🔴 Film Scanning with Leica Camera vs Flatbed + Best Lens to Use (Valoi Easy35 vs Epson v800)
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- čas přidán 24. 07. 2024
- Happy with flatbed film scanners (Epson v800) but this is 21x FASTER/ SHARPER! Valoi Easy35
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Hey Matt! If you like the Valoi Easy35, have a look at Blackscale Labs. Just like the Easy35, you don't have to spend any time leveling the camera. You do have a film holder with the Blackscale, but I still find it faster than the Valoi medium format rig because of the quick setup.
If you keep using the v850 and want to shave off some time - Silverfast 9 "Expressscan" function will scan multiple parallel pictures at the same time, and it dramitically shortens the scan times.
Also, for large format, I followed the youtube channel "Figital Revoluion" guide and raised my scanner bed to the optimal height so I don't use the holders anymore, which saves time.
For scanning with the Easy35, aside from NLP, have a look at FIlmlab App and Negafix. I feel both of those yield superior results for inversion vs. NLP or just LR.
Thanks for the export as TIFF and reimport! Had no idea.
No problem Will! I probably saw it from another video so all good!
I scan my B&W negatives using a Leica m10 Monochrome and lens spacers. Perfect.
What lens do you use? What lens spacer do you use? Thanks for any help!
Niceeee John! I totally overlooked Monchrom cameras, very cool idea. Yes I know you'll need spaces/ a few tricks to make it work perfectly with M bodies. Thanks for sharing.
90 Macro Elmar + close focus adapter for that lens would be my first guess. I used to own it.
Wow! Matt this was a very interesting video. I did not know about this product at all. I loved the results you got. As always your enthusiasm is very contagious. Thank you so, much Matt and as always God Bless you. Roger
Thanks Roger! No problem!
The Valoi has been a game changer for me. Excellent results
Great Chris, yes very impressed so far!
I use the inserts for the valoi 360 on a 30 dollar light source. I can shoot 35mm and 120 the downside is the setup is on a cstand with superclamp and tripod head.
They came out with the easy 35 a month after i bought the inserts.
For the reverse vignette try cutting the exposure It's really noticeable the more i overexpose.the camera scan.
I kept my pentax k1 just to scan negatives. Using a 90mm tamron.
If you want to overcomplicate things hook up a monitor to the hdmi out of your camera and use it as a digital loupe.
Cheers
Thanks Cecil! Great tips. I used to use the 90 Tamron in my Nikon DSLR days!
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom there is a huge rabbit hole about camera scanning i haven't explored. Post processing in a raw editor.. the point about picking a black point and the base layer just flew over my head.
I'm not really motivated to sit down with a tutorial and learn another digital skill just yet. My motivation is all going toward wet printing at the moment.
I'm trying to get acceptable results from a vivitar e34. Once i get that nailed down the rabbit hole i'm exploring is a phillips enlarger with color head.
Great new setup! Thanks for showing us how it works!
Thanks Hidde, I know you have a great setup too!
Thanks for the helpful comparison. Im scanning with the Nikkor 2,8/55 mm for years and it always amazed me compared to scanned results. The hint to reimport negatives as Tiffs is really helpful as it is an elegant way to remove the problem of having to work with inverted adjustment-sliders in Lightroom or whatever you use for your editing.
Thanks, yes great lens! Yes the TIF trick helps so much as you basically get all the normal controls (in the right direction!) again..so a bit like having 2 curve layers to play with, first, export, second.
Another excellent video Mat, you inspired me to drag out my PB-4 bellows & PS-4 slide copying adapter. I used my D7100 & natural light, now comes the task of editing.
Thanks and great stuff!
Really helpful video, thank you !!
Looks like the perfect scan system for 35mm.
I will order one and hope to get rid of all the Scanners, and other bulky Setups !
Thanks, happy to share. Yes I was very impressed with it!
Do you recall that line in ‘The Italian Job’ where Caine says ‘you were only supposed to blow the doors off’? Well you don’t need to scan every frame at full resolution on a flatbed, low resolution is fine as a digital contact sheet and then rescan the good ones. But yes, camera scanning is far, far superior. I use a Nikon Z7 with a 105 Z micro lens. Congrats on the video for putting it all into perspective for people.
Thanks Steve, haha and yes good point, I'm a weird now where I scan all at full res with the plan that I might like some, now or in the future and want to edit them later!
Great timing on this video as I've come back to shooting film recently with my Contax G2 and am looking for a solid scan solution for mostly color, but some BW work. Good stuff, Matt!
Excellent! Lucky timing then!
I’m using my Leica SL2-S with a Sigma 70mm 2.8 Macro and the Valoi. My negatives take up the full frame with 1 Valoi tube and the results are great. Thanks for the video!
Thanks for sharing, great tip!
I have been copying (scanning) film since the early 60's with the Leica BEOON kit. (film to film back then and film to computer file now) It now works excellent with my Nikon Zf and a NZ to Leica adapter. Works with 35mm, 120, & 3 1/2 x5. I tether in the processing software Capture 1 or PS & use the "image/adjustment/invert" tool to get a proper positive image. save as whatever you prefer DNG, PSD TIFF JPEG. If you use the PS "Layer/new layer adjustment/invert" tool you get a negative and a positive in the same PSD file.
Ah great stuff Stuart. Yes I think inverting the image and then editing as a new file/ layer gives much better results.
Very nice results!
I also scan my 35mm film with a camera, Sony A7. Homemade film holder.
There is no special film software or plugin necessary in opinion. I can run color or neg through the regular Camera Raw and Photoshop.
But it might be easier in the beginning to use the plugins. It saves a few clicks.
Thanks! Yes I think the PlugIn is great for people getting started but not required.
I use a Nikon D3X that is retired from studio use but is now my “rostrum” camera for flat artwork and neg scanning. It has a 60mm macro Nikkor on the front and the negs go into an enlarger carrier (borrowed from my darkroom) on top of a led lightbox. With that I can scan any size of negative up to 10x8 inches.
Great stuff Howard and those Nikkor Micro lenses are good!
That's a great method for B&W film strips but leaves me still out in the cold for the slides I was taking. OTOH, a brilliant review of the Valoi. It seems just the solution to film strip digitizing. Cheers
Thanks Sandy, no check their website, I think they do slide option too**
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom Matt, not sure if it is sloth or senility but I found it when directed. Thank you. If I buy the damned thing I had ~40 years of slides to copy. 40 years of amateur shooting, nothing like what you do. My 40 years is your trip to Warsaw in amount. Makes me wish it were Covid again, sorta. Thanks again.
This is nice. Gotta learn how you exported the file as TIFF and then imported a positive. Can see myself ordering this kit. My Epson scans for 35 have been hit and miss but the time factor is probably one reason I’ve shot less BW film. Look forward to trying this out. Might use my Fuji since I don’t own the Leica CL. And that Nikkor 55 would be a good purchase as well.
Thanks Pete! Yes Fuji is fine and 55 is great!
Thank you for this intriguing video. I suspect you could get excellent scans of your larger format negatives with your SL, a copy stand, and a high quality led panel -- it would at least be interesting to try! If the light was not sufficiently uniform, I suspect you could add a piece of ground glass or a fresnel to correct.
Thanks! Yes Valoi do other products which are more suitable for MF & LF. I want to get a LF enlarger solution next :) ..but I need to capture some good negs first!
Hi Matt, this was very very good video, but I would like to make a couple of points. You have to make sure that your film holder is at optimum height for focus on the flatbed as these have a fixed focus that seems to be different from scanner to scanner. The light of the flatbed goes through the thick scanner galss so light scatter has to be compensated for in software by applying special sharpening. To make the comparison fair you should have down sampled the image from the digital camera to the same size as that of the flatbed. I wouldn't scan @ 4800 dpi, as this is an interpolated figure. The true resolution of the flatbed is around 2800 dpi for my V700, perhaps it is a bit higher on V800 as they used coated optics, I think.
Thanks great info! Yes I've done flatbed scanning since.. it feels like birth haha..so I have mine well dialled in. I've always been happy and people often wrote to me on Flickr asking how I got good results from the v800 for 35mm. But it was too slow.
I use the essential film holder for both 35mm and 120 film.
Great thanks, I know there are multiple options out there for scanning now.
I just got an Easy35 last week. I'm using it with my D7000 and getting pretty good results. I need someone to drop that 60 in my lap so I can try my M10. 😉
Congrats! You can use any less on the M10 remember, get the cheap Nikkor 55 2.8 + adapter. I use that now + extension tube to get closer*
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom Thanks, Matt. That's a very affordable lens!
Thanks. What about color, how are you scanning color v800 vs this? I had issues with color scanning on flatbed. This might be great.
I don't shoot much colour these days but yes I've always used my v800 + SilverFast and no issues.
Very interesting. The Valoi produces the better image compared to the Epson for sure and the speed is amazing. I assume you had no issues with the film being held flat and because of the adapter tubes a parallel plane of focus. Have you considered a video of scanning a negative, converting and editing from start to finish?
Thanks Mikey, yes no issues with flat film as held parallel to the sensor. Great design/ product. Maybe I'll do a future video with end to end if there is enough demand but I show most of it here.
Hi Matt, Great job, and in many ways educational 😊. I was wondering if you have considered using the Leica Q in Macro mode for this?
Thanks! I've not, I think 26mm might be a little too wide for scanning
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom I agree that 28mm is too wide, however, the ability of the Q2 to go from 28-35-50-70 mm internal crop (only in jpeg not in RAW) would use the sharpest part of that extraordinary lens. But one would be limited to jpeg format. It was a thought.
czcams.com/users/livedko_cFVxqFg?si=KYsa1iMMt5a-iAK9
Hey Matt, for that Easy35 kit how do you fine tune your focus distance to maximize your resolution? It looks like you only have rather large extension tubes, is there a variable tube to dial in that framing? TIA!
yes it comes with lots of tube lengths so you pick the ones you need to fill the frame. I used the close focus adapter to fine tune.
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom Thanks Matt!
Looks very good (until I saw the price of the Valoi!)
I have a Canon 50mm f3.5 macro lens that I picked up from ebay several years ago for very little (£35 I think - complete with the 25mm extension tube) and the Canon Bellows FL, complete with slide duplicator and accessories that I got for £54 from the same source. The whole lot fits on my M10-P with a simple FD to LM adapter. I've only used to copy a few slides (which it's done well). I'll have to dig out my old negative folders and look back at what I was shooting in the 1970's and early 80's!
Great, yes there are so many scanning solutions out there now for digital cameras there is something for everyone. I found this from great reviews and it works for me.
Have you ever used Topaz Photo AI for cleaning up scans and photos. And VueScan scanning software with your Epson?
No sorry, I keep my process really basic/ simple.
I sold my Epson v800 last month. I was glad I did since it’d been collecting dust at my house. Valoi seems to be a good option, especially it’s very portable and with the duster. I’m curious about the CRI value on the Valoi, for the light source. Easy 120 will be pretty cool if someday they make one.
Thanks Wei! I need to sell my v600 (still). Yes it's great. They do MF and LF options I think too and yes as asked about a Easy 120!
Matt...what adjustments do you make in the silver fast software? My Epson black and whites are grim
Nothing special. I just adjust by eye to taste, 3200 dpi, I did a blog post with screenshots in the past on MrLeica.com
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom thanks I tried the demo of silverfast and it seemed a bit better than the Epson s/w, as you said, probably get that.
Valoi was the only camera based "scanner" that I have been interested due to its W shape bend to secure the negative at the scan area, while other system seems to slosh around. One thing I didn't get to mentioned at the zoom call yesterday, my concern with camera scanning vs. scanner scanning is that camera scanning is limited to 12-bit, 14-bit if you are those lucky one. V600/V800 gives you 16-bit B&W raw scan out of the gate and 48-bit scan in color. Yes, many said that it doesn't matter, but I am still skeptical. From your example, I think the V800 does indeed give you more tonal information (I was looking at the column cylinder under the bridge), while the camera "scan" jumps to the bright sooner. Bit depth is probably overkill and nuances that keep us up at night; but what do you think?
Hey Rex, thanks. I would say don't use my images for that level of reference as a small brightness adjustment (or contrast) between the Epson scan and Valoi will show as different. I tried to mimic the results close enough but not to that level. I think for normal people, me for basic scanning (not Arno, more precise, -hope you see this! :D) I think 12 bit is OK as I like the imperfections anyway. For super detailed people I guess it's like scan vs drum scan, you can probably get more detail if you need it. ..and cameras will keep improving..
Those are great points! I felt like consumer scanner technology is sort of on a standstill, or maybe they had reached their limit. My V600 felt like the same tech of the last scanner I owned back in the early 2000. And LaserSoft looks like they gave up on updating SilverFast. So like you said, flatbed is sort of at a dead end and camera sensor is only going to improve over time.
Matt : You speak of using or adding a vignette , are you using the Sprocket Holder ? I do not know if they sent that in your kit , it is offered and exposes more ( the sprockets ) so is this why the images have the bright surround ?
I have been interested in this product since earlier last year , and I have it in my cart at the Camera Store , or the shop in Europe. I have spent thousands digitizing and developing film at a Pro shop on US West coast. I like the results and my MICRO NIKKOR 55mm is currently being CLAD for sticky aperture blades in New York at CAMERA DOCTOR NYC ... I like the R mount 60mm lens but am not certain is worth the upgrade until I get my EASY 35 and start using it. Very refreshing topic and very good images / video of the actual product. My reason to purchase to use while traveling overseas when I can again. Again very good video Matt. Thanks. C
Thanks Chris, 55 vs 60R are very similar, both great. I got 2 holders, I need to experiment more and try both and check light falloff. Yes great travel setup 100%
Looks like you're getting a bit more dynamic range with the Valoi? Also the 55mm lacks a bit of contrast compared to the other ones (maybe confirmation bias as I have the 60mm hah). I used to scan with the camera fixed facing down on a copy stand/enlarger. Pros to that are negative size doesn't matter and you can slide the column/camera up and down depending on it. Cons are getting the thing level with the light panel underneath is a bit of a pain.
Thanks Thomas! Not sure about DR, I think it was just how I was processing in LR but yes out the box they are lower contrast and I liked it.More vintage maybe haha. Yes this setup is very easy and no dust issues which I like vs normal copy stand setup
Pretty interesting. I personally use a 20 year old opticscan 7200, not because it is so good(hust my colors a extremely off), no I use it because I invested so much time into it. But it would probably work if I would use my camera for it
Yes I've never looked at digital scanning as I was happy until I realised the time it was taking!
I think they just announced/released the 120!
Thanks Adrian, yes I was chatting to them after this video. I'll try to review one as soon as I get a chance. Stay tuned!
Any Lumix camera with hi-res mode and a modern macro lens works perfetly for scanning. You can see even shape of grains and edit negatives in raw format.
Thanks Igor, yes 100%.. I even looked at the S1R as a scanning solution! ..but then I read more MP are not needed so I scrapped that idea.
It's simple and it works.
But if the Valoi is out of your price range and you have access to a 3D printer there are other similar solutions out there that are free.
Yes there are so many cool 3D printed products now!
Good video. I just find the Valoi a little expensive for being made in 3D print for occasional usage, same as the Nikon (which was half the price). There are other stuff far less expensive without a light source to begin with. Then for your usage I understand I would just like a better build quality. Intersting comparison anyway with the flat scan and the old 55mm f 2.8 doesn t seems so old finally. You can easily find it between 100 and 150$ which is definitely a good bargain. The autofocus 60mm is better but rather on the angles so can t make the difference here and it can be found around 200$ so good bargain too. Have a nice day and thx a lot for these original videos.
Thanks! Yes luckily there are various price points now for home scanning so something for everyone.
I tried using a camera to scan film - an Olympus OMD-5 Mk 2 with a 12-40 pro lens pointed down towards the film held over a lightbox in the Epson film holders. It was way too much trouble compared to using my V500 + Silverfast and was no good at all for transparencies. I can see why speed is important for you but as I don’t earn money from photography or feed the instagram beast, I’ll stick with the V500.
Thanks Ian, yes 100%, that's why i've never been bothered with all the "faff" of normal digital scanning and so I stuck with my V800 but now this device is just clip on and go it works for my needs. Both options give nice images so something for everyone.
I have no use for this now, but maybe one day? ;-) My ideal scanner is a device which is as quick as a paper shredder, while giving you the depth of a cinema film scanner. I won't hold my breath.
BTW I've seen camera scans from various cameras, and they aren't all good. The Canons seem to be the worst (no surprise) from what I've seen. So you can't assume that every camera is going to give you the same results.
Edit: I am suprised that diffraction at f/22 wasn't worse! It was actually not too bad TBH.
Thanks! Yes the f22 were passable hence I didn't notice my error. I just thought they looked more vintage haha. I'm happy with the Valoi results for my needs.
At @4:07 lens and easy35 moves around a lot when you pull the film through, wouldn't that shift the focus? After setting the focus with the magnifying, it was odd that you didn't react to that. Also, are you not using gloves when handling the negatives?
You probably know that they are developing the easy120 for 120 film and a film holder for 35mm film will be available according to Valio.
Thanks I had no issues left to right movement but I later found with the lens sitting on top of a notebook centred the cropping better. Yes 120 to come! I’ll try to review it.
Flatbed scanners are terrible for 35mm. I love the results I am getting out of my PrimeFilm XA dedicated 35mm film scanners. Those CCD sensor results are great. It does take time scan but if I wanted speed I stick to digital.
It depends how you hold the film. My Epson v800 has been great but I know you can get even better results from dedicated 35mm scanners.
nice video, very interesting gadget
I scan my negatives with my Sony A7R5 and a sigma art 2.8 70mm macro lens. The results are much better than the images from my scanner. With negativ lab pro and Lightroom are the positives perfect.
The Hasselblad scanner is definitely an alternative for a perfect scan, but 5000€ for a used scanner is a lot of money. The Leica lens I prefer is the 2.8 100mm R lens. But this lens is also very expensive.
So Sony and Sigma is my equipment for scanning film.
You mean the Flextight X5? AFAIK that is a superb unit.
Thanks! Yes I just used the lenses I already owned but I know the 100mm is nice!
Hi Matt✌
Top video is clear👌👌And thumbs OBLIGATORY up👍 If you already have the lens from Nikkor why not with the corresponding camera from Nikon? Would be easier without the adapters😁 Really so good I understand the ambition there flexible and also for travelling and working faster than with the scanner😉
Lg Anderl
Thanks! I did test some digital Nikon cameras but they are similar to Lumix and just don't inspire me to pick them up. I rarely pick up my Lumix even though all these cameras can take nice photos.
@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom it was meant for scanning the films since you used Nikkor lenses
Excuse my ignorance
I used negative lab pro and the alternative I don’t think my brain computes
Are you saying export the scanned neg as a tiff
And then how do I import as a positive ?
Hi, all good, I'm just learning myself! Yes import negative (as normal, from SD card), invert with LR, (Google it if unsure but super fast), export as TIF. Then import TIF then same as you imported your camera JPEGs and go from there. Big difference from my testing!
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom Thanks Matt. I'm using NLP and I just saw after posting this that there is a Make copy option and the option is a TIFF. Whilst the NLP editing sliders are good actually editing a TIFF in LR does allow you to use much more refinement techniques. I have to say the Valoi easy 35 is a game changer for me and the scans are better and I have more control. Using the Loupe is a great idea too. I used to be dissappointed with my images and then I looked at the processing methods and scans and now I'm much happier. Shout out for AG photo Labs too their dip and dunk processing also gives me better negs to work with than others I used.
Great tip
There I’ve been inverting curves in LRC then just working on that file never thought to export and re import cheers@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom
With the right lens you can fill an entire full frame sensor with the full 35mm film frame so it’s a 1to1 scan.
Thanks! Yes if I can find my old Nikon F extension tubes I can do it with that I think..instead of buying another lens.
I too was put off by the price of the Valoi so went for the JJC equivalent, which I understand to be a Chinese knock-off of the original Nikon scanner. It works perfectly with my Nikon D750 + 60mm f/2.8 micro, and far superior to the V600 that I tried and returned.
The difference from the Valoi is it only has variable brightness (set to max as Matt did) so maybe for colour negs the lack of temperature adjustment might matter to some. Also it only accepts cut strips (max 6) but as Matt points out, you'll be cutting the
film for archiving anyway. Though it can be a pain to load, it does hold the negative nicely flat.
I'm not sure about the Valoi dust removal brushes though, looks like a scratch generator though I'm happy to be corrected!
JJC 35mm Film Negative Scanner about £72 in UK - I wish someone would produce a medium format equivalent at reasonable cost!
Thanks! Yes I'm sure there are plenty of good alternatives out there. I found this from lots of positive reviews online so went with it. It does have temp control, the second dial on the box. Yes to MF/LF scanning but I think Valoi do those too but just a more generic lighttable setup.
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom Yes there are loads of options for 135 & 120 formats (too many!)
For medium format, I use the same camera/lens set-up on a Manfrotto tripod head mounted on a home made copy stand, very rugged but hardly portable!
I started off with the Digitaliza negative holder but had some reservations about it so now use the EFH 645 & 6x6 holder above a Raleno LED source which is much brighter (and has both brightness and temperature adjust) and am perfectly happy with the results.
I tried the V600 because (in theory) it should produce better scans in medium format, but the reality was sadly different hence the return.
Thanks for all the videos, keep up the good work!
Real question is.....Does it really saves time on Color negatives? Because the time it takes to correctly invert them- might take longer than a Flatbed already doing it for you, and probably more consistent [as Negative Lab Pro solutions might give you different inversion tints for each image, even if it's from the same scene/series of images.
Any thoughts..? 😶🌫
Good point. I feel you need to correct for each set of similar images with both solutions so probably still faster.
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom Thanks. I didn't try negative lab pro yet. Doesn't those plugins automate the inversion process for each frame separately? They do some kind of average probably, so, say you took the same image, that in one of them you just had more blue skies in the frame...this means NLP will invert and calculate things differently than the other. I'm not sure you can give a command to the plugin to convert a series of photos in the same manner etc
So I have a hunch there might be a lot of work involved in fixing color tints in mamy images. Hope I wrong, and that someone found a workflow solution to it
😊
Thanks!
I like my flatbed because i can scan my Widelux negatives.
As far as 120, 4X5, 5X7 and 8X10 or special size negatives are concerned, the flatbed is unsurpassed. Try buying a Flexitght X1 or a Heidelberg Tango without a remortgage.
Nice! yes I need my v800 for my 6x12 and 4x5 etc :)
Next step. “Scan” your model directly. 😉
Haha love that. :D
valoi is $400 cnd wow thats high
I think they are aiming for the top of the market based on the quality and the price.
Your Nikkor lens will be sharpest at f5.6.
Correct Ian, as I'm a geek I was pretty sure from old lens test videos but I did it anyway. Yes all 3 mentioned lenses best at f5.6. (I think many people assume f11 and perhaps new photographers think f22).
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom I frequently digitise 8X11 mm and 16mm subminiature negatives, in such a way that they fill the frame on the APSC sensor in my Fuji XE-1. I can clearly see the drop in resolution at smaller and larger apertures. I also focus at f5.6 because there is a slight shift in focus if I focus at the maximum aperture and stop down.
I always scan with the emulsion facing the camera lens and flip the image in LR.
It seems to me that you math is off, by a wide margin: if each negative takes 1.5 minutes and each roll has 36 negatives it will be 54 minutes per roll. Then 54 per roll times 6 it gives less than 6 hours. Still a lot, but far less than a day for most definitions of a day.
Thanks Jaime, Yes sorry I just know from real world experience I loose a day if I have to scan.. it takes time to load the holder, then I adjust the brightness of each image in Silverfast beforehand as needed, eating in-between etc etc. It was a chore (and mainly I don't have free days anymore)
Scanning is crap. Project in wet darkroom printing or waste of time! I love Digital!
Thanks Jason, Yes I enjoy the darkroom but scanning allows me to share film images to a wider audience.