Modified 2022 Subaru BRZ Review - Better than Modified 2006 AP2 S2000?
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- čas přidán 26. 03. 2022
- This one's for the nerds! I recently found that a stock Honda AP2 S2000 is a better driving car than a stock 2nd gen Subaru BRZ, but what happens when both cars are modded with suspension, alignment, and other basic bolt ons?
/ zygrene
2006 Honda S2000 mod list:
Feal 441 coilovers (14k/12k)
Spoon Rigid Collars
17x8, 17x9 wheels
Hankook Ventus V12 evo2 225/45ZR17, 255/40ZR17
Ballade 330mm front rotors, RX8 caliper with Mustang rear rotors
Raybestos ST43 pads
Tanabe Medallion exhaust
2022 Subaru BRZ mod list:
Shaftworks coilovers (6k/9k)
Perrin front sway bar
Rota SS-10 (18x8.5+44)
Champiro SX2 RS 245/40R18
Powerstop Track Day Spec pads
CSG exhaust
Tomei equal length header - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Definitely not a rate issue. Appears to be more like a bumpstop / travel issue. 9kg/mm is only 500in/lbs which is around 2Hz wheel rate. Nothing crazy at all. Change the shock body height or get extended tophats for the rear.
It's not my "spec" lol - it's Shaftworks.
Gotta get the droop set up correctly and it's all good over any sort of reasonable bumps (coming from another Shaftworks owner)
@@DocWalt Agreed, too many factors at play for people to be placing blame on the shock valving. Need to first confirm if the coilovers (ie setting correct droop & bump travel) were installed properly by the installer. I’d say a very large majority of people still think the shock length adjustment is the ride height adjustment, which is 100% incorrect.
FWIW, I have a lot of thudding and bottoming out on my 2nd BRZ with coilovers too. 500/900.
@@shakespeareracing7822 I don't have bottoming out, but I do have typical spherical top hat clunks.
The platform is heavily travel compromised, it's really annoying to get the shocks set up properly to maximize bump and droop
I’ve said it before and ill say it a million times over. The sheer fact that the S2000 is even still in the question speaks volumes. Nuff said haha
Its the only 4 cylinder sport compact that stands relevant. Ppl will say its a 20 year old car being compared to brand new car. no new rwd 4 cylinder has been able to compare
@@ClearWater7.62 its sad to think that honda KNOWS they can make an amazing car like this when they want, but they dont really plan to anymore
...exactly...like if Terry Bradshaw got on the field with Tom Brady...
But im liking the new gr86. Also many over look the rx8 and nc mx5. Throw a k in one of those cars and would be a blast.
I have an S2000 and love it, but what people forget is it was $32K MSRP car. That's like 50K in today's money. That's why its so good when comparing it to new budget sports cars. It wasn't a budget car in it's day.
It's awesome to still see S2000s benchmarked against newer cars. Just shows how advanced and great a car it was for it's time.
its crazy how the ap2 s2000 is still relativly comaparable to the brz fa24 variant
in a way yes but it's also not a fair comparison. Adjusted for inflation, the s2000 would have cost 45-50k. The twins are at $27k. add in the fact today's regulations makes it extremely difficult to build a car without tons of govt regulated safety features, the fact the twins are as good as 50k car is proof in the pudding itself. The s2k should really be used to compare cars in the 40k price range if we wanted to be logical instead of appealing to mob mentality.
It seems that frs people are low key s2000 fan boys that upgraded from a Miata and are upset that their modern car can still be beat by a 20 year old car.
@@petermiller9904 a stock s2000 is not faster then a stock 2022 brz on track and probally slower in the real world due to torque gap and mordern aero there very similiar in performance sure you can say its more raw or fun but those are subjective the brz objectivly a better car is far more practicle comfrotable quite and fuel efficient and is just as rewarding to drive or as close as a car can be into today age and the s2000 back in its day was never meant to compete with the brz/mx5 categeory it was gunning for for the likes of top model non performance slk or z4 which in today money will command a 50-60k usd price tag at that price your talking about mustang mach 1 camaro ss1le c43amg z4 m40i those cars would rape the s2000 in any objective test you like to mention no diss to the s2000 it was competetive for its day and a great collector car with racing pedeigree but lets not kid ourself by saying that the s2000 is just as fast as a modern brz therefore s2000 is ahead of its time it wasant the fact that a 27k car today can go toe to toe with a car inflation adusted would be 45-55k today say alot about improvment in tech the s2000 wasnt even the fastest car in its class back in its day the z4 e85 3.0si was faster in a straight line and is similar in price.
@@petermiller9904 I mean if u can't handle facts over your feelings, then believe whatever you want. The funny thing about the truth is that's still the truth regardless of your belief in it.
I feel so proud! Thanks for giving my car a nice little workout. Definitely a fun road.
All your friends seem like really cool people.
Great video as always. Appreciate the work and thought that goes into these!! Been watching your journey for years and finally picked up an 05 S2000 when I graduated college :)
Best year s2000
Quality of the videos lately is top notch, keep it up! I got PTSD when Seigo mentioned the transmission fluid 😂
Thanks for the shoutout on the rear brakes!
These videos are insanely good. Love both of these cars and your friends are good sports for letting you do this
Also it's pretty exciting for me that you had such high praise for the modified BRZ's turn-in. Looking forward to making that happen for mine.
Glad you enjoy them! Yup - it's crazy how much proper suspension, alignment, and tires will improve the car's turn in.
@@Zygrene a good alignment makes more difference than you'd think on a new car.
My 13 brz was either 0 or slightly positive camber from factory.
@@Zygrene does the BRZ actually handle better than the s2000 at the corners?
Met Julius at the s2k megameet. Cool dude! 😎
Can't wait to see footage on his channel.
Really enjoyed and appreciated this comparison review, great job as always Zygrene, knocked it out the park once again 💪👍
Anticipated video. Waiting for a track comparison with 200TW tires on both cars.
Just installed some SakeBomb DFV Ohlins 12K F 13K R and I love them. First coilover after having 4 s2000’s and I absolutely love them. Can’t wait to try them on the repaved SOW CW
host- "nice suspension , its very complient"
owner- (scared shitless) "thats what i was looking for " 🥴
🤣🤣😭
Nice video. Now I would like to see this BRZ against a modified ND2 Miata.
You can tell these guys know what they are talking about. Refreshing
Keep up the great work. Owned a s2k looking at buying a 22gsr
I have the normal Feal 441s on my Miata (shown in profile picture) and they ride so well while giving enough performance for a weekend canyon car.
Great choice!
Don’t like the understeer of the BRZ? Get the GT86. I would say that it’s very common knowledge that Toyota tuned the 86 differently and the 86 is more prone to oversteer while the BRZ is tuned more safely. At Car And Driver best driver’s car event, the 86 lapped faster than the BRZ because of that very reason. (I live in the US by the way lol)
Or just buy sway bars 💁🏻♂️
That’s my boy Julius!
Still rocking the homecoming decal sticker👌🏼
Just what we asked for 👍
Love that back road! We should cruise bro!
Great video man. I am also intrigued to hear what people think about Penske and other high-end coilovers for the GR86/BRZ platform. Motion Control Suspension (MCS) seem to also be really hot for track and autocross setups too.
MCS is top teir in my opinion. What they can do to an M3 is mind blowing
Raceseng has a Penske setup, but costs around $8k. The MCS 1 way option is very tempting at
@@shakespeareracing7822 I agree 2-3 way set ups are difficult to dial in. For my style and skill an MCS set up will be more than enough. They also make it easy to upgrade to a 2-3 way if you so choose.
"I really wanna see how the suspension FEALs" nice
Great video. Disagree with you on the fake engine sound. I disabled it on my gr86 and am so happy with the natural sound. It will sound loud enough after a while, and is just perfect with an exhaust. I actually now enjoy revving to redline. Whereas before I couldn't wait to get out of first gear because of the awful sound.
All those bumps, reminds me of a Wisconsin backroad.
Great comparison ! For those that want the rear of the BRZ to move around a little more and reduce understeer at brisk backroad speeds, how much camber can you get away with on the street with Pilot Sport 4 tires without shortening tire life too much(in the maximum range of 35% less tread life) ?
Mate, the understeer can be fixed with a $30 set of front whiteline camber bolts. It's because stock they have basically zero front camber.
Been hearing whispers of people doing Sub 2s at BW CW13 on the new 86s just w/RT660s
Xidas! (They use ast dampers). Only coils I’ve had that are properly stiff and yet insanely compliant on the street.
I have an 02 s2000 that I love to death but, I’m always on the fence of whether I should dedicate it strictly to track or just leave it alone as a enjoyable weekend car. It drives amazingly and ive taken it to the track a couple times. it’s just difficult to comfortably keep driving it like that. Mainly because I know if anything happens to it I can’t afford to get another one, especially with the value continuously shooting up
Just found your channel and subbed. I’m from the Bay Area as I believe you are. Was wondering what road were you on in this video and what other roads you would recommend in the Bay Area. I usually do Redwood Road, Mines Road and Niles Canyon/ Palomares Road.
He should throw some upper offset bushings and add more front camber.
I'm glad the S2000 is still relevant in the current market.
The BRZ with MCS suspension is a monster for TT/ST5 class. Might have to sell my ap2 to buy one..
Its more than relevant, its shits all over the 'current market'.
@@maxymillion7480 In nostalgia not performance.
@@lw1878 so you saying the S2000 underperforms compared to the newer comparable cars? 🤔🤔
@@lw1878 Nope, it still performs better than its similarly priced rivals, including the ND2 Miata.
@@maxymillion7480 similarly priced?? please get a reality check. the s2000 in today's money is about 45-50k inflation adjusted... it would be compared against cars like the supra.
Really need to see the S2000 vs the GR86 as the suspension is far more aggressive, so it would be more 1:1 comparison
When are you going to install those RCE SS1 coils on your brz?
Turn in is sharper than the s2k or just sharper than the old one
What kind of wheels is the brz rocking? They look like they would fit perfectly for my wrx
Try some Tien EDFC electronic adjustable dampers using gyro data. Too bad Koni doesn't have the 'special active shocks' for frs/gr86, they are perfect on my mustang 5.0. corners flat and glides over rough bumps.
Looks like redwood Rd next to lake chabot park where I usually ride my grave bike.
There is to much to speak about coilover, i do setup/alignment every days for work, i can tell you for a fact holins are good if you buy ttx but not road and track like most everyone install and think they are good, they work well on road use but when you go on track just forget about, springs soft and damping to soft, kw clubsport does little be better then holins r&t, and we speak about 2.5k+ average price range, if you want really good suspension the way to go is competition stuff, but average price is 5k+, after that’s bumps/curbs and stuff like this will be copied and make your ride/push to the limit more comfortable….. in my s2000 i run 16k square with kw competition 2way very good suspension.
a k24 swapped S2000 probably wins the contest
S2k is great but old brz will have a huge aftermarket aswell as lots of parts when things go bad lol
Buying Spare parts for a s2k is like finding diamonds in unicorn poop
"Whats one more S2000?" Yup you'll compare S2000s till the end of time! 👍
We have 500/600# (about 9/11) Nitrons on my buddies, and I can say the ride is nothing like this, I think it’s the valving not the spring rates.
Now, Nitrons are custom valved 4K suspension… but worth it.
Here in Texas, I was also advised to try the nitrons as well which I am also debating on the spring rate. I also want to try racecomps theory of putting the gr86 rear springs and sway bar to the brz to see if I get the balance advantages from both brz/gr86 with a camber plate.
@@squareenixffost The RCE are great as well. They come with the pros (and limitations) of being a KW-variant. I don't think you can go wrong with either, but I definitely think Nitron figured out something special on the 86. The S2000 Nitrons are nothing to write home about, but the way nitron has figured it out on the GR86 is something special
@@karltaht2370 That sounds very promising. I already tried KWs. Ohlins, MCE and even the cheaper brands as well. Haven't tried RCE, shaftwerks, JRZ, Nitron and probably other more brands lol. Even my previous s2000 was on godspeed suspension lol. Though just got this car two months ago and now in the group where I am annoyed by the ticks, rattling, buzzing, vibrations sounds. Any other words? lol You would expect after 10 years this would have been fixed by now but I guess this is what you get from subaru.
I'd rather the the GR86 looks better than the BRZ but S2000 all day
The problem with the s2k is the cost for a good one now. Definitely a fun car with good lines.
@@wayward03 you get what you pay for.
@@z32luvr bullshit it’s wayyyy over priced right now.
@@DOOMLORDHOKAGE Worth every penny.
@@slimjim77M there is no good reason a 100k mile example should cost anywhere near a new ND2 or GR86. And that was before the used market went full retard.
16 year apart Dame s2k still the best .
May I ask the wheels style of the white BRZ?
On road course take the s2000 everyday including Sunday 😀
I'm curious how that transmission feels on that 22' BRZ, synchros and all. I noticed how dude crunched in between gears and for sure didn't think a 22' car would have that issue ? i have that issue on my 91' from time to time..
The 22 brz shifts a big harsh when you are going quick. It can be fixed if you're double clutching it.
@@VinRZ so, would you say that having a (hydraulic) clutch is better than a older, mechanical one?
MCA Suspension... the best
Do a BMW Z3 vs Nissan 370Z
Or 350Z vs Z4
Hello, is your s2000 Sebring silver?
s2000 owner here. :)
That is all.
Idk man i ran a bunch of motorsports damper and they are never that bumpy. They absorb bumps better then oem setups even on high spring rates lol my guy needs to sit in a car with proper track suspension and his life will change
what wheels were on the s2k?
Why not get ah exhaust?
Sweet just a header, you get a bit of hair raising torque…
Good content and comparison. That BRZ looked super bouncy with your heads bobbling all over the place - your heads were much more relaxed and composed in the s2k.
I'm lost with how 6/9K in the BRZ is so much stiffer than 14/12K in the s2k. Is it because of the macpherson front? They both have double-A arm rears. Or is it something to do with motion ratio (which I don't quite understand)?
Brz is more bounce because bad quality damper, compared to the ones in the s2000 even them not so good quality stuff, in my s2000 i have 16/16 with kw competition 2way and is not bounce at all
@@andre82s2k Shaftworks aren't bad dampers, likely just need to get the droop/shock length set correctly. It looks like it's on bumpstops.
@@DocWalt yes that’s can be a possibility
For me there is no comparison. Hard to beat an 8,300 RPM+ redline paired with a Honda gearbox. Plus full double wishbone and the front-midship layout... it is one of the greatest driver's cars ever made. If you don't stop making S2000 videos I might have to trade my FD for one O_O
I'd love to have an ap1 or ap2. It's just hard to find a cheap and clean s2k nowadays. And thing about sk2 is that we have to keep it at vtec range to get power on the track. Depending on the configuration of the track, some time it might need to down shift one more gear to find that power. Where brz/gr86 peek torque is at 3k ish, so it's easier to find that power during a corner.
Not a knock on the s2k, big fan of it.
Bla bla bla double wishbone. Any suspension type can handle well if tuned correctly. C6 ZO6 comes with front leaf springs yet beat all the super cars from its time with less power.
@@eddieyakin5528 true but the Vette you mentioned has a double wishbone :) the leafspring replace the springs but the control arms and double wishbone set up is there and it definitely improves the handling all the other conditions being equal. Best Porsches traditionally do not have double wishbones set ups but still behave incredibly well. Having said so the new 992 GT3 now has front double wishbone which other conditions being equal made the car even better. Long story short is double wishbones are well regarded for a reason
@@eddieyakin5528 you have no idea what you are talking about. Springs and control arm suspension are two different things.
@@eddieyakin5528 Corvetts have had double wish suspension since C5. Stop smoking it makes you confuse things
Solution to the brz understeer problem:
Buy a gr86
^
Solution is to modify the BRZ. With the stiffer rear lateral stiffness the GR86 doesnt have, the BRZ has the more linear and more controlled break away. It's the better canvas for oversteer and lap times.
Or give the BRZ a slightly bigger rear bar…maybe another 2-3mm
@@876yuugt ok but the 86 is sexier 🥰
@@Dragon228833 then just change the bumpers. BRZ has the better and more linear track throttle settings and stiffer bushings.
*bro can u try an rs3*
Omg someone actually gets it.
He said yeah there’s a torque dip but that doesn’t really matter on the track.
Over and over I hear complaints about the dip.
It’s like hey if you are getting a torque dip then rev it more. Keep it in the powerband.
The thing is it just doesn’t have a lot of torque to begin with neither does s2000.
That Honda induction note ... Its just so sad that nothing sounds like that anymore ... not even new Hondas...
But new Hondas have torque now and turbo sounds lol
Not gonna lie 6K/9K doesn’t make sense on these cars. 1/1 F and 1/.71 R motion ratio means most people run square spring setup. Just my .02 cents
This is a classic case of theory vs reality. Suspension builder is aiming for 'flatride' by setting rear frequency roughly 10% higher than the front (2Hz front / 2.25Hz rear approx.) then using the bigger front bar to bring the balance back to something reasonable. But as you say most coilovers don't run this setup, and from my experience there is a good reason why you don't see what this car has very often.
It’s a comparison not a review so drive as many s2000’s as you want
neat
$2000 suspension. $50 tyres. Priorities correct.
I’ve heard the GR86 tends to oversteer unlike the BRZ that tends to understeer. Curious how true that is. Wish someone on CZcams would test
same and it's making me choose the 86 however I've daily drove my Hawkeye wrxfor 3 years and never had any understeer issues with that so I find it kind of hard to believe that a new driver focused Subaru would have noticeable understeer
@@griffin_kith6214 That's exactly what I was thinking
CARPRIME over in Japan has already tested this and has confirmed the GR86 does oversteer more than the BRZ.
Anybody have a new brz in socal?
Seriously. We need to know how the S2000 compares to everything, like a Dodge Stratus for instance.
There goes 4th gear -_-...... @13:00
So did Seigo sell the dc5?
Yep
@@jasonparraga3391 dang for real? That’s crazy.
It took 16 years to finally be better than s2k.
Be better? Nope still isn’t
I am wondering how a BRZ (new or old) with ST XTA coilovers compares on that road? I currently have a Gen 1 BRZ with Tein Flex Coilovers. I find the Tein setup good as a budget (entry) Coilover which is a competent street Coilover that isn't too harsh but has the ability for mild track use. However, I am looking for a more controlled and compliant ride for daily street use and wondering if its worth upgrading to an XTA or Greddy or KW v3.
XTA is still too cheap. If you want road manners buy ohlins and if you want something for the track go mcs.
Not meaning to be negative, as I appreciate the content, but non stop talk of coilovers and which ones to go for and spring rates etc, I was wanting to hear about your opinions of each cars chassis. Because any car can improve its handling with good quality coilovers, but if a car has a cr@ppy chassis, then it's not really worth buying imo.
Also, I'm no expert, but I've always been under the impression that the best cure for understeer, is to go for wider rear wheels with a rear strut brace.
Both understeer in stock form you fool 😂
Nothing compares to the quality, reliability and mostly the driving experience of a S2000. Period.
Brz didn’t seem to do much to much for ya
Loved the front end but the rear end needs work. Giggity.
That car is too stiff for the road.
Funny you are comparing a modern technological car to a older car that is 20 years old yet the s2000 is a better car.
S2000 was more of an upscale drivers car when it was released... was the holy grail of Honda’s at its time.. the BRZ/GR86 is meant to be more of a sports car for a broader audience.
still looking for a review that says something is better than s2000...this guy is too biased to be a reviewer.
I guess you’ve never driven one or you would understand.
poor dude u just tore his car apart right in front of him...
Seigo is a close friend. We don't sugar coat anything to each other. Also, Shaftworks coilovers are proven on the racetrack. My point was that race tuned suspension usually equates to limited compliance on bumpy roads.
GR86 is way better than the s2000 and a brz on twisties. Stop messing with the suspensions and get good tires lol
First
😳
Always loved the S2k (esp. AP1) but rose tinted glass aside, the fact is technology marches on, new cars like the GR86/BRz are just better.
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