@@FinDan07 Non-book reader? things might be a littlebit more nuanced than you realize Edit: Reading it back now, my own comment has way more elitist vibes than intended 😂 Just wanted to put out there that "non-book readers" discussing the films, theorising and drawing conclusions actually fills me with joy. I loved the movies so much, and although not as expansive as the books (= impossible for movie), I'm happy that some of the book's magic has been captured on-screen. This means that more people get to enjoy/in touch with this amazing series in some way, which is almost objectively a net positive thing.
In a way, Jamis did show Paul the way of the desert. His death proved that Paul was worthy of entering the Freemen world and he learned everything about the desert eventually
I notice how he takes Jamis’s advice at his most desperate moments. He values the relationship he could have had with this man, even though that timeline is closed off from him.
It wasn’t just Jamis’ death that taught him. Paul, using his growing prescience, could actually see into the other possible futures where Jamis was alive and his mentor. He had access to memories of events that never came to pass. Paul learned the ways of the desert from lessons taught to him by Jamis in those alternate realities.
I like how once Paul becomes the Kwisatz Haderach, the shot we see of him envisioning stabbing Feyd-Rautha is the exact same as the one from the duel, unlike every vision of his we've seen before
That shot meant a lot of things. It gave the "narrow way through" scene multiple meanings. Also, it spoke to how the Atreides would knowingly walk into a trap.
Isn't Paul only kinda the Kwisatz Haderach? His future-sight is only partially unlocked and unreliable, which is why his visions aren't always correct, and it's because Jessica did indeed jump the gun and the real Kwisatz Haderach would have been the offspring of an Atreides and Harkonnen. It's only his son with Chani that turns out to be the real Kwisatz Haderach. I could be wrong/misremembering though.
I just hope they do it a bit different than the book... and focus a lot on the holy war... rather than after the war as in the book (if i remember correctly)
@@adriannn1180 as a fan of Denis probably he'll focus on things after the war, I don't know why but it seems like the conflict for him is not that important
@@Daniel_0liveira I hope he at leasts takes time to show the absolute devastation caused by pauls holy war. Im sure he will since that is like....a really important part of the story lol
@@sofreshsogreen Is that so? I never really looked close enough to notice. I suppose it’s fitting either way, since Paul had visions of being stabbed by both Chani and Jamis
The important thing to note: these visions are muddied specifically for the purpose of Cinema. In the books, before Paul even drinks the water of life, or has an awakening, his visions are always true and always happen exactly as he sees them. In the first book, the first scene, he speaks to the Bene Gesserit and he explicitly tells her everything he foresees comes true - in the movies, Paul says the visions happen but "not exactly" as he sees them. Paul, from the moment of being stuck in the tent with Jessica and inhaling spice, is fully aware of her parentage and what his future is. He foresees an unstoppable path, one that he theorizes he can only break by way of destroying everyone is his immediate vicinity, including himself and Chani. Paul, in the books, is an almost robotic person when he is going through his visions. Nothing shakes him. He observes facial features and body gestures to 'guess' what he should be saying, hence why he comes off as so charismatic. A lot of conflict and visual ambiguity is used in these movies specifically because, if Paul outright says everything that will happen (like he does in the books), then the movie wouldn't be very interesting for those that haven't read the books. In fact in the books, Paul specifically states he sees a possible future where he is standing over the Barren and says "Hello, Grandfather." Of course, in the books, Paul isn't the one that does the Barren in - it's his sister. You can really appreciate how much effort Villeneuve put into this film, as he positions Chani's character as oppositional from the start, as her book counter-part literally never does anything against Paul and obeys him to a fault.
These films are a perfect example of how to deviate from the source material, while still staying true to it's essence. Peter Jackson largely got away with it in LotR as well. I wish more film/show creators would do the same.
Not what I remember from the books. I remember he specifically takes the water of life because he did not forsee Gurney almost killing Jessica. He does this because he wants a clear vision, not just predictions of possible futures. Its in Dune Messiah where I remember his visions are so good that he is in lockstep with the present and the future…
Actually no, at some point in the book when Paul and Jessica are crossing the desert to find the Fremen, Paul notes he had a vision of this exact scenery but with Duncan very much alive, so he does also see possible futures in book also, it's just very much less noticeable because you don't *see* his visions.
i'm sorry but he constantly walks the tightrope to the dwindling futures without a jihad (if there was more than one, i'm unsure) "He had to remain on the central line of the time storm he could see in the future. There would come an instant when it could be unravelled, but only if he were where he could cut the central knot of it." (p.381) some more from the end: "Even the faint gaps were closed now. Here was the unborn jihad..." (p.452) "His legions would rage out from Arrakis even without him... They needed only the legend he already had become. He had shown them the way, given them mastery even over the Guild which must have the spice to exist." (p.452) my interpretation is that Paul was working against himself and couldn't bring himself to do anything extreme like die in the desert before meeting the Fremen, or destroy his image after he met them. he could only think and do as a duke's son and natural leader would, not to say that he was fated but that he was slightly blinded to his natural charisma spurring the oncoming jihad into reality
Without directly teaching him that is, Paul learns from Jamis from seeing "what if" possibilities which is so amazing and bizarre in a cosmic sort of way.
@@Gadget-Walkmen I don't think it was a "what if". All of the visions came true. Jamis taught Paul the ways of the desert. The way is kill or be killed. The vision also showed Paul the proper respect to show to a fallen Fremen, the embracing of his hand as they pass. And the boy in Paul died when he slew Jamis, so technically, Jamis did kill Paul. All of it came true. It was just a matter of interpretation.
@@Maniac742 It is “what if” because Paul literally did die in one of his visions and some of his visions did NOT come true on the way that he saw it as he’s just seeing possibilities of what COULD happen and Paul uses his free-will to change those points in foresight history to favor. Anything that Paul learns from his visions is just Paul learning from all the different outcomes that could happened so he can triumph in the real world. Jamis teaches Paul in a different reality when they become friends and Paul is trying to learn from him in all those different possibilities that aren’t set in stone to hardline reality. Trying to get into “technicality” would just get all kinds of confusing so I wouldn’t say that but say that Paul changes what he initially saw and learns from what hasn’t happened yet.
I think the intro scene in Part One actually happened and Villeneuve just used the same shots as callback to remind the audience that Paul is living in a constant deja vu. I think some of the visions may get a callback in the next movie. I fully expect to see the shot of Paul overlooking the legions of Fremen from the ship to happen with Irulan. Appreciate the edit!
Not only that. The structure of both movies is also similar. I don‘t have the files to compare but the harvester save in 1 and the attack on part 2 are more or less at the same length.
If i remember correctly, Paul is first seen waking up in Part 1, so you can potentially imagine that the opening of the first movie is also a part of that dream "Dreams are Messages From The Deep" as it were.
Thank you for your comment! On the issue of the intro scene of Part One, I believe it to be a vision and the signs that point to it being a vision are the following: A) The song that plays during the scene is called 'Dream of Arrakis' B) Paul wakes up immediately after the scene C) Chani repeats the line "Arrakis is so beautiful when the sun is low" in Dune Part Two D) We see repeated shots, notably a a close-up to Chani's face and that of the spice rolling over the sand E) "Dreams are messages from the deep" F) The title card has a transition effect similiar to what we see when Paul has his visions
Even earlier in the movie, when Paul and Gurney are training, Paul says "I can tell you by your footsteps Gurney Halleck." as Gurney is walking in to the training room. czcams.com/video/kb4Uy8sU5eI/video.htmlsi=t8mdjXjnOzEnDfJb&t=2
@@darkphoenix2 no. Rewatch part one it's at the part where they fly out to the spice harvester to rescue the crew from the harvester. He falls to his knees and says that line and its a vision of whats to come and we saw that in part two.
@@Jakester1472 Certainly could be part of a vision, and I like that interpretation a lot but he's just saying the line, there's no actual "vision" at least that we can see
The prescient scenes with Jamis are an interesting little subplot, which is unique to DV's adaption. Basically, in the glimpsed timeline in which Jamis is alive to be Paul's mentor, what happened to create it is that Jessica was raped and murdered by the Harkonnen because Paul failed to use the Voice to get her free on the Harkonnen transport ship. Paul was thrown out into the desert while she remained on the ship bound and gagged, and he never saw her again. He's then picked up by Stilgar's Fremen, and without Jessica's presence being an aggravating factor, Jamis was acquiescent to allowing Paul to be taken in by the others. This timeline's Paul is much angrier, and fully embraces the Fremen jihad. He's the sole survivor of his family, his rage intensified by Jessica's death and his guilt over being unable to use the Voice to save her (and his unborn sister). This Paul, mentored by Jamis, is so brutal and detached from his past that he allows the Fremen to subjugate Caladan, the Atreides homeworld -- this is another prescient scene glimpsed during Part 1, showing Fremen troop drop ships assaulting Caladan while Paul, Jamis, and Chani look down on the battle from a ship ramp. This never happens in the true timeline, and it's all because Jessica is alive and Jamis is dead.
Thanks! This seriously answered most of my questions about jamis. I was kind of confused about the visions, but I understood that some of his visions isn't reliable.
I think the holy war vision of Chani and Paul looking down on the Fremen on, what seemed to be Caladan, will have their positions reversed in Messiah. Chani will be looking down like Paul, but looking down in horror at what the Fremen have become, while Paul will be rearing his head back, looking down with authority and supremacy. How does this happen? Perhaps Paul eventually convinces Chani to visit some of his Fedaykin on Caladan to try and bring her back.
I think Chani is already pregnant. She might come back for the sake of their children. I think the vision of Caladan will be Jessica returning there along with Gurney and the Fedaykin.
@@Tochi68 I think that’s a possibility. But I don’t think she’s pregnant with Ghani or Leto II yet if so, just with their first son, and perhaps he dies early in the film. The timing needed to age Alia for the film wouldn’t add up otherwise.
@@CuttingEdges I think so too. DV could use Leto I as a pain point to exacerbate the war as well as to cast suspicions to other characters. This might be a good way to showcase how guild navigators could somehow block Paul's prescience.
Damn I didnt even notice that either way he still gets stabbed in the SAME place with Chani's knife. No matter what he was going to get stabbed, it was just a matter of by who, how, or why.
It's incredible to me that they weren't really visions, they were more predictions/deductions about what could possibly happen. Like it's not Chani and Jamis he saw, but a Fremen girl he knew he would marry and a random Fremen he knew would "teach" him.
Exactly. Dune is much more interesting when you go into it with the belief that magic doesn't exist in this universe. His ability to deduce isn't much different from the existence of Menats (Human Computers). But it's on such a level beyond anything anyone has seen, making seem like magic or "holy" to normal people.
@@KingPWNinaterI think this is the best and proper way to watch Dune based on reading a bit of the book. The whole thing is set in the future, OUR future, for a reason. All this _seems_ like magic and fantasy, but predicting weather patterns would also seem like magic to a person from 6,000 B.C. (Dune is set 8,000 years in the future). The book is constantly breaking down any chance that these prophecies are "real," and in reality they're just Bene Gesserit implants; the movie also does this as well, though not as heavily. When viewed with this cynical, grounded view, Paul's ascendance to the Lisan Al Gaib and holy war proclamation is MUCH more insidious and terrifying. We aren't watching a Chosen One finally accept his grand title, we're watching a king manipulate zealous masses to fight a war that his family was engaged in. There's no grand plan, it's all just political manipulation and deception.
They weren't concrete visions INTILL he drank the water of life and fully became the Kwisatz Haderach. Paul is seeing "what if" POSSIBILITIES of what COULD happen but not definitive outcomes.
Denis has crafted a DaVinci with this adapatation. Deep concepts, multilayered visuals that burn themselves into your mind. Paul's visions vs reality is such a creative, albeit efficient way of capturing the greater scope of the book. Fun to interpeet as well. This is not the standard big budget film experience. We are all witnesses to something special.
I love the moments where Paul has dejavu. We can actually empathize with Paul, like when Chani says “Arrakis is beautiful when the sun is low.” It’s like a little detail only we as the viewers and Paul knows that no one else knows.
I don’t think the intro of Part 1 is a vision. It seems more objective for the audience’s sake, even though it transitions into Paul dreaming of Chani which is shot from his PoV.
I think it’s 100% a vision. It literally transitions into Paul waking up on Caladan after the title, and then the scenes are referenced throughout Part II. I don’t get how you can deny it.
@CuttingEdges don't forget the fact that Paul waking up is the follow up shot after Chani says "And who will our next oppressors be?" Paul: " It's me, baby. I'm yours."
@squidwardstesticles5914 he said it whilst he was in a trance from his first encounter with spice. We didn't see the vision, but he was clearly seeing something. Also, he was sort of whispering it, so Guerney wouldn't have heard the first time and wouldn't get the call back the second time
I thought I saw that the first time I saw the film but wasn't sure, went back three times to be certain haha. Btw I think it shows the knife as it sticks out of Paul's shoulder rather than feyd?
“Do you often Dream things just as they happen?” I noticed a detail in part 2 where Chani looks back at Paul and it was one of his visions in the first movie he had before they met fuck I love details like that
no its just his own hand. the book said he felt like it was burning into a stump inside the box. the hand of god is a reference which helps establishes arrakeen/fremen culture but it hardly plays into anything in both the book and movie. in the movie "well the hand of god is wreaking havoc on our comms systems" was supposed to be a small complaining joke
@@MonkeMan374-pj9xx I'm aware it's also a reference to the book's description of the Gom Jabbar Box, but since the Hand of God also seemingly depicts a deformed handprint, there might be some symbolic link, to tie Paul and his destiny to Arrakis and prophecies, I'spose
It seems the Harvesters in Part One actually had defensive mechanisms like those cluster bombs to drive off the Fremen. It was strange to see that the Harkonnen were so easily killed in Part Two.
The difference with Part One is they didn’t have Paul’s leadership and strategic vision. Maybe he was able to change their strategy or scope out the most vulnerable targets with his limited prescience?
@@chadprice1171 My only question is HOW POWERFULL is that lazer? whats its range? Is it single fire? Because if it has huge range, can fire multiple times, they could have destroyed arakiin with 2 lasguns
@@DuBstep115 But they couldn't, because people wear shields in the city, and that would be fucking stupid to basically risk sweeping a line of nukes that not only detonate IN the city, but at the position of the lasguns themselves, because that's how lasguns interact with shields.
a good one that i dont see in this video is in Part 1 when Paul has the vision in the tent and says "i see fanatical legions worshipping at the shrine of my fathers skull", and then in Part 2 there is a quick shot of fremen praying at a shrine with a skull, and underneath a portrait of Duke Leto
So we have the Caladan Fremen vision and Chani’s burnt face vision left to pay off from these films basically. Are there anymore visions that haven’t had payoffs yet?
@@alastairmcleod3635 I’ve read Messiah. Another vision from part two we haven’t seen fully is the thing with Jessica walking past people starving. That is probably the “Golden Path.” Or the Golden Path is the orange vision thing that the title card for both films is on.
@@ghostmemeboi I don't think it's in this video (because it hasn't come to pass in the movies yet), but in Part One, after Paul sees the Battle of Arrakeen when he's in the tent with Jessica, he sees himself and Chani staring down at his fanatical Fremen legions covered in blood on Caladan
tbh i think the visions of Paul is more like the actual powers of whatever the sisters called him the ability to go through time and space viewing different timelines, different alternate timelines, when and where he wants to a timeline where he might have shot the pistol he took from jamis, which made Chani didn't become his friend or a tiimeline that Chani did the challenge 1-on-1 fight(out of hatred for "shooting her friend" quote her in part 1), leaving only Jamis left to become his friend
i always wonder why they weren't that many visions in part two outside of a grow up alia for mesiash (played by platonic love anya taylor joy) but when when i think about part one was mostly told from pauls perspective and since his mind is mostly a mess full of half and half visions it really makes part one an unique version of "everything told from the main character perspective". or how they called in literature "the Unreliable Narrator". So while part one is about the character overcoming his mind, part 2 is character overcoming his body with him training to be a fremmem, him surviving the water of life and of course him defeating Feyd with pure will. Perhabs part 3 will be him overcoming his soul.
I really wanted Paul to cry when he killed Jamis, it was so bizarre in the books to see the reaction of the Fremen, it's very sad for me that Jamis had to die.
well the harversters from part one i think that was just showing what the fremen were doing before paul and his family took over. just showing how bad it was before they ruled. it wasnt really his visions per say since it was at the start of the movie
I don't want to spoil Dune Messiah, but I do believe there is a vision shown here that will be very important in Part 3 regarding stone burners (don't google the term if you don't want to be spoiled).
i don't want too but if you watch the sountrack of Paul's dream from the first film in youtube you can see a small person walking in the desert... can you guess who?
@@motor4X4kombat If I recall correctly, the actor in that scene was the one who would be playing Hayt, though I don't know if that was intentional foreshadowing.
@@septicshock5663 Nope. The Fremen attacking the Harkonen harvester on part 1 is NOT a vision, it actually happens. The scene looks similar to the one in part 2, but because there's also Fremen attacking two Harkonnen harvesters.
@j.f.l.bousquet1998 Reasons why the Fremen attack on Harkonnen harvesters at the start is a vision; 1) Paul wakes up immediately after it happens 2) Chani's lines of Arrakis being so beautiful when the sun is low is repeated along with the accompanying shots 3) The song that plays during the scene is called 'Dream of Arrakis' 4) We see Jamis and Chani feature it
i really wish they portrayed the dreams like they did in the 1st one, I felt like it was too obvious it was a dream with the shimmering filter over it in the 2nd movie. Thats just me tho
The concept of prescience isn't fully explained in the new Dune, so it can be confusing for new comers. Paul's earlier visions were flawed in the sense that they did not mimic reality, but they did provide him with important information. His vision of Jamis as his friend and then Jamis killing him were not incorrect. Jamis did teach Paul the ways of the desert. The ways of the desert are killing and blood. Jamis also did kill Paul. When Paul killed Jamis, the boy in him died. And the vision provided him with the correct response to the death of a fellow Fremen, the embrace of his hand as he passed. All of the visions provided crucial information, whether they were perfect or not.
I'm wondering... since his visions (especially his earlier ones) kept showing people different from reality, then perhaps the stabbing scene was not actually about him. Yes, he gets handed a knife and gets stabbed in the end, but what about the betrayal? In the vision, a lover betrays their partner. I believe the knife is symbolic of the influence his mother gives him, and the stabbing is about how Paul ends up betraying his love by using his power in order to maintain his position.
Why did he saw Jamis being friendly to him when in reality he wanted to kill him? Its just a possible future where maybe Jamis would have reacted that way
Also I interpreted the “narrow way through” comment also him walking through the thousands of fremen that were gathered as a group in front of that temple entrance. Narrow way through that hoard of fremen
yes and no. The only one i disagree with is when he sees his death. I 100 percent beleive thats how Part 3 will end in a call back to that vision so when we go back and watch aprt 1 itll be a 'OHHHH IT WAS RIGHT THERE! " moment.
Why do I have an aching feeling they’re going to ruin this by going against the books and making Chani kill Paul or something instead of dying from child birth
I don't see this version of Chani giving birth bro. She has seperated herself from him already and I don't think she is currently pregnant unless I missed a hint or something
![Paul & Chani - Their Story [Dune: Part Two]](/img/n.gif)
Paul literally fell in love with the girl of his dreams
And then lost her lol
@@FinDan07 Non-book reader? things might be a littlebit more nuanced than you realize
Edit: Reading it back now, my own comment has way more elitist vibes than intended 😂 Just wanted to put out there that "non-book readers" discussing the films, theorising and drawing conclusions actually fills me with joy. I loved the movies so much, and although not as expansive as the books (= impossible for movie), I'm happy that some of the book's magic has been captured on-screen. This means that more people get to enjoy/in touch with this amazing series in some way, which is almost objectively a net positive thing.
And then ditched her for a political marriage with the Emperor’s daughter.
Chani got mogged by Princess Irulans Diplomaxxing. its over for her, time to ropemaxx
@@Tax_Collector01which is super based actually
In a way, Jamis did show Paul the way of the desert. His death proved that Paul was worthy of entering the Freemen world and he learned everything about the desert eventually
"The strongest leads" as Jamis said
As it was written
I notice how he takes Jamis’s advice at his most desperate moments. He values the relationship he could have had with this man, even though that timeline is closed off from him.
One of my favourite parts of both movies, delivered so beautifully by Denis as well.
It wasn’t just Jamis’ death that taught him.
Paul, using his growing prescience, could actually see into the other possible futures where Jamis was alive and his mentor. He had access to memories of events that never came to pass.
Paul learned the ways of the desert from lessons taught to him by Jamis in those alternate realities.
I like how once Paul becomes the Kwisatz Haderach, the shot we see of him envisioning stabbing Feyd-Rautha is the exact same as the one from the duel, unlike every vision of his we've seen before
That was the outcome he was aiming at. Genius!
That shot meant a lot of things. It gave the "narrow way through" scene multiple meanings. Also, it spoke to how the Atreides would knowingly walk into a trap.
Yes and is 1 sec
I never see the visión of Jessica with Paul walking to South
AND IS FUNNY BECAUSE IS HER POV if you see the scene
Isn't Paul only kinda the Kwisatz Haderach? His future-sight is only partially unlocked and unreliable, which is why his visions aren't always correct, and it's because Jessica did indeed jump the gun and the real Kwisatz Haderach would have been the offspring of an Atreides and Harkonnen. It's only his son with Chani that turns out to be the real Kwisatz Haderach. I could be wrong/misremembering though.
Nah his visions are pretty good. Note that I haven't read further than messiah@@danaolsongaming
Dune part three’s visions in reality will be insane to witness
literally insanity holy XD
61 billions...
I just hope they do it a bit different than the book... and focus a lot on the holy war... rather than after the war as in the book (if i remember correctly)
@@adriannn1180 as a fan of Denis probably he'll focus on things after the war, I don't know why but it seems like the conflict for him is not that important
@@Daniel_0liveira I hope he at leasts takes time to show the absolute devastation caused by pauls holy war. Im sure he will since that is like....a really important part of the story lol
It had never crossed my mind that the knife Feyd stabs Paul with is the same knife that Chani gave him
Is that true? For some reason I thought Paul used a different knife for that fight. Though now I'm not sure why.
So that's what the vision means???
@@BarderBetterFasterStrongerMaybe the engravings and the unevenness of the blade? I thought it was different too.
This is wrong, Paul used Jamis’ knife in his fight with Feyd, both Chani’s knife and Jami’s have distinct markings.
@@sofreshsogreen Is that so? I never really looked close enough to notice. I suppose it’s fitting either way, since Paul had visions of being stabbed by both Chani and Jamis
The important thing to note: these visions are muddied specifically for the purpose of Cinema.
In the books, before Paul even drinks the water of life, or has an awakening, his visions are always true and always happen exactly as he sees them. In the first book, the first scene, he speaks to the Bene Gesserit and he explicitly tells her everything he foresees comes true - in the movies, Paul says the visions happen but "not exactly" as he sees them.
Paul, from the moment of being stuck in the tent with Jessica and inhaling spice, is fully aware of her parentage and what his future is. He foresees an unstoppable path, one that he theorizes he can only break by way of destroying everyone is his immediate vicinity, including himself and Chani.
Paul, in the books, is an almost robotic person when he is going through his visions. Nothing shakes him. He observes facial features and body gestures to 'guess' what he should be saying, hence why he comes off as so charismatic. A lot of conflict and visual ambiguity is used in these movies specifically because, if Paul outright says everything that will happen (like he does in the books), then the movie wouldn't be very interesting for those that haven't read the books.
In fact in the books, Paul specifically states he sees a possible future where he is standing over the Barren and says "Hello, Grandfather." Of course, in the books, Paul isn't the one that does the Barren in - it's his sister. You can really appreciate how much effort Villeneuve put into this film, as he positions Chani's character as oppositional from the start, as her book counter-part literally never does anything against Paul and obeys him to a fault.
These films are a perfect example of how to deviate from the source material, while still staying true to it's essence. Peter Jackson largely got away with it in LotR as well. I wish more film/show creators would do the same.
Not what I remember from the books.
I remember he specifically takes the water of life because he did not forsee Gurney almost killing Jessica.
He does this because he wants a clear vision, not just predictions of possible futures.
Its in Dune Messiah where I remember his visions are so good that he is in lockstep with the present and the future…
Actually no, at some point in the book when Paul and Jessica are crossing the desert to find the Fremen, Paul notes he had a vision of this exact scenery but with Duncan very much alive, so he does also see possible futures in book also, it's just very much less noticeable because you don't *see* his visions.
i'm sorry but he constantly walks the tightrope to the dwindling futures without a jihad (if there was more than one, i'm unsure)
"He had to remain on the central line of the time storm he could see in the future. There would come an instant when it could be unravelled, but only if he were where he could cut the central knot of it." (p.381)
some more from the end: "Even the faint gaps were closed now. Here was the unborn jihad..." (p.452)
"His legions would rage out from Arrakis even without him... They needed only the legend he already had become. He had shown them the way, given them mastery even over the Guild which must have the spice to exist." (p.452)
my interpretation is that Paul was working against himself and couldn't bring himself to do anything extreme like die in the desert before meeting the Fremen, or destroy his image after he met them. he could only think and do as a duke's son and natural leader would, not to say that he was fated but that he was slightly blinded to his natural charisma spurring the oncoming jihad into reality
I love that Jamis in the end basically became Paul’s Ben Kenobi
By screaming like a feral monkey?
Without directly teaching him that is, Paul learns from Jamis from seeing "what if" possibilities which is so amazing and bizarre in a cosmic sort of way.
Or Paul’s qui gon jinn
@@Gadget-Walkmen I don't think it was a "what if". All of the visions came true. Jamis taught Paul the ways of the desert. The way is kill or be killed. The vision also showed Paul the proper respect to show to a fallen Fremen, the embracing of his hand as they pass. And the boy in Paul died when he slew Jamis, so technically, Jamis did kill Paul. All of it came true. It was just a matter of interpretation.
@@Maniac742 It is “what if” because Paul literally did die in one of his visions and some of his visions did NOT come true on the way that he saw it as he’s just seeing possibilities of what COULD happen and Paul uses his free-will to change those points in foresight history to favor. Anything that Paul learns from his visions is just Paul learning from all the different outcomes that could happened so he can triumph in the real world. Jamis teaches Paul in a different reality when they become friends and Paul is trying to learn from him in all those different possibilities that aren’t set in stone to hardline reality. Trying to get into “technicality” would just get all kinds of confusing so I wouldn’t say that but say that Paul changes what he initially saw and learns from what hasn’t happened yet.
I think the intro scene in Part One actually happened and Villeneuve just used the same shots as callback to remind the audience that Paul is living in a constant deja vu.
I think some of the visions may get a callback in the next movie. I fully expect to see the shot of Paul overlooking the legions of Fremen from the ship to happen with Irulan.
Appreciate the edit!
Not only that. The structure of both movies is also similar. I don‘t have the files to compare but the harvester save in 1 and the attack on part 2 are more or less at the same length.
If i remember correctly, Paul is first seen waking up in Part 1, so you can potentially imagine that the opening of the first movie is also a part of that dream
"Dreams are Messages From The Deep" as it were.
I think the vision of Caladan will happen but it's Jessica returning there bringing Gurney and the Fedaykin with her.
@@DailyShit.
Part one: Save a harvester.
Part two: attack a harvester.
Part three: ???? a harvester?
Thank you for your comment! On the issue of the intro scene of Part One, I believe it to be a vision and the signs that point to it being a vision are the following:
A) The song that plays during the scene is called 'Dream of Arrakis'
B) Paul wakes up immediately after the scene
C) Chani repeats the line "Arrakis is so beautiful when the sun is low" in Dune Part Two
D) We see repeated shots, notably a a close-up to Chani's face and that of the spice rolling over the sand
E) "Dreams are messages from the deep"
F) The title card has a transition effect similiar to what we see when Paul has his visions
You forgot the vision in part 1 where he says "i recognize your footsteps old man" and when he says that to gurney in part two after they reunite.
Even earlier in the movie, when Paul and Gurney are training, Paul says "I can tell you by your footsteps Gurney Halleck." as Gurney is walking in to the training room.
czcams.com/video/kb4Uy8sU5eI/video.htmlsi=t8mdjXjnOzEnDfJb&t=2
Not really a vision, that's just Paul repeating something he said in reference to a conversation they had.
@@darkphoenix2 no. Rewatch part one it's at the part where they fly out to the spice harvester to rescue the crew from the harvester. He falls to his knees and says that line and its a vision of whats to come and we saw that in part two.
@@Jakester1472 Certainly could be part of a vision, and I like that interpretation a lot but he's just saying the line, there's no actual "vision" at least that we can see
I don't think that was a vision, that was happening in real time.
The prescient scenes with Jamis are an interesting little subplot, which is unique to DV's adaption.
Basically, in the glimpsed timeline in which Jamis is alive to be Paul's mentor, what happened to create it is that Jessica was raped and murdered by the Harkonnen because Paul failed to use the Voice to get her free on the Harkonnen transport ship. Paul was thrown out into the desert while she remained on the ship bound and gagged, and he never saw her again. He's then picked up by Stilgar's Fremen, and without Jessica's presence being an aggravating factor, Jamis was acquiescent to allowing Paul to be taken in by the others.
This timeline's Paul is much angrier, and fully embraces the Fremen jihad. He's the sole survivor of his family, his rage intensified by Jessica's death and his guilt over being unable to use the Voice to save her (and his unborn sister). This Paul, mentored by Jamis, is so brutal and detached from his past that he allows the Fremen to subjugate Caladan, the Atreides homeworld -- this is another prescient scene glimpsed during Part 1, showing Fremen troop drop ships assaulting Caladan while Paul, Jamis, and Chani look down on the battle from a ship ramp. This never happens in the true timeline, and it's all because Jessica is alive and Jamis is dead.
Thanks! This seriously answered most of my questions about jamis. I was kind of confused about the visions, but I understood that some of his visions isn't reliable.
Curse of a prescient messiah
Only those who read it understand how much Paul will suffer
He is trapped
Sounds like a dope-ass album name.
Except, he is a false messiah, the books made that clear
@@kamixakadio2441 he still did most of what the messiah would've done. His descendant as well
The actor for Jamis has such a satifying voice. Dunno why
I think the holy war vision of Chani and Paul looking down on the Fremen on, what seemed to be Caladan, will have their positions reversed in Messiah. Chani will be looking down like Paul, but looking down in horror at what the Fremen have become, while Paul will be rearing his head back, looking down with authority and supremacy. How does this happen? Perhaps Paul eventually convinces Chani to visit some of his Fedaykin on Caladan to try and bring her back.
After he rises, he says „she’ll come to understand, i’ve seen it“. will be interesting to see how that plays out
Ooh I love this.
I think Chani is already pregnant. She might come back for the sake of their children. I think the vision of Caladan will be Jessica returning there along with Gurney and the Fedaykin.
@@Tochi68 I think that’s a possibility. But I don’t think she’s pregnant with Ghani or Leto II yet if so, just with their first son, and perhaps he dies early in the film. The timing needed to age Alia for the film wouldn’t add up otherwise.
@@CuttingEdges I think so too. DV could use Leto I as a pain point to exacerbate the war as well as to cast suspicions to other characters. This might be a good way to showcase how guild navigators could somehow block Paul's prescience.
Damn I didnt even notice that either way he still gets stabbed in the SAME place with Chani's knife. No matter what he was going to get stabbed, it was just a matter of by who, how, or why.
It's incredible to me that they weren't really visions, they were more predictions/deductions about what could possibly happen. Like it's not Chani and Jamis he saw, but a Fremen girl he knew he would marry and a random Fremen he knew would "teach" him.
Exactly. Dune is much more interesting when you go into it with the belief that magic doesn't exist in this universe.
His ability to deduce isn't much different from the existence of Menats (Human Computers). But it's on such a level beyond anything anyone has seen, making seem like magic or "holy" to normal people.
@@KingPWNinaterI think this is the best and proper way to watch Dune based on reading a bit of the book. The whole thing is set in the future, OUR future, for a reason. All this _seems_ like magic and fantasy, but predicting weather patterns would also seem like magic to a person from 6,000 B.C. (Dune is set 8,000 years in the future). The book is constantly breaking down any chance that these prophecies are "real," and in reality they're just Bene Gesserit implants; the movie also does this as well, though not as heavily. When viewed with this cynical, grounded view, Paul's ascendance to the Lisan Al Gaib and holy war proclamation is MUCH more insidious and terrifying. We aren't watching a Chosen One finally accept his grand title, we're watching a king manipulate zealous masses to fight a war that his family was engaged in. There's no grand plan, it's all just political manipulation and deception.
They weren't concrete visions INTILL he drank the water of life and fully became the Kwisatz Haderach.
Paul is seeing "what if" POSSIBILITIES of what COULD happen but not definitive outcomes.
Denis has crafted a DaVinci with this adapatation. Deep concepts, multilayered visuals that burn themselves into your mind. Paul's visions vs reality is such a creative, albeit efficient way of capturing the greater scope of the book. Fun to interpeet as well. This is not the standard big budget film experience. We are all witnesses to something special.
So basically Cinematic Trailer vs actual gameplay
i think that the mirroring images in these movies serve both as a way to show how paul visions work and to explain the cyclic nature of war
War, war never changes
Thank you for this! When I saw Chani on the battlefield do the flip, I gasped!
Stuff like this is what separates a Good Movie from a GREAT Movie.
I love the moments where Paul has dejavu. We can actually empathize with Paul, like when Chani says “Arrakis is beautiful when the sun is low.” It’s like a little detail only we as the viewers and Paul knows that no one else knows.
I’ve seen some speculate that the “narrow way through” Paul takes about may also be referring to the Golden Path.
I don’t think the intro of Part 1 is a vision. It seems more objective for the audience’s sake, even though it transitions into Paul dreaming of Chani which is shot from his PoV.
If it's not a vision, why does Chani repeat the same line, and why do we get the exact same shots?
I think it’s 100% a vision. It literally transitions into Paul waking up on Caladan after the title, and then the scenes are referenced throughout Part II. I don’t get how you can deny it.
@CuttingEdges don't forget the fact that Paul waking up is the follow up shot after Chani says "And who will our next oppressors be?"
Paul: " It's me, baby. I'm yours."
It's literally his dream. The first time we see Paul he lies to his mother about having another dream (that was clearly the dream).
@@CuttingEdgesalso the opening line to the movie, "dreams are messages from the deep"
Greatest Telltale game ever lol
You forgot "I recognised your footsteps, Old Man." From the first and second parts
Really good compilation though, made me realise how intricate these two films are
That wasn’t a vision, just a callback to an earlier line
@squidwardstesticles5914 he said it whilst he was in a trance from his first encounter with spice. We didn't see the vision, but he was clearly seeing something. Also, he was sort of whispering it, so Guerney wouldn't have heard the first time and wouldn't get the call back the second time
What the hell? There's a shot of the knife in Feyd-Rautha's chest right after the "narrow way through" line? I feel like I never noticed it.
Dude I saw it twice in theaters and never noticed that either. My brother said something about it on the way out, but I thought he was crazy lmao
I thought I saw that the first time I saw the film but wasn't sure, went back three times to be certain haha. Btw I think it shows the knife as it sticks out of Paul's shoulder rather than feyd?
“Do you often Dream things just as they happen?”
I noticed a detail in part 2 where Chani looks back at Paul and it was one of his visions in the first movie he had before they met fuck I love details like that
I do like the tiny detail of jamis falling down with his wound facing up, to preserve as much water as possible even in death.
Counting these with my sister to see how many we had found!
Be careful she's not possessed by the gene-memories of psychotic ancestors.
nice work
Isn't the burnt hand at 3:12 refering the Hand of God too?
I think it's primarily suggesting what it feels like inside the box, but that's the fun of things not being spoonfed
no its just his own hand. the book said he felt like it was burning into a stump inside the box.
the hand of god is a reference which helps establishes arrakeen/fremen culture but it hardly plays into anything in both the book and movie. in the movie "well the hand of god is wreaking havoc on our comms systems" was supposed to be a small complaining joke
@@MonkeMan374-pj9xx the best part about that line is Paul bringing it back in his speech to the fremen in part two
@@MonkeMan374-pj9xx I'm aware it's also a reference to the book's description of the Gom Jabbar Box, but since the Hand of God also seemingly depicts a deformed handprint, there might be some symbolic link, to tie Paul and his destiny to Arrakis and prophecies, I'spose
@@Vigil325 real i forgot abt that too
It seems the Harvesters in Part One actually had defensive mechanisms like those cluster bombs to drive off the Fremen. It was strange to see that the Harkonnen were so easily killed in Part Two.
I didn’t like that as much, I would’ve assumed they would’ve gotten better at defending themselves against Fremen raids on their rigs
Think they just swapped out their cluster missiles for ornithopter escorts instead.
The difference with Part One is they didn’t have Paul’s leadership and strategic vision. Maybe he was able to change their strategy or scope out the most vulnerable targets with his limited prescience?
@@chadprice1171 My only question is HOW POWERFULL is that lazer? whats its range? Is it single fire?
Because if it has huge range, can fire multiple times, they could have destroyed arakiin with 2 lasguns
@@DuBstep115 But they couldn't, because people wear shields in the city, and that would be fucking stupid to basically risk sweeping a line of nukes that not only detonate IN the city, but at the position of the lasguns themselves, because that's how lasguns interact with shields.
a good one that i dont see in this video is in Part 1 when Paul has the vision in the tent and says "i see fanatical legions worshipping at the shrine of my fathers skull", and then in Part 2 there is a quick shot of fremen praying at a shrine with a skull, and underneath a portrait of Duke Leto
So we have the Caladan Fremen vision and Chani’s burnt face vision left to pay off from these films basically. Are there anymore visions that haven’t had payoffs yet?
If you've read the books you know who ends up with a burnt face...
@@alastairmcleod3635 I’ve read Messiah. Another vision from part two we haven’t seen fully is the thing with Jessica walking past people starving. That is probably the “Golden Path.” Or the Golden Path is the orange vision thing that the title card for both films is on.
timestamp for caladan fremen?
@@ghostmemeboi I don't think it's in this video (because it hasn't come to pass in the movies yet), but in Part One, after Paul sees the Battle of Arrakeen when he's in the tent with Jessica, he sees himself and Chani staring down at his fanatical Fremen legions covered in blood on Caladan
Wow never noticed the sandworm in the battle vision from part 1. Dope!
Prescience is described this way, part of why revelations are always so vivid and yet vague
tbh i think the visions of Paul is more like the actual powers of whatever the sisters called him
the ability to go through time and space
viewing different timelines, different alternate timelines, when and where he wants to
a timeline where he might have shot the pistol he took from jamis, which made Chani didn't become his friend
or a tiimeline that Chani did the challenge 1-on-1 fight(out of hatred for "shooting her friend" quote her in part 1), leaving only Jamis left to become his friend
In the sardukar battle vision you see a sand worm kicking up sand, they reused it for part 2 when Paul arrives at the meeting of tribes
The second one (starting at 0:20) I thought of as the "present" - Fremen ambushing the Harkonnen harvesters during their previous rule.
Banger video
i always wonder why they weren't that many visions in part two outside of a grow up alia for mesiash (played by platonic love anya taylor joy) but when when i think about part one was mostly told from pauls perspective and since his mind is mostly a mess full of half and half visions it really makes part one an unique version of "everything told from the main character perspective". or how they called in literature "the Unreliable Narrator".
So while part one is about the character overcoming his mind, part 2 is character overcoming his body with him training to be a fremmem, him surviving the water of life and of course him defeating Feyd with pure will. Perhabs part 3 will be him overcoming his soul.
I really wanted Paul to cry when he killed Jamis, it was so bizarre in the books to see the reaction of the Fremen, it's very sad for me that Jamis had to die.
1:12 during the attack on Arrakeen, didn't chunks from the nuking also kill soldiers like this?
The second scene wasn't a vision. The Fremen attacked the Harkonnen spice harvesters even before the Atreidis came to Arrakis. Anyway nice video.
dude can't hold the spoilers
well the harversters from part one i think that was just showing what the fremen were doing before paul and his family took over. just showing how bad it was before they ruled. it wasnt really his visions per say since it was at the start of the movie
I don't want to spoil Dune Messiah, but I do believe there is a vision shown here that will be very important in Part 3 regarding stone burners (don't google the term if you don't want to be spoiled).
i don't want too but if you watch the sountrack of Paul's dream from the first film in youtube you can see a small person walking in the desert... can you guess who?
@@motor4X4kombat If I recall correctly, the actor in that scene was the one who would be playing Hayt, though I don't know if that was intentional foreshadowing.
@@BLooDCoMPleX Jason Mamoa?
@@motor4X4kombat Yeah, were you thinking of Scytale or the fremen girl he imitates?
@@motor4X4kombatThe Preacher?
Being able to foresee the future would be such a mindf*ck! I think it feels like you’re the center of the universe or that everything is fake idk…
I still wish for an extended edition for part 1 and 2. But that's not going to happen at all which is sad!
the vision looks dreamlike with slow motion and all, and lack detail. the reality is the opposite
Are all of these actual visions or just shots that look similar between the two films?
The ones on the top are all visions
@@septicshock5663 Nope. The Fremen attacking the Harkonen harvester on part 1 is NOT a vision, it actually happens. The scene looks similar to the one in part 2, but because there's also Fremen attacking two Harkonnen harvesters.
@j.f.l.bousquet1998 Reasons why the Fremen attack on Harkonnen harvesters at the start is a vision;
1) Paul wakes up immediately after it happens
2) Chani's lines of Arrakis being so beautiful when the sun is low is repeated along with the accompanying shots
3) The song that plays during the scene is called 'Dream of Arrakis'
4) We see Jamis and Chani feature it
I think there's a mix of visions and things that actually happened, like the intro in Part 1.
@@piadox it happens and Paul sees it in his dream
HE FREED THE FREMEN IS WHAT HE DID! HE WAS THE GREAT LISAN AL GAIB! AND IN THIS HOUSE PAUL ATREIDES IS A HERO! END OF STORY!
i really wish they portrayed the dreams like they did in the 1st one, I felt like it was too obvious it was a dream with the shimmering filter over it in the 2nd movie. Thats just me tho
The concept of prescience isn't fully explained in the new Dune, so it can be confusing for new comers. Paul's earlier visions were flawed in the sense that they did not mimic reality, but they did provide him with important information. His vision of Jamis as his friend and then Jamis killing him were not incorrect. Jamis did teach Paul the ways of the desert. The ways of the desert are killing and blood. Jamis also did kill Paul. When Paul killed Jamis, the boy in him died. And the vision provided him with the correct response to the death of a fellow Fremen, the embrace of his hand as he passed. All of the visions provided crucial information, whether they were perfect or not.
I'm wondering... since his visions (especially his earlier ones) kept showing people different from reality, then perhaps the stabbing scene was not actually about him. Yes, he gets handed a knife and gets stabbed in the end, but what about the betrayal? In the vision, a lover betrays their partner. I believe the knife is symbolic of the influence his mother gives him, and the stabbing is about how Paul ends up betraying his love by using his power in order to maintain his position.
The bigger the expectation
The bigger the disappointment
Why did he saw Jamis being friendly to him when in reality he wanted to kill him? Its just a possible future where maybe Jamis would have reacted that way
i think chani stabbing him will be in part 3 honestly.
2:37 Duncan Idaho?
Also I interpreted the “narrow way through” comment also him walking through the thousands of fremen that were gathered as a group in front of that temple entrance. Narrow way through that hoard of fremen
Wait, so he somewhat take over Jamis'es place?
Maybe the vision Paul had of Chani dead is from Messiah, as she will die when Leto and Ghanima are born.
yes and no. The only one i disagree with is when he sees his death. I 100 percent beleive thats how Part 3 will end in a call back to that vision so when we go back and watch aprt 1 itll be a 'OHHHH IT WAS RIGHT THERE! " moment.
As written..
6:26 part one vision will be in part three the holy war it's not in part two
LISAN AL GAIB
Half this is not even visions from him wtf
I prefer Jamis over miss moody
Why do I have an aching feeling they’re going to ruin this by going against the books and making Chani kill Paul or something instead of dying from child birth
I don't see this version of Chani giving birth bro. She has seperated herself from him already and I don't think she is currently pregnant unless I missed a hint or something
@@dvedra she can be pregnant totally
But I'm also interested how Chani's character will end in the movie
@@dvedrathere's a part in part two where it implies they had sex. She could definitely be pregnant.
Her first son was assassinated, and she got poisoned while pregnant with twins.