6.5 Creedmoor - 140gr Barnes Match Burner with AA4350 and N550
Vložit
- čas přidán 27. 08. 2024
- Testing out the 140gr Barnes Match Burner in 6.5 Creedmoor. The test gun is a Thompson Center Compass and the powders are Accurate 4350 and VihtaVuori N550. For some reason, we experienced a lot of hang fire issues with N550. There will be much more on that subject in the next video!
UPDATED 09/27/2018 - All links have been removed to comply with CZcams content policies.
www.patreon.com/reloading
"a little more boom boom per grain" i want that on a t-shirt
When dealing with anything that has chemicals in it, paint, solvents, powder, etc... The worse it smells, the better it works!
Yes a new Video. Thanks Johnny
Good to see a new video up, was afraid you’d come down with the crud like everyone else seems to
You had some good points in your analysis of the problem. It is possible to test the primer size issue by using brass with large primers. From a chemical point of view, the powder did not reach a temperature high enough to support full combustion. Powder burning is a chemical process. Your other point about there not being enough powder fill was interesting too. Perhaps the distance between the igniting primer and the powder in the case was too far. This is a very strange problem. Perhaps a message to the tech support at the powder company may help--or maybe they would not respond to a question like this for legal reasons. There is certainly a lot to ponder.
Here's another thing that occurred to me...maybe this is why Lapua uses such a tiny flash hole in their 6.5 Creedmoor brass. A smaller flash hole would concentrate the flame a little more, I would think, and perhaps be better at lighting off difficult powders.
I suspect cold temps + CCI primers + low case fill causing your hang / mis fires. Get that powder tight against a Federal primer and see if it goes away.
OK, that is odd! I'm waiting with baited breath to see what happens next! Looking at quickload's information on this load is interesting too... at 37.5 calculated case fill is 82.5% and its not even at 40000 psi pressure. According to that data could push 44 to max out and still be at 97%fill with that crazy long OAL. Also if a bullet does not have a jump to touch rifling the amount of pressure to start the bullet moving is considerably higher so could the ojive be further forward creating a pressure differential to create hang fire effect, and due to the low pressures of the load it's stalling for pressure? Is Sally going to tell Jim she's pregnant with Steve's baby? ALL THIS AND MORE! (Its like watching a soap opera, for gun toting number crunchers!) Keep it up brother... we're all waiting.
Good vid JRB, glad to see a new video up. The fact the primer went off tells me this is probably not gun related at all. I think this is a small primer pocket issue with a certain powder needing large primer pockets and many people have also switched to magnum primers in their large primer pocket brass. I think in moparmadman’s videos he has switched to magnum primers in large primer pocket brass for his loads. As far as other Small primer pocket brass doing better or for comparison the Lapua small primer pocket brass also has a smaller flash hole than the starline, I can’t see that helping this problem, but who knows.
Would like to see you test that Vhitavori powder with different primers in both small and large primer pocket brass as well as magnum primers in large primer pocket brass. That might tell us something.
Also curious to see if this would have went off or improved with a fuller case being a high energy powder.
Keep up the great vids JRB.
T Hutch that is what I was thinking as well. Maybe the powder is getting just enough temperature to start oxidizing, but not enough to kick off full combustion. I’m no chemist, but I think you’re on to something here.
Good to see your still alive and haven't blown your face off in the last week since your last video. You can always perform the same test you did with the 147 BLK subs that you were having varying speed issues with. Load the round, tilt the gun to bring the powder back towards the primer and shoot. One last thing I'd try before swapping powders or going to large primer brass would be to seat the bullet in more. In the end, a larger case fill will be the ticket. Definitely a lot of click booms in your video.
Friend of mine has been reloading a long time. The other day he made a comment that may be useful here. With low powder volume he puts a cotton wad on top of the powder to keep it in place against the primer flash hole. If the case isn't full, he said he always adds cotton.
I've shot these a lot. Work pretty well out to 600, but after that they just don't fly the same. They'll remain supersonic out past 1k yards. They just don't group nearly as well as ELD-M, Sierra TMKs, or Berger Hybrid Target. N550, N150, N555, and N560 are all excellent powders. I've used em all. Lowest SDs I ever had in 6.5CM is with N150/N160. Got it down to 3.4. ES was under 10 as well. Accuracy was great out to 400 yards. After that, they just weren't moving fast enough to make any kind of long-range shots. The N550/555/560 all work very well for real good accuracy and precision at 1k yards.
What a great way to make good use of lemons. The testing of primers sounds very interesting.
Also I got the Amazon Scale you recommended the other day, and first impressions are good! Just loaded some 308 and checked it against another good scale and that little thing was spot on! Haven't checked if I can trickle it off 0 but will soon. SO thanks for that info!
Tango Bravo Zulu I picked one up also. Always loaded with a beam scale in the past
I am the Senior Ballistics manager for a midsize national Ammunition Company; I too have been receiving reports from customers experiencing the same issues in several different cartridges and calibers having a CCI primer. The primer ignites but the powder does not burn in which several reports of squibs had occurred. I have used several different types of powders and still the same results randomly occurred. I changed to different brands of primers with no reoccurrences reported to date.
How can I make contact with you?
Ok you got me curious enough to watch another primer test I hope your happy.
Thanks for video. It's very important I believe to have the forearm at the same place on the front bag. Preferably more under the chamber area. With light forearms you get a different vibration jump if the stock is not in the same place.
That's why I went to the large primers brass casings !!! Small primers aren't hot enough for some powders
My first 6.5 Creedmoor loads all gave me very slight hang fires but no f-t-f. Those first loads were all very low starting charges of H414 (from the Lee manual) with CCI 400 primers. After those I switched to CCI 450 primers and my loads were larger; I've not had a hang fire since. I look forward to your next video.
Tim from "the military arms channel" recently made a video about some factory ammo he bought and he was having some bad hang firing issues too. When he looked at the powder it had yellow-ish clumps like the ones in this video. Maybe something to look for after buying new bottles of powder.
Very good forensics, Johnny keep safe! Quite enjoyable!
....and also, yes, you can actually hear the primer strike- with a delayed boom! Awesomely scary!
I think you described an electrically fired primer near the end of the video, Remington came out with a rifle a while ago that used special primers and essentially all the trigger did was complete a circuit to fire the weapon, didn’t catch on but if it had, it would mean a completely customizable trigger as the mechanism is not reliant on the physical dimensions or action of a mechanical trigger group, and you could theoretically have a delayed action or simulated long “lock time” to practice follow through
Johnny,
My theory is that the smaller powder charge is being thrown forward when closing the bolt vigorously , and the small primer flame is running out of 'heat' by the time it travels the empty gap to the powder...which would also explain the hang fires....the flame is probably igniting a few grains in the middle if the case, and climbing up the ramp of powder, slowing down ignition by a millisecond or so....just sayin.
I don't think it's a flash hole or primer problem....(from Starline)
"Our SR6.5CM brass uses a Small Rifle Primer...... *Starline uses our standard .080" flash hole, as we feel that it gives better ignition with some of the slower powders and in colder conditions (and you won't be breaking off decapping pins either!)*?....""
if thats the case, it could be solved with magnum primers?
Falls in line what i experienced with underfilled cases like a 38 special loads tend to be.
glock17games+
...i guess so. They would probably help with actual ignition....but I don't know if mag primers would tame the wild swing in velocities like Johnny was experiencing with some of his shots. I look forward to his testing video.
=-)
Beeing a double base powder i think the cold weather might ahve played a role in those velocities.
More on point, jsut noticed now he was actually using CCI 450s ........
glock17games+
Agreed, I was thinking the outside temperature did affect it to some degree....see what I did there? :-D
That hang-fire was crazy
It't a bizarre feeling as the shooter!
I've seen it happen twice with shotgun shells with 2-3 seconds delay. Very dangerous if you you not aware of whats going on
Very Nice Work Johnny! Great detective work......I'm Interested to see the investigative rap up on this!
Wise decision to stop firing the string. I've never seen one but there are stories floating around about detonation from underfilled cases. Tip the rifle back then level it out to fire without lowering the muzzle below level; it'll probably go off. I can't imagine this is going to produce long term consistent ammunition though.
Thought you flew the coop, lol. Great video as always!
VV Powder: When you absolutely, positively have to have a few duds every now and then to keep your hunts more challenging.
With low case volume powders I was told you can use dry baby cereal on top of the powder charge to keep the powder packed against the flash hole.
Lock time issues..clean bolt thoroughly..
Low pressure as you've said..37.5-41.5 grains..watching pressure signs.
Loosen trigger overtravel a bit may help..sounds like trigger may be hanging firing pin slightly.
Dissasemble the bolt..give the inside a good spray of wd-40..may be condensation in the body that partially froze.
I remember reading about 308 Palma Bras from Lapua. Between videos articles and websites it came down to the National Rifle Team was testing this for national matches and over thousands of rounds it proved more accurate. Several points over matches. Hard to measure in small batches. However the drawback was poor ignition in cold weather. For hunting or mission critical ops the large primer was preferred.
I was under the impression that it was more due to the small flash hole more so than the primer. But it seems that the small primer and certain powder combinations are the culprit more so but small flash hole may be an aggravating circumstance.
This being said retest troublesome loads with large primer brass to verify. Although small rifle primer testing seems like an interesting test too.
I would like to see you load more premium bonded hunting bullets like swift, accubond, Barnes LRX, even the new federal terminal accent.
The first hang fire was very noticeable.
Johnny, next time, fire the rifle from the standing position with the rifle pointed as close to straight down into the ground, while remaining safe. Gravity will force the powder to rest on the projectile end of the case. You’ll have an indication if case fill and lack of ignition is compounded by the distance between primer and powder. (Btw...a very relevant test as can be imagined by being up in a tree stand and shooting downward). I’m sure you’ll duplicate hangfires and failure to ignite.
I would also like to see you shoot the same charge weights at both seating depths
Interesting video...Thanks for giving the match burners a try....
Absolutely love your channel. Keep up the good work!!!!!
I love your attitude. I'm waiting for the lemonade.
well, if you want to do an investigation, then simply try the same loads in some large primer brass. However, shooting high energy powder in a partially filled case is never a good idea. You could take some of the nasty looking powder outside and see if it will ignite. Look at the unused powder in the bottle to see if it also has discolored powder.
Have you thought about drilling out the flash hole a bit wider to help with powder ignition? That should help to distribute the flash to more powder, initially...
Avery Sakshaug +
Normally I would agree, but Starline's 6.5CM small primer pocket's uses our standard .080" flash hole. ;-) See my theory up top.
Maybe not drill it out, but use a flash hole uniformer that leaves a "funnel" type cut on the inside. Give the primer flame a place to expand after exiting the flash hole instead of shooting straight forward.
the max load for n-550 is 39.0gr 2677 max load for aa4350 is 43.5 gr
When r u going to revisit the match burner bullets for a more fair shake? Really like to see how the fair compared to the hornady bthp
Hey JRB, glad you're ok, was worried you had fallen ill, or frozen solid :)
Interesting video. I've never gone that low with N550, nor have I been using CCI 400 & 450 primers, I've stayed away from them for years now, only run Winchester or Federal, some Remington when I can find their match primers. My loads for the 140-class bullets in 6.5CM I've been up around 40-41grs of N550 depending on the exact bullet used, using both sizes of primers, no hangfires during my shooting. But I've also never had them that cold either. Interested to see what you do next.
They kind of already make a training aid like you were talking about or at least every muzzle loader I've ever shot does it to an extent... It's also why I can't freaking shoot them. LOL I would love to see some more videos with Accurate 4350 in 6.5 Creedmoor especially now when nobody can find H4350...
VV now has recommended loads for N550 for 6.5 creedmoor on their website.
Stopped using VV powder for this exact reason. Hang fires and miss fires in my 6.5 x 55 (new T3 stripped and cleaned before use) Rem 9.5 primers, primers had gone off, copper coloured granules and clumps. Changed to several different primers and still had the problem. Stopped using VV and the problem went away. Conclusion? Use different powder. Numerous people I spoke with afterwards experienced same problem.
Iv been using N170 in my 243, and I couldn't be happier. I don't have a chrono but i suspect im close to the seal, just happen to get half inch groups at 200
I'm curious to know why it didnt result in a squib on the misfire? I would have thought that the primer ignition by itself would have pushed the bullet out partially. I guess the 6.5 creedmoor case is large enough to absorb the pressure from the ignited primer; unlike a smaller case like a pistol 9mm round???
I am surprised by how well the hang fire shows up on video. Your mic clearly picks up a click and then bang. I would like to see you send the video and follow up round inspection to the powder manufacturer. I am curious what they would have to say about it.
Very interesting video.
For testing perhaps go small primer brass with normal, match, and magnum primers, then large primer brass with the same with bullets loaded long and short in each.
Vit6ovori says MAGNUM primers. Read your data.
Let us blow are freaking face off man! More shooting!
I had 2 CCI BR-2 primers fail to fire out on a cold morning. (Texas cold ok not very) but all others have been flawless and that is thousands last year. Mine were fail to ignite primers over Varget.
Sr primers are lower energy than lr primers. Cci standard sr primers dont have the energy of ignition needed in cold temps. Switch to magnum sr primers or use CCI 450...they'll do the job.
nitroglycerine will not detonate from just a flash of flame. it needs an impact or a strong jolt. I wonder if that causes VV N550 not to go off every time. Plus low temp. Large Magnum primer might have just strong enough action for it. maybe even standard large primer.
for what it's worth and I am new to shooting and reloading and as soon as I saw those small primer holes in my nickel plated 6.5 cm I just thru them out. I thought it was a mistake :)
They were Federal ammo !
That's weird stuff! I'm glad I decided to order large primer pocket brass. It will be interesting to see what your research into the root cause reveals.
20 degrees, cold? That's 40 degrees warmer than Its been the past two weeks here!
Johnny, the kind of delayed ignition you mention at about 30:00 is called blackpowder shooting ;)
Anyway, isnt it the combination of it all? Doublebased powder in freezing temperatures (i always felt like they behave a litle unpredictable in very hot or cold conditions), small primers in a big case, a litle bit of slack in the casefilling?
29:30 I'm pretty sure they call those training aids "Rock-Locks"
If I send you some GP11 would you revisit 7.5x55 Swiss for a cloning video?
As soon as I get my front sight modified so I can sight my gun in at 100 yards, I will revisit the subject. I have a big box of the 175gr Sierra Match Kings that I intended to use for a GP11 clone-ish load. I appreciate the offer, but don't worry about sending me any right now. Thanks!
If you want to try to train with delayed ignition, try a flintlock primed with 2F powder.
Johnny what's the barrel length on your Thompson center? I managed to pick up 5 pounds of this aa4350 (switching from h4350 for availability problems in my area). I'll be shooting a 140 gr eld-m that I typically load to 40.7 grains of h4350 out of a 22 in lr308 with a federal magnum large rifle primer. typically getting around 2650 fps. hoping to work up a load that works as well or better
I’m shooting 6,5x55 whit N550 and Remington 9 1/2 primer’s never had a hang fire.
I’ve experienced hang fires in 375 h&h while developing 2200fps loads with light billets (training loads) - excess case capacity can prevent powder ignition. You need more cow bell - aka hotter primer. Try small rifle magnum and/or large rifle in different brass.
I don’t know what it is about the the 6.5 creedmoor but at 2575-2590 with several combos of powder/bullet/ primers it’s groups well.
Glad you are back Johnny. What did the case fill look like for the Vihtavuori charges? I wonder if the red is powder that was somewhat burned by the primer ignition but was too much room in the case?
I’ve shot 35gr - 36 gr of varget with no problems great groups all under 1” and velocity was around 2500-2550 FPS. Those velocities you shot were really low.
The red powder is definitely the somewhat burned stuff. Case fill was very small...I'll try to get a picture in the next vid.
I enjoyed how nice the n555 shot but the speeds were really slow till well into 43.5-43.6 and the es's and sd's were well higher than factory ammo . had almost the same results with 6.5 and shooters world but thanks for the accurate info as well as others
Boy I love your videos, Id love to see you do one on the Mossberg Patriot 7mm-08 if you can ever get your hands on one. SOMETHING TO THINK about to compare to the 6.5 Creed
That's strange. I had very nice results with N550 and 139gr lapua scenar right at 39.8 grains, but it was with hornady brass and cci br2.
Looking forward to see the primer testing, but now i have lapua brass, i will test the same load just to see if i have the same problems.
Keep up the good work very nice videos!
I’m about to work up loads of A4350 and Hornady ELD-X. I also have IMR4451 I have worked up loads but i got slow speeds in my Tikka. What do you recommend 4350 or 4451 for the ELD-X?
Another great video Johnny! You got me thinking about cartridges that didn't fire. I am going to start breaking
them down and looking at the primer and poweder.
Woo hoo! New vid!
Very interesting stuff. Curious to see what you come up with and how it will perform. What primers were used in this video?
I went out shooting yesterday and it was about 5 degrees out. I was having lots of function issues, including some cartridges that failed to fire. The cold can definitely be an issue.
Why not use the comparator for your seating depth????
I have found different CBTO measurements with different bullets where they hit the lands (not in 6.5CM, as I haven't really tested it yet). For the comparator to work for that purpose, it would need to touch the bullet at the exact same ogive spot that the rifling first makes contact. I will test that in the Creedmoor at some point.
I have foiund with Vhita Vuori powder it likes to be near full or full case
Those hangfires could be cause by not enough grain to grain contact.
I'm curious. In your other videos I've watched for 6.5cm through this same rifle, the muzzle really jumps on recoil, but in this video it does the preferred 'straight back' recoil. Did you change your posture? Is this due to more (winter) clothing simulating a higher shoulder hold???
You have to get an affiliate link for midsouth shooter supply.
They do make the primer you are talking about but it is not a primer at all it is flintlock will give you the delay you want
Longer seating depth means lower preasure, right? Could it be the long seating depth that causes the low preasure in the N550 loads? the scenar was tested at 2.717'', thats 0.158'' shorter. That's a quite significant increase in lenght.
I'd just throw away the N550 powder and Barnes bullets.
Weird things going on with that Ignition. I think I would try some other primers just to see what happens with the same charge that fail with the CCI
Im curious to see if removing the chronograph and suppressor will open up some of those smaller groups due to the harmonics in the barrel. Wouldn't you want a load made for the rifle the way it would be used out in the field?
Interesting video at first i was wondering if the cold weather was slowing down your firing pin but the primers fired so it doesnt sound like your problem. I am picking up my own 6.5 hipster tomorrow so i have been binging your videos.
First, I sure owe you for all the info I get out of your vids.
Curious if you have tested this load again since Barnes now has data. I was surprised they recommended 2.700" COAL. I've loaded my first test but decided on 2.745" and still think that's too deep. (I need a comparator). I plan on trying R16, R17, H4350, 4451, and maybe Superformance. I'm also shooting a TC Compass,,, because you sold me on that rifle...
Would also love to see (on occassion) your loads tested without the Can just to see if that is having any effect.
Thanks Mang!
I havnt experined this problem in my 6br, cci 450, 107 smk, i have tried varget, 4320, and 4166.
VV loads, does not look like the primers have the ring around them like the other powders do. Too low a pressure?
Are you interested in testing any of the barnes LRX or TTSX bullets in any calibers? I've watched most all your videos and havnt seen anything except a test that didnt finish due to hang fires. These seem like exceptional bullets and there are a lot of people saying they shoot like match bullets. Curious if that's the case.
I had some of the same problem. Different scenario but kind of the same thing and I think it was the primer. Hotter primers I think would solve the problem that's is quite a bit of powder to touch off and maybe a large rifle primers would work better woth the double based powders. And in that amount. That's my theory lol probably not right but that's what I think it is
Did you just use a kinetic bullet puller to empty the 2 unfired cases?
I used a Hornady Cam-Lock bullet puller so I could pull them without disturbing the powder. I wanted to see if it had clumped. I do use a kinetic puller a lot, though.
Johnny's Reloading Bench
I had never really thought about a miss fired case before. I definitely wouldn't think of using a kinetic puller, but I am far from knowledgeable on this subject.
I cannot believe that Accurate doesn’t have more 6.5 Creedmoor load data. Bad marketing.
Hello accurate powder is what I’m using and will use , for everything I reload, thanks for the info on the m-stuff - JUNK
im not 100% sure but the powder looks similar to Military arms channels experience with the 7.7 PCI ammo for the arisaka he posted a few weeks back. Maybe some weird residue from a bad priming mixture?
Use.mag primers. Will help
I'm shooting 41.3 grains viht 550 with hornady 143 eld-x. Right at 2700 fps.
I know nothing about this powder/primer combo, but theorizing, wonder if it needs a magnum primer to burn well.
Johnny don't want to see you get hurt did you contact the powder company to see if they had any information on possible problems with 6.5 Creedmoor or small primers verses large ones?
Try some large rifle primer pocket brass. The small primers aren't cutting it.