Are Disney Villains Going Extinct?
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- čas přidán 27. 02. 2017
- Disney Animation Studios has seen an uptick in quality and consistency in the last five years... as well as an uptick in red herrings and plot twists replacing the traditional villain narrative. Did the era of the Disney villain end a long time ago?
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The unpopularity of Mother Gothel probably has to do with the fact that she isn't big and flashy like other villains. She's not hammy and she doesn't wear a crazy costume. Probably doesn't help that her actions are disturbingly accurate to real life emotional abuse. Like, she's too real, it's actually kind of uncomfortable to watch.
Club Villain sounds awesome, by the way.
StarlightPrism This is why Mother Gothel is one of my favorite Disney villains
By that logic, Frollo would be similarly unpopular. And I object to the idea that she isn't hammy. One rewatch of "Mother Knows Best" should prove how much she tends to ham it up.
Floweramon I guess his sexual frustration and faith conflict gave him an interesting inner conflict, not to say any of his actions are forgivable because of that. Mother Gothel doesn't have that much of an inner conflict, she just wants to be eternal, making her abusive mother care petty.
I love Mother Gothel! Great villain, with complex relationship with the hero. Sure, she is petty and abusive, but unlike Frollo or Lady Tremaine, she actually does care for her victim in her own, twisty little way. It makes her more human.
I'm pretty sure Frollo isn't popular.
"im sure they wont give Gaston a tragic backstory" *disney gives him PTSD from "the war"*
Disney can go to hell
@@seriqua Where do you think they got that idea from?
@@Turalcar "It's more realistic or some shit."
But then he, like, enjoys the violence?
He still remained evil
The only thing here that upsets me is calling Kronk a villain. Man is a perfect being who just wants the world to enjoy his spinach puffs. And to get the nod from Papi.
Agree
Kronk is a good boi that deserves love
Kronk's a good dude but he's team Evil 100 percent
@@OhWellWhatTheHell1 Kronk is a rebel who works for a bad leader. You have to recall at the time of Kronk's "villainy" Kusco was shown unhesitatingly destroying a village, ruining peasants livelihoods, and exiled someone who upstaged him in a minor way. While it is undeniable Yzma is evil, she is also the only person with the will and opportunity to lead a rebellion against a tyrannical leader.
The fact that I know this means you watched the sequel. XD
I think a reason why mother Gothel is a great villain but not a very loved one is that the abusive mother was a little too personal for a lot of people, that worked with Frollo but he was a figure of authority first, and THEN and abuse paternal figure.
Gee, an abusive mother not being very loved, well no shit. Imagine that. And since when do you love villains, since Donald Trump became president?
@@unfortunatebeam I don't think you understand the concept of the Disney Villain. See, when we watch, say, Maleficent exclaiming "ALL THE POWERS OF HELL" or Jafar wreaking shop with his new magic, or Gaston screaming to hunt the beast, we don't want them to succeed at all. Quite to the contrary, we want to see them get impaled by swords, exiled to lamps or thrown off of castles. But we aren't bored or angry watching them. We're entertained. We enjoy watching Ursula sing Poor Unfortunate Souls not because we think she's right but because she's so entertaining. The key to a good Disney villain is that when they're succeeding, it's fun. They're entertaining and engaging, so we enjoy that part of the movie, only to get a rush of satisfaction when they're killed or imprisoned or whatever. Mother Gothel was evil, and a good villain, but her personal brand of villainy was a bit too personal are realistic to enjoy watching.
Aren't all parents, abusive or otherwise, authority figures?
@@crocuslament9680 Maleficient sucks, and so does Angelina Jolie, so does Brad Pitt, etc, etc...
@@sylph8005 no...?
This is an outrage: Kronk is not a villain, for his soul is too pure
He's more like a minion with an "F" in evil
Rowan Atkinson He's the real hero of the film, he has literally no selfish ambitions as opposed to every other character. More to that: He takes the time to rationally plan his choices with shoulder angels.
Anti-Villain
Good or not, he's still the villain's henchman. And that's all she called him.
Neither is Tamatoa: his soul is too shinny!
I think the scariest thing about Mother Gothel is the sheer amount of people who'll defend her, insist that she really loved Rapunzel and remind them of someone...
(kids, if one of your parents remind you of Mother Gothel, please call social services and ask for help)
Funny you say that. My father visited me a few years ago with a copy of tangled and said "we're gonna watch a movie about your mum." Watched it, came out of it knowing what was going to happen since I'd lived it. I actually appreciate disney showing that kind of abuse since children don't yet understand the nuances.
@@EspressoStreams This has the same effect when Frozen shows that perfect princes don't exist, so girls stop idealizing and become less passive of being abused.
Lots of Christian Patriarchy Movement* cultural enforcers HATED both 'Tangled' and 'Frozen'. The latter was viewed as an allegory for LGBT+ youths "coming out", and the former struck a little to close to home with the use of psychological abuse and brainwashing to keep kids from exploring the very scary outside world.
*Short answer-- like the Duggars and the Bates, homeschooling megafamilies who are terrified that their kids might encounter any influence which causes them to reject their childhood indoctrination. Long answer-- Check out the 'No Longer Quivering' website on Patheos.
There's seriously way more of this in the comments than I was expecting.
As an actual Christian, I am often appalled at what some families do to "make sure their children stay godly."
No. Just... no.
"I think we can probably safely assume that Gaston isn't going to get much of a makeover or a tragic backstory"
[laughter from the future]
Admittedly they only leaned on it SLIGHTLY and him being in a war was presented way more as something where he was able to let his "psychopathic" feelings out rather than having it be the root of his emotional problems.
I feel like a lot of people, including Lindsay (later) interpreted the scene where LeFou talks to Gaston about the war as being some sort of way to make the audience sympathize with him but I always took it as being like ... a joke based on how horrible Gaston is, as LeFou tries calming him down by having him think of the war in the same way one might ask someone to "find their happy place".
mood.
Oof
I kind of wish he had. Like, the beast was a literal beast and angry person, but then becomes kinder and nicer, and loved and becomes human again. But could Gaston have changed his views with a little love? He gets everything he's ever wanted, he's really really really ridiculously good looking, has girls fawning over him, except Belle, which I why, besides being beautiful, is also why he thinks he likes her, but even though he's human, he's a beast on the inside. I always wondered if maybe he got to know Belle better he might have had a change in heart.
Wait, he had a tragic backstory? I saw the remake and I don't remember that
Honestly, I think Atlantis is one of the few "twist villian" Disney movies that works well, mainly because the twist doesn't really concern the main villain (who was sort of a character for Milo to butt heads without throughout the movie anyway) but the rest of the supporting cast, who the audience grows to like over the course of the movie, only to be let down when they all turn on Milo. I also think it's one of the few Disney twists where I felt betrayed by the character(s) involved without it also feeling contrived/motivationless.
Very true. Awesome evaluation.
Yeah, they also kinda foreshadow it, so doesn't feel like they just pulled it out of their ass like what Frozen did
Even though I really liked Atlantis as a kid because of the sci-fi / fantasy stuff, as an adult I really appreciate it's varied and fairly realistic cast: they don't feel like "good guys" and "bad guys" so much as just "people".
Treasure Planet gets a similar nod from me for having it's main antagonist also partially and ending up as a protagonist.
It is foreshadowed in Atlantis the general is the baddie "this will be ENRICHING for all of us". Also his design and slimy voice and mannerisms basically tell you hes bad.
So it is and isnt a twist.
Atlantis is so good and underrated AGH
Tangled had a great villain. A horribly abusive person, so not exactly likable, but thematically interesting.
I wonder if Mother Gothel isn't well liked because she's too believable/recognizable.
That is a good point but that hasn't stopped Frollo from being a popular villain.
Tangled was a fun movie. but Gothel was probably the weakest part of the film. She seems too much like Frollo just with the added "I want to be young forever" plot and no sexual subplot.
Straight up. She's not popular because she's a realistic villain. How fucking sad is that?
(Well okay, her design is pretty boring too. You can get Mother Gothel tsum tsum for a buck at the Disney store but she's just not interesting enough to put into your display case)
That is a good point but Frollo is a realistic abusive villain and that didn't stop him from becoming a popular villain.
I liked The Emperor's New Groove because it felt like it was mocking the idea of a classic Disney villain, just in a more subtle way.
Agreed! My family loves Kronk and Yzma, haha
Pull the lever!
it is one of my favorites, because the worst character is the emperor, he starts as a villain and learns how to care about others
Scott Mew
Wrong leveeerrrrr!!
I think a Yzma-style light n silly villain would be welcome again.
The cut from “Frollo has maybe just a bit more dimension to his character” to
“FROLLO FEARED FOR HIS IMMORTAL SOUL” killed me
Every time Lindsay uses the “See how I glitter” clip my life gets extended by a little bit
Same energy as Schafrillas using the "That was his mistake" line
@@iaxacs3801 Or Saber's "No, Noooo!"
or the "I'm losing to a bird!"
i thought mother gothel was well-written, but her problem is that her DESIGN isn't memorable and that's also part of the whole disney villain package.
THIS. She practically embodies the classic Disney villain characteristics, but who's going to recognize a Mother Gothel cosplay right away? To be fair, a crazy villain design for Gothel would have been a bad idea for the movie, but it's still the biggest hang-up on her marketability.
I like her desingn, it's serve as a king and good figure (to make easier to make Rapunzel to trust in her) and a dark and sinister figure. Being honestly, who would trust in someome that looks like Ursula?
fatalfeline Mother gothel was 10/10 for evilness
also her song sucks. well, all tangled songs sucked. but hers especially
Her song didn't "suck" but it was not a villain song. It had the same dramatic effect as Olaf's song in Frozen; auxiliary at best. The reprise was better but short and also not powerful enough. If they had an over-the-top display similar in style to a revitalized full version reprise, with a total revamp of her design, we could have a good disney villain.
If Disney want to be different then maybe they should make the princess the villain
Elsa was gonna be the villain. Then it was change to Hans at the last minute.
I’m pretty sure a villain isn’t allowed to be a Disney princess because the Disney princesses are meant to be role models for young girls.
Damn my jaw drops at the thought. But then I remember Elsa was a mess. So was that Prince in Frozen🙄
@@cartoonishidealism582 I think it could work if, at the start of the film, you have the princess be presented as good and have a seccond female character as the real protagonist/princess, like a servant or something. This 2nd character starts off as a side character and slowly becomes the protagonist. Maybe if near the start to the film the princess becomes a queen after her parents die and she starts out good but is corrupted by power over time (and this kingdom's royalty could have physical and magical power).
@@GideonGleeful95 Okay yes, but where can we work in an animal that is completely irrelevant to the plot, to appeal to the kids?
I really liked Mother Gothel as a villain, I'd say she was one of my favorite villains. She was as terrifying as Cinderella's Stepmother, because she was an eerily accurate rendition of a narcissistic, emotionally abusive and manipulative mother, but she was charming enough trick people into thinking she loved Rapunzel. And to me, that's the ideal villain; someone you love to hate. If I hate her, she's doing her job as a villain. Also as creepy as it was, "Mother Knows Best" is catchy, ngl.
Especially the reprise every time I watch tangled and the reprise comes up I get chills
For the longest time I thought she genuinely loved rapunzel
I like that you described her as capable of tricking people into thinking she loved Rapunzel. When I first watched the movie, I thought she wasn't too evil because she had moments of "sweetness". It took me years to realise she was mostly just being manipulative. Maybe she developed some certain fondness for Rapunzel at the end, but she never stopped being abusive.
As a psychologist, I love mother Gothel as a villain, BECAUSE of how twisted and manipulative she is (I know, I know, we psychologists are all a bit psychopaths at heart). But jokes aside, I really appreciate how complex and twisted her relationship with Rapunzel was, because... well a lot of abusive relationships are like that! It was nuanced, and when she gets what she deserves, we as an audience are happy, but we also kinda feel for Rapunzel, who is losing a parent figure. It's bitter-sweet
THIS
Disney really wants to make another Zuko, without knowing why Zuko was good and a redeemable person
Making a character like Zuko is INCREDIBLY difficult to do over the course of a single movie
Your Zuko costume is pretty good, but the scar's on the wrong side.
@@seriqua "THE SCAR IS NOT ON THE WRONG SIDE!!!!!"
That’s rough buddy
Zuko is the best villian->not villian->maybe villian->not villian :)
Frollo is and will always be the most creepy , crazy and disgusting Disney villain , Maleficent , Scar and Ursula are saints compared to him.
Absolutely!!!
I dunno Scar is a murderous piece of shit.
Cruella De Vil is pretty terrible as well
Best Disney Villain. Fight me.
PREACH
You're really obsessed with that "see how I glitter" line aren't you? XD
feralnerd5 that and “I’m losing to a bird!”
“Thanks, I hate it”
It's fine.
And now she keeps using Thomas the Tank Engine music at random times.
The Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit trilogies
The villain in Moana is just one big “you need a snickers” moment
Lol
"In 2018 we're gonna have a Jack and the Beanstalk movie"
Ha...
Ha...
Ha...
Ha...
Ha...
Ha...
Ha...
And wait for it...
HA
Ha...
ha...
ha...
And from what we heard about the movie before it was scrapped, she was totally right about the "good giants, bad giants society" thing.
To be fair about Bellweather, she's not a bait and switch villain to be subversive like Hans is, she's a bait and switch because that's what the genre of Zootopia calls for. It's a procedural cop drama, whodunit's not supposed to be reviled til the end.
And she's an intimidating sociopath with effective goons and an axe to grind to boot. That's not typical of Disney villains who are usually motivated by narcissism/revenge. And on rewatch you smack yourself on the side of the head not realizing she was the antagonist all along, 'cause it was subtle, and JK Simmon's character was an intentional red herring...
she can be powered by revenge because Lionheart does not respect
Even when I figured Simmons was innocent, it really didn't hit me prior to the reveal that Bellweather was responsible.
Alaina Colbert more of Zoopedia's development period was dedicated to its story than Frozen's was. I think that's why Bellweather felt more thought of and Hans felt tacked on.
Alaina Colbert Too bad it still doesn't excuse the fact that she only had ten lousy minutes of screen time instead of more time like other villains who came off more threatening and diabolical than her, and don't give that "kids stuff" crap because that doesn't excuse making uninteresting villains who have no more motivation, development, and screen time to be memorable and it's stupid to still think she is evil for the sake of it just because the plot demands it.
Calling it now... The villain of Gigantic will be the huckster bean salesman looking to exploit the xenophobic fear of the townsfolk AND the giants to his own end, just as he exploited Jack's optimism and desire to leave his village behind to find a new... say it with me... IDENTITY
Michael Scally BANKING ON THIS SO HARD
Michael Scally that's a good theory
That would acutally work rather well.
That would be awesome and socially relevant like Zootopia was. I like it.
No, obviously the villain will be the family cow Jack sold to get those magic beans.
The “bad guys” in moana remind me of most of the bad guys in the very first percy jackson books. They were less bad guys and more obstacles that the hero needed to get around
I think the lack of villains is because they’re trying to be like Studio Ghibli, but failing miserably
I miss traditional hand drawn animation. 😔
Keenan That reminds me, I gotta see The Red Turtle sometime
It takes ages to do, though. I also get the appeal but more than anything know why is outdated and nobody do it anymore.
+Candy Von Bitter Anime.
But even anime is going the way of comfort graphic too x/
I miss rhodoscope :p
Frollo is honestly my favorite villain, if only because of how well he works thematically. He's threatening in the way past villains were, but with the added bonus of being sort of complicated and complex. Like, he's got conflicting motivations, and its fascinating to me. I think he poses a nice contrast to Quasimodo as well. But yeah, I've been kind of growing tired of Disney's new villain trend, but I'm not sure where else they would go if not back to more iconic, simple villains.
Oooh that's a good thought. Off the top of my head I can't think of an "ends justify the means" Disney villain, and it would certainly be an interesting direction to take. A way of having an iconic Disney villain that still appeals to the modern audience's need for complex characters and Disney's shift towards criticism of real-life issues. I'd be SO down for that.
ice_hawk10 Are kids Disney's only audience? No.
ice_hawk10 yes. We all think we're film critics and that every movie needs to be super deep, complex, emotional, meta, and have a super strong social or political message that is layered and progressive for it to be any good. It also has to have no glaring plot holes and hold up to enormous amounts of scrutiny and nitpicking. At least that's what it seems like every one making a non super hero movie thinks.
Nothing more frightening when someone believes they are the good guy and does terrible things
I don't think Dr. Facilier's motivation was weak. In the scene when he spoke with Lawrence about his plans, he pretty much said that he wanted revenge against all the rich (white) people for living well while he was left to live on the margins. So to fight racism, basically Facilier went low while Tiana took the high road.
Also...he didn't wanna get dragged into hell by the power he was using
Now that you mention it, I feel like there was potential for some good, direct conflict between Dr. Facilier and Tiana because of that theme. High road vs low road.
Oh shit, I think I'm on his side then!
@@mastermarkus5307 um, yikes?
@@bugcatcher101 I dunno, I think that getting revenge on rich white people in that situation sounds pretty justifiable.
Mother Gothel is like a throwback to the classic villainesses in a way.
Her motive is to stay young and pretty. Shallow yes but the Evil Queen wants to kill Snow White because she is prettier than her. Lady Tremaine is cruel to Cinderella because she is prettier than her daughters. Cruella wants to kill puppies for a coat. Even Maleficent's motivation is shallow. She curses Aurora because she wasn't invited to a birthday party. Gothel fits right in with them as far as her motivation.
But she takes it a step further by manipulating Rapunzel into believing she is her mother. She is verbally and emotionally abusive. But always has the "mother" facade to fall back on after saying mean and hurtful things to her. I think she is fairly underrated overall. Her design might not be as iconic as Ursula or Cruella but she is a good villain.
"oh great, now I'M the bad guy." her lines were fantastic and her va was amazing, sing songy and light but also menacing at the drop of a hat.
What does a story teller do when subverting a cliche has in and of itself become a cliche?
Cry
Ask a Simpsons writer, they’d have experience.
go back to the basics once again and the cycle repeats
Dakota Nelson Subvert more?
@ThatCrazyBookWyrm
Shit, you're onto us.
I wonder where TreasurePlanet's Long John Silver fits. He's the villain, but he also struggles with the role solely out of attachment for the boy. I really liked the constantly shifting motivations, between his crew and his lifelong goal, to Jim. He balances the tightrope as best he can until he has to make a choice.
Yeah, I'm in that weird minority that really enjoyed Treasure Planet. Anachronism works for me. If they had made Steampunk Treasure Island, I would have nerdgasmed out of pure joy.
Arella Jardin I liked Treasure Planet as a middle schooler but looking back the protag for that is way too generic 90s. Also the robot sidekick design is really similar to a Fujiko Fujio manga called Gonsuke that I was waiting for him to harvest sweet potatoes throughout the movie
I love Treasure Planet.
Treasure Planet is wonderful.
I think it had it's flaws (like most of it's comedy not being very good), but I _really_ liked the relationship between Silver and Jim Hawkins. As a kid I didn't seem to pick up on it, but I watched the film recently and that portion is really well written. Silver's a really heartwarming / heartbreaking character and like you said, I think they did a really good job making him a sort of "grey" villain without resorting to tired tropes like "he experienced past trauma", which Disney seems really hooked on recently as a villain motivation. He was a very "human" character in how he related to Jim and grew to respect him despite being on opposite moral "sides".
I freaking love that movie just because of his character. I mean, I love the story and the other characters, but no as much as Silver.
His character is so fascinating to me.
I feel like Disney Studios is going through something of an identity crisis. It feels like Disney is in that phase of life where we've just come out of childhood/young adulthood and are faced with the reality that everything is NOT sunshine and rainbows and singing animals and Happily Ever Afters, and that some of our prior actions were, in fact, Not Cool or just outright cringeworthy. So we poke fun at ourselves retroactively, tearing down the person we USED to be, but overlooking the fact that, without the person we USED to be, we wouldn't be the person we currently ARE.
And it gets tiring really fucking fast. Yes, Walt, we GET that some of your past movies were hella problematic and had "plotholes" or things that didn't make sense if you thought about them too much. We fucking GET IT, so instead of throwing shade at your past self and telling self deprecating jokes about how Disney Princesses must all have their own songs, how about you just accept the past was a thing, vow never to name a crow Jim again, and move on to making new, original movies that AREN'T thinly veiled attempts to play on millennials' inherent nostalgia and cynicism?
nah they just realized they could get by doing the minimum amount of work required
LMFAOOO the contrast between the two paragraphs
I think you’re seeing Disney more as an actual person and less of the giant company it is. Disney is gonna do/make whatever will make the most amount of money.
We are in a very cynical time where any movie has to be realistic and gritty and Disney probably feels embarrassed about telling a straight upbeat story.
Which, honestly, is something we all could need right now.
This was written so well I hate to bring it up but… because I hope you used “Walt” for emphasis in your figure of speech, but… you do know Walt is gone right? These are different people in charge of the direction of Disney movies and that’s why they have taken on a different tone, right? Right?
"Gaston isn't going to get a tragic backstory"
Oh Lindsay, if only you'd known...
Alex Krueger what do you mean, the Disney + seizes
*whistles randomly*
“Why the Grinch hated Christmas nobody really knew why”
“He was an orphan and nobody liked him!”
*flips through book* “where does it say that?”
“Right next to the _CHA-CHING_ “
People are laughing at the Gaston comment and I feel left out, because I don't remember this makeover or tragic backstory. Maybe I was spaced out.
Great video, but be prepared for my rant. lol.
I will never understand why Mother Gothel is so underappreciated! This woman kidnapped a baby and was willing to raise her and manipulate her for the rest of the child's life. Most villains want to rule or get money or kill someone. Mother Gothel just wants to be pretty and live forever. She is unlike the others because she actually puts up with the heroine for what? 18 years and was willing to go more. She is the perfect example of an emotional abuser. She is passive aggressive, sarcastic, rude and "kind" and "loving" at the same time. If you notice every time she tells Rapunzel that she loves her, she is staring or stroking her blonde hair. Since Rapunzel has been with her all her life, she doesn't even notice and just accepts the "love" as if it were for her. Mother Gothel is a successful mother. No matter how vile she really is, she has raised a sweet, caring, brave, talented daughter. As soon as Rapunzel meets a gorgeous man, she is immediately alarmed, knocks him out, ties him up and interrogates him. She doesn't get the "googly love eyes" and falls in love. She is so much of what we want heroines to be nowadays and Mother Gothel raised her. MG is even willing to do things to make Rapunzel happy just so she continues to want to stay in the tower. She was willing to make a 3 day trip to get some paint that Rapunzel loves and requested for her birthday. Other villains would lock her up, throw bread and water at her and forced to use the hair powers against her will making the heroine pent up resentment and want to escape one day. MG is smart enough to know that she had to raise Rapunzel and treat her somewhat like a human being in order to get what she wants. Therefore, making Rapunzel feel as though the outside world is horrendous and being at home with all the items you love, owning a cool pet along with having a mother who "loves" you a better choice. Plus, she has an AMAZING song in "Mother Knows Best" I feel like i can go on more, but i'll stop because i want to eat breakfast. lol.
Krystina Ferro THANK YOU! Someone who finally agrees with me. Mother Gothel is one of my favorite Disney villains ever and I hate how unappriciated she is
Krystina Ferro: Mother Gothel is more twisted than just making a three day trip to get paints for Rapunzel because she loves her. Mother Gothel got Rapunzel the paints to lord her "sacrifice" over Rapunzel any time Rapunzel does anything to displease her, like saying how she wants to leave her tower. I completely agree that Mother Gothel is the perfect example of an emotional abuser, though.
Also, Donna Murphy, the voice of Mother Gothel, is the freaking bomb.
That's a great explanation. Mother Gothel is underhanded and that's what made her unique as a villain. No over the top, but maybe that is why he's underappreciated, most DV's are supposed to be over the top.
I feel like it's BECAUSE Mother Gothel is such an accurate depiction of an emotional abuser that people don't like her. She's too real. Disney villains aren't supposed to be... real.
I live for these. i fucking adore your content
d a d d y
Griffin Hines Samee, everytime I think she's gonna stop she puts out a video
I think The Incredibles had the best twist villain tbh because he still got to be that classic villain through most of the movie and it was actually well written. I know it's Pixar, but they're doing this whole twist villain thing too.
Another great thing about the twist villain in the Incredibles (unless we're talking about the more cliche sequel) is that the twist came early, so they didn't try to play it for anymore than it was worth
Pixar was doing it first, going back to Waternoose in Monsters Inc.
I'd argue Incredibles' villain was barely even a twist. They set up Syndrome/Buddy in the first act, but the rest of the movie is so compelling that the Act 2 reveal of Syndrome feels both surprising AND totally natural.
As a Scandinavian, I'm still a little sad that they turned the original story for Frozen entirely on its head.
The story could've worked so well with a few minor tweaks, but they just decimated the thing.
I hardly even recognise the (somewhat harrowing) story I read as a child.
It actually had substance, and deserved a better adaptation than Frozen.
I am a bit so so, on it, I rather liked the movie but it was obviously more inspired by the original story than actually being anywhere close to an adaptation.
Frankly they could have just pretented they never heard of original and no one would have doubted them.
In english, the title of the disney movie is "Frozen" and the title of the book is "The queen of ice". That is a great choice considering how different the movie and the book are. In french though, both are called "La reine des neiges", and that is not a good choice in my opinion. I don't understand why the movie wasn't called "Elsa et Anna", or "Anna, princesse d'Arendelle" or anything like that. I don't like it when two entirely different things have the same title when it's not simply an accident. Disney knew the title of that book, they took inspiration from it but completely changed direction, it shouldn't have the same title.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 I’m not so sure. Even without the knowledge suppository that is the Internet at everyone’s fingertips, people were still quick to jump on Lion King for being too similar to Kimba the White Lion. In this US at least, since this was before the anime boom, it was just a mere obscure Japanese cartoon to the mass public. But that didn’t stop the allegations of plagiarism. Think of how that would be today with all the CZcams film critics ready to call Disney out.
@@trekadouble757 the snow queen is accurate to what Elsa's powers are she is technically a snow queen
I'm already sick of this new "pull the rug out from under the audience" storytelling Disney's going with. They have yet to fool me *even once*, and it's honestly a little tiring to watch the characters in the film puzzle it out for an hour. The only movie it really worked me was Zootopia, and that's because it was a mystery story.
So they did fool you once....
Lia Mina he didn’t say that they fooled him though.
He said the twist villain worked for him, because it was a mystery story so it shouldn’t have had an obvious villain.
Yeah also toy story 3
I've noticed that the current films that have that trope in their stories are mostly tied when they partnered up with Pixar. To me, pulling the rug out from under the audience has always been a thing Pixar did best but since they got bought by Disney, well. It doesn't have that genuine twist that felt natural and logical.
Can't wait for the live-action Beauty and the Beast to have Gaston's tragic backstory. You see, his father abused him to perform well, athletically. His only emotional connection was with his personal trainer who wound up killed by a bear. Gaston cleaves to hypermasculinity as his only protection from what he feels is an uncaring and brutal world. New lyric: "No one cares for Gaston, no one's there for Gaston, you go home to an empty apartment, Gaston."
I n all seriousness want a stand-alone Gaston Buddy comedy... but animated. not about his tragic back story but about how he came to the village and what he did that made everyone like him so much.
You should be happy to note that Gaston, in fact, did not get a tragic backstory, and if anything is arguably more malicious.
Nah, they gave that to Beast. The only backstory they gave to Gaston was that he was a war hero, which just explained why he villagers respected him so much.
Mouth To Ass Resuscitation he was pretty lame in the new movie
Gaston's scenes in the remake go between comedic antics to a few bizarre comments about how he's traumatized from The War™.
Han truly felt like he was given a note halfway through the film saying "Okay, now you're the villain."
Isnt that basically how it happened? Elsa was the villain until the crew wrote and then heard Elsa's actress sing Let it Go, and then decided she was too sympathetic a character. There are even leftover 3D models of her "evil" design with black hair and pixie cut
“I wonder how quickly people are going to get tired of it”... VERY QUICKLY....VERRRY.
Personally, I'd say if there's any character in Moana that fills the villain slot, it's not Tamatoa or Te Ka, but Maui. Certainly not in the traditional or marketable respect, as he is one of the protagonists, but the whole movie *does* revolve around the bad thing *he* did.
He's the one who caused the apocalypses. He's the one who was always working towards a selfish goal. He was the one constantly endangering and baiting Moana, often towards said selfish goal. He's the one who didn't want to take responsibility for restoring the Heart of Te Fiti. And all that was established in the opening.
The only two real outliers is that his selfish goal involves helping people and trying to actually improve the lives of humans and that he gets a turn around. Which frankly makes a better, and far more subtle, subversion of the troupe than anything else Disney's done thus.
Agreed. He's the foil. He's the Han Solo. He's the Beast. I actually think they did a better job with Maui than with Elsa. Elsa is alternately emo and chipper, which makes no sense, while Maui is always flippant and vainglorious.
Did you see the word she used? "If anyone" and "bad thing"? Again, I use the Beast analogy; the Beast is the antagonist who acts an AN obstacle to the protagonist, but he's not evil. Han Solo is more of a traditional foil since he does not oppose Luke, but I'm referring to the antihero archetype.
So basically, Maui is Kuzco?
more like Ralph.
Simple, they saw Bowler Hat Guy and knew that they couldn't top that shit, so they just stopped.
You mean MIKE YAGOOBIAN
I guess this begs the question, "Does every story need a compelling villain, or a villain at all?" The Little Mermaid by Hans Christian never had a villain. Disney added Ursula in.
I know this video is a bit old, but by now I feel like Disney's 'unpredictably' has become way too predictable. I feel like the problem with the old movies they were trying to move past was that the villains were great but the heroes were cliche, now the heroes are great but the villains are cliche. I want good villains back!
I disagree with you on the Princess and the frog lacking that internal conflict with the villain, it's a lot more subtle but It's implied that witch Doctor had the same life as Tiana, Having a pretty crappy childhood in the ghetto and wanting more. The differences between them is the Which Doctor took the easy route and gave up his humanity to evil spirits, Tiana Kept working hard no matter how hard it got. This is most apparent at their final confrontation where the witch doctor temps her with her dream if she gave him back his amulet. I will agree the movie should've probably went into it more but it's was still there.
But because that isn't clear, it doesn't work. Disney movies should not be subtle, ever- they're the only movies I'd say where the emotionality needs to be the ultimate strongest thing no matter what.
Jenifer Joseph Exactly!
Nice headcanon, but I don't remember that ever being implied.
I never even thought of that. Would have been awesome if they stressed it more in the story- had the doctor tempt Tiana earlier on. Do we know that Facilier grew up poor? It's likely, but he may have inherited the family business.
I loved Facilier, but he was underdeveloped
As much as I loved Moana, I realized how much I am a bit tired of Disney's subversion of their past films seeing as they've been making fun of themselves since Enchanted if not before that (if it is indeed before Enchanted, feel free to correct me). It is however interesting to see where Disney is going from here on out.
Exactly my thoughts. They are trying as hard to break away from their old image as Miley Cyrus did and it just feels... Fake? Or kind of like a kid who pretends to look adult. "Look at me, doing all these adult things" - "Look at us, making fun of all our old stereotypes!" I disliked it from the very beginning...
It also feels like they're dragging on everybody who liked those old tropes. :/
I like the subversions in terms of plot that we've seen like the charming prince being the villain in Frozen but I have grown tired of it now. It would be nice to see another Disney film with a more classical villain that has an awesome villain song again. I think the most 'try hard' examples were Chief Bongo's let it go joke in Zootopia and the Maui's line about throwing up if Moana starts singing.
ayior Exactly. This is why I didn't like Moana as much I would have liked to. It was as perfect opportunity for them to REALLY do something new since it isn't based of of any existing source material. And it just felt like a check list of things that need to be in Disney movies. Which...ironic because Disney is trying to subvert all these tropes and get away from their usual formula...and I'm glad she touched on this and explains why it's starting to not work anymore.
I don't think Chief Bogo made a "Let it Go" joke. He just said "Let it go", which is a very common phrase when telling someone to stop confronting them about a specific subject.
I love how you make a point of including the "see how i glitter" bit in pretty much every disney-realated video ^^
I might be the only one but, Ray’s death in Princess and the Frog never fails to make me cry.
No. It’s sad. Just unnecessary.
That’s because Ray is more of a helping mantle rather than a character tied to main characters. It’s not like Bambi’s mom or Mufasa who HAD a strong connection with our main characters.
Also his death has nothing to do with the themes of story.
Optimistic, yet naïve and inexperienced young heroine:
Tiana (Princess and the Frog)
Rapunzel (Tangled)
Vanellope (Wreck-it Ralph) (to an extent)
Anna (Frozen)
Judy (Zootopia)
Moana (Moana)
Older, experienced arrogant misunderstood a-hole secondary hero:
Naveen (Princess and the Frog)
Flynn Rider (Tangled)
Ralph (Wreck-it Ralph)
Kristoff (Frozen)
Nick (Zootopia)
Maui (Moana)
Twist Villain (may be sympathetic):
King Candy (Wreck-it Ralph)
Hans (Frozen)
Callahan (Big Hero 6)
Bellweather (Zootopia)
Te Fiti (Moana)
Yeah...
I'd actually argue with you on the PATF point. Naveen is the naive and inexperienced one, while Tiana is the more mature, experienced one.
My argument for PATF in general is actually that it's fatal flaw is in trying to make it a princess movie. Tiana's not actually the protagonist... Naveen is. He undergoes the most character development and learns the most in this story: he overcomes his lackadaisical playboy lifestyle and grows up over the course of the story into a compassionate person who learns that the best things in life are worth working for.
Tiana starts out as a hard worker and in the end... yeah, hard work is good. You were right. Have yer restaurant. Something vague and poorly defined about "you know what you want, but you don't know what you need"? Even though she gets what she wants in the end?
Amy Patterson I would argue that in terms of Tiana’s arc in the film, she needed to learn to not be so coped up in her work all the time by herself and balance between her goal of opening her restaurant and connecting with those around her. She was essentially a workaholic and her dynamic with Naveen helped her open her eyes to that.
Te Fiti wasn't really a twist villain, more like the opposite...
Yeah, but how would they make any money if they wrote good stories and had original ideas?
I don't see the problem. As TV Tropes put it: Tropes are not bad. The tropes themselves don't make a story good or bad, it's how you play them.
Lindsey perfectly expressed my feelings on the new Disney "subversion" trope. Calling out all the old shtick was funny and self-aware 'bout five years ago but at some point they have to start making more genuine stuff (to subvert in twenty years) right?
I understand why Treasure Planet was her commercial and financial failure but frankly I love the movie itself I don't get why everybody hates on it other than the two previously mentioned reasons
From what little I've seen of it, I think you have to be kinda of nerdy fan of genre stuff to enjoy it
It was just very unimpressive story wise.
And the blending of 17th century aesthetic with futuristic technology was just meh.
The only thing that was well done was Jim Hawkins' and Long John Silver's connection. But honestly, my favorite go to version of Treasure Island will always be the Muppets' version with Tim Curry.
ok but i love treasure island in SPAAAAACE
"Bellwether is an Alex Jones fever dream false flag sheep"
That's terrifyingly accurate
TheDreamerExtreme It's also a fairly common villain archetype.
that sheep is a literal metaphor for a wolf in sheeps clothing
I know I'm biased because it was one of my favorite childhood movies, but I adore Treasure Planet, if only for its aesthetic...oh who am I kidding, I just love it.
me too!
I oughta see it some time
Nothing to be biased about, it’s generally an amazing movie and just gets lost under the rug of other Disney movies, if for nothing else because it was nothing like their other movies.
I wasn't even fully aware of Treasure Planet until I watched Breadsword's video essay on how it is possibly the best Disney animated movie but ultimately killed the old animation department (because of when it came out and the clearly lackluster marketing, I guess the masses were too busy eating up Shaft2000, Hallowman, the Final Destinations, the scary movies and the castaways, the x-men, crouching tigers and the hidden dragons, the gladiators and the momentos we were too busy or too cool to watch an amazing classic rethought for our time).
I saw Frozen pretty late, on an airplane, long after everyone had gone insane for it. When Elsa has her big number and it looked like it was going to turn into a villain origin story, I was about to be really impressed. After the "twist," I became a lot less excited about the whole thing...
One of the best Disney movies ever made. I'm really glad Gigantic did not get cancelled and that its release stopped all crimes from happening.
"You wanted it to be such a moment"
I did cry, though
My reaction was "This feels do contrived at leased I don't have to deal with this character anymore." I was also thinking "Of course the useless alligator is missing from the climax."
I found Bellweather to be frickin terrifying since she nearly caused a genocide through physiological manipulation on a massive scale...
MHS0501 big mood
MHS0501 You find Bellwether to be terrifying when there are so many unanswered questions of the night howler scandal and no mention of anyone dying, other than a caribou being in critical condition? Give me a break. The genocide was done better with Scar, Frollo, Lord Shen, Fire Lord Sozin, Azulon, and Ozai because they did not need only ten lousy minutes of screen time with hardly any real motivation which was done lousy with Bellwether which left so many unanswered questions that there was no real genocide like the other villains who did a better job at it.
She was boring but terrifying
Agree 100% she is infact my most favourite recent villain ever
Given all the things I read given my people's history, Bellweather was, in fact, terrifying. I'm surprised they had the cajones to weave in such a plot to American audiences.
I really hope Disney Villains aren't going. They don't all need to have a tragic backstory. They simply need to be engaging and a good foil. Another thing that seems to be dying is Disney Villain songs. Hans was so boring, the twist was so forced.
An Echo In here the last really good Disney villain song was dr. Faciler or shadow man.
Hans' villain song is Love is an Open Door.
Also didn't Moana's villain get a song?
Hans should have gotten to reprise that song but with a villain twist after his reveal. Would have made the whole movie imo.
Well, Moana didn't really *have* a villain in traditional Disney style; BUT we did get something close in the song "Shiny".
An Echo In here I agree with everything you just said!!
Coming back to this after seeing the Beauty and the Beast remake (and her vid on it), that prediction about Gaston being excluded from the Tragic Backstory Trend... yeah, about that...
I love how she’s got Ratigan on screen in the background, he’s my favourite Disney villain joint with Scar.
Plus, Judge Claude Frollo is by far the best Disney villain, fight me😂.
How would older fairy tale based movies have been called under the current naming trend?
Aladdin -> Wishes?
Beauty and the Beast -> Enchanted? (good thing they saved that one?)
The Little Mermaid -> Legs?
Snow White -> Bitten? Eaten? Banished?
Echiewel Snow White -> Apple
Snow White - POISONED
Cinderella- STEP (A play on both step-family and the glass slippers)
Pinocchio- WOODEN
Treasure Planet- COMPASS (or NAVIGATION)
Sleeping Beauty- CONKED
The Little Mermaid- SPLASH
The Lion King- SCAR (And it'd be about how Scar always came up with good ideas but would get overlooked by Mufasa's prowess and ability to keep others in line)
Aladdin- WISH
Beauty and the Beast- CURSED
Hercules- HERO
The Sword in the Stone- SORCERER (And it'd focus on Merlin)
Robin Hood- TAXED (or ROBBIN')
The Black Cauldron- BEASTMEN (You know, the most interesting thing in the book they left out.)
LEGS
I'm dead
I'm sure Disney can afford the licensing for the ZZ Top song too ;)
They already used Enchanted.
Unpopular opinion: Descendants is a rip off of the Ever After High doll line and it's overarching storyline (from the animated shorts)
Thank you! Ever After High was so much better, and its dolls weren't ugly as shit.
Not only that, but also Once Upon A Time ( season 1-6 that is)
Ever after high was amazing
Yup
Ever after high had to stop cause of descendants
...yeah--
Mother Gospel is actually my favorite villian, mainly because she's the only Disney villian that felt like she could exist. Reminded me of my own father and the insanity he put me and my family through.
Honestly my favorite movie growing up was Kiki's Delivery Service - and I think in many ways I could relate more to a journey of self discovery rather than a battle against a villainous foe.
but also, I love Avatar the Last Airbender (tv show of course) and I think the firelord and his crazy-ass daughter Azula (and the secret police of Ba Sing Sae) are a really great villainous, opposing force for Aang, while at the same time they tackle more abstract ideas like whether or not a people's morality are affected by their government's policies, how people are susceptible to group dynamics, and how relationships and bonds with other humans, animals, and the earth can enrich our existences.
Anyways, I guess I'm not sad about seeing a flat, one-dimensional villain trope bite the dust.
I loved Kiki's Delivery Service as a kid!
@@godspeedhero3671 best movie ever!
I want to see Disney to something where they have us rooting for the main character, and then throughout the film tha main character becomes a villian and we're like "OH SHIT:" like "The Founder."
At some point I felt they could do that with the new Star Wars Trilogy but it seems I was wrong :-P Well we'll see but I'd be hella surprised at this point.
@@Kyrielsh1 Yeeeeeeah, but even if they did Star Wars did do that...I'm sorry, I just can't think of Star Wars as a Disney property. Star Wars doesn't have that Disney brand that movies like Dumbo, Lion King, or Little Mermaid have, and people don't associate Star Wars with Disney all that much. I agree with the original comment that I'd love to see that from DISNEY. Not any extension of Disney, like Lucasfilm or Marvel, just straight up DISNEY.
I wanted this as a videogame
Go watch Twisted by Starkid. You'll definitely get that 'OH SHIT' moment
Tangled the Series is pretty good, and there’s... sort of a Founder-like character change.
Also Mother Gothel was wonderful.
An Echo In here I agree.
+Austin Hendry me too
She was a major fucking bitch. I loved her. Best part of the movie.
She's great, she's just not epic in the same way the best Disney villains are. She wants to be pretty forever and she's willing to be a dick about it. It's not really up there with the Great Disney Villain Motivations.
Maybe that's one reason Mother Gothel isn't remembered as one of the greats. If you didn't have an emotionally abusive parent, she just seems kinda lame, and lame is difficult to enjoy. If you did, she's uncomfortably real, and real is ALSO difficult to enjoy.
One odd exception to the twist villain is 'Treasure Planet', seeing as how Long John Silver was the OG twist villain. The movie doesn't even try to hide he's a bad guy.
I personally loved the villain from Gigantic, the movie that they released last year, it was certainly a decent movie
"Hades is the only Disney villain voiced by an actual heartless person" - Lindsay
Well it's true. The guy filed a lawsuit against someone for saying their opinion on him, then when said person died, he said he hoped they "Died in agony screaming his name". Sounds pretty heartless to me.
That's... Horrible. Huh, and Hades is such a likeable character. Even the original Hades in Greek mythology is one of the nicest gods. To think that such a cool character was voiced by this kind of as*hole...
FireBlast Studios jesus, really?
Samuel Wallace the ironic thing is that Hades is the nicest god in the myths
If you think that's bad, wait till you hear this: kindly old Geppetto from Pinocchio was voiced by a guy called Christian Rub, who was a Nazi sympathiser and used to infuriate the animators with his long speeches about how great Hitler was
I think it would have been better if Hans wasn't a villain. I mean what if he had kissed her and oops.....looks like we aren't in love because we don't know each other. He didn't need to be a villain, he could have been her friend in the end after she survived. Elsa could have still saved her.
If they went that route it would be a repeat of "Enchanted"'s ending. and I would have been very upset. I was afraid it was going there when I saw it in the theater. (I was worried Disney forgot Enchanted was a thing. Evidently with the concerning titled "DisEnchanted" coming out they hadn't.)
I would like to see how that turned out. He would kiss her and didn't work, then he goes to kill Elsa in order to bring back sumer (and for Anna), that would make him a much well rounded character if you ask me ...
*THANK YOU*. And maybe at the end...even though he and Anna aren't in love, she lets Hans stay in Arendelle rather than go back to his neglectful family.
I think the film theorists got it right. We're gonna find out that hans really wasnt a villain, he was just a victim of the troll rocks and their mind manipulating magic powers. .
Hans is the most out of field villain ever in disney and i honestly hate that ending part of the movie because of it... he has 7 brothers but you dont see the other 6 doing what he did so whats the difference?
Maui is clearly the villan of moana. What makes it so brilliant is that they don't do a last minute reveal about it. He leave's moana to die in a cave from the first moment they meet and continues to have selfish motives during the movie. The fact that everything is his fault for stealing the stone isn't some out of the blue shock value thing, it makes total sense.
Moana is unique becouse the villan and hero must work togeher to ahive their goals rather than them being polar oposites.
This video aged like wine since now none of the movies really have villains it just family trauma (Encanto) and global warming (strange world)
Maui is the villain of Moana. He's the one who stole the Maguffin and nearly destroyed the world, and he had the best song.
Phill Zimmer Pretty much what I thought too. In his egotistical need to be the greatest hero, Maui wound up being the villain that almost ruined the world. Could have been the twist, but instead it turned into a villain-less film with no real “bad guy”, just a misunderstood monster/goddess and a giant sparkly crab who had a cool villain song yes but didn’t do anything evil besides want to eat Moana for the glow-ey MacGuffin Maui stole
Phill Zimmer Which he stole to give to mankind so that they could create life.
I'd say he isn't so much of a villain as he is the movie's antagonist (or one of them), since he causes the conflict but doesn't do so with evil intent?
Haley Graves My thoughts, pretty much.
I kind of felt like Moana didn't have, or necessarily need, a villain. What it had were plenty of antagonists (the village/ her father in resistance to change, Maui who caused everything in the first place, Te-Ka). It seems to me like adding an overarching villain would have co-opted Moana's growth. Facing an all-powerful villain will force you to grow in ways you didn't realize you could, but she engineered her personal growth by herself. She held back her sense for adventure long enough to keep the village intact, but once it reached a point where she knew defying her inner nature was now allowing the island to stay in danger, she threw those chains off immediately. She recognized exactly where to draw the line in understanding at what point her desire for adventure would have only satisfied her own selfish purposes, and at what point suppressing herself could only satisfy someone else's selfish purposes. For that, she didn't need a villain to help shape her life - she managed to shape her own life herself, and in the process, she became the instigation for change in the hearts of Maui and TeFiti.
Am I the only one who LOVES Mother Gothel? I think she's actually one of the best Disney villains around. I like how she had no magic , or henchmen , or muscle , she just had her wits and a knife , and with those things she was easily able to track and almost stop Rapunzel and Flynn.
I don't understand how people can adore Frollo- but then hate Gothel ? They are basically the same ? Both gaslighting, manipulative, abusers and extremely dark villains, as Gothel can be very real and same with Frollo.
ikr!? like Frollo and Gothel are two halves to the same whole. do i like Frollo more? yeah, but it's not like i think Gothel is the worst disney villain -cough cough still think it's The Queen from Snow White cough cough-
lol, if you can't see the difference, you lack a good eye, experience, or age, or maybe all three.
Pretty much because the point of Frollo as a disney villain was that he actually was that he believed he was a good man. Mother Gothel does not have that same level of drama. She was just a selfish person.
Frozen's villain twist was bad because we had no reason to suspect it happening at all. It felt lazily written because it just sort of happens with no sort of setup at all. Zootopia's works better though because the predator and prey relationship had been established as had the tension between Bellwether and Lionheart. Also, the plot of Zootopia is basically a detective story. Twists work well in that sort of story because your trying to figure out things along with the characters. With Frozen they just toss a twist on us with no warning or setup at all.
Many red flags about Hans were there throughout the film, they we just extremely subtle.
Watching this in 2019 and no Gigantic to be seen lmaooo
So I actually really disliked Frozen for it's meta nature and thought Hans clever but in the end kind of lackluster to a degree. I guess is just me wishing they were more inclined to the original material which had zero princesses and was just about a young girl trying to save her friend and the Ice Queen just being a metaphor. That in my opinion would have been a way more interesting film. I'm not saying Disney being meta is bad bit man does it get annoying especially when they're not subtle about it. Honestly if they want to break away from their past hoe about they I don't know do stories that aren't about Princesses, hence why I really liked Zootopia, which has it's faults but damn those were some well written main characters.
I specially love when people go "oh look Disney is making a critique of their traditional trope of having the princess marry a dude she just met and calling it true love, this time they're making Hans the villain to show it's dangerous to throw yourself at someone you met the same day!".... that's why in the end she decides to marry Kristoff, who she met that same day. IT'S TOTALLY A LIFE LESSON, GUYS!
Well, I mean, she didn't marry Kristoff, though. They sort of agreed to take it "slow" and kind of date first? Lesson learned! Get to know your boyfriends BEFORE you marry them, girls!
I love the sister story in Frozen, but all the romantic bits were kinda muddled. And Fixer-Upper remains an embarrassment.
natyfop
She doesn't marry Kristoff. Did you even watch the movie?
Same!
... Clever Hans? I see what you did there.
The closest we got to a classic villain in the last few years, was Tangled. The only other villain who stabbed a guy in the back and practically killed him was Gaston.
Her song may be more "upbeat" since she's pretending to protect Repunzel with love, but you gotta love her reprise song where she finds Repunzel in the woods and gives her the crown.
Coco had a pretty good villian, but again, false-flag villain.
I mean yeah, but at the same time, look at how he's drawn. I saw this guy and my first thought was 'oh he's evil'. I love Coco and I don't think it really weakens the movie, but personally I don't think the villain was terribly subtle.
There's also a Villains breakfast. I'm jealous of your Ratigan pins!!!! I've been collecting and trading since 98, but I've rarely seen Ratigan anything
Honestly the Maleficent film is where they really lost me. I hated how they took this deliciously evil character and remade her into a misunderstood sweetheart. You can provide dimension without removing the qualities that originally gave the character appeal. Had this been an original character instead of a reboot, I would have been less unhappy with the end product.
THANK YOU. This is precisely why I detest the Maleficent movie.
but thats what she was, a misunderstood character
Yep. Pretty much a teenager's fan fiction put on the big screen. Big credit to Angelina Jolie for taking a terrible story and managing to work with it.
+May May Was she though? Like don't get me wrong, ostracizing someone isn't good, but you get the feeling they had a reason to do it. Plus she showed up and straight up cursed a kid to die. And then got like . . . really unnecessarily invested in it. Evil people can have complex backstories and still be evil.
I highly doubt they could have expanded her character without rewrites. Shes just evil, thats it. She has no character traits others than that. How do you expand that and make her the protagonist of the film?
I just dont think maleficent could work at all (especially with her as the protagonist).
I noticed the twist-villain thing around the time I saw _Zootopia_. I believe my exact words were something like "This is like the fourth Disney movie in a row to have a mature character-driven narrative only to undercut it in the third act by having a Saturday morning cartoon villain pop up out of nowhere." When people care so much about the conflicts between the main characters, you don't even need a villain, and it's easy to imagine better versions of _Wreck-It Ralph_ and _Frozen_ where the story plays out without one entirely. Like, does Ralph's identity crisis ever even get resolved, or does he just sort of forget about it because oops now there's a villain and he's gotta go battle him. (And a twist where everyone's memories have been manipulated is second only to "It was all just a dream" as cop-out twists go.) And Anna could have learned that what's between her and Hans isn't True Love™ without him turning out to be evil, and it would have been such a richer narrative for it.
And you know why Disney has been doing it so much lately? Because Pixar started it. Disney saw that it was working for Pixar-especially in _Up_, which got a freaking Best Picture nom (and for the record I think Muntz was the worst part of that movie too)-and being the slaves to marketing that they are, just had to get in on that action. That's what Disney does now. They notice that something drew crowds in one movie and try to replicate that success over and over. Adjective titles! Live-action remakes! Self-parody! Ripping off _Wicked_! If it worked once, it's bound to work a million more times and surely audiences will never get sick of it! As long as the movie doesn't literally bomb, we'll assume we made the best choice! And if it does, we'll make the stupidest possible assumption as to why!
There was a villain in Wreck-It Ralph? God, that movie was so forgettable.
the guy from the racing game.
proudwonk Actually, when it comes to Pixar, the twist villain started with Toy Story 2 with Stinky Pete.
Lauren210 And each time my mom would predict the character that it would happen to I was like "No, I don't think it will, they alrea-...oh"
I mean at least Muntz had a reason to be evil, it's even hinted at!
Disney cancelled 'Gigantic' because Lindsey already gave out the entire plot
"When I was a lad I ate four dozen eggs
Ev'ry morning to help me get *LARGE*
And now that I'm grown I eat five dozen eggs
So I'm roughly the size of a *BARGE* "
"This is an unholy demon. I'm sending it back to hell..."
" *BE PREPARED!!!!!!!!!!!!* "
Some LOVELY quotes
I USE ANTLERS IN ALL OF MY DEEEEEECORAAATING
Nobody like Gaston
Ho what a man Gaston
I havent seen those movies or listened to the songs in probably more than 5 years but I read those lyrics in their voices and heard the music in my head
SEE HOW I GLITTER
Some one has defined my problem with the newest era of Disney films. Why does everything have to be deconstructed? This is what I think is happening in comics as well. Instead of just telling a really good Batman or Superman story we have to reexamine all our characters and villains and break tropes to make things interesting. Its tiring.
I think Disney is confused tbh, they want to follow the princess formula, because it works and people love it- but they also want to please the people who hate it at the same time. Moana proves this, because the movie has classical Disney musical singing, but then Maui says " If you sing... I'm going to puke " WTF ?!?
I think it often makes for pretty good stories actually (Zootopia, Wreck it Ralph, Moana, etc), rather than just repeat the same formula over and over.
I personnaly thought the "if you sing I'm gonna puke" line was hilarious XD and in-caharacter with Maui (at least the Maui before character development) for example.
In the case of the comics, it’s because the characters and their worlds have been done to DEATH. Remember, we’re going on 80 years worth of Superman stories, with almost no breaks in that time. The only way to keep making interesting stories with Batman or Superman is to deconstruct their common tropes. What could we possibly do with Batman and the Joker that would be both interesting and played straight?
Ryan McCurdy Have you read All-Star Superman? I think that has some straight up Superman tropes in it but it’s very good. It’s a special case, though. Most other famous/great Superman stories are deconstructions.
Well there might be good deconstructions of super heroes in the comics, I'm sure you're right... But I get the guy's message: recently in movies it kinda looks like deconstruction and self-awarness is a thing by itself. A good example is Thor Ragnarok. Now I get the deconstruction thing and everything, but I think it gets tiring veeeery quickly: after deconstructing, you need reconstructing. Otherwise that's just not constructive (well ,by definition you could tell me...). And I don't see that very much. I find the construction part much more interesting, deconstructing for the sake of it seems very "teenager" to me, like the director of Thor Ragnarok ("We've seen a lot of these boring villain's monologue scenes so let's just make fun of it you know..." Yeah and then what ???). That's also why these "breaking the 4th wall" stuff gets old very quickly to me: the writer is just winking at me... Ok I'm not his pal or smth, it really looks like trying to look like a smart ass.
Anyway sorry for the rant but I'm on the "tired of constant deconstruction" side, give me some new construction any time.
The Great Mouse Detective is my favorite animated Disney movie.
I actually deeply love Mother Gothel as a villain - her gaslighting rapunzel for an easier life and being the direct block to Rapunzel’s literal quest for identity, but also a block to her internal quest for identity, constantly stewing fears about her inadequacy and inability to be a romantic interest is so perfect. Just her mother knows best reprise is easily one of the creepiest and horrifying moments of the film
The thing with Hans is that he is actually a good character, only not that impressive of a villain. I have a feeling that Frozen could have easily been villain-less (except for nagging noblemen and the ice curse). The final twist was the plot point to make Elsa and Anna save each other. It could have been done differently than to make Hans a villain in the last 10 minutes of the movie. If anything, whoever was the legal guardian of the throne before Elsa was of age (a huge question, btw) would make more sense as the villain. At the end, Hans served his purpose, but him just being an ok guy, just not for Anna would equally point out that she was rushing into marriage. Gothel and Facillier, on the other hand, are awesome! Say what you want, but those two are totally in style with the great Disney villains of Golden Age or Renaissance.
My biggest problem with Hans (upon rewatch) was that it was so out of left field. I mean sure, that's the reason that it surprised so many people, but they could have found subtle ways to work in his real intentions. I get that he's a method actor and all, but there were moments where no one was watching and he was still playing the concerned good guy. Even the tiniest expression break would have gone a long way? As a writer it frustrates me, although Frozen is a good movie (I get back lash against hugely popular things is inevitable, but the extent of the Frozen backlash was kind of unjustified imo) it could have been so much *better*. Hans could have been a better villain, the plot holes could have been less . . . holey . . . but the movie was pretty great otherwise.
(I do miss old school villains though. So so much. Gothel was amazing. I'm all about complex characters, but like Voldemort was a multi-dimensional villain with a backstory and Harry Potter still had a clear good vs evil arc. I kind of miss that--there's not a lot of big bads in media these days.)
ThatCrazyBookWyrm What you mean like add something similar like the scene in How to Train your Dragon where Stoick disowned Hiccup, and, as soon as he stepped outside, took a back step, a breath, and gives off a look of pure heartbreak and regret?
I mean I guess? Realistically there was no reason for Hans to hold up the act when NO ONE was looking at him, but like I said he could have been hardcore method acting
@@ThatCrazyBookWyrm
I get the point you're trying to make, but while it would have made Hans more interesting, it would have made *Frozen* worse. Or at least, it would have not been what Frozen is trying to be about.
The Hans twist works in Frozen precisely *because* it comes out of left field. It has to come out of left field.
All of Anna's actions with regard to Hans fit into our preconceived notions of how a Disney Princess/Story is supposed to work. She has a Meet Cute, falls for him, they have a song about how much in common they are, and so forth. All of the story's signals are telling us that this is a person we can trust.
The lesson the film is trying to teach with this moment is precisely why you don't marry someone you just met: because you don't really know them yet.
If the audience knew, or even suspected, what Anna did not, then the moment of subversion wouldn't drive this home for the audience. We would know well ahead of time that Hans was Up To Something, so when he eventually reveals himself, it wouldn't be as powerful.
By doing it the way the film does, we buy into Hans's The Wise Prince shtick just as much as Anna does. And thus, when he reveals himself, we're hurt just as much as she is. That moment is not just about what Hans does to Anna; it's about what Hans does to *us* as the audience.
Yes, this makes Hans as a character weaker by essentially reducing him to a plot device (Diablos Ex Machina). But it makes Frozen as a movie better at doing the thing that it wants to do.
@@GeneralBolas Oh wow, I honestly didn't think about it that way. That's probably the most justified reason for having a character who behaves like Hans. That's absolutely what the movie was going for, and it probably succeeded. I know a lot of kids (especially little girls) grew up with the "love at first sight" mentality after a lot of earlier Disney movies, so hopefully Frozen taught this generation of kids to get to know someone first. I'm just going to assume that Hans was an extreme method actor, and refused to break character for most of the movie. Thank you so much for replying! It made me appreciate Frozen more :)
Did you and the Nostalgia Critic talk recently? 'Cause you released basically the same video on the same day. If it wasn't intentional, it's frickin' incredible.
This better not be another Ants/Bugs Life situation, but with a video essay.
Her response to my comment "Wow, the timing could not be funnier. Doug just released a similar editorial coming to CZcams…tonight" was "kill me", which sounds like she thought I was condemning her for it. Was not the intention. I thought it was innocuous like yours
aem the writer what video
It wasn't intentional... and I'll only call it incredible if it sweeps me up in a favorable CZcams algorithm.
I was about to say exactly the same thing! Looking forward to watching this, though :)
Man, Doofenshmirtz was MY disney villain growing up
"An actual heartless person" made me choke on my coffee. Thank you.
I really liked Mother Gothel, both as a character and a villain. Why is she widely disliked? :(
Ryan Mason I think it might be because she's just a normal human other than being immortal
Ryan Mason maybe the abusive parent thing hit too close to home for some? thats my best guess.
Ryan Mason She maybe doesn't have the most distinctive personality. She is a cool villain, though.
I like her. Between Princess and the Frog and Tangled I thought she was the better villain in those two movies. While I love classic Renaissance villains like Ursula, Gaston, Jafar, Scar, Frollo, Hades, and Yzma, looking at those movies back to back you can see the villains were becoming increasingly stale as their motivations and goals basically boiled down to greed and/or take over the world (of course!) Dr. Facillier was no exception and came across as another generic villain from that era whose goal is to get rich and take over New Orleans. Mother Gothel felt unique because while her motivation is greed, it is also rooted in vanity, hearkening back to golden age Disney in the vein of the Evil Queen from Snow White or Lady Tremaine. She stole Rapunzel, the princess and sole heir of the kingdom, and does she think she could possibly get more out of this? No. She's just content to hold a girl prisoner just so she could harness her power and potential. Critics even noted how Gothel really showcase the poisonous tactics used by real abusive parents to hold power over their victim and that she uses "love" as her most powerful weapon than a poison apple or a spindle.
Mother Gothel is fun, she's just very... small. Not so much capital-E Evil, more just unpleasant and emotionally abusive. Also Mother Knows Best sounds like she's having too much fun doing a Broadway number to actually terrorise Rapunzel.
Zootopia was pretty amazing up until the villain twist thing. That was pretty lame. Hopefully they knock off the mandatory twist stuff and introduce a cool villain in the next big movie.
Arccway it was a detective story, you kind of need a twist.
I knew Bellwether was the villain as soon as she was appointed replacement mayor. She was the only one with anything to gain from the whole mess.
it also made the metaphor kind of confusing
slashandbones13 "Some people profit from prejudice and will actively reinforce it"? Ain't that hard.
Alex MacDougall Agreed. The main conflict of Zootopia is societal, embodied by the relationship between Judy and Nick. Really the thematic climax of the movie is their reconciliation under the bridge -- it didn't really matter who was behind the whole thing. It had to be somebody for the police drama, but Bellwether doesn't relate to the main characters specifically.
I need to put in a word of defense for 'treasure island in space' as you call it - it was one of my absolute favourite disney movies ever to be produced with memorable, awesome pictures and so much mood, i get that it was not very popular but some of the scenes created such a mood that even years after last watching it i still think of the world and aesthetic they created there. No idea why but it was strangely marvelous to me :)
I think it's just as important for Disney films to have groundbreaking heroes as well as groundbreaking villains. For example, I really liked Hercules in HERCULES because he's a more down-to-earth kind of guy. He doesn't wish for anything big like to be a prince or a real boy or a restaurant owner, or to get the girlfriend/boyfriend that's way out of his/her league. All he wanted was to be reunited with his true mother and father, and this was before he knew they were gods! And while he does become a great hero, it doesn't turn him arrogant the way it did, say, Aladdin. This easily makes Hercules light-years more sympathetic than "heroes" like Peter Pan, a boy who had literally everything he could ever wish for and still wanted more.
And actually, I've gotten to the point where I don't want to see that much complexity in ANY villain. Go ahead and give villains some SUPERFICIAL admirable qualities (being brave, clever, creative, etc.), but don't make them sympathetic! This should go especially for the BATMAN movies. Batman's grim and tragic enough already, so I want his adversaries to be as cartoonish as possible while still being certifiably evil and scary (and mind you, I'm talking Jack Nicholson destroying an art gallery cartoonish, NOT Jim Carrey prancing around and giggling cartoonish). An angsty and guilt-ridden Batman villain is just going to drag the mood of the story even more.
I loved Princess and the Frog and I think it was the last Disney movie with that classic Disney feel. It had an awesome antagonist that gave you the feeling an amazing Disney villain should that we don't see in any other modern Disney films (except maybe Mother Gothel, but honestly I forget about her a lot except that Mother Knows Best song) and wonderful characters, including a princess that's a good role model. No one pays attention to it, which is quote upsetting to me because it's one of my favorite movies and I believe it should get more recognition. Most people argue that the songs aren't as good as Frozen's or whatever but I would politely disagree. Maybe it's because people don't appreciate some good jazz. I also think Princess and the Frog is a better movie than Frozen, plot-wise and character-wise. But again, so little recognition.
Yes,PatF is very Renaissance-esque movie. And I love it.
RubyTigress That would be Winnie Pooh in 2011, a very forgotten film btw
Sophia Goodman-Merel It was actually not the last Disney movie with that classic Disney feel at all.
Frozen suck ass, bad protagonist, bad antagonist, a bad explained and developed message and too much commercial songs. The princess and the frog was the complete opposite to that
Can I throw in my hot take? I never saw The Princess and the Frog because the title was dumb
I really don't like how they made Hanz the villain. He should have just been a straightforward good guy who kissed Anna, and found out that they hadn't taken the time to learn true love.
THEN when he sees the love between the sisters, he learns a little bit more about what true love is and GROWS as a character.
Yeah, this was a big disappointment with the movie for me. It felt really cheap to cast Hanz as a straight villain for a lot of reasons, and I think he would have worked better as a well-intentioned antagonist. Hanz is desperate to save Arendel in the classic hero fashion, Anna is desperate to save Elsa, and the two end up in conflict over that, with them coming to realize that they didn't know each other at all, and now that they do, it's just not going to work.
Knollock heck, they could have even had Hanz want to protect Elsa from that other generic bad guy, but caught in way too much for one person to handle. This could have been his own story of love, which is love for the people.
A lot of birds in one stone.
It's Hans. With an S. Just wanted to say. Now I'm blabbering.
Frozen would have been good if it isn't was Frozen and the writers cared more for the art than for the money
Or, if they wanted to make Hans the villain, there should have been little hints that he wasn't as good as he seemed throughout the film. Even sociopaths can't hide their nature 100% of the time.
I knew Hans was gonna be bad from the moment Elsa said sandwiches and he said "that's what I was gonna say" I can't be the only one who saw that "twist" coming from a mile away.
Rebekah Nunes me too! Honestly the Hans twist was nothing new, it was a classic "the great guy who seems too great to be true omgohwaitshockhorror turns out he was too great to be true!" trope. As soon as he was introduced I was like "here is our bad guy".
@@leeshdee9269 I was shocked because it was just so dumb. I didn't think there was going to be a villain at all, though I had no idea how the story was going to resolve Anna having two guys supposedly in love with her despite her just meeting them. Apparently the answer was to just turn one of them into a twist villain like it's a writer's first attempt at a story.
Me: I feel like I've definitely watched this video, right?
"And Hades is the only Disney villain voiced by an actual heartless person."
Me: Okay, now I remember this one.