Foreign pilots pissed off JFK Ground controller. Real ATC Audio
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- čas přidán 29. 05. 2024
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Legend has it that TAM 8180 is still holding short of Foxtrot to this day.
Well, thank goodness for small blessings - he could still be sitting on 4L.
🤣🤣🤣
HAHAHa
They need to bring back the “Follow Me” trucks 😂
And the nonsense of Ground (ATC) and ramp (Port Authority) not talking to each other makes life unnecessarily difficult for the pilots, especially the ones who operates there a handful times per year.
I fly all over the world and the US is literally the only place that does this. It makes it so unnecessarily complicated.
Thats the problem! You dont have such ATC separation anywhere else in the world. If the pilot is not aware of that (thats a mistake from the pilot for sure!), then he expects taxi instructions from the ATC he’s talking to!
Thats the normal procedure everywhere in the world!
@@NoName-jl7gs your comment makes no sense speak english
yeah I can't believe that JFK Ground doesn't even have a simple screen that tells them whether a flight is cleared into the gate or not. so much frequency time wasted asking the same question every 2 minutes
@@herobo123456 Deine Mudda!
The controller needs to speak a little slower. Rapid fire instructions to a guy who clearly doesn’t speak or understand English very well isn’t going to improve the situation.
I agree. I've worked as both a pilot and ATC in Australia. These controllers have absolutely no idea how to issue instructions which are ICAO phraseology. This guy is mumbling. I had to listen 3 times to try and hear the word "Runway" in his instructions to turn left onto Runway 4L. These controllers need to read about Tenerife again.
The controller has to speak fast because he has more than just the one aircraft to babysit. If you cant speak English, you should probably not be an international commercial pilot.
Seems pretty simple to me. I cant speak fluent Spanish so I probably wouldnt want to put myself in a position where speaking Spanish fluently put anyones' safety at risk. Just common sense.
Ive lived abroad for 8 years in Asia and learned another language in my 30s, so I understand the concept youre talking about, but that should not be an issue here, he wasnt speaking that fast, and he has a job to do.
Everyone in NYC needs to speak slower and much more clearly AND use correct communications .
@@DrummerJacob his job is to ensure that the pilot understands what he is saying.. not just ramble and mumble.. pilots from another airline had to chime in to the ATC to convey what TAM was intending.. I don't think the ATC was 'listening' to TAM, he just wanted to verbalise his but and move on, not great communication IMHO...
@@DrummerJacob OOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! You are a TopGun even not being a pilot!!!. Congratulations!!! Let me explain something. The role of an air traffic controller is to make air traffic fast and safe. Every time they put more pressure on a pilot who is clearly having issues understanding their instructions, they are doing EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE. Your arrogance may lead you to disaster. Think about it before it's too late. There is no hierarchy between pilots and ATC. It should be a cooperative environment. Patience, empathy, solidarity... THAT makes the world better and aviation safer. Hope you think twice.
He didn’t read back 4L, so he didn’t go via 4L. Just as expected.
Yup. At this stage ground is just looking at the screen and saying nothing around him, he cannot do any damage. I `ll just watch and see what he does.
He read back literally nothing correctly lol
He read back "golf uhhh left uhh right" which there was never a right instruction given, he literally didn't read back anything properly even one time lol
ya and controller should have corrected him when he did Not read back Runway 04 left not 04 left, again shit ATC from the usa
What I don't get, is why the ramp and ground don't know about each other. I have heard this "are you cleared into the ramp?" so many times... If a plane gets cleared in, that could just be notified to ground electronically with callsign and via which entry, and you would not have these endless miscommunications.
It works the way they do things. Just because you have the very rare issue like this, doesn’t mean you should change the system.
@@rtbrtb_dutchy4183 heard things like this many times now. I don’t get why you need to waste already very busy radio communication channels to effectively relay information between different parts of the same airport operation.
Except it only works this way at JFK.
Just the US
Only the US is that dysfunctional.
The problem with this guys in JFK ATC is they don’t use standard phraseology they talk like if they are in pizza shop in a pub a flew all over the world and the only place this issues exists is in JFK because of their lack of professionalism in their phraseology I have been in London Singapore No where in the world happend this crazy stuff; in London ATC is very professional their words are very standard and their instruction are very clear, this guy in JFK he just like the attention drama, he is a seeking drama queen heard him so many times shouting to pilots.
We got a new Air China 981
Well in all fairness it's a wee bit unusual to ask someone to taxi onto a runway so I guess that instruction just didn't compute with the pilot. It also makes sense to slow down just a tad with foreign pilots (although of course those pilots need to be trained better to deal with what can be expected at a busy and complex airport like that)
JFK controllers... here's an idea. If you don't want to control foreign traffic, which is quite evident here, then get a different job. That was a difficult listen and that controller needs to take a job elsewhere because he's clearly not up to it. Take a lesson from your British colleagues!
He gave the instruction as clearly as possible. If you can’t understand turn left on 4L, that’s a real problem.
@matthewrammig No denying he gave the instruction, it's more how he said it. He wasn't clear in most of his R/T and clearly takes his frustration out on a person who's first language isn't English.
Here's an idea, if you're not competent to converse in English, don't be a pilot - PERIOD!
@@smark1180 here is another idea, if you are not patient and unable to solve a simple problem by speaking slower, don't be an ATC - PERIOD!
@@JSmith777 This isn't an idea, it's a fact: a requirement for being a pilot, especially a professional, commercial, airline pilot is the ability to speak and understand English - PERIOD. It's not ATC's job to babysit a pilot who can't.
What we have here is failure to communicate🇺🇸
Welcome to NY. Even after the recent runway incursion(s) ground control gives clearances like they are on the job for the first day, don’t ask me how I know. This was a straight forward clearance that was misunderstood due to the language barrier and the speed the clearance was given… Now, if only more pilots would write down the clearances when received… There is work to do on both sides. Unfortunately this happens way too often at the busy airports around the US like JFK, LAX and ORD. It’s like on the road, people have way too short fuses and kick off for anything…
If Kennedy Steve was still around he'd be having ptsd from Tam8081 from like a decade ago 😂
No pilot wants to taxi on a runway.
It's like walking down the freeway
TAM8180 just begging to be cleared to taxiway B.
Pilot probably didn't want to be sitting on a runway, considering all the close calls that have occurred here in the US recently
Taxiing down a runway is a serious business. The controller was completely unprofessional giving such casual instructions like "taxi into 4L". Every time you land at JFK you are on your toes because you never know what's going to happen. TAM knew that Alfa taxiway is clockwise and Bravo is counter clockwise, that's why their mind was set to take Bravo. Giving a very special instruction like taxi down a runway must be emphasised as a non standard instruction. I fly into JFK regularly and find some controllers great and others not so. One of the threats we discuss on the approach briefing at JFK is ATC, believe it or not.
The other pilots cutting in to explain the situation to the controller suggests to me (in my armchair, obviously) that the controller was perhaps being impatient. I doubt very much the TAM pilot is a stupid man, but the controller was talking to him as if he is.
Controller being a dink. And I think the pilot was totally confused at the start when told to taxi on a runway,.
From my hearing, I’d say it’s the exact opposite. The controller got a little snippy at a couple points, but mostly he was being completely clear. The pilot seemed unable to understand the question, and wasn’t giving the controller the information he needed. The other pilots finally stepped in because they clearly knew what the controller was asking for, and they had heard the ramp give TAM that information. The blockage here was the TAM pilot.
The other pilot was monitoring the gate frequency which the controller cannot hear. The ability to understand and speak English is a minimum requirement for commercial aviation and that pilot was struggling to understand clear, concise simple sentences. This was absolutely not on the controller.
TAM pilot is CLEARLY a moron
Finally an honest comment that sums up the situation perfectly......
How the hell are people that can’t follow the most simple instructions granted the ability to command an aircraft?
“Left on Golf, Left onto 4L and hold short Fixtrot?”
“Um, right at Cinnabon, right on broadway and hold short of Nashville.”
You're clueless Waldo! 🤕
Did you know that English isn't everyones first language?
@@subaru8548 "The FAA's Aviation English Language Standards (AELS), see Advisory Circular 60-28B, applies to flight students as well as professionals working in aviation. The AELS are modeled after ICAO standards and require a minimum of level 4, or operational English proficiency"
Doesn't matter what their first language is, they're required to have a minimum proficiency specifically for this reason.
It is obvious that he was hesitant to enter a runway in order to hold and wait it out there. Maybe the controller should have rephrased "left G, cleared to enter inactive runway 4L, then on 4L, hold short F".
@@cdhagen it was obvious he didn't understand the language when he read back a taxi way that was never mentioned once.
"Arh you cld-in" 😏
I am pretty sure that the pilot was not familiar with taxing on runway. He didn’t even imagine, that’s why he couldn’t understand and hesitate to move and finally choose the wrong taxiway. For me it looks obvious, but controller maybe not.
Taxiing on runways is a common concept not just in large planes, but all the way down to GA. when he's reading back things that were never said it's blatantly obvious its a language barrier issue, not a runway issue.
@@Mike.The.Jeweler I agree, but in JFK? … Not to argue, but just curious that it can be happen also in that busy airport.
If i was in china or russia and couldn't understand a damn thing the controller said, then i wouldn't taxi onto a runway without understanding 100% that was what was expected. To be fair, russia and china use standard English so there is no such confusion. Japan on the other hand is a whole world of ATC hurt.
@@Mike.The.Jewelerit’s not a language barrier. I’ve seen US pilots not getting things either. What it is, is not paying attention and not writing down the instructions. They were probably talking to ramp at the same time.
@rtbrtb_dutchy4183 this was 1000% a language barrier.
Is there an instructor on board
Where do you get this map layout
When speaking to someone that English is their second language, the ATC should slow down and speak more clearly. Its just common sense and courtesy.
For New York, that was being courteous 😁
Exactly, so much wasted time, if he just said it once, slowly it would more likely be understood.
You forgot this is New York.
Agreed. Clear and concise communication.
When it’s literally your job to be fluent in English, no they should not have to cater to you
Delta saving the day
It was Republic Airways, not Delta.
@@Bombardier957correct my apologies
This is a really old one though.
VERY old....
Kennedy in a rush and ended up spending more time trying to clarify the situation. Imagine if they spoke slower the first time, it might have been all avoided.
He was quite clear the entire time. He wasn’t rushed… it’s a busy airport and the slower you go the longer the jam.
Imagine if pilots were fluent in the language that they’re required to be
These controllers would make their lives easier by just slowing down when they are talking to somebody with obviously weak language skills. Instead they'd rather reinforce the NY jerk stereotype.
Ditto, speak slower, it would be faster. I deal with these pricks and always do some shit like this to some people
They don't have patience... they expect everyone to know what they do.
Average 50+ arrivals per hour, they don't have time to baby every person who doesn't speak English to standard.
@@Mike.The.Jeweler that is no reason to give up and jeopardize the safety of the operation
how about get the aircraft to the gate (by speaking slower), and have a number for them to call AFTER the engines have shutdown
we are talking about an airport with 50+ arrivals per hour man.. there is no room for mistakes
@@Mike.The.Jewelernot everyone in the world speaks English. Mind blowing for some Americans but here we are
To be fair, the flightcrew of the TAM were probably reluctant to enter the runway as it is counter-initiative.
It’s very common.
Very common in the US. Not common in some other countries. Some airports never taxi on a runway. It’s possible that this crew has never taxied on a runway before. Or they just didn’t understand the instructions.
@@XetraRewop nope, its more common around the world compared to the USA. Mainly due to the lack of taxiways.
OK, but then go through the instruction line by line until you understand it.
that remind me of the Chinese pilot atc record before
Brickyard saving the day again
10 years after Air China 981 incident, JFK is still doing the "let's speak at 200 words per minute to a foreigner, and see if he understands" thing
He couldn’t go slower at points and they invented bravo when he said 4L repeatedly
@@ndub1410 turn.....left.....G..O...L..F.. then... turn... left.. on...to...run...way...4..Left
I don't know how hard is it for the Americans to speak 50% slower for foreigners..
ATC has one job.. it's to keep the airport and operations safe using ANY MEANS..
Get the plane to the gate and file a report later
imagine TAM is in the air and turned to a wrong heading...
@@JSmith777 they don’t need to speak one word per minute pal. Pilots are required to be at level four English to operate internationally. Level four isn’t talking like they’re a toddler. This airport handles over 200 aircraft per hour. Meet required language proficiency or don’t fly here. The foreign operator fsdo will be happy to disallow them if they can’t meet language proficiency requirements.
@@JSmith777 if atc has to speak one word per five seconds to every foreign pilot, that endangers all the other flights they can’t talk to because the freq is tied up. Just wait until there’s an emergency that can’t get a word in because we are speaking one word per several seconds to every foreign pilot. Hence why proficiency levels are required.
@@ndub1410 I agree with you that pilots definitely need to work on their English..
but it's ATC's job to spot a problem (pilot is unable to understand the instruction) then to find a solution (speak slower)
we can all yell at the pilots and the company after the engines are shutdown
(possible pilot deviation.. i got a number for you to call)
what if the pilots are having bad hypoxia, and this is why they were unable to acknowledge the instructions? would the ATC still talk like a machine gun?
Ground wasn't even busy. You need one pilot to work ramp control and the other stays on ground. I think both were listening to ramp control. No bueno
Sorry everyone, I’ve made a comment in the wrong place to the wrong person. Now it's in the right place.
This controller should be reeducated. He is creating a potentially dangerous situation.
painful
Isn’t this the controller who almost killed 4 airplanes last week? He should have a little more Grace….
I have a feeling if TAM 8180 had entered RW 4L they would have cleared themselves for takeoff
😂 and flew back home since they had enough being humiliated by ATC.
JFK controllers are pros....just flew in last month with my Cirrus and loved every minute of the approach and taxi!
That was100% pilot error..
50/50
Lingua franca. Minus the lingua and the franca.
😂
Como ese saco wea puede volar internacional ,un peligro wn!
Golfy wn😂
JFK ATC so rude. Talk fast to non-English speakers and then yell at them.
I think he didn‘t really talk too fast. He repeated his instructions multiple times and they were still not getting it.
We all should not forget that it‘s not only the controllers who should have a proper way of talking. It‘s also the pilots who fly internationally to have an acceptable skill level.
You cannot really slow your your voice with every international flight you are talking to and speeding it up again when giving an instruction to a Delta pilot seconds thereafter.
By the way: when it comes to language it‘s a lot safer to operate in the US/UK or elsewhere than flying as a pilot in China, former Russia, South America or France, since they talk to IFR traffic in their mother tongue and therefore all the other pilots on frequency have a lot less situational awareness.
Besides the language I think the fact that TAM was instructed to enter 4L as a taxiway was never held to be a possible instruction by the pilots. This caused irritation as well in my opinion.
Exactly
Completely agreeing with you
I fully agree. The controller wasn’t talking that fast, and seemed perfectly clear to me. I think you’re right that his instruction to use runway 4L as a taxiway threw the TAM pilot off a bit, but if you’re going to fly into someplace as busy as JFK, you better know how they operate there.
Not sure if this guy the proper disposition to be atc..............
Listen to Kennedy Ground on LiveATC during a rush hour - ground could have moved 20 planes in the time it took to have that conversation with TAM and I’m not exaggerating
Useless ATC.
English is the agreed language for international aviation and the FAA should mandate pilots landing in the US should be fluent in English.
Aviation english and just english are different.
@holylee30 doesn't change the fact that simple instructions like "left on golf left on 4left and hold short foxtrot" should be able to be understood by every pilot landing at an American airport.
Our controller need to be a bit more ICAO standard with their English with international crews.
@XetraRewop what's non- standard of "left on golf, left on 4L, hold short foxtrot"?
They should also mandate that the controllers be fluent in English. Not whatever the fuck it was that this controller was speaking. His very JFK/US-specific jargon was not at all helpful and was super parochial. Totally inappropriate for an international gateway.
If you are a controller but don’t like foreign pilots, maybe you should consider not working an international airport? It may come as a shock to you but not everyone on the planet speaks ‘Murcan at high speed.
......you do realize the international language for commercial pilots in literally every country except Russia is English right?.....
@@Mike.The.Jeweler and France ;)
@Sunscreen1973 except in France the language spoken with international flights is still English, its only domestic that use mother tongue. Which a lot of countries especially in South America use mother tongue for domestics. Again, everyone except russia, where the vast majority of controllers cannot speak a lick of English.
@@Mike.The.Jeweler I fly over that part of the world quite a lot. French is commonly spoken regardless of domestic or not..
@Sunscreen1973 "Pursuant to requirements of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), ATC operations are conducted either in the English language, or the local language used by the station on the ground. In practice, the native language for a region is used; however, English must be used upon request."
The issue isn't the language spoken commonly, it's that there is a REQUIREMENT for all atc or international pilots to be able to understand and speak English with "PROFESSIONAL PROFICIENCY"
Painful. But JFK really need a plan to deal with "flogging dead horses". Progressive taxi instructions for example. Trying to punish the pilots by just repeating the same thing back just wastes everyone's time.
TAM sounds like they got some kid from the back to fly the plane.
English is the international language of aviation. If these pilots cannot demonstrate the requisite minimum skill and understanding to work cooperatively in the national airspace system they need to do something else for a living.
accents will ruin the whole thing
Not enough English on board
This is 100% on the pilot. Learn the language!!!
Come on pilots....wake up, wake up, listen to your taxi instructions and If cant remember what the instructions are then write them down, the controllers dont have time to tell you the instructions over and over, you should be far more on the ball than this, Id expect this from a new solo cessna pilot, not a triple 7 crew.
controller needs a sip some cool aid on his ivory tower
ATC a jerk. Not being helpful, being a New Yawker.
If you cant speak English, im not sure why youre an international pilot.
The truth is the majority of Brazilian Pilots don’t have appropriate training, specially in regards English language. There it’s like who you know to get hired to the majors.it’s scary 😟
I'm sorry, but as a Brazilian pilot, I need to say that your statement is not entirely correct... Brazilian pilot training is one of the best in the world. Aviation in Brazil, despite enormous structural difficulties, is one of the safest in the world. The last serious accident of major proportions was in 2007! I agree that most pilots still have some difficulty with the English language, but this situation is starting to change. Furthermore, ATC at JFK never uses standard phraseology, they are rude and impatient, which makes a foreign pilot nervous and prone to error.
@@PetrolHeadBrasil I used to have English Language students who were pilots from all over South America, on Open English.