LumaDent Ergoprism Review - Best Loupes for Ergonomics?
Vložit
- čas přidán 8. 07. 2024
- Lumadent's Ergoprism is a great set of loupes, and after spending some time with them, I have some specific thoughts. These frames are INCREDIBLE and the optics are precise and clear.
However, depending on your own workflow, there may be a learning curve with these deflection loupes, especially if you have some bad habits.
I think these loupes are the real deal, and LumaDent knocked it out of the park with this product - however, if you have any doubts, you may want to try to do a demo if you can. If there is not a rep in your area, LumaDent does offer a 45 day risk-free trial - so that is also an option.
Time Stamps:
0:00 Intro
0:26 Price and Quality
1:26 Who Should Consider Ergoprisms
2:48 Versatility vs. Ergonomics
3:48 Reported Issues (Comments and Other Reviews)
6:52 TLDR Summary
9:11 Big Announcement!
Dope T-shirts: thelouped.com
First Ergoprism Video: • LumaDent ERGOPRISM Lou...
Have these myself! I love them! My assistants think I look a little crazy staring at the wall. I am only 2 years out, so my lack of significant time with bad habits has let me adapt quickly. I would not however suggest starting dental school with the loupes. I think that it would be really hard to be forced into the indirect vision. Lastly, It took significant effort to get the loupes in just he right spot. I needed to have a rep help me bend the frames, and they were sent back to Arizona once. Keep up the videos. I tell all my IU dental students that come through my clinic on rotations to check you out. Because of the lack or reviews on the loupes I am excited to see you do a video on them, and am excited to see if your channel gets a lot more followers.
Thank you so much Chase! I agree completely, these loupes take a lot more precision to get the fit right - to the point there is a very specific spot on the bridge of my nose where they need to sit for me to get the full FOV.
I think you are right, it would be super hard to force yourself into indirect vision day one of dental school on top of everything else you need to learn. It is really great to hear your perspective working with students - I worked with students for a year at my first job in public health and I really do miss it.
Keep it up! You really are helping a lot of people with your videos :)
Thanks Sam!!
I was really intrigued by these when I was shopping for loupes. I use a lot of direct vision so I'm glad I went with something else. If I was fresh out of school, these would have been my go to.
WOW an awesome and wonderful channel, great contents. keep up the good work !
Thank you Yasin!!
It would be awesome if you do a hands on video using the loupes, for example a day at the clinic with actual patients and procedures! Thanks for the review Doc!
Thank you Liusvanis!
I use Q-Optics Ergo loupes and I find myself shining my loupe light into my patient's eyes when I try to use my direct vision by looking down briefly to check the teeth. That sure didn't happen when I had traditional loupe! Other than the fact that I have to use different loupe for surgery or removable procedures, I'm growing into my Ergo loupe!
As you mentioned this prism design has credibility for sure. This prism design was originally made in Japan over a decade ago. I talked with a rep when they told me their patent design expired and are trying to bring it to the US. In Japan it became some what popular among dr who do use loupes. A lot of old school japanese dentists actually don’t use loupes! Lol
Thank you so much for checking out this video! Just FYI, someone left a comment mentioning Andau loupes that was later deleted (CZcams may have flagged it because it contained external links, which sometimes read as spam). To the poster of that comment: if you did not intend to delete it, please feel free to repost it without the links, it may stick. I love the discussion in the comments, even if it disagrees with something I said in the video.
From what I have seen, Andau is the closest thing to the Ergoprsim out there. I do not know specific prices (as they are not published on the website) other than I know one person specifically who bought the 7.5x for around $4300, and the lead time for those was a couple of months in that one instance. But the technology looks very similar to Ergoprism.
Here you go! This time without links to the Andau Medical website.
The Ergo loupes by Admetec from Andau Medical are only similar to the ErgoPrism in the way that the ocular is bent at a 60 degree angle in order to provide an ergonomic, neutral working position. That is where the similarities end. Andau provides an ergonomic loupes solution that has magnification options 3.0x-7.5x (Lumadent only goes to 5.0x). Andau's loupes provide a much larger field of view and their depth of field is considerably greater (therefore no need for an adjustable ocular for working distance - which people have experienced loosening over time - also who has time to adjust both sides to work in unison??)
Andau Medical has Reps all over the US and Canada so you get great local customer service in helping you demo, measure, and most importantly provide post-delivery support!
So, check out the Ergo loupes with Andau Medical...they're lower in cost, large range of magnifications 3.0x to 7.5x, short lead time, high-quality with incredible optics, large field of view and depth of field, provide incredible ergonomics, local Reps providing in-person support, 90-Day Trial.
Go to their website (AndauMedical dot com) and in their contact section you can be connected to your local rep.
@@MissTeacherCreature Hello i am looking admetec loupes too but i have a few question if you can answer i would be more than happy, what is your thoughts about dental surgery or implant surgery with this kind of declination loupes and 6.0x or 7.5 x would be best for everyday dentistry i am using 2.5 keeler Now and want to upgrade i know this kind of loupes arent 7.5 x or 6.0x because of distance so 7.5x Near 6x magnification can i use 7.5 for tooth preperation or implant Dentistry?
@@ozancubuk8054 Yes, the 6.0x and the 7.5x are the mag of choice that all our Dentists performing surgical procedures are using.
If you let me know where you are located I can have a local rep reach out so you can experience the different magnifications to make the best choice for your individual needs.
Super excited to see more dental content on CZcams! I’m a D1 student and was thinking about getting these loupes to get good posture and habits right away. Is the learning curve for indirect vision steep? Also in your video you did mention a narrower FOV. How much of a difference is it to other brands with expanded prismatic lenses (i.e Q optics)?
I know it’s a lot of questions but for future proofing and making my time as a student less challenging, would you recommend the 4.3X over the 5.0 that you’re currently using? Keep up the videos!
Thanks Ethan!
Honestly, for most people I would think starting out with a conventional loupe would be ideal. You have so much to learn in terms of using the mirror, patient positioning, etc., I think learning with conventional loupes might be easier. But that is just my opinion, others might disagree.
Personally, I wouldn’t use anything lower than the 5.0, but I think you could get away with 4.3 Ergoprism if you are used to 2.5 or 3.5 standard loupes.
The field of view doesn’t bother me, but some people might prefer an expanded field.
If you have a rep nearby, and can demo anything before you buy that’s probably ideal. But I also would be shy about buying something basic now and another pair later on too. I would always prefer to have at least 2 sets anyway so there is always a backup.
Also, no matter what you get, I would budget for a light. I love Lumadent’s lights, the price is great and I have been using them for years.
Great video. Really informative. Helped tip me toward making the purchase. I would be interested to see a video on patient and doc positioning with these loupes vs conventional. I’m loving them for maxillary procedures but struggling a little to get comfortable on the mandible. Any tips you’ve gathered along the way would be appreciated!
Hey Spencer, that is awesome, thank you for the feedback! I noticed the same problems you were describing, and I know when people start working in a microscope they also experience the same thing-it is harder to work in the lower. I found a couple CZcams videos if you just Google “microscope dentistry positioning or something like that. It looks like one of the keys might be staying about 12 o’clock, but really turning the patient’s head more than I am used to.
I'm a dental student and I recently got my 4.3 Ergoprisms. I finally found time to try them on today and I agree in terms of build quality, they feel very well made. I'm a D2 and decided to get these on my classmate's recommendation. She's been using them and she acknowledged that there is a learning curve for sure but that they are super comfortable and will protect your neck and back. All my other classmates who are hunched over are having to deal with the strain from poor ergonomics. Up until now I'd been using some homemade loupes that I built from a pair of cheapo Amazon 3.5x adjustable flip-ups that I screwed n' glued to a pair of my extra rx glasses. Those work well enough for figuring out what magnification I liked but they have a declination angle and I wanted something for my neck. I suspect I may need to do that thing you mentioned with the lenses to adjust my IPD but I'm really excited to try these out in lab and see how they work. Everybody who's gotten them in my school raves about them.
Robert, that is awesome to hear. I also have a cheap pair of loupes exactly like you are describing (I made them out of some safety glasses and cheap 2.5x clip-ons). Thanks so much for sharing your experience with your loupes, and good luck with the rest of D2!
Have you looked into doing a review for the designs for vision Infinity veu? I'd be interested to see what the pros and cons are of those ones in comparison.
Wow I did not know those existed, thank you for sharing! I said in one of the other videos that other loupe companies were probably going to start selling deflection loupes, and it looks like that is definitely happening.
The only thing I noticed about the DFV is that they only come in 3.0 or 3.5x. That would be a deal breaker for me in a deflection loupe.
Hello thanks for the review, what is your thoughts about dental surgery or implant surgery with this kind of declination loupes?
Hello! I'm a D1 looking into my first pair of loupes and highly considering these from Lumadent, because I already have some back/neck pain and posture problems (I've been seeing a chiropractor for). I really appreciate your video clarifying a lot of the details I've thought about, but not really been able to find others discussing! And also thank you for mentioning the pro's and con's for dental students as well. :D But I'm stuck between the two sides (you also mentioned in the video) of being able to more quickly adjust to ergo prisms from the get-go as a student without further worsening my posture problems (and entering what will likely become the future of loupes), and the physical awkwardness/challenges I'll face as a beginning student still learning how to see in a patient's mouth and position myself with the basics of pre-clinical operative. For example, a D2 mentor mentioned to me that as rookies/pre-clinical, our indirect vision may get compromised with mirrors getting water droplets on them (and no assistant to help keep things dry) so they often have to rely on angling their heads and using direct vision to look into the mouth, which would be much weirder to do with an Ergoprism facing down vs the standard loupes. So because of that, I've heard some people recommend standard loupes for starting out and then switching to Ergoprisms, but that kind of defeats the advantage of adjusting to Ergoprisms from the beginning. I haven't started any sort of pre-clinical operative at my school yet, so I also have no way of knowing what my habits are or what tricky angles I'd have to do with my mannequin (but I kinda need to have my loupes ready for day 1 of that, despite no way of knowing what I need for how I work). So, I want to build good posture habits from now and protect my physical health, but I'm also afraid of the unknown and potentially adding more challenges than I already have as a total rookie learning everything, plus potential regret from seeing I spent ~$900 more to create for myself more challenges most of my classmates (using standard loupes) may not face, making dental school already harder than it is. My alternative is to go with standard Galileans from Q-Optic (which I like except for the fact they're not as ergonomic for my back/neck pain as Ergoprisms, but also still a good company for ergonomics), and a dentist mentor told me as long as I get the steepest angle allowable from Q-Optic (as she has done), my posture shouldn't be detrimentally affected. But again, it seems the Ergoprism is still more fool-proof for neck/back pain than standard loupes, which is useful to me because I seem to be experiencing more pain and posture issues while waxing than my peers. It's a mess to decide between them, especially because the student discount Lumadent has for us expires in a couple weeks, but I have at least figured out I'm getting my light from Lumadent! haha. Sorry for the long comment, but I appreciate any extra tips and insight you have for my situation. Thank you. And I'm excited to see future videos as well! ;)
Hi Sarah, thank you so much!
I know what the D2 is saying about getting water on your mirror, and having to lean in instead of using indirect vision, but you don't have to do that. I catch myself doing it too, but if you use a good mirror and have your assistant keep your mirror clean with air/water as you prep, you can use indirect vision for everything. If you think of the dentists who do everything under a microscope they have to use the mirror, there is no option to lean in.
It is almost impossible to "lean in" like the with the ergoprism, it is just to different of an angle.
I think your plan of possibly going with a steeper declination angle standard loupe might be a good plan, because you are doing the same thing as your classmates, and it will probably help your back at least a little bit. If your chiropractor can give you some stretches or exercises, that is probably even better.
I would never feel bad about spending money on loupes. I still use loupes I bought 14 years ago, and now have two more sets of loupes. So you could always decide to get standard loupes now and ergoprisms later and maybe switch back and forth. I love using the ergoprisms for anteriors, but I still haven't mastered posteriors with them yet, mostly because I fall back into bad habits when we are busy. If I had back pain, though, no question I would learn it.
I would honestly just demo a couple different loupes you are thinking of and go from there, I really don't think you will go wrong with either, and have heard great things about Q Optics if you end up going that direction.
Last thing I would say is don't worry about making a decision just because a company is running a special. Sometimes the reps will even honor those specials after they expire, and even if you end up paying full price it's worth it if it takes that time to make the right decision.
Good luck!
Thank you so much! This made me feel a lot better about the minute details I've been thinking about and considering for such a big decision as my first loupes. I decided I now feel confident going with the Ergoloupes from the get-go (after also meeting with a rep again), and I couldn't have felt more comfortable about it without your video and response. Thanks, I appreciate it!@@BeyondDentistry
That’s great!! I think you will really like them.
I’m not sure I’ve ever clicked faster on a video. Great video, Doc. I’m thinking about getting into a pair of loupes in a few years that I use mostly for endo only. I want a high magnification and I really like the idea of having a super ergonomic pair of loupes that can help me stay straight in long endo procedures. Also, when I prep #30, I do it exactly how you described and I’m wondering what other method there is to see the lingual other than turning the patient’s head toward you and looking directly. Are we doing it wrong? Amazing video, Adam, and the shirt looks awesome 😉
Thanks so much, Stephen!!!
I should have clarified in the video - I don't think there is anything wrong with using direct vision for #30 (I will have to check the Sturdevant book though lol). But I tend to hunch in Waaaaayy too much and bend in almost in front of the patient. Man, I have some bad habits!
@@BeyondDentistry It definitely makes me think about the habits I'm currently forming! Often we feel so rushed to get through assignments in lab that we will take any steps necessary. And that means sacrificing good posture at times. Definitely something to think about!!
Interesting to hear how you guys prep linguals of #30, I may have to try that. My go-to method has been to get at the 12 or even 1 o'clock position (ignore the assistant's glare), have Pt turn to the right a bit, take over tongue retraction with a mirror, and direct vision prep that way. It has worked well for me, and has the added bonus of safer tongue retraction IMO since I can immediately feel if the patient even starts thinking about wrapping their tongue around my bur.
Nice! I’m trying this next lower right crown.
@@BeyondDentistry let me know how it compares for you. Should go without saying, but I do the same position for interproximal/buccal of lower left.
I have the orascoptic xv1. Absolutely amazing having light built into the glasses with no wires. Having batteries in the back of the frame balance the extra weight in the front making it super comfortable. When your batteries run out you take your charged ones and charge the dead ones.. never run out of light. And I also prep like you! I look down at times using direct vision, just point my light down a bit and use direct vision for certain parts of my preps. Amazing loupes if anyone hates cords with the light! Great videos by the way keep it up!
Thank you! I had not thought of that, but I bet it is huge to have the weight balanced like that. I did buy Lumadent's wireless light - it works really well, but only stays charged for half of the day, which I am not used to (honestly, I get close to 2 days out of the Lumadent wired pack, and it is 5 years old). The XV1 looks like a sweet set of loupes.
Thank you so much for this review! I am a dental student and im thinking of buying these loupes as my first pair. Im concerned about the learning curve but am thinking that if I get them now, I will have to force myself to learn with them and will eventually get used to the drawbacks. I see you don't recommend this option in another one of your comments but my biggest concern has been my posture since I do already have some back pain which is why i'm thinking of buying these. Do you think that is a reasonable idea? Also- how do you feel about the 3.3x vs the 4.3x lumadents? Im trying to be cost conscious as well because they are a $500 difference in price.
Thank you for checking out the review! If you can get in touch with a rep, that would be idea, but you can also talk to a rep over the phone and get some advice.
I personally would not like the 3.3 and I think you might wish you had gotten a higher magnification. I think if you are used to working with a 2.5-3x right now, I would probably go with the 4.3 lumadents. But if you are used to using a 3.5 or higher now, you might want to consider the 5.0. I really does "feel" like the magnification is a lot less than what is listed, I have heard that from almost everybody that has tried these loupes.
As far as back pain - that is probably the main reason I would consider these loupes. I think you will really like the design just for back pain. Another thing that really helped with my back pain was getting into some kind of a fitness routine, or even stretching every day.
Man I think I know what my second pair of loupes before I'm out of school may be now 👀
One Mission DMD Thanks for checking out the video!! I wish I had had these earlier in my career for sure!
May I have the link for this loup? And may I ask the price ?
HI there, I'm a dental student and wanted to thank you for your reviews!
With regards to the telescopes being in the middle of the lens (obstructing your vision when talking to a patient sitting upright in their chair for example) isn't it possible to simply position the frames lower on your nose when needed and and then push them back up when you're ready to resume whatever you were doing in their mouth? Hope that makes sense. Thanks!
Hey Alex! I think that could definitely work to some extent, but if you position them low like that, you might end up with the top of the frame obstructing your field of view. It is not a big deal to take the loupes off talking to patients.
For me, it is more of an issue if you need to look around to grab instruments during the procedure or something like that.
Hi very informative video. I had finally the occasion to try both the adamtec ergo loupes 5.0X and the Pentax prism vue 5.0X, unluckily the ergoprism are still not distribuited in Italy i've decided to buy the Pentax:
Advantages
The optic quality was way better than the adamntec ones, bigger field of view, longer and adjustable working distance, better luminosity.
Since they are not TTL and completely adjustable i can resell them.
Not having a frame around the oculars i can look around (like under the oculars) very easily.
Disadvantages
Biggest one, they are incredible expensive, i've got them for 4160€ benefiting from a reduced VAT (4%) buying them with corrective lenses (removable)
A bit on the heavy side (a bit more than 100g), but still confortable for me since the weight is well distribuited.
That is awesome! I actually love the Pentax design because I do not wear glasses at work. I would like to see somebody bring that design here to the states.
Ciao Alessandro, Italiano anch'io e anch'io in cerca di un sistema di ingrandimento simile...potresti indicare per favore dove hai acquistato il tuo sistema?
Grazie!!
@@telemario85
Ciao Mario, li ho acquistati da MAF project di Alessandro Magnifico ad Ascoli Piceno.
What do you think about the lack of eye protection with these ergoprism loupes? With face normal shields, they kind of stick out a bit and you’re eyes are still exposed. You’re also not leaning forward, so the glasses don’t really protect your eyes. Do these loupes have any shields that snap on the bottom?
I am really big on infection control, and I honestly don't worry too much about it.
If your eye doesn't have a direct line to the operative field, the likelihood of taking a piece of debris in your eye is pretty low, as is the likelihood of droplet exposure. Even with my normal face shield from ultralight seems to provide enough protection.
Also, there is a company called Z Shield that makes a shield you wear around your neck (so the plastic is directly between you and the patient). I have not tried it, but I have heard good things.
Please could you review other pentaprism based offerings - Admetec "Ergo" and Bryant Dental "Refractives" Would be great to hear your thoughts
I wish I had access to these! It looks like a similar concept (roof prism). You could always call the company and ask to talk to somebody. Costumer service is incredibly important with loupes, because sometimes they need adjustments and you don't want to be left hanging if you need anything! I would say whatever you decide to do, consider going with a company that has a really good record of customer service!
@@BeyondDentistry Hi! Feel free to talk to us :)
@@BeyondDentistry have you talked to Admatec?
Looking for input on magnification. I’m a hygienist. Currently have traditional loupes in 2.5x. I very often lean in, I think just because I feel like I want to to be able to see better. For this reason, I do want to get something that is more magnified than my traditional 2.5x loupes.
Has anyone has gone from 2.5x to the ergoprisms in a 4.3 (which says is like 3.5/4.0 for trad. loupes).
Wondering if Ergoprism 4.3 seems the same as traditional 2.5 or if it seems more magnified.
Hi Tammala,
I think the best way to go would to connect with a rep if you can. I do think you would be fine with 4.3 - literally everybody I have heard from feels like the magnification is a lot smaller than is listed.
My Ergoprism 5.0 "feels" like a 3.5-4.0. I know that is a little bit subjective, but I would bet you would be disappointed if you went lower than 4.3. Good luck!
3rd year dental student here.Considering buying a pair of these loupes soon. One of my concerns is the eye protection that the loupes provide. Has that been an issue for you? I don’t know if infection control at my school would be very fond of the gap that may be there when treating patients.
Hey Brian! Lumadent lets you try the frames, so you could always see what a protection as like. Personally, I started using a face shield and will never go back. When you see what ends up on the face shield after a messy crown appointment, you might not want to ever go back to just loupes lol
@@BeyondDentistry what face shield do you use?
@@bansehnaeim3262 I like the shields from Ultralight. They sell extensions, so if your loupes have large telescopes, you can still get them to fit.
what was that adjustment your rep told you to do when you thought ur ipd was off?
He had me bend the telescopes together a little bit so the field of view was a little bit more convergent. Your rep should definitely be able to help!
Are aliexpress dental loupes x3.5 worth it ?
Usually, you get hat you pay for with loupes. If they are cheap, they might make good backups!
It's too bad they don't have reps in Canada. I actually found a comparable company (Admetec/Andau) in Canada that go up until 7.5X. I ordered those and can't wait to get them! This is coming from a 2.5x flip-ups currently! Just realized how much I like to see EVERYTHING!!! (It's actually more like a 5x TTL). Same price as Lumadent as well, with a wider field of view and longer depth of field for the same working distance
That's great, I have heard really good things about that Andau as well. You are exactly right, for some reason with this style of loupes, the magnification seems like so much less than the stated.
How do you like the Andau/Admetec loupes?
@@BeyondDentistry I think the reason for that is because you're staying further back which means you lose 1-2 factors of magnification. They do tell you about this so I was prepared for it.
@@triciaskiles I'm just finishing my 2nd week with them and have to say that the 7.5X magnification is amazing! You have to adjust them a lot more though, and I mean A LOT more! They are a highly customized product to you, and since we're all unique, you really have to tweak them a lot to make them work. For example, you will find yourself twisting the nose-pads very much to make them sit right, then the working distance is measured for you and hopefully they got it right, then the interpupillary distance is also measured by the rep and is custom to you, and if you have a prescription this is also added (understandably), and finally, the arms of the glasses have to be bent quite a bit until they keep the glasses in the perfect spot so you can see through the loupes (fun fact, not everybody's ears are at the same height - SURPRISE!). So yeah, lots of tweaking, but once you hone it into your specs, it's truly AMAZING to literally see the open margins between the restorations and the teeth. And even if your magnification is lower, the ergonomics is a game changer. The biggest surprise is I was not so tired at the end of the day. Bad ergonomics are exhausting - go figure!
@@alinrusu678 thank you so much for the feedback! Wow 7.5! I'm in a 4.5 now and have had a demo with the Andau rep. Very impressed! Use Orascoptic now and love them but def want the prism option, can't wait!!
I have a demo with Lumadent on Tuesday.
Are you still using these ? Wondering what your experience has been after using them for a year or so.
Hey DrFarinx!
IMO, these are still the best loupes for posture, and my back feels noticeably better after using them. However, still use my DFV 4.5s most of the time, but that is probably specific to me:
- I really prefer my (Lumadent) wired light because I can get a couple of days out of it without changing the battery (using it only for ops, I do exams without the light). I did buy the wireless light to use with the Ergoprisms, but noted that it only lasted a few hours and wasn't as bright. I can use the wired light with the Ergroprisms, but I find the wire a little more awkward because the loupes are so light.
- Ergoprisms work much better if you can work at 12 oclock. My ops are set up for side delivery and I usually work from 9 or 10 oclock. I know I have terrible posture and that is not ideal.
- Nothing I have tried has as wide of FOV at 4.5 as my DFVs. The brightness of the wired light and the wider field of view makes me gravitate back to my old loupes. Honestly, though if I bought a microscope I bet it would be the same experience. I have been doing it one way for so long, it is just hard to change your workflow.
That being said, these loupes make upper anteriors a lot more fun. If I didn't have a pair I would still probably get some.
Does Lumadent make a light that works with these?
Absolutely, they have a wireless light and a battery pack/wired option which I currently use. If you are looking at these loupes, I would definitely budget for a light as well!
Actually, the question on everyone's mind was WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN
Hahahaha fair enough!
I just bought these. Tried them out over the last few days. Sending them back for refund. They are probably great for endodontists but I found them impossible to use as a general dentist. The learning curve was way too steep for me to use. The frames were comfortable though.
Curious how these would be for a hygienist?
Hi Angie! I think they would be about the same for a hygienist as a they are for dentists - I bet some hygienists would love these, but if you tend to move around a lot and hunch over, they might take some getting used to. It might actually be a little bit easier if you don't change instruments a lot during the procedure (for example, use ultrasonic for most things). For sure, if you use these loupes you would definitely want a light.
Do you feel like the light is still able to shine everywhere in the mouth just as well with your head facing forward and not at the patient?
Absolutely, all you have to do is tip the light down, and it works the same as any other loupes system.
Lumadent actually sells the same light for everything they make, standard loupes and ergoprisms
Worst lens and materials " LUMADENT ERGOPRISM" , they fracture multiple times, and they ask money to repair it in spite of the mentioned lifetime warranty.