un-capped/enclosed cable chased into a wall , which would have been prevented by capping/conduit?
You're considering the presence of capping solely as a safety measure to the end user. I've always considered capping as the protective measure for cable against the plasterers trowel and the long term erosion caused by plaster itself.
I agree, I think it should as good workmanship have capping, but those regs I would say make reference to not putting twin and earth outdoors or buried underground. Capping is there to protect the cables when plastering... I have seen plasterers rip capping off as the plaster does not stick to it very well.. I agree if you were that worried you would put it with metal earthed conduit or capping, or run SWA in walls..
Interesting in other countries they dont have prescribed zones as they argue, why bother you have an RCD, There must have been multiple failings for something to have happened as all new wiring should be RCD protected. We dont fit capping or any other kind or protection in stud walls.. Again I am not saying its not the correct thing to do but the regs are so wooley I would be surprised if any sparks would get convicted on that basis as a decent defence barrister would just shred that regulation to bits..
Would love to raise the bar on every job but we all know most domestic installations people just want it to work and as cheap as possible. If its the option between a split load board or keep the old rewireable board with no RCD protection because they cant afford a full RCBO board.. What is better?
Does plaster contain any ingredients that may breakdown the cable sheathing?
Totally agree. Conduit isn't stopping my hammer and nail!?! If a quote was more because it had conduit, I'd go for the other guys
@@johnadams1976 thats not the point of the capping, it is there purely to stop the plasterer damaging the cable when filling in the chases, putting cables in zones and additional RCD protection is put in place to stop you getting injured by hammering a nail. It should be fitted as standard..
Capping is only used to protect the cable from the plasterers trowel, installing in conduit de-rates the cable. I personally have always used plastic capping in void properties. In occupied properties definitely not. Also you have to be careful how deep your cutting chases, you could actually make the wall unstable.
Very valid point about how deep your chases are!
Especially flats.. you can actually weaken the walls to the point of severe collapse when itâs poured concrete etc..
âVertical chases should be no deeper than one third of the wall thickness - with standard 100mm bricks and blocks, that going to be 33mm, which is quite deep anyway - thatâs not allowing for any plaster coating which could be 10mm so the maximum depth then works out at 36mm from the front face of the plaster.â
i like this pov. toms after 5 socket drops per room plus two way and inermediate switches in the living rm!! i think that metabo chaser has taken over his mind like the borg
@@CraigJFW actually did a rewire like that for someone once. Even the kids bedrooms had two way switches by the beds, 5 double sockets, 6 downlights, and a double RJ45 in each room, they had four kids! đ
Unless the lack of capping was a contributory factor to an incident it shouldn't be a factor in any legal action - any half-decent defence should make that point.
The prosecution will destroy you in it and will make the money grab argument and the dead granny argument and no matter how good ur defence is ur snookered
Yeah I think you could argue that the cable was damaged by the plasterer, now would capping have stopped that.. Probably, but Ive seen plasters rip capping off cause the plaster wont stick to it as easy of there is no guarantee a bit of plastic will protect the cable. I think you could make a good defence that it was the plasters shoddy workmanship and him that caused the fault.. Again I always fit capping and think you should, but I dont think it would be as clear cut in a court.. I think any defence barrister would simply say where does it say in the regs that capping is required when burying cable in walls? Its not in there, case closed... Should it be in there, yeah probably... But its not specifically stated, its another example of the regs book being wishy washy and open to interpretation..
@@Sierraomega1991 Spoken by someone who clearly knows nothing about the law or legal process. It really is hilarious when non-lawyers try to talk authoritatively about law. Causation is a critical part of any tortious or contractual claim and the burden of proof is on the claimant. If the lack of capping did not cause the injury, it is irrelevant to the matter of liability. It really isn't that difficult to understand.
I agree. At 10:15 when he was acting like there wasn't an answer... There's no regs that say you need it. It's not the reason this person died. If someone was to bang a screw in it the. Plastic cappings not gonna do anything. And also affordability in my opinion is also a good reason. This persons electrics wasn't safe and they could only just afford a rewire without capping.
Mike makes the correct point that we all engage representation for ourselves in court and issues are rarely ever clear cut.
Nice one Tom, a bit related but would circular tubing be OK/adhere with Regs? - just to make pulling/replacing cable years after install.đđ
Very informative, interesting debate & understanding principles and excellent video. đ
Loving the Content Tom :)
Just from my laymans point of view: electrical cabling is already covered by plastic.. what additional protection is the additional layer of plastic going to help with? How about save the extra work for the customer and put it in to the safety that the RCBOs provide.
Naturally fit metal capping if somewhere in the house there is actual chance for the wires getting under stress.
In Northern Ireland 20mm conduit used 98% of the time on every job. Oval is useless as can't get much down them and if told someone you were using capping, they'd laugh you off the site. Also when doing upstairs you can rewire or add to cabling from attic.
Well said, I wish I could share some of the stuff I was looking a few days ago!
Had to catch up before you dropped the next Monday episode. đ
6:33 "Dicky heart, she pops her clogs, the old duffer!" love it.....
Couldnât agree more, if it looks neat itâs normally wriht. Iâm currently rewriting a property that was retired by a builder in 2000. Capping was the least of the customers worries in this case!
Good points - but isnât sheath mechanical protection on T&E? Also is a plastic capping going to stop a screw, drill or nail gun?
The only way to prevent this is to pipe It up in earthed galvanised galv. đ€·đŒ How far do you go?
I see you not having a defence if you placed singles directly into the wall, but not with a T&EâŠ.
I had an instance where a plasterer ripped all of mine out after fitting it on a rewire years agoâŠ
Took me a minute to get ya were talking about the conduit piping we have here in the states. Sort of glad to have the wires in a metal(aluminum/aluminium) pipe that causes it to ground out until the breaker trips. Also helps give it a protective layer against rodents such as squirrels and mice chewing up the wires and causing a mess out this way too.
Great info Tom , one to put in the note books , #Learning âĄïžđ
What's the opinion of cables clipped to walls with no capping behind dot and dab plasterboard.
Who is an electrician and has seen problems, especially when fitting new RCD boards, and you find a fault, you eventually find the fault and its a nail to hold in the capping that has clipped the cable? I agree though that it should be fitted, I really like fitting pvc flexicon glanded into the back box, will make any future rewire a breeze as the cables can be pulled up and down..
I agree with you, but glanding into a galv back box seems a bit excessive (though carry on if it makes you happy). A quicker alternative is to simply push some oval tubing through the box knockout so it just enters the box - the tube acts as a grommit, protecting the cable from the metal edge, and it allows for ease of rewiring, as you mention.
Might as well use singles then, like they do on the continent.
@@markrainford1219 but then you'll have to tube in the floor voids also, whereas using T&E means you don't have to.
@@johnhoward2104 Exactly.
@@johnhoward2104 I haven't done many if any identical like for like rewires
"An Old Duffer" - are you flirting with me again Thomas? đ
in Malta we all still pass all cables through conduit...and it makes sense if you want to pull another cable on a future date
For me it's all about protecting the cables during installation as I don't think capping offers any protection forward from that point.
We have a company rule, capping used when in contact with direct plaster, like chases but anything else, dot and dab where sharp tools won't be used during installation I don't feel it is necessary
Much prefer metal capping. Canât see the point in plastic. Great video đđ
Whats the point in metal capping?
BAck in 1999-2000 when I was on work experience with a local spark, we always used capping on a new install and/or rewire as and when it was practical to do so. As for mechanical protection it isn;t going to stop DIY Bob coming along to put a shelf on the wall and drilling into it (I know, I've done it myself many years ago lol and so has my stepdad) However, it will protect it from the plasterer and their trowl.
Nice video Tom. I didnât notice any jump cuts there was this all in one take?
I agree 100% on the professional approach youâve outlined. I think as another poster said you could argue that caping wonât stop a nail or drill so I think you could easily defend against that comment from a barrister but you would be arguing from a weak position since someoneâs already been injured.
To me though the simple fact to the owner would be if this cable needs replacing for any reason I donât have to chisel out your nicely plastered walls so few quid more for less disruption later.
I disagree on the use of capping, unless it's specifically required in a location in BS7671.
Capping constantly cuts wires where the wire exits the capping, I used it all the time at the start, but realised that they will cause more issues than they prevent. They also restrict heat, you need 50% space free within capping for it to not be derate the CCC due to the fact that plastic prevents the loss of heat much more than plaster, you know this, but I haven't seen you account for that in your builds.
Btw I'm pretty sure you've seen examples of nails through galvanized steel capping... in fact, that's how many of the older guys fit it to the wall... by nailing it in... So how is plastic capping going to help against nails and screws when even galvanized steel can't?
Maybe I just think you shouldn't be throwing that term around... Mediocre electrician.... A mediocre electrician is one who likely installs the cheapest shit around but meets the guidelines, a great electrician installs the best of what they client needs, makes suggestions to futureproof their home or business, never installs a dual RCD board, and makes sure their wiring and install is perfect, and obviously meets BS7671 and often exceeding the requirements at every stage.
I personally take images of all the wiring (so they can retrospectively understand their wiring), and give those to customers with their EIC + EICR, (they get both with a board change let alone a rewire) and spend time carefully explaining to customers what prescribed zones are, and how they can use that method to determine where is safe and where is not to fit pictures, tv's etc. I've also just bought an IR camera which cost me an arm and a leg to look for hot spots in the wiring.
It's not a requirement, it looks better, (maybe if your wiring looks like shit) but it's actually worse for the home in the long run... Once Betty crocker has changed her sockets a couple of times, if you've poked your conduit through the back box you will be well through the insulation where the T&E meets the conduit.
It's also worth noting that you're bringing the cables closer to the surface by adding capping, or taking even more wall out for its installation, I'm sure betty crocker would like to keep the extra half centimetre in the wall you'd need to remove to install the capping.
I wanted to see your motives to install it, I approached the vid with an open mind, but you ignored any negatives associated to installing it, and there are issues.
The other thing is Tom, are bad electricians spending their time watching and learning from others on YT?
what about the use of conduit instead of capping like in most of the EU. There is counduits with wire all ready inside and that speeds up the whole job. Do you have any expirience with this type of fixing or is it something you might want to have a look at in the future.
agreed it looks much better but as far as regs go your argument for it being legal seems a bit off. I've been called to faults where metal capping has been penetrated with a tiny picture nail leaving a N-E fault. To reveal the cable in the wall was a right nightmare. I don't think capping offers any protection whatsoever it just looks better. Sorry can't see a barrister arguing it should be installed because it looks better.
Yeah - how about actually use the electrical system protection devices such as RCBOs instead of making the customer pay for capping which does not much more than add an extra layer of plastic for wires you could've probably already bought with thicker insulation that outperforms typical capping...
Controversial Tom but its your opinion and I respect that.
Capping offers no protection at all for nails or drill bits, its not earthed and you'll never end up in a court for not fitting it.
I always use capping as it makes the install so much neater with a couple of pieces of all round band rather than clipping cables direct.
You never know what goes on onsite between first and second fix so offering just that extra piece of protection is always a must for me.
Are you not allowed to run surface-mounted wiring in GB?
The new wiring is insulation tested, should read 500M at 500v how will anyone get shock? the metal and plastic capping offers very little mechanical protection , I agree better to install as gives some protection against other tradesmen damaging the cables.
This is why RCD protection is used in case cables are damaged by occupants
Thomas likes metal capping, some kitchen fitter comes in after, sticks a screw through the capping and live conductor... Remember the capping is not earthed, old Betty washes the wall, gets a shock.... Mr Nagy was your choice to fit metal capping not earthed a contributing factor? You could rattle off all those same regs and argue it would be case closed..
@@steve11211 Very good point, its also an absolute ball ache repairing cables that are behind cappings that have been damaged by nails or drill bits. Repairing an upcapped cable is much easier.
Save the customer the work of adding an extra layer of insulation for cabling which you could've probably bough with thicker insulation from the get-go and instead fit the goddamn RCBOs which are the actual protection devices.
@AL Hughes got to disagree , much easier to repair with capping installed
Cable drops in plastic conduiit of any shape, round or oval, are afforded no extra mechanical or electrical protection, but look professional. The obvious very good reason for conduit installation is to provide, in the event of any subsequent damage to the cables from for example careless picture hanging, a possible way to rewire wire the drop without decorative damage. I notice in some of your videos that the enclosed plastic conduit drops you install stop some inches short of the back boxes. These installations therefore provide no extra mechanical or electrical protection neither can any damaged drop be easily replaced without decorative damage?
Does it really increase time?? Iâve done both,, if the tand e curls I spend more time smoothing the rendrer trying to hide what might look rough,, personally, 20 flex con, yes, in a chase , but easily adapted,, capping has protection but realistically canât be utilised without difficulty,, IMO
A tip for installing boxes ... I make a wooden template which just fits the box (it prevents the box from getting full of plaster) ... drill 2 holes and use the screw holes to secure the template ... if you want the box slightly deeper ... you fit a spacer ... then you take long strips of wood or aluminum line the screws up with the laser level and secure to the wall ... you patch in all the boxes and remove the wood support and template ... you can then secure the box with a screw if feel it requires additional pull strength.
My preference is to fit oval conduit in my chases. I also put the tube into the box. I donât know why people leave the tube short and put a grommet in?
Old skool was steel capping and conduit...how long before full circle? Also conduit means can change a cable if damaged...not worth the time? Is when plaster damaged cable and only showed on test after finish :)
"Mechanical Protection" hm... that plastic conduit isn't going to save Betty Crocker's nephew when he nails the ducks to the wall... but the RCD might.
Capping should then be installed directly into back boxes using the information you provided, whats your opinion if the cable was chased into the wall at a set depth?
I'm interested to know... my perception is that oval tube is great for making it easy to make changes to the wiring in the future, but only metal channel will actually provide a level of protection from things like drill bits coming through the wall, suggesting that the best solution would be to use both products - is this right?
Capping ensures the cables are in the chases neatly and prevents any damage when the wall is being finished or plastering. As for mechanical protection both plastic and metal offer none whatsoever they are so thin. If your in a situation where fitting capping is not possible such as a wall with very thin depth or just a small chase its not worth it
Sami Khamis - I'd say & know installed conduct rather than capping is more professional thinking. You've cut the chase anyhow but you don't need to cut as much out so save time & making good is much quicker...... capping is a stop gap measure, nice to see some even pvc conduct install work glued & fixed with male or female end points making pulling through the cable so simple.
However reference method C Clipped direct? how does this play out?
Same problem in Gas Industry you could do everything to regs and to the letter, but gas safe and courts would still find something you " should have done" plus lots of clients want Rolls Royce Jobs for Mini money. Such a Vicious circle and why corners get cut.
Top channel and great content âđ»
There is a great podcast called âCausalityâ that is basically all about this kind of stuff, little tiny details can and do add up to massive problems. Iâm not too familiar with the UK but it seems like fitting nail plates in key areas the same way sparks in America do would be good cheap insurance if not for legal reasons, just to reduce the cost of a callback. Us yanks are far more likely to go crazy throwing nails through our paper and toothpick walls though! Love the whiteboard chats Tom!
Well I am from the other side of the pond and yes our construction techniques are different but when it comes down to it you got to protect your product AKA The wire and if you are a plumber the pipe capping nail plates hardened sleeves whatever it takes when your names involved you don't want that call you up the good work
I disagree with having to install capping or that if you don't you're a mediocre spark. Capping does not provide mechanical protection in any way. I believe it's was an old wife's tail that metal capping would stop people from putting nails through cables which it doesn't and the way I see it, in today's world is it is there to prevent plasterers from nicking/hitting a cable with their trowel. It's not there to protect the cables from normal operation. The chases you did on the last job with the metabo are neat and small, any competent plaster should be able to put a bonding coat in without striking a cable. And if we really want to play by the blue book, you shouldn't be energising cables that are still to be plastered because there is more chance of wet plaster being applied round live sockets causing death than betty crocker washing a wall with a wet sponge in my opinion. Great content as usual, keep it up!
In US, twin and earth cannot be installed direct in concrete, block, or brick but must have conduit or capping before plaster done. Same in Jamaica.
As a tradesperson, your work IS your reputation. Cheers Tom, from Arizona USA
Ok tom, fair enough, can you explain to me why no new build has capping?? (At least in my area)
I can see your point of court case, but do you think so many new houses are getting away with it just because there wasnât such a case yet?
Thomas Malory Nagy - whenever I see you post a video, my bell goes ding-a-ling-a-ling.
I use oval for speed and neatness. I am on the understanding that the plaster can affect the insulation? Deterioration over time?
Clipping direct if one chooses to do so, would be done in prescribed zones so compliant đ€·ââïž
Agree with you on all points
I do wonder with plastic capping rather than metal with mechanical protection as its quite thin and easily damaged
Mr Nagy, Thank you for advertising our company. Mrs Crocker is very good customer. She has lot of work from us, we do electric, gas, tiling, plumbing, plastering and she is very happy. You do not need to concern with her falling down stairs - we fitted S&K stair lift 3000âą for her last week, she now very good on the stairs. We will in future use cap you mentione when doing electricity work - I have purchase baseball caps for my employee to wear when doing electricity - they will wear this instead of cowboy hat - we save these for gas works.
13 seconds in Tom and personally I think conduit/pipe is better over capping. The cable is safer, if you use galv you can easily find it, and rewiring is a doddle with conduit/pipe.
It is better, but much more work
Yup, the Barrister is going to ask "will plastic capping withstand a nail for hanging a picture - if not, why didn't you use metal?"
@@JezCunningham I think the legal arguments are a bit far fetched to be honest, no ones ever been in court for this
@@londontrada I don't know mate, there are thousands of cases accross the uk every day most no one ever knows about. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Jesus companies have been in court because employees have dumb and nor followed rules and its the companies fault.
@@stuartcraigon2003 No, If someone had been prosecuted for using plastic capping it would cause a change in the industry. The regs are not even a statuary document.
Nope. BS7671 lists cables embedded direct in masonry without added mechanical protection as a legitimate installation method. You'll find it in table 4A2, on P389, number 57.
All capping does is protect cables from the plasterer's trowel during plastering. Necessary when solid wet plastering was common, as the trowel was likely to come into contact with the cable otherwise. It's not really needed now in the dot-n-dab age, or when chased into existing plaster, as the odds of the trowel hitting the cables is low. My plasterer has specifically asked me to omit it.
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Well done, Sir. Shame Mr Nagy didn't bother to make sure he actually knew what he was talking about before spouting rubbish on CZcams. I always liked his videos, but I'm unsubscribed now. He's far too pretentious for me these days.
Fit an actual electrical system protection device and don't make customer pay for what is very expensive additional insulation on perfectly good electrical cabling...
Iâm from the US and have no idea what the purpose of this is, do you run your wires on the outside of walls?
Been in the high court due to a health and safety accident believe me you never ever want to be in that situation the company had done nothing wrong but still an awful thing to go through it was lucky the company followed all health and safety training and had all proper procedures in place it would have ended badly if they hadn't
It's bad enough that the company gets that kind of publicity, whether or not they're vindicated isn't going to matter to a lot of potential customers.
Your right about the regs, there was a case of a guy, came home pissed, put the landing light on, bulb blew, he decided it was a good idea to stand on a chair, hanging over the stairs, in the dark, and change the bulb, he fell, and sued the council and won, because some switched on lawyer found a reg that the light position didn't comply with the regs, I think he got around ÂŁ100k. It happened in flint North Wales.
And I recently used this example with a customer, who wanted me to fit a light over the stairs where he couldn't reach, I refused to do it, he understood after reading the story.
I remember being told many many years ago that capping offered protection from chemical dryers used in some plaster....
My sparky didn't do it / no point but I have lime render and stone walls so it is a pain! ... I went around and capped it myself as this helped with my lime rendering being applied...
If betty's sponging the wall down and there's metal capping, wont she still get a belt?
I think your whole legal argument could be argued against pretty easy. I install cables to their required zones. If somebody was to stick a pin in the wall to hang a picture then it would be their fault. Capping wouldnt do shit to protect the cable anyway.
I do fit capping, but for no reason due to BS7671 as my interpretation of it is that you don't need capping.
I fit capping because of your first points - its neat and tidy and leaves an impression. I also fit capping for plasteres.
Why do us sparkies in N. Ireland not use capping but only conduit ? Seems a lot easier.
I had no choice but to run a ring main, feed for upstairs lights and a radial for boiler in loft in an inside corner though a bathroom within 150mm of from floor to ceiling which is perfectly in zone, I got back to second fix today and soon as I turn the power on, ALL 3 CIRCUITS was tripping the RCBO found not 1 but 2 screws for a vanity unit gone straight through galvanised capping....
Tomas, you are right, I am an electrician in Norway and here the cable that you use for installations is illegal according to the law and rules to be used without a channel, pipes because the cable does not have double insulation to grounding. Here it is a cable type PR 2x2.5 +2.5 we can use this cable in open installations where inspection is possible. For installations that are covered and hidden, a double-insulated cable or a corrector tube with conductors is always used, here are examples of PFXP cables or TECON
Its an interesting subject but I doubt not having capping installed would win a court case provided everything was done correctly, the capping thing is open to interpretation it's an engineering judgement situation.
In your example old Betty carking it because a cable was damaged and she washed the wall the 2 people at fault would be the plasterer and the sparks the plasterer for damaging the cable and not alerting anyone and the spark for not carrying out proper testing of the installation because that damage capping or not would show up when you do you tests.
Would it have been damaged if capping was present, probably but that still doesn't negate the fact that the tests weren't properly carried out so I doubt it would hold much weight.
The other arguement would be an external factor the old nail through a cable that we've all seen in this scenario capping wouldn't have prevented the damage but if presented with that the counter to it would be cables installed in the correct zones and RCD protection if they are done as per the regs then the capping argument would be null and void since the whole point of cable zones and RCD protection is to stop people putting nails through cables and the stop them being fried if they still do
Some really posh jobs in the old days had us use metal conduit with a bend into the joist run, these would be the wealthy house on Bishops avenue. But you had to enamel paint any scratches on the pipe or rush could show through
The main point is... Document, for the customer, exactly what you have done and why. Always CYA.
Best house I ever owned had all the cables chased in with steel conduit. Rewiring was so easy.
Does anyone know if plaster or render can dissolve the insulation of cables?
always taught keep away from cement, as it overtime erodes the pvc
There are rumours saying that plaster containing lime can damage some types of PVC cables. Where i am from they use PVC cables (NYY) directly burried in walls. Paster always made with lime and i have not seen any cable damaged by plaster. Even 60 years old aluminium cables are still in service.
My property has metal stud frame walls, the cables just hang loose inside (UK property, 14 years old). I'm sure that isn't adequate protection - and the metal frame isn't earthed either. Also where the cables are unprotected in the loft (in both this and a previous property) I found at least one cable had been gashed to the copper, presumably by whoever was cutting the loft insulation. UK new builds... not great!
I always use ovel conduit, if a damaged cable needs replacing, it's alot easier to pull another through, with capping, it's not so easy, and cable plastered in the wall is a bodge, and looks shit, in my opinion, anyway.
My understanding of pvc capping and conduit from 20 years ago was to prevent plaster, insulation hitting against the PVC of the twin and earth because the fear of a reaction between the building materials and the pvc. But thatâs now been proven no reaction takes place so itâs all good.
When we had building work done we chose on price, we learnt from our lessons and when we had all windows and doors replaced we went with reputation and not price, made no difference, regret not using our original builder..
I can see the point your making, it dose make you look more professional, but installing plastic capping or oval conduit. Dose not provide much much protection, we have all been there installing practice capping and it cracks or brakes. Would you go back to installing earthed metal conduit ?
much appreciated