Massive Improvement of Roadholding: Adjusting Toe, Camber and Caster (Porsche 911, 1987)
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- čas přidán 22. 09. 2021
- After this winter's restoration of my Porsche 911 Carrera 3.2 from 1987 I continued using it intensively over the year whereas increasingly some lack of directional stability and asymmetric steering behavior began to annoy me.
Tires were brand new and the rear suspension had been adjusted with great care by myself, therefore suspicion fell on the front suspension and steering geometry which I hadn't taken care of before.
In this video I'm adjusting the height of the car as well as toe angle, camber and caster of the front axle with the most basic, traditional means of a workshop.
Many of the techniques I'm relying on in this video I learned from master mechanic Robert, the owner of
www.rs-classic-garage.de
#porsche911 #classicporsche #restoration
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Here's the link to the shirt shop:
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At 12:18 I say that caster was 0.8 degrees which is of course wrong. I mean 8 degrees.
Love this episode. As with all your videos, a difficult task was made easy with patience, care, and skill. My first Porsche was a 1983 911 SC Coupe in Guards Red. Your beautiful Carrara brings back some very fond memories. Thank you.
Thanks, Lester. Do you still own a 911 today?
After the 911 SC, I traded into a Carrera Supersport Cabriolet. After 18 months, I then really stretched myself and traded into a beautiful Forest Green Carrera 2 Coupe. After 8 months of wonderful ownership, my wife announced she was pregnant. And, this is where my privileged membership of the 911 ownership club ended. There is something unique about a 911, especially the early models - they work themselves into your soul.
So that was you the hooligan riding around the roundabout!
😆😆😆
Love the marker over video.
Analog over digital.
Thank you so much for putting thought and effort into these videos.
Can’t wait to see the Alfa again.
Thank you. The Giulia is already on the lift.
I had discovered this green screen feature in my editing tool some weeks ago and I was just waiting for an opportunity to use it.
Mahalo!
Always look forward to your videos!
Excellent content.
Much appreciated!
I for one am happy to see you give a little free publicity to those obscure british auto-journalists. If only other content creators would show as much love to the little guys.
What you mean, Andy? I don’t get it …
One of the best videos on this! Thanks so much.
Thanks, Gary!
I came across a targa that loves to eat the inside of the front tires and after i checked, sure enough, the goop on the struts is still there.
Now to go dig this stuff up 🔨
All the best for your project!
A really an authentic enthusiastic Porsche driver ! Well done 👍🏻 !!😍
Thank you, Alejandro! 😊
Thank you for putting together this tutorial for us DIYers. Your work in the garage & on film is inspirational.
Thanks, mate. I actually never have the intention to make tutorials, but I recognize that it's where I'm ending up.
Excellent work!thank you for the video!
Thank you, Pantelis.
Thank you again. A wonderful video and a very clear and educational exposé. Many happy kilometers!
Thanks, Sjoerd. 😊
That was extremely informative, thank you very much.
Very welcome.
Very helpfull, I am in the process of doing this myself, so much information available for the 911, designed to be worked on. Cheers
You'll not recognize your car afterwards. The effects make a huge difference it the way it feels.
Fantastic Video, your channel is top notch!
Thank you, Thierry!
Another brilliant video. Thanks for sharing your journey.
Thanks for the feedback, James. Much appreciated.
I learned something today ! Of course to do it myself need some practice ... but thanks for showing it this way .
Thanks, Steven. Glad you liked it!
Glad I found your channel! Once I finish rebuilding the engine on my 996 I'm going to tackle this next! Cheers!
Cheers!
It gave me waves of joy when I first took it out with the new set-up and realised how much better it handled.
🤞🏼for the 996 engine rebuild …
@@GreasyFingers Thanks! I'm also doing some rust repair, much like you did. If you have a moment, please check it out (latest video). I haven't started the welding yet, still learning.
I love all your videos, but this one is the best of them all. Awesome. German engineering education pays off.
German engineering education and some blind faith. 😀
Wonderful video, I'm starting this project in the next few weeks -- your video makes it feel much less terrifying, thanks.
Cool, fingers crossed!
More excellent content. I have completed a basic string alignment for my C4S and it’s time consuming but satisfying. May I apologize for actually falling asleep during this one. Your voice is so mellow and then there is the music :-) I promise I will do better next time.
Thanks, David. It’s an official goal of the channel to make relaxing content so you only fulfilled my expectations. 😌
Very educational. thank you
Glad it was helpful!
When I was a young kid I was afraid of monsters that might be under my bed at night and get me when I was asleep. As I got older that was not a thought that ever came up. BUT when people now talk about toe, camber, caster, corner balancing and car alignment I feel a little fearful.
After seeing many of your videos I felt more confident that learning about car corrections/improvements I would not get terrified; maybe a little scared but not terrified. It is because you present things simple as simple can be for understanding. You don’t dance around with BIG fancy words or phrases and your video shots help me to see what people need to see to understand a new car topic we might only know partially or not at all.
I am lucky to have a genius mechanic Dan who can fix anything. He has a tiny, tiny shop with a lift and LOTS of clients waiting for their turn with the magic mechanic. He just replaced all of my suspension bushings with new or better (I saw your video on that topic -THANKS so much), Elephant Racing brakes upgrade kit, which had Zimmerman rotors X-drilled, 1990 Boxster 4 piston calipers -original Carreras had 2 - and half again larger sized calipers; and a lot of other things but this is your video; I am just sharing with you and others examples showing that I am following along with Mr. Fingers’ thoughts and actions.
YES to not taking your car to some shop with the laser equipment and no soul. Luckily when the snow is not snowing on the mountain passes here (1 April) I will be driving my P-car up to the top of our state - Portland, Oregon - from the bottom of the state where we live (5 hour + drive) to get exact alignments and corner balancing after all the changes done by Dan. The shop is Rothsport and they might use lasers but they are tried and proven experts on racing suspensions, alignments/corner balancing (and regular cars too). They also are motor builders -they make engines for Guntherwerks, Emory Motorsports, and for you and me. Jeff (the owner) and his team are the real deal. I mention all of these people and places because if you don’t do the work yourself you really have to do some extensive research to find good workers to make sure they don't fkup your P-car. Research, listen and ask questions at Coffee and octane gatherings, for example.
Am I afraid of what I mentioned above after your video? No I am not.
“A garage without a Porsche is just a dark hole” -Walter Rohrl - Porsche Development
Thanks for another extensive comment, Jim. Such a pleasure to read. Two more months and we can take them out again …
Being disappointed in the alignment shop seems to becoming a bit of an epidemic. As a previous tech myself, I have seen the shoddy work first hand, and as a result now later in life- I applaud you your DIY mentality and finding a solution on your own. Not only learning/understanding the dynamic, but creating your own tooling to get the job done correctly, A++.
Thanks!
I really could blow out an epic rant about this topic.
Self-appointed 911 specialist who, at the end of the day, sell you tartan seats, a mediocre new paint job and a couple of nice fotos, but they can’t even spell the word caster.
I’m tempted to publish the names, but I get a grip on myself. 😁
Sehr schönes Video!
Bin auf die Hinterachse gespannt! Habe diesen Sommer erst mit den Drehstäben meines 75 gekämpft, damit der für künftige "Is it any good?" Videos bereit steht..
Danke, Luca. Ich freue mich schon drauf! 😃
Amazing! Ty for the encouragement =) for real!
Do it! 😃
Super gemacht mit einfachen Hilfsmitteln. Als Student habe ich solche Vermessungen auch mit Dachlatten, Schnur, Meterstab und Wasserwage gemacht. Bei sorgfältiger Arbeit gibt das wirklich ziemlich genaue Ergebnisse. Respekt!
Thanks, Gerhard!
Great video, sir!
Thanks, mate!
Nice work buddy!
Thanks, mate!
Thanks for this video , I need this
tutorial when I have finished welding
my left front suspension rust issue
You‘re welcome, Hannu.
I’d love to see your project. Is it somewhere on the web?
@@GreasyFingers Not in the web, I can send some pics when get further in repair
Gut gemach! Freudlischer Grussen aus Kanada!
Great video explaining what to set and how to do it. Unfortunately I don't have a flat floor in my garage
Thanks, Neil.
A flat floor in fact is essential.
Gut gemacht! Freudlischer Grussen aus Kanada!
Danke, Aziz. Grüße zurück! ☺️
Bought a new '76 530i with poor panic braking at 50mph on the highway. Impossible to stop immediately due to caster off considerably. Finally got the zone BMW man to a Houston BMW dealer
for a tech adjustment. He put 5 washers on the front left suspension as I could see the addition. Took the car out for a braking test and it still would lose control at 50mph with a heavy foot on the brake as the car rear end would start to come around on a level stretch of highway. Apparently the front suspension mountings were no correct at the factory and Mr. BMW was not willing to go further. Neither was I and I sold the car at 9 months. 3 EGR valves, one two piece drive shaft and rubber coupling, lots of over heated spark plug-fowling, rusted out gas tank, out of balance original tires (dealer jacked up a new car and gave me those better tires), air conditioning could not keep up with Houston summers-vinyl seats made me uncomfortable, car had a miss at idle and it was not the mass air sensor. Sold the car. No more BMW's for me.
Hi Vincent, yeah, sometimes they just drive you crazy. 😤
Hammer!
Like? 😀
@@GreasyFingers Logisch! Übersteigt meine Fähigkeiten und Möglichkeiten leider
Excellent work. Congrats .I like the gauge you built-great idea. I've never done suspension tuning-its remained on my skills to master so this is a brilliant example. I'm always building on a budget so I'm not installing adjustable coilovers-just standard replacement shocks. Any chance of you doing a suspension tuning episode or series on Alfas-105 series? Thanks again
Thanks, Steve.
Certainly I will do an according vid about the Giulia. I also recommend the channel Rafa's Garage to you. He has done some good films about restoring the suspensions.
@@GreasyFingers Excellent tip! New to me and appreciated
Well reasoned, laid out and documented via video. Now, can I apply it, in my garage? Where are you, confidence?
(Thanks for this)
Go for it, Bob. It can't go wrong really.
Excellent vidéo which is a bit ancient Greek for me but I am sure it make sense. Stéphane
You know what? You can learn Ancient Greek in a week. It’s not half as difficult as I thought.
@@GreasyFingers I need to start from scratch , any book or whatever to start with ?
@@Steph-iw3hr You mean regarding wheel geometry? I think the wiki article to „vehicle dynamics“ contains all you need to know. Especially if you follow the links to the sub-articles of „Suspension and steering“.
@@GreasyFingers you' ve got it . thanks johannes
To get these cars to handle great they have to be corner balanced. To do this you need easy adjustability. I also lowered the car, but did it properly, by not changing the angle of the tie rods. I used Fox Racing Shocks, which take the place of the compete strut and spindle. Spindle height can be adjustable, to keep the suspension in the proper operating range. I also used a real bump steer kit, not just spacers under the steering rack. The shocks have nitrogen canisters, which are double adjustable. The back shocks are custom design inverted Biltien, with. Nitrogen canisters, and are triple adjustable. They are custom built length and travel to compensate for the lowered car. There is no rubber in the suspension. All monoball and bronze bushings. I have an alignment platform that is very heavy duty. Having the car on a perfectly level surface,which the platform provides is critical. It gets the car up so you can get under and make adjustments. The platform has scale pockets, and I have turn plates to and just the camber. I have all smart racing products alignment tools and longacre scales. I use the string alignment method. Being that I have multiple 911s it was worth it to purchase the equipment and learn how to align and corner balance the cars. I was able to adjust and set the Kenimetic Toe on the 993 with two digital levels, instead of the Expensive Porsche tools. Please keep making these great videos.
Thanks for commenting, Rod.
Did you build that as a track day tool?
@@GreasyFingers I was autocrossing it for a few years, then stopped to make more modifications. The car was fishtailing really bad, which led to finding the extreme toe out at the rear, and the bent torsion bar tube. The right way is to cut the tube out and weld in a new one. I was told by Rich Walton, at Jerry Woods Enterprises, where I bought all the Smart Racing alignment tools and front suspension struts with adjustable drop spindles, and Fox racing dampers, to leave the tube alone as long as I could achieve proper toe adjustment. I had to pull the tube a little and modify the spring plates to allow for more adjustment. Most of the other suspension components, sway bars, 935 cross brace, adjustable quick change spring plates, bump steer kit, custom rear dampers, monoball upper strut mounts with precision adjustability, we’re from Chuck Moreland of Elephant Racing. 12 years later I’m still modifying.
I really like your rack and I decided to copy it. You used 40x40 and 34x34 mm steal? My Porsche 924/76 is after a full restoration in need of a proper front and back alignment. Thank you! Sigurd
Nonono, much smaller.
I guess it was 20*20 and 25*25.
Cheers,
Johannes
you shall count to thrrree ... not two or four! but thrrrreee… 😋 your car is a holy hand grenade! ❤️
Thanks, Mads. 😁
Hi - great video - I have been watching your channel for some time but it is the first time that I see the lift you are using. Also in a previus video you use a inspektion camera for the rust protection in the body. What are the make of the lift and the inspektion camera?
Thanks!
The lift is a Twin Busch, the camera some no name product from Amazon.
Fantastic skills. My 3.2 needs this. When you are free 😀
Where are you located, David? California? I could be there in about 20 hours. 😁
@@GreasyFingers I wish! Oxfordshire UK! I’ll have to drive over 😀
That’s a start! Been there and found it great.
@@GreasyFingers I’ve added a pic of my car in my profile picture for you to see.
@@davidwills3107 That’s a wonderful colour! Is it Schieferblau? Slate Blue?
Interior black?
Very informative and as with all your videos, done in such a lovely way. I think I need to do this on my 3.2. I paid for 4 wheel laser adjustment and they struggled with the caster and I am not happy with the handling so I am certain I will have the rock hard sealant at the top of the strut as you clearly show. My question is...once you'd removed that, did you replace it with anything? PS. I am also now saving up for one of those 1 post lifts...
Thanks, James. It’s always the caster that the laser guys mess up.
I’ve replaced the original sealant with Butyl tape.
Great vid as usual… so caster angle can be measured directly on the strut with an angle gauge?
Basically yes. The problem is you measure it with the wheels weighted and unless you have a lift on which the car can stand on its wheels, there's not enough space to apply the angle gauge.
wonderful explanation of old school mechancs. As an aircooled enthusias, one of the best on the tube.
just one question. In the video you said you needed to remove the sealing when setting the caster; at the end of the work did you need to reseal it or just left unsealed?
Thanks, Francesca.
Yes, in deed I replaced the old sealant using butyl tape.
Nice and to the point video, thank you. Who makes the roll under side lift? That is a really nice piece.
Thanks, mate.
That’s a TwinBusch TW125M-OV
@@GreasyFingers Thanks for getting back to me so fast. That lift is quite impressive. Oh, and your videos are fun and entertaining not just to the point!
Very cool work with base tools; only question is the check at the upper front damper cover that may not be in line wit the damper axes.
Tomorrow first thing …
@@GreasyFingers I did first check an adjustment and it starts getting better than before, great thanks
@@MX-fo2nu Great news. I checked the damper and didn’t find anything that made me suspicious. Did you notice anything specific at some place in the movie?
This is a great video. However, it still seems complicated since I have never done it before. I'm definitely looking forward to getting everything set just perfect when the time comes. Keep the videos coming!
Thanks, Rodney.
This job is already lying in wait for you.
I would like to see you adjusting the Giulia.
Me too. 😀
Excellent explanation related to Air Cooled 911s but....Adjustable Spring Plates?
See my latest one. ☺️
You have to use them to get easy access to be able to easily adjust ride height and corner balance the car.
Yes, the laser can be beaten by the string.
Yeap! You got a nice channel!
@@GreasyFingers Thank you.
Hi, thanks for your videos, all are well done and nicel to watch. May I know what tyre sizes do you use? I have 15 inch rims.
Hi Jose. Thanks for the feedback.
Yeah, I have the stock 15 wheels.
It is hard to find tyres in proper sizes, 195/65 or 215/60 are those the Michelin you use?
Yeah, that’s the Michelins.
In fact they’re hard to get in Germany too. I tend to order them in October to have them in February.
The car in this video is on 16” with Michelin Exalto 2. Those are not produced in 15” 911 sizes….
Verrrry interesting! I spent about 6 years using a variety of alignment machines in a number of shops. A lot of technicians have no idea how to calibrate their machines and therefore the end results can be poor. Alignments and their respective geometries can confound most mechanics which are often only able to replace parts and have little interest in the theory of operation involved. Good for you to get involved with DIY. I do have a question about the caster on your car and the factory specs. Is there not a recommendation for a slightly more positive angle on the RH side due to road crown? When i had done alignments in the 80's most cars were set with 1/2 degree more caster. We were also taught to ensure the tire pressures were correct before starting the alignment and preferably, the car should have half a tank of fuel. The car should be bounced and allowed to settle after every adjustment was another recommendation. Lastly, just a bit of trivia for you. When it became standard practice to do 4-wheel alignments, one machine would use strings connecting measuring heads mounted on each wheel. Techs could often be frustrated due to wind or breezes causing the string to oscillate giving erroneous results. Lasers ended up replacing strings eventually. Cheers!
Thanks for commenting, Brad.
The sealant Porsche used between the top bearings of the strut and the body is becoming brittle and hard after a while. It’s impossible to adjust the caster without removing it. And you know what? At about 60% of the cars I get in my workshop the sealant is untouched, ie the caster and toe had never been adjusted at all. Hilarious when you think about how people lower their cars.
I never heard about adjusting caster unsymmetrically, but I do see the point.
Sei molto bravo e la tua 3.2 è veramente grandiosa
...mi permetto solo un piccolo appunto: l'altezza va misurata dal centro del mozzo (o del cerchione) al bordo del parafango. Con questo parametro è ininfluente il consumo del battistrada o il diametro effettivo se nuovo
Buona osservazione, hai ragione!
Good afternoon, i am in great admiration for your vidéo channel greasy fingers.
I also have a 911 carrera model 1986 in red like yours. May I ask you a question ? On the front camber you turned the front wheels to 20°, then with your ruler took the front and back degrees of the tyer but then marked one dimension on your sticky tape, does this mean that you took the average degrees between front and back of the tyre, or was that curiosity ?
I would be very greatfull to hear from you.
From an english man living in the south west of France.
Yours sincerely
Alex
Thanks, Alex.
The camber can be measured directly with the wheel standing on the ground and 0 degrees steering angle.
To measure the caster, the camber at +20 and -20 degrees steering angle are measured and the result you insert into the formula that I wrote on the tape.
I hope that answers your question. If not, please feel free to continue asking, maybe using the time stamp of the film you’re referring to.
What I didn't understand why toe at the end or was it just record that way? I would imagine that off-toe would severely put off weight distribution and thus affect caster and camber. But then again I haven't been so lucky last time i tried setting up suspension geometry myself using the string method only. Our TÜV said toe was off about a 1° overall. I had to resort to the lasers do the work ultimately.
To some extent all angles have an influence on the others. I actually did toe first (without the camera on), then I did camber & caster and then toe again. Then drove the car a week or so and checked it all again.
For rear its not shown yet how to adjust ; i already did camber adjustment via 12mm 6kt and its also not difficult and good to meassure with the angle messure box and also easy the manuel hand made adjust with the metal gauge for a good toe in for the rear wheels
Don’t understand, mate.
Ich habe in einem Video diese Einsäulenbühne gesehen. Bist du mit der zufrieden und läßt sich damit auch ein Motoraustausch bewerkstelligen? Welche Marke? Habe das gleiche Fahrzeug, jedoch mit Heckspoiler.
Danke, Gerhard. Das ist eine Twin Busch und ich kann sie definitiv empfehlen.
Motoraustausch beim 911 mache ich so, dass ich den Motor auf meinem stabilen Rolltisch ablege und dann das Auto drüber weg hebe. Funktioniert gut, man muss nur das einseitige Hängen des Autos aufgrund der Durchbiegung durch die Schraubteller kompensieren, damit er gerade steht.
nochmal interessehalber: kann man wirklich den Nachlauf auch checken, wenn man den Winkel direkt am Federbein misst ? Abgesehen von der Schwierigkeit den Winkelmesser genau zu platzieren …
Auf jeden Fall ganz herzlichen Dank für das tolle Video ! Ich werde diese Einstellarbeiten demnächst an meinem VW Porsche 914 machen, der ja eine 911 Vorderachse hat.
Servus Christian, ja, das kann man.
Oft wird der Nachlauf ja in mm angegeben, dann ist etwas Trigonometrie nötig, aber wenn er wie bei Porsche in Grad angegeben ist, kann man ihn bei der McPherson-Achse direkt raus messen. Bei einer Doppelquerlenkerachse z.B. ist das was anderes.
@@GreasyFingers super, vielen Dank für die Rückmeldung! Das werde ich auf jeden Fall probieren.
I am only mildly OCD but after seeing you using a screwdriver as a chisel I had to breathe into a paper bag...
Nobody’s perfect, mate.
Except you of course.
You have put handling straight but 911 still want to go straight when pushed hard and steered deeply... some say that the car handles differently with full or half a tank
Yeah, I do notice a difference between full and empty tank.
Regarding steering behaviour, all you say is true, but still I like it. Feedback and control about what the front wheels are doing are unique. I prefer it 7 days a week over today’s electric plastic steering.
@@GreasyFingers true... i do like analog cars. Never ever driven a 911.
What is the name and model of your portable electric car lift?
Please select:
a) may I ask
b) would you mind telling me
c) Please, can I ask
@@GreasyFingers b) would you mind telling me
@@frasercocks It’s a Twin Busch TW125M. I think it‘s an excellent product. 😊
"oh no its so complicated."
My friend you can align a Porsche with two wooden shims, a paperclip and some string.
😊
Do you have 8s and 6s wheels? Maybe that's your problem.
Thanks for the comment, but no, it isn’t.
As I said in the film, the caster wasn’t symmetric. Now it is and the handling is very good.
Seems like it would be easier to buy a cheap set of wheels and mount the wheels without tires and let it rest on the ground on the rims just for measuring.
That’s what I said to the guy who taught that job to me. His answer was: If your tire is not sitting properly on the wheels, fix the tires first.
@@GreasyFingers he’s myopic. Tires are not perfect. A wheel will be precise. I’m sure a tire will be pretty close.
Yeah, there’s gear that connects to the rim, but I never felt the necessity to spend money on it, because tire is precise enough.
Can you do my 911 964 c2 1993 I come to your place
Deal. 😊