Muzzle (Crown) Repair & Accuracy
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- čas přidán 28. 08. 2021
- In this episode, we'll recut a 90 degree crown on the muzzle of an 1886 Winchester that was cut crooked back in the days of its use. Then we'll see if it improves the accuracy of this old ranch rifle.
I discovered you and your channel about a week ago. Absolute gold. For society to condemn someone such as yourself. With nothing but education and history throughout. Is a testimony of our times. CZcams be ashamed. Monitize the guy for cryin out loud.
I just love it when you can bring an old barrel back to life. I feel like this is an issue with a lot of older well used rifles and people are too quick to just toss a new aftermarket barrel on it.
I agree. I'll try whatever I can to get an original barrel shooting well again. When all else fails, most old barrels can be relined and a new chamber and crown cut.
Glad you guys made it through the fires ok! We sure appreciate these videos, we know they are a net loss in time and money but we are so grateful for the huge amount of history, knowledge, technical skill and beautiful scenery you share with us!
Thanks so much Adam. I really appreciate the compliments! There's a lot of time, money and effort that goes into making them, but I really enjoy it. It's good to hear that there are people who like the end product.
I think our numbers got crossed up. I've got an 1886 45-70 that letters as a 40-82. Nice video... I'm really enjoying the old lever gun knowledge and care.
Too bad mine's been cut down. We could just swap them out. 😀 Thanks for watching!
So good you are back! Prayers were certainly answered for protection from the fire! Very enjoyable video.
Thanks a bunch Joe!
Had a Winchester 44-40 that would not shoot accurately for me and this was the problem! Had it recrowned and it shot beautifully ! The previous owner had dropped it from horseback while hunting a number of years back and just quit using it because it never would shoot right again ! I got the rifle on a trade for a 30-30 that he liked of mine! Under 200 dollars I got a lovely shooter and family keepsake! Have taught a number of kids to shoot with it over the 30 years I've had it! Protect your guns muzzle and you can get years of great memories! Great video and God bless you for sharing this wonderful lesson with us!
Thanks Jerry! Sounds like have a great old '73. I knew muzzle condition impacted accuracy, but I was a little surprised at how much this one improved. You're absolutely right when you say to protect that muzzle
Hi Mark great video! I like all the good machine work. Shows you what a difference in accuracy it can make. So glad the fire didn't get you! Deb and I have you and Erin in our prayers always
Thanks for the prayers, Doc! Hope you and Debbie are doing well
Good to see you back on CZcams...and also glad you avoided the fires. Loved this video. Looking forward to more. A rebarrel of the 86 would be enjoyable.
Thanks James. I'll keep looking for a replacement barrel and mag tube and show the process. when I find them.
Great video! I really like these old rifles and appreciate your work! Keep em coming.
Thanks CD!
Wow! What a difference. Simply great video.
I sure am enjoying your videos!
Do love your videos and I'm glad you enjoy them enough to keep making them. I learn so much from you and your videos which is a great help with my own gunsmithing and collecting. Thanking God for your good fortune with the wildfires missing you.
Glad to hear that the fire didn’t make it over the ridge above your house.
Have to tell the story. First year 1886 serial number, wearing a P.O. Ackley marked .45-70 barrel for sale. Cheap. Early 1990s. Tried to convince my Dad to buy it. He wouldn't do it because it wasn't "original". Years later my wife's Uncle who had worked for Ackley in his Trinidad Colorado shop, and then later at the TSJC as a Gunsmithing Instructor, said it was entirely possible he rebarreled that one himself. "We did so many." He said.
I'd love to know your uncle and be able to hear the stories he could tell.
I love older rifles
Just the history in your hands feelin
Great video
New sub brother
Thanks for watching and subscribing!
Glad to hear the fires missed you. That muzzle cleanup did the trick. I can't imagine anyone cutting it down and using it as it was beyond 25 yards.
To be honest, I was surprised at just how poorly it did shoot.
Love the video. Looking forward to come see you again. Wish you well my friend.
Thanks Trevor!
Another great video Mark! Keep them coming, best channel on youtube!
Thanks so much!
Thats crazy that it made that much difference in accuracy.i love those old rifles.
You got it on the paper! I'm still waiting for my .32-20 . Redman is going to turn the muzzle crown .030 to get rid of a poorly placed end cap groove. So I will have to shorten the magazine tube to match the new end cap tab groove if there is one. All i have is a Dremel tool. Win. 1873
THANK YOU SIR FOR A GREAT RIDE
Great video, thanks for sharing.
Nice video. You are a good teacher.
Thanks James!
Enjoyed your video, sure looks like it improved a lot, glad the fire didn’t burn up your ranch.
Thanks Jeremy!
Great videos Really enjoy all of them , especially when focusing on old Winchesters. My 20" 86 40-82 wcf loves 25 g of 5744 with 260g Barnes or hard cast flat nose. Accurate and deadly to Whitetail. Thank you !
Thanks so much for the load information! I really like 5744 in these old black powder cartridges.
@@thecinnabar8442
Figured you used that powder before, but love to talk about old Winchesters. Thanks Have a great day !
I was wondering this morning how you were doing. Good to hear everything is alright. Enjoyed seeing the old '86 in action.
All the best from England.
Thank you Gary!
Another Winchester saved ,Great bit of work Mark one nice shooter there Good luck finding a replacement barrel.Cheers
Thank you Cliff!
Would really like to see a video on how you clean your lever guns after shooting black powder. Thanks!
A few people have asked for that. I'll include a short tutorial next time I shoot black powder loads. My process is pretty basic, so don't expect any new revelations.😉
good to see ya back. Really glad the fire turned and didn't hit your ranch hard.
Thanks a bunch!
Super fantastic ! Great gunsmithing. Maybe a barrel lapping , slugging the barrel for proper bullet diameter, and load development could make it a real shooter.
Good work Mark. 40-82's can be stinkers at time to get to shoot well. Bores many times are oversized. They were originally designed for black powder and the "bump" up effect of the black on the lead bullets to shoot well. Get a hold of me and I may be able to give you a few tips to get that old 40-82 grouping better still.
Thanks Mark. I need to find some 40-82 dies and slug the bore. I like the idea of shooting black powder through this old girl. I'm hoping that things will slow down enough someday to get back to doing some casting and load development. Maybe this winter. I'll definitely get in touch when I do.
My thoughts exactly, the problem is by the time you get a bullet large enough to fit the bore and groove diameter the cartridge will no longer fit in the chamber so a soft lead bullet and black powder will bump a under sized bullet up to fit.
I really appreciate seeing these old guns brought back to life.
That right there my friend is a true example of Gods hand of protection!
Glory be to the Lord
He certainly answered a lot of prayers. Still praying for the folks dealing with these horrible fires throughout the West.
@@thecinnabar8442 I stand in agreement with you my friend, and this is done according to the word of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Glad you made it through the fire ok!
Thanks! It's been nice for things to return to normal around here.
Never realized how important the muzzle is for accuracy
Even I was a little surprised at how much this one improved. Thanks for watching
Man I dream of ranch lining like that! At least ranch logging ‘)
I logged and ranched for most of my adult life and thoroughly enjoyed it. I even had a couple of large portable mills here on the ranch for about 15 years. Gunsmithing old guns was pretty appealing as a retirement job, though. Thanks for watching.
My name is jason and I am new to your channel. I love your content and enjoy watching. I’m in Southern Indiana. I am also new to lever guns. I have a Winchester 1894 ae around 1985 model in 3030 it takes excessive pressure on leaver to get the trigger stop to release the hammer. Could the leaver be bent? This gun has been re-barreled and chambered in 44mag still has the same issue any advice you could give me and to remedy this problem would be greatly appreciated.
Hope all is well and your property is out of danger
That’s Awesome Mark Glad all Is Back to Normal on the Cinnabar 😀😊 That ReCrowning Made a Vast Improvement In Accuracy 😲😮😲😀👍🏼 Could Instead of The 45/70 Barrel Use a 50-110 Barrel and Make It a Buffalo Gun And Add a Marbles Tang Sight 😀👍🏼
That'd make a great rifle, alright! We had a beat up old '86 in 50-110 here on the ranch, but it got stolen with a pile of other guns years ago. I'd sure like to find it again.
Stuff me Stubbie mate, I would need a university degree just to turn your lathe on. She's a nice piece a gear mate . Great video mate 👍ps the leaver action rifle has to be the best looking rifle, love them
Thanks Dean! I just got that new lathe and I'm loving my new toy!
@@thecinnabar8442 yep ya gotta pretty cool shed mate I'm enjoying your video's mate. All the best , Great stuff mate 👍
Where did you find 40-82 in stock at? Best friend has one that I might just have to form brass for and reload for him if he can't source some ammo. Great video as always btw!
I would like to know how you tightened up that front site. I have a suspicion but would like to be sure.
Some of those 767's sitting in the desert doing nothing could be converted to water bombers and used to fight fires.
Ya might be able ta put that flyer on the reloader !!
Well done on cleaning up the facing....would a 11* crown also help? Thanks for all the history.
It might, but it wouldn't be accurate for a vintage Winchester. The rifles had a 90 degree muzzle face.
Wow!! What an improvement!!! Great video as always...in God's country!
Thanks Dave!
Very nice job! I really like the 1886, I have one in 50/110, but unfortunately with a round barrel and full length magazine, I thought it odd the your magazine tube projected beyond the muzzle when you were shooting, I had not realised that it was moving forward. When you trued the muzzle how did you support the breach end ? I made up a bush that fits tightly in the headstock tube with 3 set screws that tighten onto the breach outer, that stops it flopping about, I once saw a 1 1/4 dia solid bar turn at 90 degs when the lathe was started, it was running at 2000 RPM though, but there must be a lot of forces in an unbalanced barrel tube. Stay safe ! Chris B.
That was the first barrel work I've done on that new lathe. It came with an outboard "spider" that supports the end of the barrel as it protrudes out the back of the spindle bore. It has four brass tipped bolts, so both ends of the barrel are supported and can be adjusted to center the barrel.
@@thecinnabar8442 That is a good set up! I made mine when I was chambering a 500 Nitro Express barrel, it is an essential jig for long stock, is your 4 jaw chuck a self centering one ? Mine is an independent 4 jaw so takes a bit longer to set up, and did you use a crowning cutter to set back the internal bore? Will you be making new cases from 45/70 brass in future? Chris B.
Mine's an independent 4 jaw. I'd like to try a 6 jaw someday, but have too many others needs ahead of it. I didn't set back the internal bore, just deburred and lightly polished it. As a result of this episode, I've had some viewers offer some 40-82 brass, so I'm hoping to have enough that I won't have to reform any 45-70 brass in the future.
Howdy Mark! Tell us about your lathe. Looks good to me! Stay healthy my friend.
It's a new Grizzly 13x40 gunsmith lathe with a DRO. Great lathe so far, but some of the tooling is kind of cheap. Looking forward to using it more to give it a thorough review.
Howdy, I have a Marlin 1893 that needs some work. Someone cut the magazine back to about half, I assume it was dropped and damaged. Is there a way to communicate with you other than via comments?
Have you thought about Dozing in some firebreaks around your property?
Tightening up that front sight probably helped too.
Do you cut saw cylinders on that spin-a-ma-thang?
Hadn't thought of it, but certainly could be done.
Enjoy your videos, but the background is worth the view..
Just out of curiosity, did you consider putting a recess in the crown ? Or would that be out of character for the model ?
Why not use a laser bore site to check the sights?
How do you make sure the index of the barrel is right?
I note exactly where the extractor is in the extractor notch before I take it apart and return it to that exact position when I tighten the barrel back on.
The power of prayer at work. Glad you and your community are safe! Another great instructional video. Thanks Mark! Wondering why you didn’t re-crown the bore? Also, a while ago I asked a few questions about the cinnabar mine operation, but didn’t get an answer. And now I can’t find which video it was where I asked. Any chance you can locate my questions and provide some information? Thanks!!
Thanks Dogbone! I talked about the mine on the last episode about the single action Colts. I looked back at your comment on that one, but didn't see any questions. Sorry, but I don't remember seeing your questions, do you remember them?
@@thecinnabar8442 If I remember, I was wondering, based on the toxic mercury component of the mineral, are there any concerns of contamination on the ranch? And, are there any active mining operations being conducted currently? Thanks.
Did you contemplate recrowning the bore?
Great question and one I've researched quite a bit. Cinnabar is basically inert because the mercury contained in it is locked up or bound in the crystal, so is not "bioavailable". In fact, it's makes beautiful gems and has been used in jewelry for centuries. Rarely, high grade cinnabar can have free mercury inclusions that can be toxic, but the cinnabar here doesn't. When cinnabar is heated, free (liquid) mercury is released, which can be toxic when handled. If it's heated further, mercury vapor is produced, which is highly toxic to breathe. At least one miner died when using a torch to "sweat out" mercury in a local cinnabar mine. This mine hasn't been worked for mercury since the depression, but was briefly opened in the '60s to look for other associated minerals. I can't say for sure, but I doubt there are any active cinnabar mines in the US today.
With very rare exception, the muzzles on all Winchester lever action rifles of this era had a 90 degree flat profile like the one I cut on this rifle. It wouldn't have had a crown originally, so I didn't consider putting a crown on it.
Please correct me if I missed this but I didn't see you chamfer and polish the rifling inside the muzzle ?
I probably should have explained that. Original '86 barrels didn't have a visible chamfer. Cutting from the inside-out on the lathe leaves the burr on the outside of the barrel where I stoned it off while rounding the corners to match the wear on the rest of the barrel. There was just a slight wire edge left on the inside of the bore that I took off by lightly touching up with a chamfer tool, spinning it between my thumb and forefinger.
@@thecinnabar8442 I've shortened and crowned a few barrels and after giving them a light chamfer, finish off with a brass dome head slotted screw with fine grinding paste in the slot. I find this gives accuracy an edge.
Thanks for the tip. I made a domed brass mandrel on the "Heavy Barreled 1876" series for doing just that. Not sure why I didn't think to use it on this one. Getting absent minded in my old age. 😉
@@thecinnabar8442 We all have our 'senior moments' from time to time ;-) .
Isn't that the rifle and cartridge Tom Horne used?
Seems as tho it was.
Looks like a candidate for Doug Turnbull.
I've seen some terrific work out of Doug's shop, but I've also seen what I thought was some pretty shoddy work as well. He's built a great business, but quality control seems to be an issue. He's gotten big enough that he has a lot of smiths coming and going. Of course, I can do the same work here for a fraction of the cost and have no quality control issues with the one guy in my shop - me.😀
Wait! Isn't that the "Cinnabar Private Shooting Range"? I think it is. Time to debate with CZcams.
Yea, that's right Ben! CZcams hates gun related videos, so I'm pretty sure I wouldn't get very far with them.
Butcher paper or cardboard.
If I had to test something I'd have a target in the middle of a big piece of paper/cardboard to help placing groups.
Hey Mark ,,,cool video... Question ,,, I have an 1873 , 38-40 , just bought it last year ... the barrel "appears" to have been shortened because there is no longer any crown whatsoever and it appears shiny(ish)....however , the barrel extends just past the mag tube as on all others I have seen ..... So , did they make the 73' with longer barrels than this , and/or , could this have been shortened ,,or could it just be the end of the barrel was slightly damaged over time and the crown lost ??
Most early Winchester rifles have a flat 90-degree muzzle with no crown. Typically, only the carbines had a crowned muzzle.
@The Cinnabar Oh !! Ok , that helps a lot , thank you !! Was looking online this evening (winchester forum) , found that it's a 1885 manufacture date (183732B serial). They also gave some dimensions that correlate with my rifle, 24" barrel , and the measurement from the center of the mag band to the end of the barrel (3.75") ,and no extra dovetail under the barrel from a 2nd band ,,,, So , I Believe it hasn't been shortened .!.. 😅.... Thank you for taking the time to respond , and for all you do in the videos ... Good evening ....Dan,,,
If you are not being monetized by CZcams why not put a stub in CZcams directing viewers to another platform to help promote the other platform?
The old timers didn't care as long as usually the first bullet hit within the general area of the animal I've seen people club a deer with a old carbine and rifle and break the wrist on it because they were to cheap to shoot another round and put the animal not down
Haha! I think I would have had to walk up to a deer and stick the muzzle in it's ear to kill one before the muzzle repair. 😀
@@thecinnabar8442 have you ever seen anyone straighten a bent barrel on any guns I've heard that it can be done just wondering what your opinion was
I've not done it myself, but there is an episode of "The Real Gunsmith" on CZcams where Randy straightens a barrel. He's an old-timer gunsmith with a real low tech method that he makes work.
Hello Mark,
As always, another interesting video. Truly amazing how crowning the barrel made such an improvement in accuracy. Being a long-time manual machinist, I would have set my tool bit with less overhang. I know you were taking light .005 cuts, but keeping the advantages in your favor is the name of the game. I could not see the tool bit profile either, but for a real nice finish I would have ground a very slight radius into the tool bit face and with your slow feed, achieved a very nice badminton the last cuts.
On my round barrel 1873 44-40 Winchester rifle, someone cut off the end of the barrel as well and shortened the magazine tube. My thoughts were to machine the barrel end with a step in it, then using a piece of 44-40 barrel I bought machine a cap to press fit on to the end so it would be 24 inches again. Of course, lining up the rifling may be an issue, but it is an idea I had. I think I told you how I repaired original shortened magazine tubes in a similar fashion by joining two shorter pieces of original scrap tubes by boring one piece out by half the thickness and turning the second piece down an equal thickness about 3/4 the of an inch long. Then having a snug, slip fit epoxy or soldering the two pieces together. This joint would be strong and hidden under the forearm. I think it is a better alternative than using a solid reproduction tube.