Why Snorlax Dominates GSC: czcams.com/video/8Sq9jzDKCQs/video.html Offense in GSC OU: why it's good (or why GSC is not all stall): czcams.com/video/uSCI1kAoBoM/video.html 2013 ban discussion: www.smogon.com/forums/threads/snorlax-ought-to-be-nixed-no-im-serious.3483658/
Best analogy I can think of is a queen in chess. In a vacuum it sounds broken, in fact when it was first buffed around the 15th century (originally it could only move one diagonal square at a time) people dubbed the game “mad queen chess.” But players adapted to it and incorporated it, and now it’s hard to imagine the game without it.
Sometimes I feel disconnected from CZcamsrs, like they are so different from me. BKC complaining about Gen5OU within less then a minute shows that BKC IS human, he has opinions so much like me, who can't go an hour of doing anything Pokemon related without complaining about Gen5OU. Thank you BKC for validating my opinion
Gen 5 ou is the worst "normal" metagame of all time. Sure there some steaming piles of trash like gen 8 pure hackmons but it doesn't have to be played in important tournaments
@@ellieswagaye I'd say gen 9 is pretty fun because of the large variety of viable mons although I do think there should be some action taken against tera and gen 2 isn't as stally as people make it out to be, mainly due to snorlax holding the metagame together
I like that in the end gsc ou becomes a pragmatic "no major legendaries, no event mons" and it stays that way. I like the idea of banning arbitrary things, but sometimes it's a good feeling that you're playing a more classic, kitchen-table type of pokemon.
@@DJFracus Wobbuffet is partially banned due to its capacity for causing an endless battle in a mirror match, but the other issue is that it's more "disruptive" than "powerful." It's not that it does too much itself, but rather that it basically just doesn't let your opponent play the video game. This may also be why Sand Veil was finally given the boot despite the users of the ability not being very consistent: it effectively changes the "rules" of the game, tossing out any teambuilding decisions you've made regarding power vs accuracy, just like how wobbuffet removes all in-the-moment decision-making from the opponent by disabling their ability to switch and locking them into a single move.
RBY Tauros would arguably be more banworthy because it can threaten basically everything with just its standard set with minimal reason to customize that teamslot at all. Lax can threaten/beat everything but not necessarily with just one set. But it'd be very uncontroversial in either case.
@@heavylobster4339 yeah i agree . Taurus would probably need to be banned too. But that'd probably make chansey way too ridiculous so we'd need to ban that
@@kabirdang1346 lmao no because "banning defensive mons is hard" yes they did say that, and yes they did get bailed out by dlc 2 otherwise toxapex and clef would stemaroll the game.
other videos id like to see: -rby tauros -serene grace (especially after the kings rock discussion) -why darkrai isn’t OU post dark void nerf, especially in gen 7 (i think it was suspected in gen 6) -history of gen 3 UUBL and how 40+ mons were banned from UU instead of letting everything else fall to RU and below -why smogon doesn’t have a suspect ladder alongside the main OU ladder to constantly test ubers mons, etc
When I saw the RoA Rotational Ladder has ADV BL as a tier my head exploded. It sounds insane to have FORTY Pokemon on that tier. RU wasn't a thing back then and I'm sure the jannies think it'd be too much of a pain to create a new tier
I wonder how much of our ideas of what a Snorlax-less meta looks like is based on tournaments with a few weeks/months of preparation rather than the years of marinating that a typical meta goes through. If counters for things such as Zapdos & Blissey would reveal themselves over a long enough timeline or not.
In future generations things like counters rising out of unteired to do their things when staples get banned is a legit thing, but in gen 1 there are simply not enough pokemon for this to happen. Gen 1 has been around for so long with not that many pokemon people have explored every possible option and thought there is to have with it dude
This feels like a direct response to Big Yellow's video on banned Pokemon strategies where he makes an aside to mention why Snorlax isn't banned. Great video, as always, Kevin.
Although Gen 1-2 clearly could have been managed better, I also wonder if the limited game space in these gens (particularly no abilities) makes it harder for Pokemon to develop diverse niches, meaning that even if the current top offenders were banned, whatever ended up replacing them would also end up with outsized usage compared to modern gens.
Big boi stops everything in Ubers and OU, but Big boi is slow and if smart, beatable. Big boi isn't broken, Big boi is glue, everything else falls apart without Big boi.
I remember in your BW OU debate, you mentioned that you think Zapdos is actually the best ‘mon in GSC OU, and not Lax. I would love a video explaining why, especially considering how unpopular that opinion has been for the past 2.5 decades.
After playing GSC for enough time it’s super obvious. The metagame would be substantially worse without Lax. There wouldn’t really be a lot of counterplay to some mons. Especially zapdos
@@kirbyfazendoummoonwalk9214 Because Snorlax is the only thing that makes GSC OU be unique and the only reason to even give it a try instead of all the other better Generations
@@kirbyfazendoummoonwalk9214 banning snorlax would lead to a bunch of other bans, could be interesting but probably not worth it at this point for a 20 year old metagame
Is there a reason you don't install an ad block? Can disable it when you don't record if you want to support creators. Don't mean to be annoying genuinely asking
The background footage shows a lot of instances of Pokemon using Rest while still asleep. I'm assuming that's through gen 2 Sleep Talk, but the fact that it's edited around is a bit distracting. Especially since Rest doesn't fail when used under Sleep Talk in gen 2
I know you said Lax is an exception and that normally broken pokemon shouldn't be allowed regardless of whether they're good for the meta or not. However, I still wonder how many other ubers would have a healthy effect on their OU metas if they were introduced, like how you mentioned at the end of your video suggesting improvements for gen 5.
I think one of the reasons GSC Snorlax is considered healthier than, say, DPP Salamence is probably because of that absolutely pathetic base 30 speed stat. It obviously doesn't invalidate 'lax (as evidenced by the fact we're having this conversation in the first place,) but the fact that it will almost always be moving second opens up a lot more counterplay, whether it be through stalling, status, or simply threatening big damage that it can't preempt with its own attacks. Perhaps the most crucial part is how its speed dictates its interaction with rest, both when using it itself and against opposing pokemon with rest. Since Snorlax is going to move second, it has to click "rest" before it gets into "kill range," which a savvy player can take advantage of by either switching into a wallbreaker, or something that likes being able to setup for free (such as marowak, or belly drum snorlax,) and while the snorlax user could predict the switch and attack, they'd be risking their snorlax's life, and even if it survived the attack, it probably won't get another free turn for a while, severely limiting its use. On the other hand, snorlax's low speed also means that an opponent is effectively guaranteed to be able to heal in front of snorlax, especially if 'lax can't immediately threaten it. There's also the fact that snorlax doesn't really require you to run anything specific; if your team can't handle snorlax, then there's likely a whole lot of things it can't handle. Aside from that, I do personally like extremely flexible pokemon like snorlax and landorus, mainly due to how they are affected by species clause. If, for example, snorlax's physical and special sets were enitrely different pokemon (with identical stats and typings,) then the metagame would probably be more constrained not just due to everyone running both pokemon, but also needing to be able to deal with both of them consecutively during the same battle. Since these are different sets on the same pokemon, however, players have to choose between them, and while your team should still be built to handle any set, you still only need to get through one 523hp tank per battle.
I'm never one for an appeal to tradition of "we shouldn't do it because things weren't tiered at the time". But i don't understand the meta or the game as well as others. Everything else makes sense but just saying "we shouldn't change it because historically it was like that" will never get us anywhere. The other points, totally fair
I’ve been on Smogon for 18 years, and the obsession with balancing metagames to a “perfect state” has always been there. There are absolutely many times where bans are 100% warranted, but it’s just been too much. Some people enjoy the 100 page threads with soliloquies from even more posters, but I guess my threshold for banning in general is different. Unpopular opinion but wanted to chime in here. Great video!
Trying achieve that perfect state seems to be in our nature. From competitive pokemon to political movements, and everything in between. I think it’s important to ground ourselves with the idea of trade-offs, and start with the assumption that there is no ideal solution. Its surprisingly easy to have something remarkably great in your grasp, and lose everything in the pursuit of perfection. Often the best decision is the one that does the least harm, rather than the one with the most potential good. tldr: POCKET SAND!!
Here's an idea: ask an oil prince to finance a tournament without lax/zapdos, and allowing celebi/ho-oh. Let everyone have a blast, make some content out of it, call it "GSC Modern". After that just go back to regular gsc ou, but it would be interesting.
I would love to hear more about the era of pre-tiering, pre-smogon competitive pokemon. I remember seeing forums in like 2003 of talking how to competitively build gen 3 Pokemon and it blew my mind.
I think you can explain the reason why in one very simple sentence: "Banning in old generations should not destroy the lifeblood of that metagame." It's the same as banning weather in Gen 5 or banning any of the big 3/4 in Gen 1. It completely changes a settled metagame. Hence why the ongoing BP bans in gen 3 are fine, and why gems ben in gen 5 were ok. They weren't "the" lifeblood of the metagame
Honestly...I think I kinda agree with this. Because what you really need to do is dig down and examine why people go back to play these old formats in the first place. Anybody who just wants competitive Pokemon will be playing one of the newer ones...the only reason to come back to these time periods is specifically for identity quirks like this, otherwise there wouldn't be much point.
Like the last whole month I thought about this and since I dont know much about the high level pokemon. And you actually made a video about it now!!! Thank you. 😊
I find these types of discussions interesting from a game-design perspective. Players are notoriously impatient and quick to call for the removal of anything that offends them. Josh Sawyer has an interesting GDC talk where he discusses the impact player perception has on how games are developed: czcams.com/video/fvyrEhAMUPo/video.html Something that should be brought up during discussions like this is that most, if not all meta-games will inevitably end in a state similar to RBY/GSC where you have a handful of incredibly powerful options that are too good to not use. I think topics like this are better viewed from the perspective of what kind of game do we want to play, how do we get there, and are the current powerhouses a part of that game or not. Because there's no real objective metric for what "balanced" is. It's just whatever we as a community find the most enjoyable and rewarding to play. Though this can end up being kind of complex in practice as we're often not able to see how a meta will develop in the long-run.
I think theoretically, a metagame properly designed and balanced around Lax not existing would ultimately be better and more interesting by pretty much any standard we judge formats by today. But these old metagames are as much pieces of Pokemon history as they are competitive formats. The tier you'd end up with after all the bannings/unbannings that a Lax ban would necessitate would share so little DNA with the original format that it wouldn't be GSC OU anymore. And who would that new metagame be for? Anyone who's still playing gens 1 and 2 at this point knows what they're getting into. They *want* the duct-taped game mechanics, and the weird primitive tiering system. They *want* big daddy Snorlax to step on them. Leave them be.
@@graylyhen9490 The people voting are gen 2 players, i.e. people who have played the Snorlax meta for years and either actively like it or at least don't mind it. Snorlax is never getting banned.
I feel like laxless is the "tradebacks" of gen 2. Tradebacks is a diffrent thing and small playerbase+ change is scarry means little to develoup at a time
The whole point of gen 2 OU as tier is the fun of playing around each other's Snorlax. It's like asking someone why they allow tackling in football. Because it's a game for people who like to tackle and who like to try to dodge tackles. If that doesn't sound fun to you, play a different game.
@@aceclover758 this whole video screams if snorlax gets banned the things he checked becomes too broken this results on a lot of pokemon to get banned for no reason since while snorlax is not passive he does not sweep all of your team regularly he just enables others from going on a rampage or stopping that this is similar to toxapex while that thing is good it is passive and checks many pokemon who could genuinally break the game when thier only counter is banned an exemple of this is blaziken it is not in ubers because now there is counters (including pex but it is not only it) and when he didn't have his counters he was an UBERS
@BKC so basically snorlax is the fisherking. Yes snorlax warps the tier around him but it is why gsc is so amazing. Without snorlax it becomes a special attack apacolypse.
One thing i wanto comment on this: From what i saw the gsc ou ladder is the least played of all ou metagames which suggests the small playerbase around it. On the one hand you could argue that this is because it is the least favoured metagame and therefore should be changed, but on the other hand it is questionable if change is realistic with such a small playerbase.
Yeah, there's always a chance that changing it would only make that small playerbase leave and nobody else could come in to replace them. I mean most new players are going to want something more modern with more of their favorites.
OK so basically it is broken, it is the definition of broken it is SO power infact it WARPS the whole metagame around, BUT that is a good thin because you would rather be the meta game warped around snorlax then the broken shit that happens without. if this was treated the way modern ou is treated we would have 300 suspect tests for each mon only to end up in a murky bulky balance metagame with no good ways to break.
I feel like there should be a tournament without lax and zap, not having the playerbase for a suspect test is a thing sure but I feel this would at least offer some interesting insight
Hi bkc. I like your videos a good bit. I found you from the chansey false swipe gaming video, and have been watching since. Your videos on the history of moves like substitute have been particularly engaging. I wanted to ask what you thought of this umbreon set i thought up for gsc ou. Mean look, rest, growl, and sand attack. I have taken down cloyster, ferrothorn, gengar, and snorlax with this set, and it has won me a few games singlehandily. Typically, i switch into either of the shelled spikers after they come in. Then, i mean look. As the opponent goes through the moves, i debuff their pokemon. Eventually they explode. I like this set because most, if not all, teams run 1 spiker. This means after the shelled spiker goes down, i can spin them away, permanently. Additionally, gengar's best move for umbreon is dynamic punch, which is vulnerable to both growl and sand. Once umbreon gets a few debuffs stuck on snorlax, it won't matter if it grts a slam para or a crit double edge. Generally, umbreon takes 90% from a ferrothorn explosion. But even if umbreon dies, it still traded at least. What do you think of this set, as one who has faced the highest peaks and lowest lows P.s. the singlehand wins were from surrender.
I honestly like that Snorlax is everywhere. It's super powerful so if you manage to take theirs down while preserving yours, it feels like you become a boss character. Also, it makes teambuilding much less stressful for new players since you know that no matter what you'll be up against a Lax and can build around it's most common sets
As someone who has played more gsc than most but doesn't specialize in it despite liking it due to not being able to play enough of it because the lack of ladder games, I can tell snorlax being banned would honestly have a massive metagame shifting effect that would be for the worse as lax is key to checking many many pokémon as well as allowing progress to be made with many teams that otherwise would have issues in some matchups and as a whole without a reliable progress maker like lax. Lax is similar to landorus therian in later gens but notably less instantly deadly, unable to set hazards, a special wall instead of physical, lacking brutally powerful that always are worth clicking at times tools like u-turn and knock off as well as snorlax being exploitible due to it using rest as recovery in nearly every set in top of needing to set up to gain a pressence which limit's it moveset further leaving it with 1 or two moves if it wants to set up. Snorlax's offensive sets are it's most deadly in a similar vein to landorus but unlike landorus snorlax lacks decent speed as a whole even on set up sets with belly drum that don't lower it further and as a result snorlax will often have to take hits from nearly every member of the opposing team if it wants to sweep with drum or in the case of curse it gets a better ability to takes those hits but has to spend several turns predictably setting up which will often get it twarted by phazers or other mons that will harass it while it tries to do so.
Not to be pedantic, but you mentioned something along the line of tiering action not really happening until generation 4, but there was Wobbuffet in gen 3 which got banned, and I’m fairly sure that it got banned during the time gen 3 was current gen. Did you not mention this because Wobbuffet is a very special case?
I'm honestly curious how much a metagame with Ho-Oh/Celebi added would shake things up since you mention a time they were both considered for OU. Then again at the same time I'm also interested in how Lax/Zapdos being removed (With no other changes) would go as well. Since Laxless has been tried a few times before what do you think would be most likely to rise to the top of OU in a meta without Lax or Zapdos? Also why play OU if the best pokemon is already in OU? Is there something about GSC Ubers that makes it an unfun metagame compared to OU or is it just more of tradition?
I think this is why niche tournaments like uubl are good,because they let these old metagames test things out in a "contained" way. A random small tourney without both snorlax and zapdos would be good for valuable data tho. Same with a ho-oh tourney. If one of these tourneys creates a fun and incredibly healthy metagame that could be sustained for an extended time then,and only then could this be tested out in mainline ou.(and only after further testing and stuff)
The best way I can think to summarize why Lax isn't banned in Gen 2 is one question; would this metagame be better for having banned it? I don't think so, because the Sp. Def. and offensive pressure Lax brings to the table is the only major roadblock keeping the Electrics from slaughtering the entire tier. You could unban Celebi after to kind of deal with the Electrics defensively, but it would turn the tier into true unmitigated stall wars where the games would go hundreds of turns on a regular basis. Zapdos would almost certainly start slotting in Drill Peck just to get Super Effective damage on it. Leech Seed + Recover on a 100 across the board Pokemon is just too good in a meta where it doesn't have consistent checks.
It's because the GSC playerbase decided that the tier is more fun and enjoyable with Snorlax around than without it - it's really that simple. Sure, people like to get into specifics of what constitutes a mon as "healthy" and how Snorlax's versatility and role compression actually opens up teambuilding rather than restricting it...but you really don't need any more of a better reason than that, especially for such an old metagame known for its dearth of options. It's the same reason why DPP Latias got unbanned even though it soft-checks like half of the metagame.
I think it comes down to the distinction between the desire for balance and the desire for fun. Snorlax holds the playability of the tier together and makes for a more interesting and enjoyable metagame.
I also think getting rid of Snorlax would get rid of a lot of GSC’s identity Snorlax is the best, Pokémon GSC just as much as GSC is dominated by Snorlax
Yes, but salamence isn’t integral to gen 4 OU identity at least when I think of it the first thing I think of a stealth rock and the lead meta game to me it be more like if deoxys speed got banned from generation 4 Ubers maybe the lead meta game would be far more diverse, but dealing with deoxys Leads is a huge part of the tier and a part of the reason why people find it fun
Snorlax is undoubtedly busted, but the fact that it has a surprisingly high amount of (viable) counterplay that doesn't warp the metagame to an unhealthy state keeps it from being truly banworthy. It's most comparable to melmetal actually (but better obviously). Wait, ho-oh was once ou in gen 2? Why? Was Lugia?
Despite the analogy with chess queen, the truth is they've gone too far with Snorlax in Gen 2. The whole Gen 2 mechanic was made for him. Rest was a solid choice for Lax even in RBY even though sleep condition was one of the most feared back in the day due to the fact awakening turn didn't allow the user Pokemon to attack. GSC mechanic not only fixed it but also brought an outstanding move for Restallers: Sleep Talk. Besides, Gen 2 provided us with moves that suited Snorlax better than any other Pokemon, like Curse and Belly Drum. Furthermore, the possibility of holding items like Leftovers and Mint Berry in a battle also helps Lax's strategies more than the conventional. And, if it weren't enough, while most of high/top tier Pokemons like Gyarados, Articuno and Cloyster got nerfed during Special stats distribution, GameFreak gifted Snorlax with the most significant boost in this transition, turn his SpDef from 65 to 110. As if his massive HP stats didn't protect him enough against special attackers... (just to make it clear that even Psychic's Alakazam was likely to fail to 3 OHKO Snorlax in Gen 1) It's perfectly possible to turn him into an amazing competitor without breaking the whole GSC metagame. For the balance's sake, I believe some changes could have been made to fix it: *1. Snorlax's overall stats:* There is absolutely no reason why Snorlax's stats should be as high as Gyarados' one (540). 480 is good enough. These are the alterations: • SpAtt: 65 → *50* • SpDef: 110 → *65* It might seem too harsh towards him at first, but it's not necessarily true. Back in Gen 1, Snorlax's Special stat was just 65, slightly lower than Tauros'. Despite it, Lax was one of the best special sponge in the game thanks to his massive HP. Even Psychic's Alakazam was likely to fail to 3 OHKO Snorlax Gen 1. The only Pokemons which handled it better that isn't Psychic or legendary thing were Chansey and Vaporeon. Hence, it's safe to say Snorlax would still be a solid wall hard to be knock down. The small decrease in SpAtt is just to prevent Lax's Fire Blast OHKOing necessary threats like Skarmory and Forretress. Besides, the OG status that made Snorlax a powerhouse both Gen 1 remains unchanged. *2. Curselax:* Almost everything can learn Curse, technique way overused in Gen 2. Restricting it for few Pokemons could improve the overall experience for the GSC metagame. Obviously, the best way to avoid Snorlax running wild is to deny him learning it. It means the only legal way to bring Curselax back is through sweeping or Metronome (good luck). And I tell you in advance that very few sweepers would access Curse - maybe some Pokemons that belong to UU tier, like Girafarig and Mr. Mime, bringing more variety to the game and maybe giving them a strong reason to be somehow considered in the team. *3. Lovely Kiss:* No Lovely Kiss for Snorlax. His movepool is already very vast. By the way, he isn't sexy enough. *4. Drumlax and Restallers:* The wildest card left for Snorlax is his combo Belly Drum + Rest, leave alone Sleep Talk. Unlike Curse, it makes sense Lax learns all these moves due to his natural demeanour (fat and sleepy Pokemon). As his OG stats weren't modified, technically nothing was changed here, except now special attackers may actually inflict some damage on him. In a nutshell, Drumlax can still wipe out a whole team on his own with little consequences. So how can we turn Drumlax into a force to be reckoned without breaking the metagame or defying logic? It might be a little risky, but some alterations in GSC metagame could find a interesting balance here: • (4.1) Rest would recover 75% of HP instead 100%. • (4.2) Rest cannot be reactivated via Sleep Talk. If Rest was randomly chosen, the user just lost the turn. • (4.3) Belly Drum can still take 1/2 of maximum HP down even if its Attack stats is at maximum. It would just fail only if the user would faint in the process. Not necessarily all these options must be applied, but they definitely help to make Drumlax less unwinnable. The first option (4.1) lessens Rest effectiveness. It would still heal more HP than Recover variations, still viable for Snorlax, but it prevents Drumlax's Rest becoming so annoyingly broken. Combining it with the second one (4.2) could definitely push Snorlax down from the god tier since he couldn't heal himself for, at least, 2 turns. And, even if he uses Rest right after, he may not recover all his HP depending on opposing fire power. The third option (4.3) would make the combo Belly Drum + Rest + Sleep Talk way more risky for Snorlax's users since there is 25% of chance to this combo goes south. As Gengar and Misdreavus are secure counters for this Drumlax variant, maybe this option isn't as necessary as the two formers. I'd tend to apply 4.1 and 4.2 options, but the combo 4.2 + 4.3 and all of them just please me as well. I believe all these changes could offer Gen 2 more balance and variety for the metagame overall. Snorlax would still be a force to be reckoned in the end, but not nearly as indestructible.
Video summary: Yeah it should probably be banned but if we banned Snorlax we'd also probably have to ban Zapdos. Nobody knows what that metagame would be like and GSC doesn't have the player base to effectively suspect test that double ban and, also, despite how busted Lax is the metagame is surprisingly balanced (and likely more interesting than a hyper stall fest that would ensue if he was removed). --- Thing I learned this video is that GSC OU is apparently offensive. That tracks with the few matches I've watched. After hearing secondhand it's stally as is I'd just accepted that.
If I were to propose anything, that would be preparing an alternative metagame like "Modern GSC", so people can try it out and see if it actually works instead of modifying the current GSC metagame entirely. In the end, it is true that this meta lacks people to actively play it and thus could be a meaningless try, but it may be worth a shot to see what it leads to; maybe some pokemon rise in priority in ways never seen before and we could never know :C
My response I have always used to this question is that there is actually a tier where Snorlax is banned and enough other things are banned that the metagame is balanced in a less centralized way: It's called UU.
Having read the forums I know the answer is that the meta game is better with him but I could just never see that happening with todays standards where everything has to be principled.
I was curious about the answer to this. I was going to suggest this to you but seems like you beat me too it Edit: I have a question, how does a lack of players players playing a metagame make it harder to make change? I would think it’d be the opposite because there is less people involved so the decision making is a lot faster?
less players means it takes more time for the ensuing metagame to develop (which is a problem if there are other problematic aspects rising after the ban, it'll take too long to get to them, metagame festers, nobody's happy)
So basically, because of the lack of precedent to do it differently, they ended up discovering a much more fun ruleset for those games. I wonder what later gens might have better rulesets that weren't discovered because they didn't start from scratch in the same way.
Celebi or Ho-oh might be "worse", but its not that simple, i don't think. Everything would have to run HP bug to deal with celebi, otherwise it just doesn't die, its a stalling machine. It definitely would slow down the game, considerably. Ho-Oh i don't know much about tbh, guess its hard to switch into, between coverage and burns, and it has great special bulk.
GSC OU offense is centered around Snorlax. A more strongly stall centered metagame would be boring, and generally I find most of the non OU GSC metas (including ubers, where Snorlax's power/wall-breaking runs into the stronger walls of Ubers tier) to be relatively boring and one-paced in comparison.
Being not at all involved in the community side of things with Smogon, I wonder whether an individual or individuals could organise suspect tournaments for things like “GSC with Hooh and Celebi” or “GSC without Snorlax and Zapdos”, or even both those things at once?
an individual or group of individuals would be at perfect liberty to do so, drumming up interest would be another matter (would need a substantial cash prize)
@@BKCplaysPokemon I was thinking of the way Freezai got so many people interested in Little Cup as a potential model. That said, perhaps "suspect" is not an appropriate description, as that would imply a large number of experienced and successful players rather than just people like me.
Genuinely asking, isn’t one of Smogon‘s main policies that „without this mon other things would become broken“ is not a vaild point against a ban? Or is this an exception because you don’t want to change such an old metagame (which would be pretty understandable)
A lot of this video kind of meanders around this argument. Snorlax is the exception just because he is. I'm really not a fan of this logic but I think there is merit to it. Because at the end of the day a laxless meta is going to bring down a cavalcade of other issues that rise up and maybe that period of learning to play around them is too much for players to want to figure out. ~But tbh don't take what I say too seriously. I am a fan of 5th Gen OU's toxic bullshit~
@@CloudyDaze to me as an outsider, Gen 5 seems like a massive rabbit hole. It just feels like they are always banning something every 2-3 weeks and then something new broken approaches that makes the game unplayable
@@gigalodon14 Oh absolutely. The leap in power in Gen 5 is crazy. I mainly like it because of nostalgia, this being the generation that got me into competitive, but I just also find it fascinating how much a meta can shift with what pokemon can or can't be here. The idea that it's always volitile kind of makes me always interested. I'm not saying that makes it a good metagame by any stretch. But I find it more interesting.
I think the difference is that Snorlax promotes more "skillful" play whereas other obviously broken Pokemon/mechanics (Garchomp in DPP, Gems in BW, a lot of megas in ORAS, Big Mode in Gen 8, etc) allow you to win more brainlessly. If you are careless with your Snorlax, you can lose it to something like Growl Miltank, or the enemy Snorlax.
Plus Snorlax is slow, so you can do things to it, whereas a lot of later gen broken mons are speed demons or setup sweepers that 6-0 teams with zero recourse if given a free turn
@@deeznoots6241 snorlax being slow is basically not relevant as a flaw though since nothing is getting through snorlax by itself. Given a free turn, Snorlax will still 6-0 your team if unprepared.
It doesn't feel broken despite it being required. Since there are multiple check to it that you do not need to go out of your way to incorporate in your team building. Since GSC is insular enough generation.
Any time a pokemon has more than like a 50% pick rate it should be banned to a higher tier. Snorlax has a 99.9% pick rate. There is no legitimate argument for it not to be banned. No other competitive game allows that stuff. As well GSC Snorlax is probably the most overpowered pokemon in history as even stuff like Arceus does not have the same pick rate in ubers. RBY Mewtwo is probably an exception but that was banned.
yo BKC Why did Exeggutor fall of so hard in ADV? Just checked and it isn't even on the viablity rankings and fucking Wailord made it in E Rank, I can't imagine it being THIS bad. Sleeping something and chunking something alse with boom has to be somewhat useful?
Just a question on how ho-oh would slow down the meta. I cam understand with celebi. Ho-oh I thought would be some curse sweeper or something. Like 110 special attack is still nothing to scoff at.
@@BKCplaysPokemon How do you think Ho-oh would deal with only having 8 sacred fires? It'd lose its fire STAB pretty quick with all the things that run rest. Would it be that potent offensively that 8 is enough?
I'm gonna guess it's because Snorlax fell off afterwards and Lando keeps hanging around forever. I don't know the ways people try to play around Lando, either, it might actually be more broken, or more predictable (Snorlax has a lot of potential sets with different weaknesses so there is some variety there) or something.
@@spencerhorne5627 magearna was hardly slow, it could just blow through teams just by spamming really powerful attacks and getting buffs plus it was probably used on stall
That feels like it would needlessly split the player base. Like, would there be consistent ladders for both? Which one would be played in multi-gen tournaments like Smogon Classic? Which one’s the “real” Gen 2 OU? The point of OU is that it’s the “standard” tier. Separating the tier into 2 completely goes against the entire point of OU
Why Snorlax Dominates GSC: czcams.com/video/8Sq9jzDKCQs/video.html
Offense in GSC OU: why it's good (or why GSC is not all stall): czcams.com/video/uSCI1kAoBoM/video.html
2013 ban discussion: www.smogon.com/forums/threads/snorlax-ought-to-be-nixed-no-im-serious.3483658/
It is not the best in Ubers. Mewtwo with reflect, hidden power rock and submission and thunderbolt with leftovers is better
A 16 minute video is the BKC equivalent of a youtube short
Was literally my thought as I clicked lmfao “ah this is actually digestible and I’m simply eating dinner”
It looped three times before I scrolled to the next!
Best analogy I can think of is a queen in chess. In a vacuum it sounds broken, in fact when it was first buffed around the 15th century (originally it could only move one diagonal square at a time) people dubbed the game “mad queen chess.” But players adapted to it and incorporated it, and now it’s hard to imagine the game without it.
Never knew there were Chess patchnotes
@@Qvartz_Lite yeah Middle Ages Smogon tried to have a queen suspect test but not enough people could read to get the reqs lol
@@JamesJones-ts5fl Lmao
@@JamesJones-ts5fl lol
Unban Knook please
BKC Drinking challenge: take a shot every time BKC brings up Gen 5 OU in an unrelated video
Sometimes I feel disconnected from CZcamsrs, like they are so different from me.
BKC complaining about Gen5OU within less then a minute shows that BKC IS human, he has opinions so much like me, who can't go an hour of doing anything Pokemon related without complaining about Gen5OU. Thank you BKC for validating my opinion
Gen 5 ou is the worst "normal" metagame of all time. Sure there some steaming piles of trash like gen 8 pure hackmons but it doesn't have to be played in important tournaments
@@theschnozzler gen 2 and gen 9 shittier than both combined
@@ellieswagaye and I must ask why do you think that?
well gen 9 for tera, gen 2 for snorlax domination. Both so much more boring than the chaos that was gen 5@@theschnozzler
@@ellieswagaye I'd say gen 9 is pretty fun because of the large variety of viable mons although I do think there should be some action taken against tera and gen 2 isn't as stally as people make it out to be, mainly due to snorlax holding the metagame together
I like that in the end gsc ou becomes a pragmatic "no major legendaries, no event mons" and it stays that way. I like the idea of banning arbitrary things, but sometimes it's a good feeling that you're playing a more classic, kitchen-table type of pokemon.
ADV should do this too.
@@Akiak7 What does ADV have that makes it feel that way?
@@graylyhen9490 why not? it's the last generation without any broken non-restricted pokemon
@@Akiak7 Wobbuffet
@@DJFracus Wobbuffet is partially banned due to its capacity for causing an endless battle in a mirror match, but the other issue is that it's more "disruptive" than "powerful." It's not that it does too much itself, but rather that it basically just doesn't let your opponent play the video game. This may also be why Sand Veil was finally given the boot despite the users of the ability not being very consistent: it effectively changes the "rules" of the game, tossing out any teambuilding decisions you've made regarding power vs accuracy, just like how wobbuffet removes all in-the-moment decision-making from the opponent by disabling their ability to switch and locking them into a single move.
I still believe that if gsc was the modern metagame snorlax would've been banned
100%. If this was the modern metagame, they'd ban snorlax, and anything that became a problem afterwards, just like they did in other gens.
RBY Tauros would arguably be more banworthy because it can threaten basically everything with just its standard set with minimal reason to customize that teamslot at all. Lax can threaten/beat everything but not necessarily with just one set. But it'd be very uncontroversial in either case.
@@heavylobster4339 yeah i agree . Taurus would probably need to be banned too. But that'd probably make chansey way too ridiculous so we'd need to ban that
@@kabirdang1346 lmao no because "banning defensive mons is hard" yes they did say that, and yes they did get bailed out by dlc 2 otherwise toxapex and clef would stemaroll the game.
As it should be
Honestly, this sounds like a 16 minute long way to say "Grandfather clause" 😄
other videos id like to see:
-rby tauros
-serene grace (especially after the kings rock discussion)
-why darkrai isn’t OU post dark void nerf, especially in gen 7 (i think it was suspected in gen 6)
-history of gen 3 UUBL and how 40+ mons were banned from UU instead of letting everything else fall to RU and below
-why smogon doesn’t have a suspect ladder alongside the main OU ladder to constantly test ubers mons, etc
When I saw the RoA Rotational Ladder has ADV BL as a tier my head exploded. It sounds insane to have FORTY Pokemon on that tier. RU wasn't a thing back then and I'm sure the jannies think it'd be too much of a pain to create a new tier
there are too few Pokémon to make an RU tier
@@ShinyTillDawn too few? just then UU into RU and then UUBL becomes UU.
As for why Rai isn't OU, well the answer is rather simple. 135 SpAtk with perfect coverage and an excellent speed tier is busted.
Welp.. 10+ UUBL unban testing & Darkrai is in OU
I wonder how much of our ideas of what a Snorlax-less meta looks like is based on tournaments with a few weeks/months of preparation rather than the years of marinating that a typical meta goes through. If counters for things such as Zapdos & Blissey would reveal themselves over a long enough timeline or not.
In future generations things like counters rising out of unteired to do their things when staples get banned is a legit thing, but in gen 1 there are simply not enough pokemon for this to happen.
Gen 1 has been around for so long with not that many pokemon people have explored every possible option and thought there is to have with it dude
This feels like a direct response to Big Yellow's video on banned Pokemon strategies where he makes an aside to mention why Snorlax isn't banned. Great video, as always, Kevin.
Although Gen 1-2 clearly could have been managed better, I also wonder if the limited game space in these gens (particularly no abilities) makes it harder for Pokemon to develop diverse niches, meaning that even if the current top offenders were banned, whatever ended up replacing them would also end up with outsized usage compared to modern gens.
Big boi stops everything in Ubers and OU, but Big boi is slow and if smart, beatable. Big boi isn't broken, Big boi is glue, everything else falls apart without Big boi.
I remember in your BW OU debate, you mentioned that you think Zapdos is actually the best ‘mon in GSC OU, and not Lax. I would love a video explaining why, especially considering how unpopular that opinion has been for the past 2.5 decades.
After playing GSC for enough time it’s super obvious. The metagame would be substantially worse without Lax. There wouldn’t really be a lot of counterplay to some mons. Especially zapdos
Then why not Ban Zapdos too
@@kirbyfazendoummoonwalk9214 Because Snorlax is the only thing that makes GSC OU be unique and the only reason to even give it a try instead of all the other better Generations
@@kirbyfazendoummoonwalk9214 essentialy snorlax Ban = 15~12 more bans because snorlax prevented all of these op things from doing harm to the tier
@@zester9073 it is not the only thing that makes it unique, that is very silly
@@kirbyfazendoummoonwalk9214 banning snorlax would lead to a bunch of other bans, could be interesting but probably not worth it at this point for a 20 year old metagame
Is there a reason you don't install an ad block? Can disable it when you don't record if you want to support creators. Don't mean to be annoying genuinely asking
The background footage shows a lot of instances of Pokemon using Rest while still asleep. I'm assuming that's through gen 2 Sleep Talk, but the fact that it's edited around is a bit distracting. Especially since Rest doesn't fail when used under Sleep Talk in gen 2
it's not edited, the replays from the time are a bit glitched
I know you said Lax is an exception and that normally broken pokemon shouldn't be allowed regardless of whether they're good for the meta or not. However, I still wonder how many other ubers would have a healthy effect on their OU metas if they were introduced, like how you mentioned at the end of your video suggesting improvements for gen 5.
i have never ever played competitive pokémon but i LOVE having your vids on in the background
I think one of the reasons GSC Snorlax is considered healthier than, say, DPP Salamence is probably because of that absolutely pathetic base 30 speed stat. It obviously doesn't invalidate 'lax (as evidenced by the fact we're having this conversation in the first place,) but the fact that it will almost always be moving second opens up a lot more counterplay, whether it be through stalling, status, or simply threatening big damage that it can't preempt with its own attacks. Perhaps the most crucial part is how its speed dictates its interaction with rest, both when using it itself and against opposing pokemon with rest. Since Snorlax is going to move second, it has to click "rest" before it gets into "kill range," which a savvy player can take advantage of by either switching into a wallbreaker, or something that likes being able to setup for free (such as marowak, or belly drum snorlax,) and while the snorlax user could predict the switch and attack, they'd be risking their snorlax's life, and even if it survived the attack, it probably won't get another free turn for a while, severely limiting its use. On the other hand, snorlax's low speed also means that an opponent is effectively guaranteed to be able to heal in front of snorlax, especially if 'lax can't immediately threaten it. There's also the fact that snorlax doesn't really require you to run anything specific; if your team can't handle snorlax, then there's likely a whole lot of things it can't handle.
Aside from that, I do personally like extremely flexible pokemon like snorlax and landorus, mainly due to how they are affected by species clause. If, for example, snorlax's physical and special sets were enitrely different pokemon (with identical stats and typings,) then the metagame would probably be more constrained not just due to everyone running both pokemon, but also needing to be able to deal with both of them consecutively during the same battle. Since these are different sets on the same pokemon, however, players have to choose between them, and while your team should still be built to handle any set, you still only need to get through one 523hp tank per battle.
I'm never one for an appeal to tradition of "we shouldn't do it because things weren't tiered at the time". But i don't understand the meta or the game as well as others. Everything else makes sense but just saying "we shouldn't change it because historically it was like that" will never get us anywhere. The other points, totally fair
I've been wanting BKC to explain this since I started watching the channel
I’ve been on Smogon for 18 years, and the obsession with balancing metagames to a “perfect state” has always been there.
There are absolutely many times where bans are 100% warranted, but it’s just been too much.
Some people enjoy the 100 page threads with soliloquies from even more posters, but I guess my threshold for banning in general is different.
Unpopular opinion but wanted to chime in here.
Great video!
Trying achieve that perfect state seems to be in our nature. From competitive pokemon to political movements, and everything in between.
I think it’s important to ground ourselves with the idea of trade-offs, and start with the assumption that there is no ideal solution. Its surprisingly easy to have something remarkably great in your grasp, and lose everything in the pursuit of perfection. Often the best decision is the one that does the least harm, rather than the one with the most potential good.
tldr: POCKET SAND!!
I was literally asking around on why Snorlax wasn't banned from GSC OU last week. Your video dropping has soothed my enigma.
No way, a BKF video under 20 minutes?!?!?!
Here's an idea: ask an oil prince to finance a tournament without lax/zapdos, and allowing celebi/ho-oh. Let everyone have a blast, make some content out of it, call it "GSC Modern". After that just go back to regular gsc ou, but it would be interesting.
I would love to hear more about the era of pre-tiering, pre-smogon competitive pokemon. I remember seeing forums in like 2003 of talking how to competitively build gen 3 Pokemon and it blew my mind.
I think you can explain the reason why in one very simple sentence: "Banning in old generations should not destroy the lifeblood of that metagame." It's the same as banning weather in Gen 5 or banning any of the big 3/4 in Gen 1. It completely changes a settled metagame.
Hence why the ongoing BP bans in gen 3 are fine, and why gems ben in gen 5 were ok. They weren't "the" lifeblood of the metagame
Gen 5 is *not* a settled metagame
Let me reword that slightly then: It completely changes a long established metagame and removes a lot of its identity
Honestly...I think I kinda agree with this. Because what you really need to do is dig down and examine why people go back to play these old formats in the first place. Anybody who just wants competitive Pokemon will be playing one of the newer ones...the only reason to come back to these time periods is specifically for identity quirks like this, otherwise there wouldn't be much point.
@@ZeroKitsune or yknow gen 7 and 8 OU are trash I've had alot more fun with the older gens because they are better balanced
Truly the Landorus Therian of the time
Like the last whole month I thought about this and since I dont know much about the high level pokemon. And you actually made a video about it now!!! Thank you. 😊
I find these types of discussions interesting from a game-design perspective. Players are notoriously impatient and quick to call for the removal of anything that offends them. Josh Sawyer has an interesting GDC talk where he discusses the impact player perception has on how games are developed: czcams.com/video/fvyrEhAMUPo/video.html
Something that should be brought up during discussions like this is that most, if not all meta-games will inevitably end in a state similar to RBY/GSC where you have a handful of incredibly powerful options that are too good to not use. I think topics like this are better viewed from the perspective of what kind of game do we want to play, how do we get there, and are the current powerhouses a part of that game or not. Because there's no real objective metric for what "balanced" is. It's just whatever we as a community find the most enjoyable and rewarding to play.
Though this can end up being kind of complex in practice as we're often not able to see how a meta will develop in the long-run.
I think theoretically, a metagame properly designed and balanced around Lax not existing would ultimately be better and more interesting by pretty much any standard we judge formats by today. But these old metagames are as much pieces of Pokemon history as they are competitive formats. The tier you'd end up with after all the bannings/unbannings that a Lax ban would necessitate would share so little DNA with the original format that it wouldn't be GSC OU anymore. And who would that new metagame be for? Anyone who's still playing gens 1 and 2 at this point knows what they're getting into. They *want* the duct-taped game mechanics, and the weird primitive tiering system. They *want* big daddy Snorlax to step on them. Leave them be.
Boohoo, appeal to ethos. If it can be rebalanced and voted on then it will be decided. This argument is always bullshit
@@graylyhen9490 The people voting are gen 2 players, i.e. people who have played the Snorlax meta for years and either actively like it or at least don't mind it. Snorlax is never getting banned.
I feel like laxless is the "tradebacks" of gen 2. Tradebacks is a diffrent thing and small playerbase+ change is scarry means little to develoup at a time
"Who would that new metagame be for" people who actualy want to play the metagame instead of just stalling for 150+ turns on every battle
@@zester9073 And where are those people? ...playing a newer gen instead, mostly. Why go back to GSC if that's all you want?
The whole point of gen 2 OU as tier is the fun of playing around each other's Snorlax. It's like asking someone why they allow tackling in football. Because it's a game for people who like to tackle and who like to try to dodge tackles. If that doesn't sound fun to you, play a different game.
That sounds boring and the point of the problem
@@aceclover758 this whole video screams if snorlax gets banned the things he checked becomes too broken this results on a lot of pokemon to get banned for no reason since while snorlax is not passive he does not sweep all of your team regularly he just enables others from going on a rampage or stopping that this is similar to toxapex while that thing is good it is passive and checks many pokemon who could genuinally break the game when thier only counter is banned an exemple of this is blaziken it is not in ubers because now there is counters (including pex but it is not only it) and when he didn't have his counters he was an UBERS
@@aceclover758 so try gen 5 ou without weathers
@BKC so basically snorlax is the fisherking. Yes snorlax warps the tier around him but it is why gsc is so amazing. Without snorlax it becomes a special attack apacolypse.
I would be so interested to have an in-depth video on Zappos in GSC
One thing i wanto comment on this: From what i saw the gsc ou ladder is the least played of all ou metagames which suggests the small playerbase around it. On the one hand you could argue that this is because it is the least favoured metagame and therefore should be changed, but on the other hand it is questionable if change is realistic with such a small playerbase.
Yeah, there's always a chance that changing it would only make that small playerbase leave and nobody else could come in to replace them. I mean most new players are going to want something more modern with more of their favorites.
OK so basically it is broken, it is the definition of broken it is SO power infact it WARPS the whole metagame around, BUT that is a good thin because you would rather be the meta game warped around snorlax then the broken shit that happens without. if this was treated the way modern ou is treated we would have 300 suspect tests for each mon only to end up in a murky bulky balance metagame with no good ways to break.
you make a good point about lax breaking stall teams.
I feel like there should be a tournament without lax and zap, not having the playerbase for a suspect test is a thing sure but I feel this would at least offer some interesting insight
Good point, although it means raikou will run amok
Hi bkc. I like your videos a good bit. I found you from the chansey false swipe gaming video, and have been watching since. Your videos on the history of moves like substitute have been particularly engaging. I wanted to ask what you thought of this umbreon set i thought up for gsc ou. Mean look, rest, growl, and sand attack. I have taken down cloyster, ferrothorn, gengar, and snorlax with this set, and it has won me a few games singlehandily.
Typically, i switch into either of the shelled spikers after they come in. Then, i mean look. As the opponent goes through the moves, i debuff their pokemon. Eventually they explode. I like this set because most, if not all, teams run 1 spiker. This means after the shelled spiker goes down, i can spin them away, permanently. Additionally, gengar's best move for umbreon is dynamic punch, which is vulnerable to both growl and sand.
Once umbreon gets a few debuffs stuck on snorlax, it won't matter if it grts a slam para or a crit double edge.
Generally, umbreon takes 90% from a ferrothorn explosion. But even if umbreon dies, it still traded at least.
What do you think of this set, as one who has faced the highest peaks and lowest lows
P.s. the singlehand wins were from surrender.
wow i blinked and the video was over, how short.
someone should run a laxdos-less tourney i think it would be funny
Rest used to reapply if you rolled it on sleep talk??!?!? Never knew that. Thats crazy
Was it guaranteed 2 turns back then as well?
yes
Yep lol it was so so so dumb.
I honestly like that Snorlax is everywhere. It's super powerful so if you manage to take theirs down while preserving yours, it feels like you become a boss character.
Also, it makes teambuilding much less stressful for new players since you know that no matter what you'll be up against a Lax and can build around it's most common sets
As someone who has played more gsc than most but doesn't specialize in it despite liking it due to not being able to play enough of it because the lack of ladder games, I can tell snorlax being banned would honestly have a massive metagame shifting effect that would be for the worse as lax is key to checking many many pokémon as well as allowing progress to be made with many teams that otherwise would have issues in some matchups and as a whole without a reliable progress maker like lax.
Lax is similar to landorus therian in later gens but notably less instantly deadly, unable to set hazards, a special wall instead of physical, lacking brutally powerful that always are worth clicking at times tools like u-turn and knock off as well as snorlax being exploitible due to it using rest as recovery in nearly every set in top of needing to set up to gain a pressence which limit's it moveset further leaving it with 1 or two moves if it wants to set up.
Snorlax's offensive sets are it's most deadly in a similar vein to landorus but unlike landorus snorlax lacks decent speed as a whole even on set up sets with belly drum that don't lower it further and as a result snorlax will often have to take hits from nearly every member of the opposing team if it wants to sweep with drum or in the case of curse it gets a better ability to takes those hits but has to spend several turns predictably setting up which will often get it twarted by phazers or other mons that will harass it while it tries to do so.
Please talk to False Swipe Gaming and see if he can redo a “how great was snorlax actually?”
Not to be pedantic, but you mentioned something along the line of tiering action not really happening until generation 4, but there was Wobbuffet in gen 3 which got banned, and I’m fairly sure that it got banned during the time gen 3 was current gen. Did you not mention this because Wobbuffet is a very special case?
community tiering, ie suspect tests, weren't a thing til gen 4. celebi was banned and unbanned when gen 3 was current too
@@BKCplaysPokemon gotcha, thanks.
I'm honestly curious how much a metagame with Ho-Oh/Celebi added would shake things up since you mention a time they were both considered for OU. Then again at the same time I'm also interested in how Lax/Zapdos being removed (With no other changes) would go as well. Since Laxless has been tried a few times before what do you think would be most likely to rise to the top of OU in a meta without Lax or Zapdos? Also why play OU if the best pokemon is already in OU? Is there something about GSC Ubers that makes it an unfun metagame compared to OU or is it just more of tradition?
I think this is why niche tournaments like uubl are good,because they let these old metagames test things out in a "contained" way.
A random small tourney without both snorlax and zapdos would be good for valuable data tho.
Same with a ho-oh tourney.
If one of these tourneys creates a fun and incredibly healthy metagame that could be sustained for an extended time then,and only then could this be tested out in mainline ou.(and only after further testing and stuff)
Afaik tour players are usually the ones leading the charge on why something in an old gen should/shouldn't be banned and this is usually what they do
The best way I can think to summarize why Lax isn't banned in Gen 2 is one question; would this metagame be better for having banned it? I don't think so, because the Sp. Def. and offensive pressure Lax brings to the table is the only major roadblock keeping the Electrics from slaughtering the entire tier.
You could unban Celebi after to kind of deal with the Electrics defensively, but it would turn the tier into true unmitigated stall wars where the games would go hundreds of turns on a regular basis. Zapdos would almost certainly start slotting in Drill Peck just to get Super Effective damage on it. Leech Seed + Recover on a 100 across the board Pokemon is just too good in a meta where it doesn't have consistent checks.
great video from Bentuky Kried Chicken
Snorlax provides a pretty stabilizing presence to the metagame.
It's because the GSC playerbase decided that the tier is more fun and enjoyable with Snorlax around than without it - it's really that simple. Sure, people like to get into specifics of what constitutes a mon as "healthy" and how Snorlax's versatility and role compression actually opens up teambuilding rather than restricting it...but you really don't need any more of a better reason than that, especially for such an old metagame known for its dearth of options. It's the same reason why DPP Latias got unbanned even though it soft-checks like half of the metagame.
BKC- "Big Kicking chicken"
This video is fire
This video pretty much convinced me that snorlax should be ubered.
Wasn’t expecting a whole video to my comment 😂
I think it comes down to the distinction between the desire for balance and the desire for fun. Snorlax holds the playability of the tier together and makes for a more interesting and enjoyable metagame.
Oh Yes Stall is so enjoyable wish it was the only way to play in all the other tiers
@@zester9073 Then what's stopping you from playing those instead? I mean obviously they have what you want, then.
@@zester9073 Snorlax is what keeps stall from being broken, goofy
I also think getting rid of Snorlax would get rid of a lot of GSC’s identity Snorlax is the best, Pokémon GSC just as much as GSC is dominated by Snorlax
that's like saying banning Salamence in gen 4 OU gets rid of the gen 4 identity.
Yes, but salamence isn’t integral to gen 4 OU identity at least when I think of it the first thing I think of a stealth rock and the lead meta game to me it be more like if deoxys speed got banned from generation 4 Ubers maybe the lead meta game would be far more diverse, but dealing with deoxys Leads is a huge part of the tier and a part of the reason why people find it fun
Best thing to describe is it would be gen 5 ou without the weather wars
i appreciate you BKC
Ahh he days when you could skip youtube ads, i miss those
thank you for this bkc
Snorlax is undoubtedly busted, but the fact that it has a surprisingly high amount of (viable) counterplay that doesn't warp the metagame to an unhealthy state keeps it from being truly banworthy. It's most comparable to melmetal actually (but better obviously).
Wait, ho-oh was once ou in gen 2? Why? Was Lugia?
Crippling rock weakness and STABs that don't work well with its stat spread.
It’s most comparable to ADV Tyranitar.
Despite the analogy with chess queen, the truth is they've gone too far with Snorlax in Gen 2. The whole Gen 2 mechanic was made for him. Rest was a solid choice for Lax even in RBY even though sleep condition was one of the most feared back in the day due to the fact awakening turn didn't allow the user Pokemon to attack. GSC mechanic not only fixed it but also brought an outstanding move for Restallers: Sleep Talk. Besides, Gen 2 provided us with moves that suited Snorlax better than any other Pokemon, like Curse and Belly Drum. Furthermore, the possibility of holding items like Leftovers and Mint Berry in a battle also helps Lax's strategies more than the conventional. And, if it weren't enough, while most of high/top tier Pokemons like Gyarados, Articuno and Cloyster got nerfed during Special stats distribution, GameFreak gifted Snorlax with the most significant boost in this transition, turn his SpDef from 65 to 110. As if his massive HP stats didn't protect him enough against special attackers... (just to make it clear that even Psychic's Alakazam was likely to fail to 3 OHKO Snorlax in Gen 1)
It's perfectly possible to turn him into an amazing competitor without breaking the whole GSC metagame. For the balance's sake, I believe some changes could have been made to fix it:
*1. Snorlax's overall stats:* There is absolutely no reason why Snorlax's stats should be as high as Gyarados' one (540). 480 is good enough. These are the alterations:
• SpAtt: 65 → *50*
• SpDef: 110 → *65*
It might seem too harsh towards him at first, but it's not necessarily true. Back in Gen 1, Snorlax's Special stat was just 65, slightly lower than Tauros'. Despite it, Lax was one of the best special sponge in the game thanks to his massive HP. Even Psychic's Alakazam was likely to fail to 3 OHKO Snorlax Gen 1. The only Pokemons which handled it better that isn't Psychic or legendary thing were Chansey and Vaporeon. Hence, it's safe to say Snorlax would still be a solid wall hard to be knock down. The small decrease in SpAtt is just to prevent Lax's Fire Blast OHKOing necessary threats like Skarmory and Forretress. Besides, the OG status that made Snorlax a powerhouse both Gen 1 remains unchanged.
*2. Curselax:* Almost everything can learn Curse, technique way overused in Gen 2. Restricting it for few Pokemons could improve the overall experience for the GSC metagame. Obviously, the best way to avoid Snorlax running wild is to deny him learning it. It means the only legal way to bring Curselax back is through sweeping or Metronome (good luck). And I tell you in advance that very few sweepers would access Curse - maybe some Pokemons that belong to UU tier, like Girafarig and Mr. Mime, bringing more variety to the game and maybe giving them a strong reason to be somehow considered in the team.
*3. Lovely Kiss:* No Lovely Kiss for Snorlax. His movepool is already very vast. By the way, he isn't sexy enough.
*4. Drumlax and Restallers:* The wildest card left for Snorlax is his combo Belly Drum + Rest, leave alone Sleep Talk. Unlike Curse, it makes sense Lax learns all these moves due to his natural demeanour (fat and sleepy Pokemon). As his OG stats weren't modified, technically nothing was changed here, except now special attackers may actually inflict some damage on him. In a nutshell, Drumlax can still wipe out a whole team on his own with little consequences. So how can we turn Drumlax into a force to be reckoned without breaking the metagame or defying logic? It might be a little risky, but some alterations in GSC metagame could find a interesting balance here:
• (4.1) Rest would recover 75% of HP instead 100%.
• (4.2) Rest cannot be reactivated via Sleep Talk. If Rest was randomly chosen, the user just lost the turn.
• (4.3) Belly Drum can still take 1/2 of maximum HP down even if its Attack stats is at maximum. It would just fail only if the user would faint in the process.
Not necessarily all these options must be applied, but they definitely help to make Drumlax less unwinnable. The first option (4.1) lessens Rest effectiveness. It would still heal more HP than Recover variations, still viable for Snorlax, but it prevents Drumlax's Rest becoming so annoyingly broken. Combining it with the second one (4.2) could definitely push Snorlax down from the god tier since he couldn't heal himself for, at least, 2 turns. And, even if he uses Rest right after, he may not recover all his HP depending on opposing fire power. The third option (4.3) would make the combo Belly Drum + Rest + Sleep Talk way more risky for Snorlax's users since there is 25% of chance to this combo goes south. As Gengar and Misdreavus are secure counters for this Drumlax variant, maybe this option isn't as necessary as the two formers. I'd tend to apply 4.1 and 4.2 options, but the combo 4.2 + 4.3 and all of them just please me as well.
I believe all these changes could offer Gen 2 more balance and variety for the metagame overall. Snorlax would still be a force to be reckoned in the end, but not nearly as indestructible.
Video summary: Yeah it should probably be banned but if we banned Snorlax we'd also probably have to ban Zapdos. Nobody knows what that metagame would be like and GSC doesn't have the player base to effectively suspect test that double ban and, also, despite how busted Lax is the metagame is surprisingly balanced (and likely more interesting than a hyper stall fest that would ensue if he was removed).
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Thing I learned this video is that GSC OU is apparently offensive. That tracks with the few matches I've watched. After hearing secondhand it's stally as is I'd just accepted that.
If I were to propose anything, that would be preparing an alternative metagame like "Modern GSC", so people can try it out and see if it actually works instead of modifying the current GSC metagame entirely. In the end, it is true that this meta lacks people to actively play it and thus could be a meaningless try, but it may be worth a shot to see what it leads to; maybe some pokemon rise in priority in ways never seen before and we could never know :C
GSC OU is just not big enough to split like that.
My response I have always used to this question is that there is actually a tier where Snorlax is banned and enough other things are banned that the metagame is balanced in a less centralized way: It's called UU.
Having read the forums I know the answer is that the meta game is better with him but I could just never see that happening with todays standards where everything has to be principled.
It's also why Landorus Therian is unbannable.
I was curious about the answer to this. I was going to suggest this to you but seems like you beat me too it
Edit:
I have a question, how does a lack of players players playing a metagame make it harder to make change? I would think it’d be the opposite because there is less people involved so the decision making is a lot faster?
less players means it takes more time for the ensuing metagame to develop (which is a problem if there are other problematic aspects rising after the ban, it'll take too long to get to them, metagame festers, nobody's happy)
@@BKCplaysPokemonthat makes sense. Thanks for answering.
So basically, because of the lack of precedent to do it differently, they ended up discovering a much more fun ruleset for those games. I wonder what later gens might have better rulesets that weren't discovered because they didn't start from scratch in the same way.
Celebi or Ho-oh might be "worse", but its not that simple, i don't think.
Everything would have to run HP bug to deal with celebi, otherwise it just doesn't die, its a stalling machine.
It definitely would slow down the game, considerably.
Ho-Oh i don't know much about tbh, guess its hard to switch into, between coverage and burns, and it has great special bulk.
GSC OU offense is centered around Snorlax. A more strongly stall centered metagame would be boring, and generally I find most of the non OU GSC metas (including ubers, where Snorlax's power/wall-breaking runs into the stronger walls of Ubers tier) to be relatively boring and one-paced in comparison.
Being not at all involved in the community side of things with Smogon, I wonder whether an individual or individuals could organise suspect tournaments for things like “GSC with Hooh and Celebi” or “GSC without Snorlax and Zapdos”, or even both those things at once?
an individual or group of individuals would be at perfect liberty to do so, drumming up interest would be another matter (would need a substantial cash prize)
@@BKCplaysPokemon Why would it need a cash prize? Shouldn't there be enough interest among the people still playing to have a for fun tournament?
@@BKCplaysPokemon I was thinking of the way Freezai got so many people interested in Little Cup as a potential model.
That said, perhaps "suspect" is not an appropriate description, as that would imply a large number of experienced and successful players rather than just people like me.
Genuinely asking, isn’t one of Smogon‘s main policies that „without this mon other things would become broken“ is not a vaild point against a ban? Or is this an exception because you don’t want to change such an old metagame (which would be pretty understandable)
A lot of this video kind of meanders around this argument. Snorlax is the exception just because he is.
I'm really not a fan of this logic but I think there is merit to it. Because at the end of the day a laxless meta is going to bring down a cavalcade of other issues that rise up and maybe that period of learning to play around them is too much for players to want to figure out.
~But tbh don't take what I say too seriously. I am a fan of 5th Gen OU's toxic bullshit~
@@CloudyDaze to me as an outsider, Gen 5 seems like a massive rabbit hole. It just feels like they are always banning something every 2-3 weeks and then something new broken approaches that makes the game unplayable
@@gigalodon14 Oh absolutely. The leap in power in Gen 5 is crazy.
I mainly like it because of nostalgia, this being the generation that got me into competitive, but I just also find it fascinating how much a meta can shift with what pokemon can or can't be here.
The idea that it's always volitile kind of makes me always interested. I'm not saying that makes it a good metagame by any stretch. But I find it more interesting.
@@CloudyDaze it was also the first generation I kind of played competitive but not much and I stopped after XY came out.
I think the difference is that Snorlax promotes more "skillful" play whereas other obviously broken Pokemon/mechanics (Garchomp in DPP, Gems in BW, a lot of megas in ORAS, Big Mode in Gen 8, etc) allow you to win more brainlessly. If you are careless with your Snorlax, you can lose it to something like Growl Miltank, or the enemy Snorlax.
broken Pokémon in later gens are more broken because they can abuse power creep
Plus Snorlax is slow, so you can do things to it, whereas a lot of later gen broken mons are speed demons or setup sweepers that 6-0 teams with zero recourse if given a free turn
@@deeznoots6241 snorlax being slow is basically not relevant as a flaw though since nothing is getting through snorlax by itself. Given a free turn, Snorlax will still 6-0 your team if unprepared.
@@tootsie_ sure but at least you can hit it and force it to rest, and just generally not as unfun as getting 6-0’d by something you can’t even touch
Now i wonder how GSC could look like if celebi and ho-oh were unbanned.
just in time for GSCPL
Lax is for sure crazy, i guess it's better to have it as the core of the metagame rather than those who would prey on his absence.
I love Czeska Republika
It doesn't feel broken despite it being required. Since there are multiple check to it that you do not need to go out of your way to incorporate in your team building. Since GSC is insular enough generation.
Any time a pokemon has more than like a 50% pick rate it should be banned to a higher tier. Snorlax has a 99.9% pick rate. There is no legitimate argument for it not to be banned. No other competitive game allows that stuff. As well GSC Snorlax is probably the most overpowered pokemon in history as even stuff like Arceus does not have the same pick rate in ubers. RBY Mewtwo is probably an exception but that was banned.
If suicune (and suicune alone) had calm mind in gsc, would it be the best mon around?
Honestly I wanna see a second gen meta without snorlax xD It could be interesting XD
15:45 wtffffff nidoking used to have morning sun
event move
would GSC benefit from a leftovers clause or a rest talk clause? or is they just “hurr stall generation” nonsense?
Yeah, I will never leave. Unless you have a Pokéflute that is
yo BKC Why did Exeggutor fall of so hard in ADV? Just checked and it isn't even on the viablity rankings and fucking Wailord made it in E Rank, I can't imagine it being THIS bad. Sleeping something and chunking something alse with boom has to be somewhat useful?
Just a question on how ho-oh would slow down the meta. I cam understand with celebi. Ho-oh I thought would be some curse sweeper or something. Like 110 special attack is still nothing to scoff at.
hooh walls nearly everything, has 32 pp recover, sacred fire burns are insane if you don't rest so you gotta sit on it...it'd make things real slow
@@BKCplaysPokemon How do you think Ho-oh would deal with only having 8 sacred fires? It'd lose its fire STAB pretty quick with all the things that run rest. Would it be that potent offensively that 8 is enough?
there are also no good rock attacks in the game
Skarmory, Growl Miltank, Misdreavus, Machamp
A key difference between rby tauros and gsc snorlax is tauros only really used one set.
Tell me why im ok with snorlax in gsc but ABSOLUTELY TIRED of lando in every single gen since its release
I'm gonna guess it's because Snorlax fell off afterwards and Lando keeps hanging around forever. I don't know the ways people try to play around Lando, either, it might actually be more broken, or more predictable (Snorlax has a lot of potential sets with different weaknesses so there is some variety there) or something.
I think Gen 2 meta would be more fun if every legendary (including Entei, Raikou and Suicune) and Snorlax be banned. Meta would be more dynamic.
Has Smogon ever banned anything that is a slow set up Pokemon that wasn't banned because it was good on stall or had a priority move? Maybe hoopaU?
Magearna running stuff like shift gear/iron defense/calm mind?
@@spencerhorne5627 magearna was hardly slow, it could just blow through teams just by spamming really powerful attacks and getting buffs plus it was probably used on stall
Kevin, is there anything we can do for you to get more frequent uploads? Your videos are like crack and i go through withdrawals between uploads
Uploaded 1 min ago lets gooooo
Did they ever thought of banning Rest + Sleeptalk?
I mean if banning Lax and Zapdos makes Blissey broken then ban blissey too right?
How hard is it to make another tier? We could have a modern OU tier and a classic OU tier.
it shakes up a lot of metagames
That feels like it would needlessly split the player base. Like, would there be consistent ladders for both? Which one would be played in multi-gen tournaments like Smogon Classic? Which one’s the “real” Gen 2 OU? The point of OU is that it’s the “standard” tier. Separating the tier into 2 completely goes against the entire point of OU
I'm not sure enough people actually play GSC for that.
6:45 why'd that vap not sleep