Honda S2000 vs Subaru BRZ | Driver Battles
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- čas přidán 1. 07. 2024
- If you love affordable Japanese sports cars, then this episode of Driving Line’s Driver Battles is for you. In it, Will Wattanawongkiri and his 2022 Subaru BRZ go up against Son Vo and his 2008 Honda S2000 CR at Chuckwalla Valley Raceway. With both cars evenly matched on horsepower, this battle is one that will go down to the wire.
0:00 Intro at Chuckwalla Valley Raceway
1:17 Will's BRZ Build Breakdown
2:42 Son's S2000 CR Build Breakdown
3:25 Feedback on Nitto NT01's
5:17 Driver Battles: Time Attack Rules and How To Compete
6:19 Time Attack Hot Lap
8:40 Impressions from the Track
10:40 Final Track Results
Let’s dive into the details of the cars to get a better sense of who might have the edge in this tight battle. The first car up is Will’s relatively stock BRZ. Its 2.4L flat four engine puts out 228hp. As far as mods go, he has added SPL/WRT control arms, Volk Racing TE37 wheels and Nitto NT01 tires, which he ran with both 17-inch and 18-inch setups at different times throughout the day. Son’s S2000 has seen a little more modification, but not a ton. He has added an Ohlins DFV 14kg, 4.44 1.75 Spoon LSD, Mugen hardtop, Recaro RMS carbon seat, VolkZE40 wheels and 255/40ZR17 Nitto NT01 tires. His F22C 2.0L I4 engine also puts out 220hp, so he is right about where Will is at.
With the consistency of the NT01 tires, both drivers had the opportunity to push their times lower as the day went on. The only question was, who could take advantage, and who would be left wishing they had pushed that little bit more?
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Son Vo: / n00dler
Will Wattanawongkiri: / w1llizm - Auta a dopravní prostředky
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As a GR86 owner I have so much love and respect for the 20yr old s2000 that’s still one of the best track cars
Respect from a s2000 owner to you as well. Enjoy the 86.
People tend to forget that while yes the S2000 is a significantly older car than the GR86/BRZ is was also a significantly more expensive car during it's time. The S2000 price range today is more like a Supra. Its obviously an amazing car but just needs to be put into perspective.
@@mpa1931 Tech and manufacturing processes have improved and in turn makes production cheaper.
You also have to take those things into account
@@mpa1931 wow good point I never realized how much msrp was until I googled it just now. 32k in 2001 is equivalent to 53,500 in todays money.
@@TheGreatBabyPigs in Australia S2k were 76k brand new. Whatever price you got there is dreamily not possible... 😃
You be lucky to drive away from dealership under 50k.
The styling of the S2K still holds the test of time. The headlights alone look amazing
I think it looks amazing, it’s like it took all the things I like about old cars and all the things I like about new cars. It’s really really high on my list styling wise.
@@rabidlorax1650 The body itself is just so perfect, Not too obnoxious, not overly done, just right amount of curves and a bit of sharpness with the lines is so good. Newer Honda cars is just not the same....But I gotta admit, the new GR86/BRZ is really growing on me with its looks. Though I just wish they get the problems fixed that's been talked about recently. Also the fact that its a subaru engine and wished it was honestly a Honda instead.
@@EnhancedTrashBin Nope! As a former owner, I wished it had more curve at the buttresses (rear fenders); too flat there. Every time I washed it, I wished that.
20 years old and the S still more than holds its own. Legend.
The MSRP of a new s2000 today would be 50 grand.
I’ll never sell mine!
@@farhan007 its not because of the GR86
@@mariagus805 Type in the new MSRP of a FD in 1993 to an inflation calculator....
Your FD would cost 67 grand today new
@@fhowland The S2000's MSRP was close to a Porsche Boxster 986 and 987 generation. If you're expecting the GR86/BRZ to have 718 Boxster/Cayman levels of performance for sub $30k, you need a brain scan.
I love my 01 s2k!! bought it back in 06 and still driving it today as my daily 👍🏻
Probably one of the best one yet. Two talented driver, similar mod, same tire size. Keep it up!
Would be neat to do a non-aero s2k vs BRZ.
@@chubby_miata non aero s2k is really really bad.
@@rabidlorax1650 No. Just gotta know how to countersteer.
@@chubby_miata that’s not how it works at all…
A car that started production in 1999 is still able to go toe-toe with a 2022 car. That in itself shows how far ahead Honda was for its time back than.
Or it just goes to show some cars don't need to progress as much, my gr86 is much slower than my 1993 FD I had but it's still fun.
It was easier to produce a pure sports car back then in terms of chassis design and engine. Due to market demands and emissions/safety regulation it makes way less sense economically to design a bespoke sports car nowadays than 20+ years ago. The BRZ/86 is basically a RWD subaru impreza at its core in terms of the unibody and engine. The s2000 is a ground up sports car in every way.
@@DxWhoopingCrane Although the engine is not brand new, the BRZ/86 is its own platform and is not a cheap chassis knockoff of a impreza. Honda has always been innovative and on top of performance. It is worth noting that while our everyday cars are much faster today, the affordable sports cars/roadsters are not. (miata, 86, si)
@@AJCo-tv5ry First let me say I love the BRZ/86(both gens), but its basically a rwd coupe subaru at its core. The BRZ/86 is of course its own platform and its owns chassis, but the fundamental engineering of the suspension/chassis is extremely similar to subarus. The front is classic subaru strut type with strut towers and lower control arm mounting points very far out to accommodate the subaru boxer engine, which causes some problems with geometry particularly with how short the lower control arm is. The rear suspension is also extremely similar and at a glance are virtually identical, look at the subframe and control arm diagrams between imprezas and BRZ/86 of the same generations. Tooling and supply chain costs were kept way down this way versus designing a car from the ground up. Compare this to the Honda S2000, a RWD roadster with a highly refined bespoke x frame chassis and one of the most highly tuned 4 bangers ever put in a production car, from a company that typically only makes FWD economy cars.
Dont get me wrong, the 86/BRZ is a great car and one of only a few new cars I would consider buying. And the choices they made were to make it economical to produce at an affordable price, if they were to go fully ground up design for chassis and engine like the S2K it never would have been produced. Toyota/Subaru should be highly commended for bringing an affordable RWD sports car to market, in that way it captures the spirit of the AE86 perfectly. The point I was trying to make is not that the 86/BRZ isnt a good car, just that its not really possible to make a pure ground up sportscar like the S2000 anymore because of economic and regulatory reasons.
@@DxWhoopingCrane Very true. The S2000 was not just a cool concept and just a sports car. It was a dream that was built with passion. We may never see another affordable and true sports car ever again.
Glad we are getting all these cool cars though just when we thought gasoline was dead, fun was unreasonable, and SUVs were going to be the only thing left
The Honda S2000 design team deserve major props. For being 20 year old, the S2000 looks modern and beautiful compared to the BRZ still. Beautiful 🥰❤️
The S2000's MSRP was close to a Porsche Boxster 986 and 987 generation. If you're expecting the GR86/BRZ to have 718 Boxster/Cayman levels of performance for sub $30k, you need a brain scan.
Crazy how much faster modern cars are.
S2000 is great no doubt, but accounting for inflation it would've cost $50k+, so the fact that a 30k car can beat it is quite impressive
S2000 looked more planted in corners but the power and torque advantage closed the gap. New BRZ and GR86 have been putting down 215/225hp at the wheels, so it's probably closer to 240ish crank hp. Subaru and toyota have done a fantastic job with the gen 2, excited to see these with power mods!
roughly same whp figures for the s2k also, great matchup
Be honest the log of two cars in corner is really close, the advantage is drivermod. Vtec is no joke, have been rolling with my friends s2k, 60mph rolling, s2000 is faster, but in 30mph, brz wins.
Simple flashpro tune puts the s2000 right there and weighs less, I make 236 wheel with jjst intake and catback. But stock about 200 wheel so brz gets it stock for stock on power
those ap2 cr s2000's made about 210 whp stock i think they where pretty tied power and power to weight ratio but i know the brz has way more torque throughout the powerband
@@iMickel I was at 227 before tune with bolts on then made 241 after tune. Vtec at 3600.
the S2000 was designed in the mid 90's....... Just let that sink in
OK, after 20 years, finally we get the twins can compete with s2000.
And can do it for cheaper!
@@lw1878 problem is an overrated car's price, if not s2000 should be 15k at max
@@Carlos.Rivera Negative. S2000 is worth every penny
Its allways unfair to compare used against new. U can get an old bmw m3, strip it, slick tires and bbk, and still be cheaper than many sport cars of today. Its that fair? It all ends on everyone choices (i tend to choose used sports cars for track days, cheap and i dont pity them)
The s2000 driver cannot drive
That S2k sound is pure music to my ears
That S2k makes such a powerful noise it’s a beautiful thing
Great idea for a matchup battle. Fantastic cars, love em both. But damn, that BRZ looks so good rotating through that corner at 4:59 😍
Great episode, shows how good the BRZ is and how amazing that 20 years later the s2000 is still that good, still miss mine!
Thanks for having us! Super close results and congrats to Will!
It’s crazy to be that close with 2 completely different driving styles and 2 completely different cars! Great video
The comparison we needed good job guys
Can’t beat the sounds the s2k makes I bought a ap1 when they first came out and fell in love
.After 20 years...S2000 it's a fantastic car. Congratulations Honda.
The Toybaru is now finally the car it should have been from the get go. Power to weight stock, there isn’t much in it between these two. They weigh pretty much the same and all of the dynos done on the Gen2 BRZ so far seem to point to them actually producing a bit over 240hp so they are similar there too…except that the BRZ has a significant torque advantage. The cars seem pretty well matched on paper.
Engine Dyno for New BRZ is actually around 270HP.
@@zerohikari2685 I call bs, looked up couple dyno charts and they make like 205whp, you need like 230whp at the wheels to make 270hp at the crank
I call the GR86 the Toybaru. The BRZ is the Subota.
awesome comparison! Cant believe how close the times were! both incredible cars and drivers. Well done mates!
Hard to look away from an S2000. Engineering marvel. The more you read up, the more you understand how many barriers Honda broke making it. A style that will live on until eternity, unlike the BRZ, even though the package is fantastic.
The S2000 is just the OG of small affordable rwd cars. And we are lucky they made the new BRZ/GR86 so good to be able to compete with it. Good times.
Awesome episode guys. Both great drivers and pretty comparable cars which led to a pretty close result. Dope
I love this series! Looking forward to more driver battles
This is a great race to see. Drivers, cars, everything.
S2000 what a beast! 20 years later still beautifull and fast!
i owned both s2 and FRS, both with similar mods with KW, tires and the basic for track days... the s2 feels and sound more mechanical. absolutely more rewarding on the s2 when you drives it right and get a fast lap time
First time watching driver battles and I love it. The video of the race feels exactly like a grand tourismo race replay. Soo nostalgic
This is exactly what I wanted to see, great video!
Glad you liked it!
Does no one notice the tomcat pattern on the RMS seat!?!? holy hell that is sick asf
Yo guys awsome series! love it!
correction: F22c is a 2.2L and the F20c is the 2.0L, Great video btw, such good automotive content, got a new sub here!
Wow, those are some excellent driving skills for both cars - very well matched. Both cars were running at 110%.
Great contest between the cars and the drivers. Credit to the 20 yr old Honda for still being super competitive against a brand new rival, and that induction noise is still like sonic sex.
Great episode. My experience with S2000 CRs on track have always been great. That being said, it looks like the BRZ is a solid choice for those looking for a well balanced track car with a warranty.
Great battle, the BRZ is what I would consider to be the the car most on par with my e30 M3. I managed a 2:03.72 at Chucky on NT01s. It is nice to finally have a good reference point.
Makes me glad to own an s2000. Even tho I don't track it like that.
I mean, the S2000 is the GOAT, no doubt. However, as the owner of a WRB 22 BRZ... Fuck yeah!! Great driving from both parties. Thank you Will for holding it down for the Gen Two community!!
I'm a s2k owner and not the biggest fan of modern cars but the gr86/BRZ is a great choice congrats!
Now I’d be interested to see how the GR86 would do by comparison. With all that said, the S2000 probably has the best feel.
It's hard to beat the raw driving experience of the s2000
brz has better steering feel, best steering response i have ever felt in a car
I'd like a deeper comparison. The brz has between the two, heavier weight but wider wheel base, and the engine makes more usable torque. Gearing would also matter too. The s2k has been known to be a scalpel but it is twitchy and the power band is super niche. You need to spend time shifting to keep it there and that's time loss. Though rpm range gives you options it's still down on torque. I really want to see the sector times and telemetry. I'd geek out over this. At the end of the day the old frs with an e85 tune was enough to be near on par with the s2k. I'm sure this new 86 combo is more than formidable.
@@pbrecipe2443 probably true. my biggest gripe with the s2000 is it's vague steering feel. still an amazing driver's car nonetheless
"Tastefully modded" has become the "I know what I got" of this generation.
Great video….wicked car rotation at the 5:00 min mark😮😮😮🍺🎉💪
Hoping for round 2!
Hondas NA 4 cylinders are the best sounding. All you here is the 8200rpm screamer. Both cars are equal. Awesome race.
We certainly agree, thanks for watching!
The real question is, will that GR86 drive or be as good as the S2000 20 years later ?
Both great drivers!!!!
A life long rivalry is born.
s2k so clean
Love your content too 👍
I like this driver battle. Would like to see them use the same car and setup to see who's really faster :)
Great pairing--love this one. Happy for all driving enthusiasts that not all new cars are worse than the mid-2000's legends 🙏
Damn that's as close as it gets. I am glad that after two decades they have finally matched the performance of the S2000.
S2000 is 20yrs old and still holding its own! OMG
This was a great comparison. Give the win to the BRZ driver but super interesting that while the times were basically the same the BRZ looked easier to drive. Would be cool to see a view of just the driver inputs since the times were essentially the same.
legendary
bigger engine 2.4 for the brz vs 2.0 s2000 and a 22 year difference. The s2000 was ahead of its time.
Slight correction. This is an ap2 s2000(2nd gen) which comes with the f22c 2.2liter 4 banger. But yeah this was a great match up. I have a 2005 white one like this but not cr.
cheemooo The S2000's MSRP was close to a Porsche Boxster 986 and 987 generation. If you're expecting the GR86/BRZ to have 718 Boxster/Cayman levels of performance for sub $30k, you need a brain scan.
20-year-ahead technology.
How did I miss this!!!! Will is the man!
This is why I don’t wanna let go of my s2000 lol
Fascinating
This shows how badass the S2000 was when it first came out.
Great video! would love to see what the BRZ would've done with a small spoiler and front splitter and the S2000 on stock CR suspension.
Yeah I'd like see a stock CR good oem suspension and stock 22 BRZ. With same or similar drivers and same tires/tire sizes to rule that out
The new BRZ is a spiritual successor of my old S2000. NA, equavalent weight/power, and that smile and dimples 😊. Great battle!
The S2K still looks awesome today!!!
S2000 would have won if sun would have left his stock suspension on his s2000 CR.
I crown the s2000.👑
Sad how know body can make a car better than the s2000 for so many years.
PS. I used to own a yellow AP1. 😎
That long right hand turn at speed revealed that oil blow by, need Rainh8r mod for the s2k
Great driving guys. Wish we had top speed on the straight to compare the new fa24 vs the f22.
That cr is nuts
Still to this day in 2022, I’ll pick my AP2 every day, all day..
The s2000, especially the ap1, requires a very proficient driver to wring out its maximum potential. It has much less forgiving driving dynamics when driven at its edge compared to many others. The BRZ is definitely more driver friendly but it handles like a bat out of hell much easier for many drivers. For the actual serious driver, the s2000. For most 99% everyone else, the BRZ is the absolute ticket!
You Right.
I wish it was a stock base model brz and a stock base model s2000. Probably hard to find an example like that on the S2000 side of things though given the age.
That’s awesome to see these results, I have a s2000 and my cousin has a brz with a turbo but I have tires and suspension, let’s just say I walked away from him on the track
Not a Honda guy but I would pick an S2000 over anything in it's range
.8 seconds, most likely just driver at that point, he slaps on new suspension, who knows what alignment and just goes at it.
Great Thansk
I guess it's the U.S safety regulations and liability issues, there's still not an automotive video magazine like the Japanese Best Motoring in the modern days America. I would love to see a group of sports cars doing head to head against each others on a track in a monthly basis...
I figured the BRZ would win since there isn’t a power advantage with the S2k anymore more but this was a great comparison with great drivers.
It helps that this the top trim s2000
Still take the S2000 by a long shot
FAXS
After this not sure.. I owned an AP1 before. But I rather buy the GR86/BRZ considering that they are equipped with new tech and can beat not just any s2000 but a CR that’s Modded. And the s2000 are about the same price if not more for a better low mile.
It's a testament to both cars to be honest.
We couldn't agree more!
i own a 2022 brz and i gotta say, i’ll still gladly pick an s2000 any day (:
Considering the strict emission rules, this is pretty good.
That's wild good race! Honda Power 🤙🏼💪🏼
Could you share the detail spec of BRZ’s tire for 17 and 18’. And which one is quicker? Thanks
The s2000 was fitted with aftermarket parts...
Glad the powertrains were stock. Don't need to immediately throw boost into a car to make it fun/fast.
Love the BRZ and S2k owned both. Prefer the brz.If you like car movies be on the lookout for FOUR AMIGOS releasing September 9 on Amazon.
We need more Driver Battle Content :)
Forget the trucks brah....
Exciting new episodes are in the works! ;)
Perhaps.. Honda should bring the S2000 back
The comparison we needed and deserved. Seems like the BRZ is much easier at the limit based on the hand motion of Will vs Son.
I wouldn't call a six-figure car affordable by any means, but it's great to see that there is an affordable car out there that can beat the club racer with relatively basic mods and give similar experience at the track.
Not all CR's are 6 figure cars and it being a CR isn't that relevant here. Only really the lip and wing differentiate it from a standard AP2 from a performance perspective. They both help a bit but it's not that relevant.
@@jub07 a little more than that for a stock CR there’s suspension differences, tire size differences, and steering rack. Maybe a few smaller things I’m forgetting. Suspension and tire size are obviously different for the CR in the video which can be applied to any s2000.
@@andrewhonein I know the differences darn well. This car has aftermarket suspension so the CR dampers/springs are irrelevant. CR tire size differences are irrelevant because modified. If swaybars are still OEM, they're different than the normal models, sure. This is a modded car and all suspension tuning is meant to work as a system. Steering rack is quicker in the CR compared to AP2 models and same as AP1 models. That does not make a difference in lap time.
The point is that for the lap time comparison, the fact that it is a CR is irrelevant aside from the slight differences the CR wing and lip make. Calling this a 100k car is wrong for multiple reasons and with a normal AP2 model, the performance comparison would not be meaningfully changed.
@@jub07I pointed out those differences are irrelevant for this video. I can tell by your videos you know s2ks I was just putting that out there if others were to come across it. But yes calling it a 100k car is irrelevant especially since that one on BaT was an outlier but everyone and their mothers is running with it. Also iirc the formula s car was originally salvage title and was brought back to life to do what it does best.
The longer wheelbase + the engine being mounted much lower to the ground makes the BRZ easier to drive at the limit. The front wheels feel so planted whenever the rear steps out. The S2000 is harder to drive at the limit, but is otherwise a sharper feeling car.
Longevity wise the S2000 is a better buy IMO compared to the 86. My brothers S2000 has 250k miles and my 13 BRZ spun a bearing at 90k. Time will tell with the newer motor in the 2022 models, but the S2000 has already been proven to last.
Yes, buying a 23 year old car with 250k miles is way better option that brand new car with warranty.
@@DuBstep115I bet you’re eating your words now with all the blown Subaru motors😅. RTV jamming up oil passages and bad oiling while doing spirited right turns on a track, sounds like a Subaru thing for sure. Just look at the suspension parts between these two cars as well, Toyota looks like they pulled the control arms out of the Prius bin😂
@@Whateva67 Confirmation bias, I will stick with what I said 👍🏻
Can they switch cars please an do the battle again just to see the results?
How big of a difference is the 4.44 final drive on the s2k from factory?
In my heart the S2000 still the winner lols
God I miss my 04 AP2 so damn bad...
let's go brz!! 😎😎
debate? you can buy a BRZ/GR86 any color, any trim, manual, auto any day of the week for a very reasonable price. You can even get special models: Trueno, special edition/10th anniversary, or a TS with nice Brembo brakes. Great performance, safety and again..reasonable price. You could get a GR86 last year for $27,900 MSRP (base model), that is a deal!!! with 3 year warranty. What Toyota/Subaru put on the market for that price is unbeatable.
Not bad, a car worth half the price of an s2000(at msrp, adjusted for inflation) can match it. Technically not all things were equal because they weight the same stock but the s2k had carbon seats and an a carbon top so it likely weighed a little less and it also had upgraded breaks too. But that BRZ still managed to match it.
People seem to forget if the s2k was sold today it would like 55k it may be a older car but it was expensive when it came out
It was so close and I predicted the S2000 to win by a hair. Looking at the lap, the S2000 driver missed two major apexes and I think that was the difference.
S2k all day
Will is such a great driver