HEATED EXCHANGE between Pilots and Controller at San Francisco
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- čas přidán 27. 04. 2023
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Boeing pilots, how long does it take to change FMC settings from one runway to another? - Considering both distances and departures are already briefed. Can you use Secondary flight plan for it or is it reserved for EOSID?
As a sim pilot I can change from one SID to another in... 30 seconds I think? Without using secondary flight plan.
And as a sim pilot I'd probably just takeoff from the wrong runway and just stay longer with runway heading if the two runways in question are this close. (Probably would violate a handful of rules if I'm flying IRL tho)
no one wants to hear from video game sim pilots about a real life procedure
Real world 737 pilot, but not for Delta so their procedures might be slightly different.
I could probably load the FMS with this runway change and the new V-speeds in about 30 seconds (edit: if I already had the numbers preloaded in the background). Then I'd have to re-verify the departure points/altitudes/speeds. Depending on what changed, that might take a moment. Finally, my company procedures requires the re-accomplishment of the Before Takeoff Checklist, which will add another 20-30 seconds.
Overall, 2 minutes might be pushing it, especially adding on the additional CRM factors for runway crossings and radio calls. The FO will be running the FMS, radios, and checklists.
@@scul00 thanks for your reply
@@scul00 so, our Delta ‘guy up front’ should have asked for three - that would have saved his and her temper.
It was that moment, where every pilot within a 50 mile radius immediately read their ATIS
And when the whole world learned what a nasty, toxic, passive aggressive piece of work she was.
At least everyone on the tower frequency.
And they will never miss another ATIS.
@@AdamGbl95 Now that's just wishful thinking
I'm not even a pilot and I just read the ATIS.... that was some Teacher voice from the ATC... I was compelled.
I would have held short until I was ready. I hate being rushed and I don't like sitting still on an active runway.
Without question, at worst they would have had to wait for that plane to land and then their chance to go. Waiting on an active runways while last minute mucking about with the FMC and running checklists just doesn't feel comfortable to me.
As a passenger, things feel a lot more comfortable when the aircraft rolls out onto the runway, the engines spool up and the takeoff roll all happen in a fluid way.
Or just refuse the late runway change and insist on 28L. “We require…”
Sat on one for my first solo, waiting for wake turbulence to clear. That was a loooong minute.
This is perfect.
Lmaoooo ATC was ready to jump down the pilots throat with the ATIS Line😂
My thoughts too
Hehe, ya, she was prepped alright! Pilot started that one and she had her ace in the hole.
That "OOOOH" had me rolling. Lady was not having any of his BS.
The pilot pulled out his blamethrower and found that she had brought her ATIS shield. Oops.
@@detritus23 I'm stealing your blamethrower
I bet everyone one else taxing out that heard that was typing stuff in as fast as they could😅
Shes got that math teacher vibes, and hearing that exchange probably triggered a lot of them from the time they tried to rush their homework before submission LOL
Tap tap tap tap
Love it
Maybe, but typing doesn't solve the problem. On the 737, you can only have one set of takeoff numbers loaded in the FMC. If they switch runways on you, you have to completely redo it. It's obvious the controller has absolutely no idea what goes on in the cockpit. She thinks it's as easy as "having the numbers" for both runways. It's not.
@@jaredhageman4986that is true and I know because I fly the 75/76 but having done ATC training myself, she did say if they’re not comfortable with the timing to hold short. She has a job to do just like them. While I don’t appreciate her condescending tone, she did have a spacing issue and she did what she needed to do. The Delta pilots were also wrong for asking for only 2 minutes when they realistically needed 5. It happens, we’re human
My wife: I’ll be ready to leave in 2 minutes
Lol 😂😂
Hahaha. Code for 15 minutes.
A good one 😂
Wives and pilots then I guess?
😂 my wife’s first two minutes is just the advisement that she is thinking about how much time she will actually need.
I wouldn’t accept a line up and wait with traffic behind me if the numbers aren’t ready
I don’t think they saw that one coming. I sure didn’t.
@@JuanAdam12 they probably could've cross 28L and still hold short of 28R at that point
This. That’s just asking for trouble. I realize the SFO is an extremely busy airport; but I kind of feel like the controller should not even allowed it in the first place.
I am sorry, can you please explain what " numbers ready" is I am not familiarized with that terminology thanks man
@@cristipvc It’s several pieces of numerical data that are somewhat dependent on the runway being used and which need to be typed into the flight management computer. It can take several minutes depending on the situation.
There is a professional way to deal with such situations. And there is this way.
Yep check ATIS before you're spitting distance from an active runway!
Or, act to part, and don’t scold the other person to strike an argument on frequency
@@aviationandotherstuff6571 wrong wrong wrong. the atc is right, right, right. should have read him for filth -- and she did. brava to her. eh?
@@frame_shift It's a busy frequency at an international airport.... not a western bar.
@@frame_shift settle down, white knight. The probably fat chick controller isn’t going to date you. And she’s on her period based on this exchange which should have gotten her a nice suspension.
This controller has a history of this attitude and poor decisions.
As a retired controller, I found that admonishing or correcting pilots after the fact, is better handled on the phone by my supervisor.
Now that lady local is on youtube for life, she will think twice before scolding.
Completely agree - and she definitely had an attitude. Pilot could have done better, but calling him out like that was unnecessary
It's a whole new group out here today Thomas. You should hear the blow back I get when I ask them to repeat a clearance, or ask for "call-sign verification" when the controller messes up.
There's a new video up of her doing it again when she was clearly in the wrong. She's a D.E.I. hire, obviously.
Then how would you get to stroke your own ego?
I was a controller at SFO for 22 years and worked with this controller. She has a long history of being incredibly unprofessional with pilots and also has a severe case of the Dunning-Kruger effect. She thinks she's a great controller and she's mediocre at best. Don't put an aircraft without numbers on a runway with an arrival 3 minutes from touchdown is the simple lesson here.
So why is she still in the job? Has nobody noticed?
@@paulbessell6154its California lol
@@inmemoryofjstark7893 😂
@@paulbessell6154 Probably because she is a ……. She
How can an experienced controller think that a jet 10 miles out equates to 5 minutes??
Delta requires you to do a runway change checklist then re run taxi and before take off checklist along with briefing and a nav brief after you put in the numbers and change the FMS. You can't do that ahead of time.
So….?
Then the response would be “unable” and the controller would have said “hold short 28R” and all of this could have been avoided.
@@Bartonovich52 The controller told the pilot he had 5 minutes before the arrival landed. That was way off. She was a rude unprofessional hack. And I worked SFO tower for 22 years.
@@frogblues And from the future it sounds like she still is a rude unprofessional hack.
@@frogblues if I’m not mistaken she’s the same rude lady who was recently featured here.
@@tzieser You are not mistaken.
The worst plane crash in aviation history: Tenerife (1977).
Was caused by many factors, but essentially the KLM Capt was in a rush.
It really confuses me because a lot of these take offs in busy airports seem to have pilots rushed by the tower to take off. It looks so unsafe because they have checklists and they might accidently skip something if they are hurried by a plane landing behind them. It's no wonder accidents happen, they should honestly just start holding them short more often. Because this way the saftey aspect seems to go down the drain. A person in charge of the lives of hundreds of people should not be rushed.
@@A_youtube_channel_ 1:14 controller says, "If you're not comfortable with it, hold short of 28R and advise ready." Seems like the controller did give the pilot a way to avoid being rushed, and the pilot didn't take it.
@@joshuaharrell554 That's what I heard as well.
So this time the controller is rushing the crew. Se should be fired she is horrible
@joshuaharrell554 but, they were comfortable with it. They were also comfortable with coming off the rwy when they weren't ready. What they weren't comfortable with was being harassed to get off the rwy quickly due to traffic behind, and that the controller was clearly spoiling for a fight as she was primed to mention the ATIS despite clearly having no idea that it takes more than simply briefing the departure to be ready for 2 runways. She was condescending and naive.
During my short flying career with United, I was a 727 and then a DC-8 FE. Most captains I flew with didn't like to be hurried. They would have held short until ready to depart. Those were the best 4 years of my life, right up till I had a medical issue and could only have a 3rd class.
Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. I hate being rushed when flying. Went through a couple instructors during instrument training that wanted to rush things. Sod off with that. I'm paying to learn correctly.
Sorry to hear. Did UA have anything close to the fantastic LTD they currently have back then?
Man I feel your pain, actually I experienced your exact pain and I couldn't hold *any* class of medical. Hurts eh.
@@prorobo what does LTD stand for? Some kind of loss of medical insurance?
@@JeffreyHexagon long term disability
I recognize this controller's voice. Once I was flying VFR in a Cessna 172 going north requesting a bravo airspace transition. She denied it, and I started a turn to the right (away from the mountains) to enter a hold just before the B threshold, to wait a few minutes and request again. She then asked me "where ya goin" and I said I'd wait and try again. She then suggested that I go out over the water and do the transition at 1200 ft. underneath the airspace, but it was a foggy day and it would not be VMC at that altitude. When I told her this i got no response. After a few minutes a new controller was on frequency and without me asking just granted me through. No idea what the issue was.
Why were you requesting a bravo transition with Tower?
SFO is very unique. For low level transitions like 1500 and below, VFR pilots are told to contact tower directly but if they’re higher up it’s always NorCal approach
The issue is it's a female controller unable to control emotions professionally
Very much doubt you recognise the controller
@@MrCarGuy rather the pilot not able to follow AITS instructions
Hit them with the "ooh, okay!"
Yea, very professional /s
Full on nasty mode that was
that's so unprofessional, no need for this kind of conversation.
Never a good sign when either pilots or ATC in this case appear to be looking for an argument on freq.
Needed to drive the point home. She wasn’t wrong to do so.
@@mixedupmenopausaladhd3999 She has an ego its human I guess.
@@uhjyuff2095 And rightfully so. Male competence has to be put in check.
@@hislord1 feminist
As an A350 Captain, I can say that the Airbus SOP for takeoff data runway performance change on my very data driven airplane starts with, find a quiet place to set parking brake, two heads down bringing up the FCOM checklist for said runway performance changeover (this is not allowed to be done by memory….an Airbus SOP) make new runway selection, SID selections, (confirm by both pilots) compute from performance function of onboard flight bag new figures for new runway, enter new runway V figures and derate figures, flap config, acceleration altitudes, cross read figures from OIS performance function, do “x check with avionics” function, read out and confirm any performance limitations/emergency turn procedures, then brief and confirm with your copilot all the points above to make sure you haven’t forgotten anything and then run the dozen items of the before takeoff checklist.….in the good old days, airplanes potentially have taken off with wrong power settings (too little power) wrong flap settings, turned the wrong way after takeoff on the wrong SID, had an engine failure and not been fully cognizant of the new engine out emergency procedures….it just has so much potential to go wrong….are there any workarounds? Doing multi runway calcs while still at the gate and being familiar with the other options helps, but there is still a lot of room for a jet-lagged crew reporting for work at an unfamiliar airfield in the middle of the night on their body clock to miss something big with dire consequences…..
So 2 minutes, right? :)
Much respect Captain.
Well said. Literally no reason to rush it. Airbus for the win always.
Secondary flt plan? Swap active. Do departure change checklist.
Nuff said!
That was super uncomfortable. Seemed like ATC was looking for an argument there. Tricky instructions at an already frantic airport, yikes.
I mean they both were. The pilot scolding ATC for not giving enough time is comical since she offered them two options and they chose the one they later admitted themselves wasn't realistic. But yeah neither side seemed ready to just let it go.
Not really, the pilot said “2 minutes” and communication in aviation is (and should be) taken literally. If it takes longer than 2 minutes as he later pointed out, that is 100% okay but then he should have communicated that and NOT lined up in activate runway knowing that another jet is landing soon.
@@AlyssaM_InfoSec What do you mean? The pilot was letting it go from the start by not even responding to her when she got into sass mode. Clearly the ATC was instigating the argument here.
The options the ATC have the pilots was not clear. I too thought she wanted them over on 28R.
"Seemed like ATC was looking for an argument there." It was a woman. They are always looking for an opportunity for an argument. Nothing further needs to be said.
It's one thing to be briefed, it's another thing to be configured. Her instruction "Cross 28L 28R Line up and wait" was just ambiguous enough that they chewed up her margin of time trying to clarify. Condescension while rushing a pilot through a runway change is not in anybody's best safety interest.
It's almost like she didn't give them an option to hold short if they needed additional time. OH WAIT, yeah she did. The pilots chose to ignore that the inbound traffic was LANDING in 5 minutes not that they had 5 minutes to enter numbers. They should have held short as she offered if they knew (which they said later) that it would take 3-4 minutes to enter numbers. Don't tell ATC something is going to take you 2 minutes if it's going to take you 3-4. There was nothing ambiguous in her instructions.
True, i too agree with the reply...
There was no ambiguity in the crossing runway and lining up for 28R. Especially considering that a runway change should be expected according to the ATIS
it's not incorrect, it's two instructions: cross 28l, 28r line up and wait.
@@AlyssaM_InfoSec Even though you are right, ATCs behavior was still extremely unprofessional. Escalating a complete nonevent to this degree and creating a hostile atmosphere in the process (which down the line could become a safety issue) is unacceptable.
@@BaxterRoss It's true it's not incorrect, but considering that the pilots also misunderstood her, it might've saved everyone time for her to say "Cross 28L, runway 28R line up and wait" I can certainly understand in the rush how it sounded like they were cleared to cross both runways
I love how we can go from professional conversations to absolute pettiness in an instant taking up the frequency with unnecessary bantering.
This controller keeps showing up here and keeps giving a lot of sass. She needs to be retrained.
737 pilot here. In Gran Canaria they have two runways side by side and often swap at late notice. Company procedure is to take performance for the more limiting runway so we can safely use both. In case of change of SID I'd say 40 seconds to load it and cross check it very quickly and confirm stop altitudes. If I had to redo performance and load FMC about 2 mins
Some airlines like delta require following that up with a runway change checklist. If it’s interrupted the have to start it from the top…
If the departure didn’t change couldnt he just keep the same runway in the FMS. Technically 28R is the longer runway anyway. He could have just hand flown the airplane to the first waypoint.
@@NachoSotoBustos You can never be safe enough! If I wasn't happy at all or had any doubts I'd start form the top too
@@DontUputThatEvilOnMe Yeah thats generally the case or in some cases LNAV will pick up a departure from two different runways if they are close enough
@@DontUputThatEvilOnMe People have gotten in trouble in places like ATL for doing that. There are still differences, although *usually* subtle differences, for a departures off a parallel runway.
Pilot was fairly optimistic in thinking this would be done in 2 minutes, but just because it took 3 instead of 2 doesn't mean that ATC needs a lecture about reading the ATIS. Prepping for both doesn't mean you can change it at the last second and be ready instantly.
Besides, that's 2-3 minutes under what conditions? They were given crossing and LUAW, so would have been moving, and the 2 minutes is probably 2 minutes stationary. Also, I wouldn't expect somebody 10 out to take 5 minutes, "170 until a 5 mile final" is too common to expect that so maybe 4 minutes or less.
@@biggedelt i doubt he was lying. Many people will say 2-3mins thinking thats what they need, when on average most people in those situations need 5. ik plenty of times ive said give me a minute or 2, and it end up taking 5-6 minutes, not that i intentionally took longer, just didnt think id need that long was all
@@Eclipse-lw4vf
Absolutely right people are humans and not machines
Because there’s another plane already on final and ATC gave them the landing clearance based on what Delta told her that they’ll be ready in 2 minutes which given them to line up and wait instead of hold short till ready. Then they took longer than said, and that pissed her off a bit as they could have let the other plane land first. Or else she’ll have to instruct the other plane to go around or in this case pulled them off the runway.
The issue isn’t that he took 5 minutes, it’s that he said it would be 2, controller expected 2, controller got 5. SFO has two runways closed, so they are severely traffic limited. Waited 30 minutes to take off a few days ago as they managed getting all planes on the 28s. That extra three minutes is easily two departures and a landing (though 28R is almost exclusively arrivals and the few north side departures)
Bad call to accept the line up and wait when they weren’t ready and then she even gave them the option they always had of holding short until ready
She shouldn't have given them the option. If they weren't ready, she should have told them to hold short.
At the end of the day, the Pilots are task saturated at that time. And she has a better idea of how close everything is because she can see it on screen.
@@mattd6931 She literally asked them and they said 2 minutes. I am a pilot and we DO NOT accept ATC instructions unless we believe we can complete them. She asked them if they wanted to hold short instead trying to be nice and flexible with them. They were given a choice and they were mad that they chose incorrectly. Could I have made the same mistake? Of course, but my response would be “Sorry, where do you want me to exit?”
@xplayman Yeah, they said two minutes.they probably BELIEVED they could meet them. Then possibly something unforeseen, like an incorrect button press caused a delay.
As ATC she had a far better view of what's going on around the airport than those pilots. She should have directed them to hold short, especially since "line up and wait" is used for IMMINENT departure, not 2+ minutes later, when there is incoming traffic.
I'm a retired controller with 22 years experience working SFO tower. She issued the LUAW clearance to an aircraft with no numbers with an arrival 3 minutes from the threshold. That is poor judgment. Then she compounded the error by being rude and unprofessional.
@@frogblues As an Avgeek I'd be interested in your thoughts on the more recent SWA LUAW incident as it sounds like the same controller.
Imagine thinking that 2 minutes means exactly 120 seconds in this context.
Upon re watching it, I think one of the biggest issues is when the controller tells the pilots they've got 5 minutes until the other traffic LANDS which I suspect contributed to their accepting of the clearance to line up rather than insisting to hold somewhere. They likely thought they had 5 minutes but in reality they would need to be ready to roll before that to maintain separation.
Absolutely. They actually needed 2:30 while they promised 2:00, but ultimately accepted to line up only because she said they would probably have 5, which for traffic on a 10nm final travelling would only remotely work out if they were already slowed to a final approach speed of 120kts at that point, going 2nm a minute. More likely the were doing 170 or so, given they ended up landing around 3mins later. In a situation with such small margins , everybody needs to be precise and add a buffer, pilot should have said 3, she should have said 3 till touchdown, plus like 30 seconds seperation between the clearance, spool up and liftoff, and there You go, too tight for comfort even at a busy airport like SFO used to working at the minimums
I mean if you originally tell me two minutes and then after the fact come back with “well it was actually going to be 3-4” don’t tell me it’s going to be two minutes.
As these guys are the pros, they know they need to be rolling and off the runway well before 5 mins. If it’s going to take you 3-4 to reconfigure, that’s a super tight window that you’re not going to make.
@@roberth7100 it's not unreasonable to think they might not have known exactly how long it would take. 2 minutes is a fairly common expression for 'a bit more time' .
I'm not saying that didn't contribute to the issue, but they were clearly caught out and trying to solve the situation whilst under time pressure and still actively taxiing at a busy airport.
@@roberth7100 yeah, also true of course. I think it's fair to say everyone could've handled the situation at least a little better, but then again, as ATCos, we work with tight margins, we strive to be perfect, but things can and do go wrong. And as far as going wrong, taxiing back around for another try is about as mild as it goes. Not even an actual go around, just a temporary increase in heart rate in the TWR controller and cockpit crew by 30bpm 😉😄
@@roberth7100 That said, the ATC has a MUCH better understanding of how long it will be before the next aircraft lands, cause they have it on their screen in front of them. Saying 5 minutes when they mean 3, is MUCH worse than a Pilot saying 2 minutes when they mean 2 and a half. The ATC should have just told them to hold short and wait for landing traffic and advise when ready.
Cause that's one of the most task saturated times for a pilot. They've got other shit to do besides calculate to the second how long the procedures they're doing will take... which would take their focus away from the procedures they have to do.
ATC acts like she's addressing a kindergarten class. "We need to be honest about our numbers here!" 🙄 Even if she's right, the condescension is off the charts!
Granted, but to keep with the kindergarten logic: the pilot started it.
Yeah but she is the one not being honest about her numbers. She said they had 5 minutes when they actually had much less time available.
ATC doesn't fly airplanes. It's not just putting in "new numbers" it's also likely a new route that has to be confirmed by both pilots, which means the airplane should be stopped with the parking brake on. So you need the time to taxi into position, set the brake, make the changes and cross-check with both pilots.
Unless you just want to kind of wing it or whatever.
Yeah the key there is that she's right. If your feelings are hurt by that, reconsider your entire life.
@@MrObeesho she was being honest with her numbers. She even said they could hold short of 28R.
@@edinthekitchen Wow, calm down there, buddy. All I said was that she was condescending. It's just very unprofessional. This has nothing to do with my feelings. I'm not even the pilot, lol!
My 2 Cents: You would run numbers and brief both in this case if you're Delta (or any airline), but you can't just snap your fingers and go. Need to re-accept and brief performance numbers, and in some cases reload a SID and/or an engine out, and run 2-3 checklists. An experienced (on the aircraft) crew on their best day can do this in 2 perfectly efficient minutes. Although they absolutely could have (and armchair quarterbacking, should have) said no, the controller told them they'd have 5 minutes in position, so based on this they accepted the line up and wait, advise ready clearance. Turned out they had 2 minutes, not 5. "(We need to be honest about our numbers)." A weaker crew, ie a line indoc situation, would be set up for failure in this case. I can't entirely blame the controller, but if I was told I had 5 minutes in position I may have gotten into the same situation.
This comment is easily worth more than 2 cents. Well said
"he controller told them they'd have 5 minutes in position" She didn't. She reminded them they stated they needed 2 minutes and that the aircraft was 5 minutes out. She's not going to let them push all the way to 5 and have 2 airplanes playing bumper cars. I was concerned when they said they were "ok with the 5 minutes" that they had misheard and thought they could use all of that.
@@kylenielsen5341she agreed to 5 min after
I fly out of SFO, there's been alot of construction there lately, both RW 1L/1R have been closed, so departures and landings on only 28L/28R. SFO is a busy airport with SID's going North, South, West and East. The ATIS says it exactly, be ready for either runway, and it can happen as your holding short of 28L. 2 minutes is tight.
Especially with her interrupting
I’m constantly amazed that US ATC continue to give approaching aircraft clearance to land while departing aircraft are still on the runway and in this case lined up and holding. No wonder runway conflicts continue to occur.
beans on toast is not breakfast
@@nolanturek3295 Lol
You do realize how busy US airports are right?
@@j.a.3138 you mean free right? because theres no need to tell me how free we are.
we understand when you clear an a/c for landing it is safe to do so, therefore you don't clear a landing or a departure at he same time.
Pilot stayed calm while ATC was looking for an argument.
The only mistake was that the clearance was to hold short of 28R if not ready within 2min.
I disagree, I hear the motherly side in her giving him the opportunity to make the right decision and he failed. She most likely knew it would take him longer to get set up but she wasn't micro managing his decisions, instead she let him dig his own grave and called him out for his poor decision making. She wasn't looking for a fight she was simply annoyed that he's not being honest with her. If you ask for a specific amount of time, you need to hold true to those commitments!! Sorry, the pilot was fully at fault here, she was not sugar coating for the sensitive generation that's all!!
@@williamkent3490 BS, she wouldn't let it go and kept on antagonizing him with constant nagging over the radio. He didn't bite and she tried with a valiant effort to get him to overreact!
SFO needs to get it together. I saw zero reason to swap the departures for those aircraft.
You can't see what the line of arrivals look like, you don't know what TMU restrictions there might be, you don't know what the SOP might be for SIDs on each runway. I am sure you're much more knowledgeable than professional tower controllers about this situation.
@@kevo31415 it’s gonna be okay bro, she isn’t gonna read your comment
I’d love to see someone re-record this audio with male ATC and a female pilot, and post that. I bet the comment section would look very different.
The 2 minutes might have been enough, if they didn't burn most of it changing their mind back and forth and renegotiating over the radio. At the first sign of waffling, it should be an immediate "hold short" decision. And this goes for both sides of the radio.
this was 100% my first thought. when he came back with a clarification or any sort of waffling like you said, then that is cue to me as a controller to tell that guy to wait. control what you can and take charge.
Controller was being very nice with the quick responses and choices. Its a tough job and you can hear her ego on the radio at the end. ATC versus PILOTS when can we be on the same team?
Same controller as the last one featured on VAS....we gotta problem here...
To be honest and without blaming anyone, it is kinda ineffective procedure to have planes taxi close to the take off runway yet then instruct them to depart using the other runway for no apparent reason. In this case the Gulfstream could have been instructed to take off from RWY 28R but instead was told to us RWY 28L. Likewise, Delta's plane could have easily been told to line up and wait on RWY 28L without interfering with ground and flight ops.
I thought the same. It seems given their current runway issues the actual runway is a last minute call right now.
😂😂 tell us you have no idea about aviation without telling us 😂
@@mbryson2899 I don’t believe passive aggression is part of the job description. Kudos to the pilots biting their tongues off.
there're like 3 things that I'm guessing could be a factor: 1.Separation 2.Wake turbulence 3.Landing traffic
Most likely the first departing aircraft on 28L was departing southbound and the Delta for 28R was planned to depart northbound. Other reasons could have been closer arriving traffic for 28R behind the first one, so that crossing 28R for 28L takes less time. Possible missed approach procedures of succeeding traffic could also play a role, even though you don‘t plan with them, aber no missed approach of an approach on 28R should lead southbound and vice versa.
Or there were heavy departures in front on 28R.
As an ATC, both Tower and Approach rated I can promise you, that the Controller in this situation will have had her reasons so advise the Runways as she did. Nobody‘s doing this for fun.
In my opinion, she did a really great job. She explained in detail what she wanted the pilots to do.
And even arguing with the pilot was still okay, as far as no other traffic is delayed or any safety issue occurs. In general not even arguing about stuff like that is still the better reaction.
I was a passenger on this Delta flight. We were on the runway for quite a bit and it was weird when the engines spooled up and he taxied off on Charlie 2. I had ForeFlight running at the time so checked out what was happening. One perspective this video doesn't fully capture is just how close the landing SkyWest was. That SkyWest jet landed LESS THAN 20 seconds after we vacated the runway. That's was attention grabbing :) I was going to joke with the pilots about this after we landed until someone sent me this audio while in flight. Based on the heated exchange I figured it was best not to mention it to them as I de-planed ;)
*** EDIT: Added LESS THAN emphasis since the internet experts think < 1 nmi separation is normal at an airport. I should have known better than to come to the comments section where the internet experts love to dunk on people they just assume have no knowledge.
this comment ought to be pinned
So you're saying the other plane landed after the one you were on vacated the runway? That's how it's supposed to work
@@sumdog747 He's saying the other plane landed 20 seconds after they vacated the runway..... 20 SECONDS !!!
@@Daniel91BE count to 20
See how long that is? It’s an ETERNITY when it comes to same runway spacing.
@@Daniel91BE That's an extremely busy airport with very tight spacing between takeoffs and landings. 20 seconds is a long time.
Thank you for the great graphics. Helps to understand the situation
As a PP SEL, I can only say that the ATIS departure instructions are a complete Cluster Foxtrot. Hence it got them the confusion and delays and a dangerous situation for all involved. I am sure they can do better than that!
LAX used to be notorious for last second runway swaps. With ALL modern jets being complex and briefed or not, it takes a few minutes to put the equipment in line with pre-briefed departures. The controller was OUT-OF-LINE in her chastising of the pilot. At some point it poses a safety concern because of unnecessary confusion and stress.
same with JFK
Yes she was rude and looking for confrontation. This airport is her domain she she knows the ins and outs. Pilots can fly to dozens if not over 100 airports so they are not experts of every single procedure at her stationed airport of SFO.
Except the ATC gave the pilot a place to sit to do the adjustments, but the pilot in all their hubris said they were ok to make the adjustments on the tarmac, and failed to do so within their own estimations. This was pilot error, and when the pilot went to blame someone else, she brought the receipts, with a little bit of attitude sure but nowhere near out of line.
@@dustyrhodes2717atis was specific.
@@SYDAirlineEnthusiast and her lack of professionalism and tact was obvious 😂
She was waiting allllll daaaay to get someone with that “gotcha” 🤣🤣🤣🤣
and I feel like it led to unnecessary runway assignments in order to get it..
The real problem seems to be how pilots are being rushed out of busy airports.
Exactly. And that concerns mostly US airports. I never experience any of this at LHR AMS or FRA. Always the USA
Should the ATC have requested them to hold short 28R and advise when ready to begin with? Rather than make the pilots rush and give an estimate that might be wrong? I don't know if that would slow things down too much but it seems like that procedure would be less prone to breaking.
The moment he lined up we all know it wasnt going to work lol 😆. You gotta Edit the FMC and recheck everything….it takes more time than it looks
I was in and out of SFO on Saturday. I saw that line on the ATIS and I told my FO "Yeah, some bad shit is gonna go down when someone misses this part..."
This was embarrassing to listen to. I can't believe the controller even gave the pilots the option to hold on the runway and I can't believe the pilots took it. Why would you tempt fate this way?
And the borderline orgasmic tone in that controller's voice suggests she'd been waiting her entire career for this moment. Congratulations, hope it was worth it.
Wait, so ATC said they had "about 5 minutes" which the Delta pilot even read back at 20:12z and then at 20:14z she asked if they were ready and started getting aggresive when they said they need one more minute? I understand they should have briefed both runways, but ATC seemed like she was just looking to pick a fight from the start. Pretty unprofessional if you ask me.
Agree 100%
Agreed
She seemed to be waiting her entire shift to pull the "Ooh, did you get the ATIS" card...
She said the traffic would be landing in 5 minutes, not that Delta could line up and wait for 5 minutes. They have to be well clear before then, hence the discussion over whether they could depart within 2 minutes.
Pilots are touchy if you ask me 🤣
I think DAL1384 was being honest about the 2 minutes. He genuinely thought it would take him that long. But humans will error, so it took him more than that time
They havent done any error. ATC is to blame here. Typical day in the US.
Yeah, but thinking you’re ok, and knowing are different. There was a plane 5 min out, if they absolutely knew they could do, they should take the runway, if not, they should have taken the hold instruction.
She did tell them arrival traffic was 5 mins out, so I'm sure they thought going a min over was no big deal.
Oooooof. You know it's spicy when the captain gets on freq while taxiing. Sounded like the FO talking to the tower controller until 2:24
Lmao she was fired up!
"I think I was married to her once" :)
From a simple layman's view point a lot is being asked from both ATC and pilots, I respect them all and thank them for their professionalism which must be tested greatly sometimes!
ATC may be in the right, but using a sing-song-y voice and accusing someone of dishonesty without strong evidence is not professionalism.
@@jess_riedel if he doesn't want to be accused of dishonesty, he should have been honest with his numbers. If he doesn't want sing-song-y voice, perhaps he should have given himself more time rather than rushing himself....that would have been professional. She, a professional, gave him all possible opportunities to prep.
fellow layman, her attitude helps no one and just makes her seem like a condescending bitch, a man does this hes mansplaining but when she does it...
Its their job, they are paid accordingly. “A lot os asked”? If they cant handle it then snowflakes should quit
@Kichiro I think you replied to the wrong person, because I certainly don't disagree with that :) Cheers
I think it is extremely productive for ATC to utilize familiarization flights. Creates a way better end product on communication.
Not very professional by the ATC. You are there to prevent collisions and ensure maximum safety, not get snippy because a flight crew missed information on your magna carta of ATIS. Expecting a flight crew to make a change on the fly is not how you start a flight. Pilots who rush take offs or landings are just inviting disaster. Aviate, Navigate, then Communicate. ATC really ought to understand their job is to keep people safe and that starts with ensuring pilots are able to do their job. You are the directors, you give direction, introducing the possibility for errors is just stupid and bad form bad practice.
Are we not gonna talk about the Gulfstream taking off without a clearance? They were supposed to lineup and wait.
I think the transmission was too unintelligible to post on this video. Seeing this controller here, she would’ve made it very clear if he left without clearance.
Oh man. I need the @blancolirio reaction video of this like….yesterday 😂
She sounds like a see you next time.
The “OooOOh! Okay,” from the controller is gold 😂
The local controller screwed up. She put someone holding in position that wasn't ready for takeoff with traffic on final.
Gulfstream pilot grateful they GTFO of there...
They can post whatever they want in the ATIS. Runway changes take time.
And if they didn't feel they could do it in 2 minutes, they shouldn't have claimed they could
100% this controller just wanted to pick a fight for no reason.
@@Apollo580 Except of course for the fact the pilot started the exchange. She didn't start the fight, but she sure finished it.
@@repatch43 No she for sure started with the unnecessary condescending attitude
@@repatch43 maybe they did feel they could. Maybe more happened in the process of loading it or rebriefing for the change. Doesn’t mean because they took it they have to have it done now in 2 minutes or less. Can’t take off without it programmed and doing all the procedures.
Their 2 minute comment was misinterpreted. They meant 2 minutes like the 2 minute warning at the end of a football game. Completely different 2 minutes.
lol That's like 40 minutes.
@@erauprcwa Nah that's like the last 2 minutes of a basketball game. Football, 2 minute warning is 20 minutes tops.
737 guy here. One thing I haven't seen discussed is unlike some other airplanes, we can only send for takeoff/landing data for one runway at a time. As @scul00 said, this process could've already been taken care of by sending and loading numbers for 28L and then sending for 28R data and having it essentially sit in the system ready to load, but if they didn't do that, it could take a minute or two to send it through ACARS and have it come back.
Tough to say what happened without more behind-the-scenes info, but it seems at a minimum the DL crew hadn't *fully* complied with the ATIS to have numbers ready and briefed. If they had, a couple of FMS keystrokes to change the runway and they'd be ready.
Once i had a captain who made me change takeoff performance 4 times during taxi because he couldnt decide on which fuking intersection to take due to an aircraft on runway and called ready for departure to atc without any checklist done 💀
@@shawshank_1317 he was testing you
I would've just held short and advised, you have to put the new runway in the box, ensure everything is set up for that runway by verifying it all in the box, make sure the new numbers are correct, then do parts of the checklist over. rushing is what causes accidents. don't let ATC rush you no matter what the stupid comment on the ATIS is
ATC: "It will be 5 minutes before they land. If you are not comfortable with it, hold short 28R and advise ready."
ATC did not rush them.
@@jonathand3447 not initially.
Pilot was professional, ATC kept pushing the issue and making it personal over an open frequency. I give this one to the pilots.
Pilot failed to deliver, got sent around. FACTS
No one asked for you to give anything to anyone...
No need to give to/blame either. Both could've done things better.
completely disagree, taught the pilots a good lesson as to always read the atis completely
@@allgrainbrewer10no one's arguing that. But the ATC was not acting particularly professionally. Making it into an argument instead of just moving on benefits no one
I don't know much about air traffic control other than watching youtube videos.... but that controller sounded like she was looking for an argument and was very happy when she finally succeeded in starting one.
W0W - thanks again!! :)
I don't like the snark from ATC one bit. People's lives are at stake here. Being direct and to the point is good - but snark is just going to get people angry and nervous and angry/nervous people make mistakes more often.
Anyone else notice the GF did not have take off clearance???
The audio was cut out when the animation sped up.
A “yes, mom” was the only appropriate response there.
This needs to have an ASAP filed by this crew.
I wonder why they swapped the runways for the Gulfstream and Delta in the first place. What's the reason for the performance and briefing for both runways?
Probably for wake turbulence and separation issues. They were probably in rush hour and alternating runways for take-offs and landings to improve efficiency.
It could be they would rather have DAL1384 off of 28R for direction of flight, but it would have been nice to give them more warning of it.
@@detritus23 How does it improve efficiency? I mean, I believe it must somehow or they wouldn't do it, but why not have one runway dedicated to departures and one for landings?
@@jonathankleinow2073 Simply, you can use a runway simultaneously for both take-offs and landings. The tower just has to make sure that landing aircraft are spaced so that departing aircraft can get in the air and maintain safe spacing. So, if you can use two runways at the same time, then you can get twice as many aircraft in the air and on the ground in less time. Most airports cycle their runways in this manner. The issue then becomes making sure that there is sufficient spacing behind heavy aircraft to allow wake turbulence to abate and also between aircraft with different performance parameters (e.g. needing higher speeds for landings or with slower climb-out rates).
@@jonathankleinow2073 SFO has half the runways (1/19) currently closed for construction so all traffic is on the 28s currently. Typically depart on 1 and land on 28 is the normal situation. So currently both 28's are used in a simultaneous landing and takeoff operation and depending on what's happening they'll shuffle as needed. One of my recent flights we ended up crossing the runway closest to our taxiway to takeoff on the other one.
did we miss some of the audio? The gulfstream received order to line up and WAIT at 28L and they just took off :S
no.. you didn't read the atis
The audio was cut out when the animation sped up.
'DO NOT ARGUE ON FREQUENCY'
Bit ironic that the controller told them to be "honest about the numbers" when she said they'd have 5 minutes and they didn't have anywhere close to that
She (ATC) should do the voiceover disclaimers for all those medicine TV commercials.
😂😂
1. ATC informed pilot of runway change and gave pilot option of waiting or lining up given position of approaching traffic.
2. Pilot opted to line up and said he would need 2 minutes to be ready.
3. After 2 minutes ATC queried if they were ready to go, pilot said he needed another minute.
4. ATC instructed pilot to vacate runway.
5. Pilot complained about short notice. This started the exchange.
6. Somewhat annoyed ATC asked pilot if he read ATIS and pointed out that pilot said he only needed 2 minutes.
7. Pilot said runway change takes up to 4 minutes.
8. More annoyed ATC says pilots need to give accurate times.
Things got a bit testy between the two parties but the ATC was right. She was working with the time the pilot gave her and even gave the pilot the option of holding. When the time became too long she cleared the runway for the approaching plane. The pilot should never have brought up the runway change timing as it only exposed his not being correct in his time requirements, or, in schoolyard terms, "he started it".
Yep
Yes, thank you. Commenters here are complaining about the sass, but they asked for 2 minutes which was fine then said it takes 4. If the pilot had said they needed 4 minutes in the first place none of this would have happened. This is SFO with lots of traffic, controllers are already very busy and there was no need to add this extra workload.
That's what I heard, thanks for your detailed outline
That ATC was so snarky the whole time. Whether she was right or not, the attitude is not necessary.
Delta should’ve opted for the hold short, but tower needs to learn what professionalism means
She probably should have just taken the day off.
or the rest of the calendar year and the next 10 after that...
So should the pilot.
I’m with the crew on this one, whether briefed or not, it takes a few minutes to reprogram the FMS and punch in the values to the MCDU so having a RWY change right when you’re basically at the stop line probably isn’t the greatest idea. But that’s KSFO…everything is a PITA there
Ugh. It does take a few minutes to reprogram the box for a runway change even if you’re briefed for both.
Then he should have erred on the side of caution and held short. No rush that way.
the issue was that they werent briefed for both - they didn't follow what the atis had, hence they screwed up and almost caused an accident. controller had no blame here
@@KCFlyer2 agree 100%
That controller deserves a “see you next time” send off
So many talented, educated and friendly people could be occupying her place
@@emanuelourencooo if a man did this, you wouldn't have this comment tbh
@@frame_shift I can't care less about gender issues. Anyone in aviation has to follow clear protocol.
@@frame_shift Not at all. There’s no place for unforfestional conduct regardless of genitalia. This woman was unprofessional and gave a bunch of unnecessary attitude. Don’t be a woke idiot and try and apply the gender lens to situations that don’t merit it.
@@frame_shift a man wouldn’t have done this is the point. Men don’t have periods.
Must be a supervisor
now, now, "we gotta be *honest* about our numbers here" just KILLED me.
Take it to the phone, peeps! ...at least the saucy exchange was brief.
My company’s procedure requires about three minutes. We’re required to set the parking brake, change the RWY & SID verify the changes and then brief it followed by the Taxi Checklist. If the FO is reasonably proficient on the FMC it’s doable. However, if he/she/it is relatively new or just starting the rotation from days-off or vacation and not up to full speed yet, it’s better to wait.
"He/she/it" 💀🤣
oh come on randy none of us REALLY do all that stuff. keep it simple.
everyone seems to be stressed.
the ongoing civil war is a big source of stress in the USA
I thought the pilot handled it well once she escalated it. He was in the right, but his response was a simple “roger”, which is like saying “let’s drop it and get back to work”... the professional response. I hope she gets written up. She needs to keep her emotions in check.
Of course, it's the U.S. of A.! 😊
She was fine and handled it professionally, in my opinion. They had a civil discussion and moved on.
@@A_A_J. I'd say it was a bit more snarky than the word "civil" implies, but either way, they got through it.
I've dealt with her; looks for a confrontation.
Now I’m going to have to watch Pushing Tin again
Is it normal for an airport to issue these last minute runway changes like this? Even if it is published in ATIS and briefed before, you get your clearance for a specific runway before taxiing to that runway, so you can calculate and set everything up for that runway. Last second changes like this seem like a bad move.
I've had this happen before. I don't fly a 737, but what I do fly, making a runway change in the fms takes 30 seconds. If the ATIS says have both briefed, then you'll have both runways briefed and you just need to make an fms change and run another checklist.
That’s a controller who should no longer be controlling :)
Why?
There is nothing wrong in my opinion. There was a plane in short final. ATC asked if Delta could setup in 2 minutes and they agreed, but they needed more than ATC anticipated for. To avoid going around Delta had to vacate.
Using up airtime on frequency to have a debate
Somewhere in the SFO airspace there's still someone calling Air Canada 781 to go around
Another case of how little controllers understand about being a pilot. Easy to armchair this one but I would have held short to avoid any sense of rushing.
not sure what the controller didnt understand? the controller asked how much time they needed - 2 minutes, gave them the option to hold short, and then gave them instructions to exit when they went past the 2 minutes they said they needed? controller was 100% in the right here
@John Smith nope. She said 5 minutes to landing. Pilot says they only need 2 before they can roll for takeoff, so she let them continue onto the runway because that would still leave 3 minutes of separation.
@@JohnSmith-zi9or They readback 5 minutes as the incoming plane's time to landing. But this doesn't mean they can use all 5 minutes, there still needs to be adequate separation between landing and departing traffic.
At 1:08 Traffic was on a 9 mile final, they said they needed 2 minutes and she said it would be 5 minutes before they land. It’s important to note that she meant 5 miles not 5 minutes. Pilots agreed that 5 minutes would be good.
She didn’t mean 5 miles she meant minutes. If the jet was doing 140kts on final that’s a little over 2 miles per minute. 9 miles/2 miles per minute is 4.5 minutes. So roughly 5 minutes.
@@Michael-ig8ne Maybe she should have been more honest about her numbers if it was closer to 4 than 5 huh.
Her statement was accurate, they land in 5 minutes, that doesn't mean the other aircraft can be on the runway 5 minutes from now for proper separations. The error was the pilot asking for 2 mins and needing more than that. They should've taken the hold short option simply put.
@@hammerhiem75 It seems like that to us but pilots and ATC should know that they need separation between planes during flights. The pilot had a choice to wait and it was a total surprise he accepted a line up and wait when he was not ready and basically telling ATC he wasn't ready. ATC was like you are not ready thats ON YOU NOT ME!!!
“Two minutes” likely meant 2 minutes from the time the parking brake was set, not 2 minutes from when they were given the instruction. Taxiing from holding short of the L side to being lined up on the R side could easily have taken over a minute. This could easily be a case of ineffective communication due to unspecified underlying assumptions.
Most people don’t realize that the pilots DID follow ATIS instructions. Briefing and obtaining performance numbers for both runways is different from having the proper route loaded. ONLY one route can be loaded at a time and there’s no way of getting around this. Usually this shouldn’t take long so a 2 minute estimate is pretty reasonable but there could be plenty of legitimate reasons why it took longer than expected. It’s completely ridiculous for ATC to be antagonistic towards the pilots. Granted, the pilot’s initial “30 second” remark was also in poor taste.
possibitlity over obligation
Her tone, no matter the issue, does not belong on the ATC radio.
For those complaining , they were given the option to cross 28l and hold short of 28r if they needed more time
Agreed, but the controller here was extremely unprofessional and not focused on what was more important, traffic separation.
It’s kind of scary sitting between two close together active runaways while airplanes land on both sides. 28L and 28R are very close. I would imagine a 757 doesn’t fit very well on the taxi way between the two since it is fairly long.
She rushed him and it was a bad decision on her part. I worked SFO for 22 years and thinking an arrival at 9 miles won't land for 5 minutes is extremely generous and it showed as she had to rush him off the runway after only two minutes.
She gave the option to hold short. They said no, but need 2 min. They were wrong with their times. She may have been cutting it close on spacing but she trusted them to do what they said, when it was clear they didn't and it was about to cause a problem she took care of it.
@@richarddrapeau7599 Pilots don't get to say "no" to a hold short instruction. Controllers CONTROL air traffic, they don't give options and just let the pilot do the one of their choice.
She gave a CONTROL INSTRUCTION to line up and wait. That's how ATC works. She created the situation by loading a departure who did not have their numbers while traffic was about three minutes from touch down. That is not positive control, it is not good judgement, and no decent controller would do that.
Pilots can say whatever they want, that doesn't alleviate a controller from making sound decisions. Again, I worked that tower for 22 years and if a pilot doesn't have their numbers I would never load him hoping he gets them in exactly two minutes with an arrival that close. Plus she confused the issue by throwing out 5 minutes and the pilot read back "we will take the five minutes." Another error a decent controller would catch.