The Future of Gen 9 OU ft. Finchinator
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- čas přidán 23. 05. 2024
- Check out Finchinator on Twitter! / finchinator2
I offer one-on-one tutoring sessions to help you improve your team-building and/or battling skills! Sign up here: forms.gle/24CVdqtBZoTgRyJd8
0:00 Intro
0:36 Does the OU Council Love Stall?
5:15 Why Has Gen 9 Had So Many Bans?
10:47 What is a Healthy Metagame and Will We Reach it?
If you want to talk with me, get your teams rated, or you want a replay reviewed, you can contact me on Smogon (username Pinkacross), on Discord (tag: "pinkacross"), or by my gmail beigelordpkmn@gmail.com. You can also message me if you see me online on Pokemon Showdown, I'm always either on my Pinkacross account or Pinkacross Alt.
Credits to Nintendo for the music and original designs of the Pokemon present in the video.
One big thing I want to say, when Finch said he answers random players' questions at the end of the video, he wasn't lying, speaking from experience. I DMed him on Twitter around the time of the Shed Tail era to ask about complex bans and why they weren't being utilized because I wanted to become better at helping shape a meta I'm passionate about, and he was incredibly kind and helpful the whole time, never looking down on or being sarcastic to me, just explaining in a way that was easy to understand. Great guy
It's garchover
It may be over for Garchomp but there's still hope for the tier. :]
It may be garchover, but for another ground type with a 4x ice weakness, it's not landover
IT IS NEVER GARCHOVER. NEVER GIVE UP. HE IS OUR GARCHAMPION
@@blahtest HE WILL BEAT THE WASHED ALLIGATIONS
It's Gaback
I just looked at Hoopa-Unbound's BST and moveset I can confirm that stall would not be happy to see that. Really great point, and a very good illustration as to why taking away some of the more polarising elements of a metagame does not just lead to stall getting out of control.
I think it's very natural for people to think that if you ban the very things that stall is designed to counteract, the inevitable outcome will be that stall becomes unbeatable. While it makes sense, as you point out the really problematic mons ALSO limit the viability of other, slower offensive mons at the teambuilding stage, and once they gone we end up with a completely different playing field in which (paradoxically) stall suddenly has more answers rather than less.
Very nicely put! :D
…which is why RU just banned Hoopa-Unbound (that, and the lack of Pokemon down here that can actually switch in to Psychic/Dark/Fighting coverage off of those attacking stats).
A good example of this was the late isle of armor meta game, where the absurd power of urshifu single strike and the discovery of Wish port clef created a dreadful meta game
actually excellent explaination of why removing sweepers and breakers allows balance to answer stall better.
Ah yes the goatest of tiering goats and the goatest of goated builders. Didn't expect this but was cool to hear finch talk about the metagame and be hopeful about it. I look forward to seeing the tier progress towards a more balanced state 🙏
Glad you enjoyed the video! :D
I loved listening to this talk.
As a long-time, casual player exclusively playing Random Battles and PU/ZU since gen 6, I simply don't have the competence to judge OU tiering actions (or any at all).
I just find a lot of beauty in the basic concept of the tiering by usage instead of winrate and have fun reading and theorizing about the suspects tests and bans in all the tiers. It's a mini-Christmas seeing all the usage stats and tier shifts at the beginning of a months.
Now, from what I understand, OU tiering actions are a lot more complex than other tiers, as other metas naturally shift every months just by Mons dropping down. OU instead has to self-regulate and builds the backbone of the all tiers, influencing them in a beautiful butterfly effect.
And I just to say thank you to Finch for the work he does and you for providing a deeper look into this subject. I might not be that competent in the subject but from what I read on the OU tiering posts before, I can clearly see that the council is thoughtful and invested in the health of OU.
I'm so glad you enjoyed the video! Thank you for sharing your thoughts, this was very fun to read!
In a high chaos meta, the value of information goes up. I actually believe that my skill has improved a lot in Gen 9 because I have learned to scout better. Lots of mons with wide coverage, random tera blasts, baiting tera itself. I have definitely learned to love the "chaos."
Nicely put! Certainly the chaos of gen 9 has increased the skill cap in some areas.
Same experience here tbh
I predict Avalugg will be the new future in the OU meta as it luggs out of NU
Yes, I agree. It's a miracle it hasn't taken over OU already.
An honest wall like Avalugg could have never found employment in an OU tier ruled by the ruthless Tuskmasker, the evil KinGOOBit, and the miserly JoldenJoe.
@@waniel2962 Nah bro, Avalugg needs a ban
The „let the chaos be there“ crowd doesn’t necessarily get bigger, the other people just stop playing the tier (at least that is the case for me)
Haha I've felt close to that point myself at times
Two OU goats discussing my favorite tier 🙏
I think Finch was more talking about chien pao but saying roaring moon overly fragile is CRAZY LOL
Also I hope people don’t actually think the OU council is actually pro stall 😭 I always just joke about that kinda thing when offensive threats get banned saying stuff like “Big Stall wins again”
No, a ton of people legitimately do believe the OU council loves stall. Especially newer players.
@@Winterbubcorrect - Moon has good special bulk at least.
@@pinkacross2042 I used to play OU while working in a hospital to kill time but with 400+ turns stall games, my patients would die if I won’t forfeit
Thats a lot of testosterone for one video
Lots of OU bans used to irk me (as a pretty much casual player), because part of the appeal of the tiering system was how it promised every Pokémon could be viable, somewhere. It made me sad whenever a cool mon was banned from OU, that couldn't cut it in Ubers.
That's why I'm so grateful for the existence of UUbers. A little bit of extra space provided for the Pokémon that got squeezed out of the standard tiers.
UUbers is a blast, yea!
@AdamEvreuklovic I like playing UUbers and I think Palafin is very cool.
"Solve the problem." For me, I had a problem, and UUbers solved it. You have a different problem. Here's hoping it gets solved in due time!
That was a pretty good intro
I've played it gen 9 OU, been on the cusp of top 500 (just barely failed to reach it). Tried to go for reqs once, didn't quite make it but had a good run. I've decided that I don't like the tier all that much. This is not the fault of the council at all though, it's moreso a result of gamefreak's game design, It's a shame but oh well, I've been enjoying NU lately.
This Gen has made me realize that you don't have to enjoy current Gen ou. There's so many other metagames, and they're all there for a reason. Maybe initially it was because everyone wanted to see their favorite Pokémon be viable, but I think people have come to terms that it won't always happen. Now I see tiers as a way for everyone to have a metagame they enjoy.
@AdamEvreuklovic notice how I didn't say gamefreak was at fault? I simply said it's a result of their game design.
I suggest you stop looking for narratives that aren't there. You could do so much with the time you'll save, follow some typing lessons, maybe even lay down the booze... You could even spam some HO on the ladder!
@AdamEvreuklovic instead of arguing meaningless specifics I'll just point you to the fact that many longtime and new players simply don't enjoy the gameplay gen 9 has introduced. If a game is made for enjoyment, can it really be called evolution if people's enjoyment has gone down?
great video, good point about how centralized threats make stall more viable because there are less off-meta threats to account for in teambuilding
Big Stall is pleased with this video
The stall cord 💀
On the side of how banning mons leads to better team building, look at vgc. When more mons are introduced, there is usually less variety in the pokemon. Right now can be seen as an exception with quite a wide variety in usable mons/teamstyles, but even now when adding an offensive fairy type to a team, I have to ask, "Does this pokemon do anything better than flutter mane?" Or if looking at Intimidate mons asking, "Does this mon do anything better than incineroar?"
I remember using Overquil in Reg E because it was a dark type intimidate mon not weak to Fairy that acted as a good glue mon for my team. Now there is no point to use Overquil because Incineroar does everything it can but better.
Also, I never want to see Urshifu+Tornadus ever again after the 6 month strangle hold it had this generation.
I'm glad to see some of these points have parallels in VGC! Very interesting, thank you for commenting!
this is why i strongly advocate for more people to play doubles ou! the controlled power level and 6v6 format allows for more diverse teams, where you are allowed to have defensive switchins and long term strategy, rather than banking on two turns going just right for you.
I like how the idea of metagame balance is approached. Every team style being not only usable, but viable is a great goal. However, i think it's important to note that no matter how much action is taken, almost no meta will see every style be equal. Each generation has its own identity for this reason. Gen 8 as you said is very well balanced, but people still complain that it's slow because it leans into that balance/bo side. Meanwhile gen 7 could be seen as more offensive due to both z moves and megas. Then, on the other end there's gen 2, which is considerably bulkier, but not the stall fest people say it is.
My point is, gen 9 may always be defined by powerful sweepers, and tera making teambuilding a million times harder. Im not saying that the meta is in a balanced state, but i do think a gens overall feel is important to consider.
With that said, I've found myself playing past generations and finding a new love for the older titles as I explore the defining aspects of those metas. Gen 9 has helped me learn that there's more to enjoy than current gen ou, and not every metagame will be for everyone.
I guess the video really got me thinking, I really enjoyed it, and I hope you collab with Finch more often!
Wonderful and insightful comment, thanks for leaving this! :]
Sounds like it's time to bring out our friend Mr. Craw to Knock Off some heads in OU.
I hope it's viable but I doubt it very much
Oh this is very cool. Great that Finch is here.
Glad you liked it! :D
Hello everyone, today im going to be talking about the state of gen 9 OU and the future of gen 9 OU tiering.
This was awesome!
Glad you liked it! :D
Hi pinkacross, been loving the channel.
Is there any chance I could get that SD Gliscor team you were using in those replays? Looks like a team I’d enjoy using!
I will definitely publicly release it in the future! As of right now I don't want the exact sets revealed as I have friends wishing to use this team in tournaments but I'll definitely make it available soon. If you want you can also probably copy it quite effectively from the videos.
@@pinkacross2042 thanks! Looking forward to more vids :)
Power creep is crazy
-Finchinator 2024
When Pinkacross says that Mr. Finch is a veteran, I simply can't stop imagining him as a War Veteran like LT Surge
Nice video as always, question, could you link the Pokepaste for the second team used in this video?
Glad you enjoyed the video! :D That pokepaste is in the description of my previous video, the latest installment of "fixing my viewer's teams"
@@pinkacross2042 thank you!
yooooo
This was a lot of fun, hopefully we can chat again sometime!
this was a good video thank you
Not so much a direct response to the topic in the video but would you have any advice for someone who struggles to team build past more than one style of team. I’ve recently been trying to dive a little further into building teams but I keep on getting foxholed into grassy terrain offense because the core members that I normally add out of habit (Primarina, Raging Bolt, King ambit) benefit so much from terrain that I end up falling back on that particular style as a crutch. Any advice for how to better understand team synergy to help people get out of this particular situation? (Ps that SD gliscor team is disgusting and I will absolutely be using that when the pokepaste comes out)
I would recommend trying to build Hyper Offense. That's a great way to break habits because building HO is EXTREMELY easy. Just add Glimmora, slap on some sweepers, and you've got a team that can get 1800s at least. This may help break up the habit a bit. After you've built and tested a few HO teams, try hazard stack. This is another good build because it has very strict parameters: spike setter, SR setter, spinblocker, knock user, and 2 support slots. Other playstyles like Rain and Sun also have very similarly strict formats. Try some of these, and then you'll find branching out to non-rillaboom offense and non-rillaboom balance easier!
@NorbertnahumPlatzer If you want to be in the tournament scene in pokemon, you absolutely need to be proficient with many different playstyles. If you're just on ladder, you can just pick a playstyle that fits you-- but generally branching out will make you a better player. Certain playstyles are more difficult in different areas and will teach you valuable lessons that you can carry back to your favorite playstyle.
@NorbertnahumPlatzer I'm not a fan of this method. Building an entire team of randomly selected pokemon and seeing which one works best is not a good way to identify roles and find successful pokemon.
@NorbertnahumPlatzer By proficient I mean you can play it well. The best tour players can bring any plastyle at any time (HO, stall, balance, offense, etc.) making them more difficult to prepare for. If you consistently use one style, this is a significant disadvantage in the tournament scene that can be exploited, particularly if the style is HO or stall.
@NorbertnahumPlatzer Yes I agree with this analysis, swapping out pokemon of a similar role (on a team that supports this) and seeing which one performs best is certainly a valid strategy in teambuilding.
can you drop the link to the team you were using at 5:50 ? it looks fun and i need to get back into ou lmaooo
The pokepaste will be released soon! At the moment I have friends using it in tournaments that would prefer the team not be public but it will certainly be posted in the description of a video soon!
You could also probably do a pretty solid job of copying it from the games in this video if you desire.
Hey can u drop the teams used in the video please ... ?
You can find the pokepastes in my previous video in the "fixing my viewer's teams" series!
we want car vlog back!
...?
@@pinkacross2042 Finch used to do some car vlogs back in the days, discussing a bunch of stuff. They were cool.
@@A_Bird23 Interesting, thanks for letting me know!
gen 9 ou made me realize ill never win a tourney to get my custom avatar so ive been loving the lower tiers this gen
Do you have the paste for the Garg+Volc team?
At the moment I'm keeping it under wraps for some friends in tours but I will release the pokepaste soon! :]
@@pinkacross2042 Are you able to post it now? I tried recreating it the best I could but the EVs and tera types are most likely different.
@@Wonderlvnd It will be posted either in my next video or the one after! :]
@@pinkacross2042 Ah ok, cool. I really like your balanced boots/hstack builds, so hopefully we can get some more in the future 🙂.
@@Wonderlvnd Absolutely! I consider hstack the top playstyle right now so I'll be making many more! :]
so like... gen 2 is really bulky, like regardless of team type/comp it's going to be a bulkier slower match compared to some other gens.
Is there something wrong with gen9 leaning toward hyper offense? I understand that makes things more unpredictable, but I guess the fact you can't "check" or "counter" all the threats greater incentivizes the player to execute their own gameplan as fast as possible no?
Can someone explain the problem to me?
The general issue with HO being the top meta force is that hyper offense is very matchup-based. It has a very flow-charted way of playing that allows much worse to beat much better players, and people to lose or win regardless of how well they played. Oftentimes, who played better or had a better gameplan will be overshadowed by who had the sweeper that matchups up best.
eloquent and concise, two of the best communicators in the community 💯
Aww thanks! :D
The funny thing is casuals complain about all offensive mon bans saying that it's all stall, but when those mons are around is when stall is most common because it forces stall as a countermeasure to deal with a single mon
This is gen 5 all over again
I wasn't around for gen 5, did it feel similar to 9?
You know, I genuinely think that Raging Bolt is genuinely better gambit because its fatter and doesn’t care about being burnt at all and it has the same variance as gambit. Raging Bolt I’m hoping gets the boot because of how hard it is to deal with this goober.
On another topic, the fact that the possibility of Lugia being tested into OU is being as discussed and contested as Darkrai was during teal mask is kind of wild. And honestly I think it could be an interesting test since there is a chance it would be fine down here even if it ends up being obnoxious like we know it will be. Every other day in the discord and forums Lugia comes up, actually wild that it has become the new hot topic in terms of what to drop in the future like Darkrai was during teal mask
Who said two legends cannot coexist
Haha thanks
Okay BUT WHY DID THEH HAVE TO TAKE SLEEP CLAUSE FROM UU? Sleep clause worked perfectly fine…
ok but when are the council gonna ban falinks >:( the no retreat set is taking over the metagame
I agree this must be addressed immediately. Falinks has gone too far.
Wow Finch is foreign!
(It’s ok because I’m foreign, too)
i miss thé emu era of SV ou everything was so cheap bax was UU espathra and chien pao were super cheap but mad fun
Can't say I agree, but it certainly was an interesting time
UNBAN ANNIHILAPE
... no.
One thing I’m shocked was never considered watching tier history and survey: terraless ladder. It’s like the most scientific wae to see how many uuber guys were only so cracked cuzza terra, there’s easily been bigger complex bans. It’s simple. 1 manipulated factor. And more fruitful than say nat dex uu outright clapping terra. Also skymin. We have technology ⭐️ jovert cloak would end that boi into uu. And I used that item beyond Garg.
Y’all was so quick to axe the shite outta dmax and not even consider giving gmax shit mons a fair trial. While being supa hesitant to not axe an ss clef, pex early dlc. A gambit, ghold, oh but give gliscor the boot. If I didn’t know any better. Smells like fomo 🥴
W/ no terra. What other BS could we handle? Sleep again? Kings rock which again goobed by cloak.
Gliscor was unbanned and no one really finds him problematic,just annoying. Dynamax is a whole other pot of worms that is much more broken than tera could be, with max moves being normally 100+ power moves while having secondary effects like raising stats or terrain/weather
@AdamEvreuklovic some great tasks use ice spinner and gabit is usually last member coming out so nearly no interaction with gliscor and I never said gliscor was broken
Ban raging bolt pls
So ultra offensive mons should be banned but not ultra defensive ones? What about mons that allow others to set up? They banned gliscor before banning gholdengo which was the REAL reason gliscor could set up spikes and earthquake everything in it's path despite it's somewhat low attack (Before the DLC) the council is very bias in which playstyles to keep in check. People are mad because the amount of bans this generation is absurd, every single ban may be justified in a somewhat reasonable matter but banning is not the problem. Banning without the actual balance is the problem. It's ludicrous to think that those unsatisfied are the problem since they're so many something else is clearly the problem. There is no cohesion. Don't even get me started on the amount of times kingambit has been "tested" without an actual answer, banning gouging fire is a very complex way of banning kingambit mate, they'll eventually ban it by taking away all checks but by then the metagame will be either pure stall or semi stall offense.
I am very confused by this. I'd recommend watching the first section of the video, we explain why offensive pokemon get banned more often.
Enough with the bs talk. Let’s look at how every generation the meta always becomes the same crap. What’s the one constant? The OU council. There should be a limit on how many bans can come in a certain timeframe. Like the council should only get 1 ban available to them per every 3 months. This way opinions and sentiments are actually being thought through and studied (because you will only have 1 ban and can’t make another per x amount of time)
Like can we agree that people now a days have more of tendency to bitch and complain? We can’t keep having suspects test because people would rather whine and bitch and try to get things banned rather than giving the meta time to actually develop and let it go through hard phases to see what it comes up with as answers/checks to certain threats. Not just banning shit because it’s the convenient and easy thing to do. Path of least resistance taking bullshit.
Wow this is an incredibly uninformed take. If by "same crap" you mean a balanced and competitive metagame, then yes OU often becomes the "same crap." All of these points you are making are addressed in the video, I recommend you finish watching it.
Yeah lets unban chi-yu and put it back in ou, theyll find a counter after 3 months(good luck with your dachsbun and av azumarill)
Besides you're bitching about the ou council right now(community bans it, ou council only chooses what gets suspected) so get reqs if you want things to stay unbanned
It is over because frickin smogon is banning everyone and everything for seemingly no reason
Bud did not watch the video
@@dribble909don't need to. Opinions invalidated
Says the 1200 Elo noob who hasn’t built a single coherent team in his life. Stop parroting strangers’ opinions, play the actual game, and form your own ideas.
@@lenoon3814 actually incorrect. Rank doesn't matter as it just shows how long you've played not skill level. Also 1200 isn't even close to mine it's higher and I Have several teams (mostly nat dex as it's 1000000000% better than gen 9 ou) and they all work well. Plus unlike 99% of the Smogon players I make teams In GAME as well and win with those teams. Literally just a Smogon skill issue.
@@CodyTheBlackChickenSubscribeice punch dusknoir (to crit ohko landoT)and iron tail espeon ( to deal 61.6% with band on espathra)must be mainstays on your numerous teams