RetroWave OPL3: The USB AdLib Sound Card
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- čas přidán 12. 07. 2021
- SudoMaker mailed me this neat little device that lets you use a real YMF262 FM sound chip through USB, so let's check it out! Paired with the PotatoPi Lite, there's no need to rely on emulated OPL3 in DOSBox-X anymore if you don't want to.
Here's their storefront: www.tindie.com/stores/sudomaker
Crazy how good dosbox sound emulation really is in comparison
Yeah, props to the people working on this.
When I studied Audio Design, we had this assignment to recreate a 80's synth song (miami vice theme, lol). It's really hard to nail those FM synths that were made on the fly back then.
Found myself preferring it in all the comparisons. Maybe the devs tweaked it to fill in the gaps so to speak, fixing the iffy bits original OPL always did kinda half-assedly. lol
Yea! Emulating adlib has always been tough, but its surprisingly close enough
@@VeraTR909 I mean, an assignment of emulating effing Jan Hammer? The guy behind Don't you know, one of the better produced pieces of synth music ever? That is tough
@@Risingson2 Haha yeah it was a pretty high bar, we were supplied with the (approximate) MIDI but it was great hearing all the groups attempts and reasoning behind their FM software emulations. Some people got kinda close but it was very hard indeed.
That first Jill of the Jungle comparison almost sounds like it’s missing an instrument in emulation.
Yep, there's a particularly snappy snare or cymbal you hear on real FM synth chips with Jill, which is one reason it's a go-to when I do OPL comparisons. Emulation typically gets those sounds _ever so slightly_ wrong.
I think you accidentally just did an episode on how good DOSBox OPL emulation has gotten.
Ha! Yeah that's kinda how it ended up. I was surprised myself.
Plus there are options to use other music cards in Dosbox which sound better, e.g. Waveblaster
That Dosbox 0.74-3 as well based i think on MAME core which is known to be inexact, though that was a decent effort already. If you use a fork such as Dosbox-X or one of numerous others, set the emulation core to "nuked", OPL sampling rate to 49716, you get an emulation with cycle and sample accuracy. Though "nuked" cannot be guaranteed to be bug-free, the validation effort that went into it is quite substantial. It's not enabled by default because it eats CPU.
This device isn't longer available
@@zombee38 but an easier to manufacture successor to it is
The idea of have a tower of stacked sound cards is really cool.
Might need to use with a USB extension cable at that point though, so you relieve some strain on the port
@@adamwhite2364 I was thinking the same thing. Lol. 😂
Yeah... and really high. ;-)
MIDI Mountain: “Finally, a worthy opponent. Our battle will be legendary!”
-Mmmm... Dosbox can't emulate this sound card at 100%.
-Bring the Sound Tower!
Wow, I haven't actually used DosBox OPL emulation for a while, but sounds like it's come a hell of a long way since I last used it! It used to really butcher percussion especially, but in those side-by-sides I'm amazed at how close they sound. The RetroWave definitely does sound better, but I was really surprised at how close the two were!
Right? I hadn't done a side by side in a while myself and I was impressed with how far it's come.
Like Clint mentioned briefly: set oplemu=nuked in DOSBOX-X and it's "almost" as good as the real thing. I cannot really tell the difference with Jill compared to my real SBPRO.
The retrowave is slightly crisper and cleaner, but that emulation is bloody fantastic in its own right, bravo to the coders that made it.
I absolutely love devices like this. As the relentless march of technology continues and old tech gets harder and harder to find, adapting retro tech like this to modern systems is something I'm very excited about.
I'd love to see something like this for more midi devices, like recreations of the MT-32 or later midi modules. I know licensing is an issue with this stuff, but it would be great all the same.
It mostly sounds like the retrowave has more high frequencies and the lower end FM basses are a little smoother compared to the emulation
Definitely, that's my takeaway as well. Nothing massive but it's there if you're looking for it :)
@@LGRBlerbs Sounds fuller, more authentic, more analog-y.
I'd agree with that. But wow emulation is damn fine these days, maybe comparable to an ESFM chip? Better maybe.
Indeed, the emulation is rather good, but not exact.
Very subtle difference, I'm cool with emulation.
So grateful as usual that you used Tyrian as an example. Wish I could've written that soundtrack for AdLib Gold!
I still listen to the soundtrack regularly. Remains one of the best OPL2 tracks.
The fact this works over USB is really cool! For the purity enthusiast, this would be a cool pickup!
I was multitasking while listening. Like a spaniel on point at the sight of a pheasant, I heard the Jill of the Jungle theme and stopped dead.
Loved that game so much.
Having you say that emulation has *improved so much, that YOU have to try and explain the differences, just makes me excited to know the distance gone!! I even heard a difference in the "crap" recording lol but you saying it's not really night and day for most, seriously is awesome to know!!
the RethoWave seems to have a slightly fuller sound, but there's one thing and only one thing that I can say for sure: Torm - The Gathering is one hell of a track
Tyrian has many great tracks.
Tbh DOSbox's OPL2 sounds pretty spot on for the most part. The emulation sounds like it's missing a percussion channel (Jill) and has a distorted instrument (Duke 2), that's the only difference I can notice on CZcams
Yeah, with earbuds and a fan going I can’t tell a difference between any of the direct capture clips except the HW was a tiny bit louder.
AFAIC, other than the slightly wrong percussion in the first example, this is getting to the level of cork-sniffery. Emu is good enough now, and that is a good thing.
My takeaway from listening to the comparisons is that the OPL3 chip has just a fraction more attack in the sawtooth waveform, which results in a brighter, punchier note. Like adding a splash of lemon juice to a sauce. It doesn't literally change the tone, but it adds a bit more resonance to the sound.
It's particularly noticeable in the higher octave notes where it takes on a more brash, aggressive sound, like when you strike a piano key with a lot of force to make the note pop.
Perfect timing! I just made some breakfast and tea. Thank you for making a excellent start to my day.
Finally no more emulation! The community around this little chip is awesome.
The RetroWave OPL3 seems to be less muted, especially in the higher frequencies. It really sounds better than emulation, even through all of CZcams's lossy compression.
256kbit AAC is really quite good though, I have some doubts that you honestly notice that compared to say CD quality if doing a blind a/b test.
I agree, Retrowave OPL3 does deliver more crisps and had a little bit of dimension to the sound. but again, the DosBox emulation is quite good as well!
There's some noticeable difference in cymbals in favour of the real thing. Almost feels like CQM vs OPL. Could be the result of internal DosBox OPL resampling. Also it's not just any OPL3 chip, but the one without 1Hz difference "problem".
So... what does that mean? Never heard of that 1Hz problem. Should we buy it or not?
@@Roobar_Plays You are unlikely to notice 1Hz "problem" itself. But you may notice resampling artifacts with certain OPL3 chips and sound cards that have 1Hz problem. For more info google "OPL2/3 Frequency - The 1Hz-ish Difference". In short: the device in the video should be as good as it gets for OPL3 sound. If you're a DosBox gamer and you need 100% authentic and proper OPL3 audio, then buy it.
That difference is even between different versions of the actual OPL3 too, so at this point you can have OPL3 emulation that's closer to the original OPL3 than its later revisions, just due to the original sampling rate being used :]
Other than that, it's common to manually edit DOSBox's OPL sampling rate to 49716 to match the sampling rate of the original chip. If left at 44100, there will obviously be some slight differences too
That little extra this adds tickles my nostalgia in all the right places. Thanks for the heads-up! I've added my name to the now no-doubt extensive waitlist.
Very cool little device. I would love to see an AWE32 version of this with real EMU8K hardware.
honestly, emulation sounds fine to me.
at least through the youtube compressed audio stream
Heh, yeah CZcams compression certainly doesn't help the comparison
Speakers matter, too. On the direct capture, I could hear the difference better on my headphones than my speakers. On the other hand, they _are_ the same beige-box speakers I used with an actual Sound Blaster in the 90s. (US Logic brand, made for Tandy and Computer City)
OPL always sounds like garbage. But it’s nostalgic garbage.
I found it a clearer difference on the recording of the speaker playback than the direct recording :)
Yeah, me too, it would have been good to have a direct line recording of that particular tune to make proper comparisons.
Looks neat. I think it would be the best way to enjoy authentic OPL3 sound with a modern computer.
Love the keyboard, Clint!
This is seriously awesome! As much as I love and grew up on the original hardware, I know the parts won't last forever. While emulation has become a very competent alternative, having some hardware in the equation just pushes it so close to the real thing. There's the ao486 core for MiSTer working to reproduce a 486 machine in FPGA and now there's this USB OPL3 sound card. Love it!
Oh this is awesome! Ever since I saw the OPL2LPT and similar little boards, I was dreaming of having one with USB for modern PCs
I've been waiting for this tech for 25 years.
The difference to me is akin to the "old vs new" comparison of C64 SID chips. They're certainly different, and although those differences are subtle, people have strong preferences one way or another. The fact that this is a real OPL chip is cool indeed, but what's ice-cold is that we now have more choice!
The fact that this is a self-contained device is probably the most interesting thing about it. I mean, instead of buying an AWE64 and messing with the effects to make the FM sound thicc, I can just slap a whole chain of guitar pedals on the output and shape the sound however I want! That's very very attractive to me. (and to you as well Clint, given your ever growing synth setup). Thanks for dropping this blerb, this is going straight onto the wishlist! Much appreciated!
Holy crap, I want one!
The OPL emulation does sound quite close and very nice, I think the Retrowave just has cleaner seperation between channels & a more robust sound. Killer little product, cant wait to see the mega drive style project.
Richer and fuller sound on the OPL chip. Definitely can hear the difference.
Hey LGR, thanks for making me aware of DOSBox-X.
Emulation has grown quite a bit (and I wouldn't kick it out of my bed). Though I can't deny, even if it is subtle on some... the retrowave hits my memoryfoam more accurate.
Great product, especially if they go ahead with more modules.
I've signed up to the waitlist, looks neat! ^_^
I'm lucky enough to have the YMF740 integrated into my best Slot 1 motherboard. My old Riva 128ZX paired with SLI Voodoo2 and a Pentium III 650 makes it an excellent DOS machine.
Its slight but this is a neat improvement and makes emulating these games just that bit more genuine feeling.
Mine showed up today! (The express revision)Looking forward to trying it after work.
AdLib was my first soundcard in 1995. Had to import it myself.
Definitely a novelty thing, considering the emulated OPL3 doesn't sound terrible in my opinion, but a welcome one, especially being USB, for people like me who dont really have the space in their house to build a retro PC just for the sound card
That jukebox at the end was pretty cool.
What a coincidence! I was just looking at that a few days ago.
I need this yesterday!
Thanks to this vid, I discovered Dosbox x! I did not know about this... Thanks :)
Yes! This is exactly what I need! If only it were in stock...
Great video! Interesting comparison. Here are my observations:
Jill:
DOSBox OPL emulation:
Bass drum has slightly more oompf, the snare drum sounds more metallic and is more resonant rather than based on noise.
Retrowave OPL3:
Bass drum is mixed lower or has less energy in the bass register, the snare has slightly more noise to it, less resonant, longer decay.
Keen:
Hard to tell because the tune is different so there is no way to do an A/B comparison.
Apogee intro:
Surprisingly similar. Typically I find that patches with a lot of feedback tend to show more differences when comparing hardware to emulation but this sounded spot on.
Duke 2:
DOSBox OPL Emulation:
The bass is bassy and clean.
The ride cymbal in the second segment (about 11:01) has noisy overtones but a different set of them compared to the Retrowave.
Retrowave OPL3:
More overtones in the bass, not as clean. And this is exactly what you would expect from an old FM synth. That's why people still buy old Yamaha DX7s - because of the dirt and the grime in the bass sounds. Emulation sounds too clean here.
The ride cymbal in the second segment (about 10:57) has noisy overtones but a different set of them compared to the emulation.
Jukebox:
DOSBox OPL Emulation:
Lots of bass, very clean.
The kick drum has more bass.
Retrowave OPL3:
Not as much bass in the bass line, more overtones.
The kick is more punchy but less bassy. Or it could simply be that the transient from the attack stands out more when there is no real bass response, so it might be that both emulation and the Retrowave OPL3 has equal punchyness. Either way, the bass response in the Retrowave is much less pronounced and has more overtones.
Overall:
It should be noted that the result depends a lot on what kind of digital-to-analog converter they're using in the Retrowave. I'm assuming that DOSBox does not emulate the effects of crappy DACs and amplifiers on old sound cards. The Yamaha DX7 mk1 from 1983 had legendary 12-bit DACs that introduced quite a lot of noise and overtones especially in the low-end which made the sound real grimy compared to the DX7 mk2 that came out a few years later, which had 16-bit DACs. Stuff like that has nothing to do with the sound chip itself and more to do with the circuitry downstream from the sound chip. Either way, the differences here are quite subtle overall but there are certainly differences here and there - especially in the bass response vs. the overtones generated by bass sounds.
If there is one thing that I realized it is that the DOSBox OPL emulation is surprisingly good ;D. Maybe that's the wrong take-away here but that that's what I feel ;).
That is a very cool device.
Great video!!!
The real opl3 just sounds a smidgen more crisp. The sounds are blended. So something like a fast drum beat has more distinct hits. A slide, on the other hand, from one note to another is better on the emulation. And I think that's the problem, the emulation is trying to do that to everything. But its so subtle.
Really funny part is that I've never owned a real adlib card, so the emulation sounds more like I remember it. sounding.
I do agree that emulator has come along way. The actual sounds chip sounds just a touch cleaner and louder. But the emulator was also doing a fantastic job 👏
This is awesome and all but I noticed this on their page, and as a musician, I'm suddenly very very excited...
'A VST3 plugin/software MIDI port driver for interfacing with DAW software is planned'
Honestly this is a testament to the improvements in Dosbox, its REALLY good now. I don't remember it being that good
Yeah I can definitely tell a difference it seems like the hardware has a bit more richness to the overall sound, highs and lows are clearer but man Dosbox is sooooo close to that sound it really has come a long way in that regard.
There is definitely a difference. I can tell a huge difference for the better.
I am a sucker for adlib and soundblaster sound. If it's not too much, I am definitely getting it.
Utter genius!
Gotta admit, that difference is extremely subtle. If I were to describe it to someone else how I experience the difference I'd say the higher frequencies are clearer and it's almost as if it's got more voices on the lower end.
Sounds to my old ears that the retrowave has more presence and the instruments don't get muddied together like emulation. It is subtle... but perhaps less so for "newer" ears.
Could you maybe do a video about the differences between Dosbox and Dosbox-X, and maybe the other emulators such as PCem?
DOS box and the like are much less low-level as it's more of a sandbox than an emulator.
A guide to all the different forks of DOSBOX and what each variant is particularly good for would be a good thing. To someone who doesn't follow the scene closely it is a bewildering array.
@@jameslewis2635 The amount of DOSBOX forks is getting ridiculous honestly.
Ancient Dos Games has a comparison of dosbox and dosbox-x that is quite good if you are looking for that
@@talideon DOSBox-X tho? great DOS emulation. you can even replace command.com!
Great comparison. I love these little hardware sound modules. What was the jukebox/visualizer program playing in the last segment of the comparisons?
Tyrian's setup program :)
Make it a very great USB retro MIDI FM Device man, this is very cool product.
This is cool. I wish there was a USB soundblaster live, for EAX :D
The sudomaker sounds more accurate to me. Even the first time you played it, it was noticeable. I'm not sure how noticeable it would be to someone who didn't spend a better part of a decade listening to game music generated via an opl3. The nostalgia part of my brain goes "yes, this is right!" when I here the sudomaker. The only thing that could make it better is playing through a pair of crappy cheap 90s era speakers .
Exactly this. If your ear is trained in the OPL arts, there is an immediate difference, however subtle
Oh I want one so badly!
This is an awesome idea, please please please someone make an UltraSound chip for this too! As far as the difference, the RetroWave is definitely a crisper sound but as you say the emulation has gotten amazing the last few years.
Haha.. that’s a pipe dream I think. :-) Unless somebody has a stash of Interwave ICs just hanging around.
On the bright side, wavetable is trivial in software now. Not like in the 90s when it was too much for a poor 33MHz CPU to handle.
Honestly, as someone who doesn't really like OPL2/3 sound anyway, emulation sounds good enough. I mean, I can hear a little bit of difference here and there, but nothing dramatic. To me it's still "the second worst music option for DOS games" either way (the worst being PC Speaker or no music at all). Now, when it comes to MT-32 or Sound Canvas, now we are talking... It's the real deal.
Wow, this deserves a proper true ISA Sound Blaster Opl3 vs Retrowave
RetroWave sounds more dynamic with crispy highs and fat lows. Listening through studio monitor for reference
That Tyrian jukebox... They don't make games like that anymore - with free (extra) games *and a frigging jukebox*.
Is that what that last song was?
Commander Keen 4 sounds about the same to me, and both sound the way I remember it from years back on a SB card.
Amazing seeing a vintage full size oscillator on a USB widget.
Even just listening on my cell phone, the difference is night and day to me. The opl emulation sound decent but the retro wave have distinct separation between the elements. Each sound effect and instrument is very distinct and clear whereas with the emulation is more muddled together a little bit.
The OPL3 is likely easier to emulate in software than some other older sound chips since it is an FM design, which is mostly a digital circuit. Some other chips from the era had more analog circuitry such as filters, which is harder to get right. Software synthesizers that emulate other dedicated FM synths such as the Yamaha DX series often sound very accurate, whereas analog emulations such as a Minimoog have only recently gotten to the point of being close to a 100% match in terms of sound. There are a lot of complex interactions between the analog components.
It's completely digital. It's only the YAC512 DAC where it's turned into an analog signal, the YMF262 feeds it floating point data :]
better a sound than nothing at al.if you have a old laptop with USB connection.thus a good solution.thank,s for testing this USB AdLib Sound Cart.
I notice the OPL3 has more body. The sound just sounds fuller.
Honestly in lieu of an actual DOS computer DOSbox-X and this feels like a worthy option.
It sounds to me like the difference is in sampling frequency. There were a couple instances where the RetroWave had perhaps a hint of reverb that was lacking in the DOSbox OPL.
very cool. someday we'll see these in traditional usb dongles. probably still always be fairly pricey because of the hobby being niche. i'm also very particular about my twang... and having things dangling around.
FINALLY! A HARDWARE SYNTH COMPATIBLE WITH NEWER PCs!!
Both the RetroWave and the emulation sound so incredibly clean and noise-free compared to a real SB... it's hard to believe one of them is not emulated!
Seriously though. Sound Blasters are great for a number of things, but low noise level certainly isn't one of them!
The way the percussion is mixed and the flanging effect on certain synths sounds better on the OPL3.
I'm just noticing that it feels like the RetroWave OPL3 sounds much clearer and less muffled than its emulated counterpart. You're right Clint, it's pretty hard to notice.
Ah, that's the sound I've been craving for decades! Maybe I'm a weird audiophile, but the emulation doesn't even come close!
I mostly like the idea of other sound chips from other systems. Perhaps if they would be possible to use in a musical manner as well?
I hear a marked difference between the dosbox emulation and the retrowave in the bass and mid tone , the instruments are a lot clearer and the sound is richer and more full on the retrowave unit. I listened to it on studio monitors , nice flat response speakers , just what I am hearing maybe , but it is noticeable
On Jill of the Jungle, the OPL3 picks up the snare (or tapping on the side with the stick) and enhanced bass drum.
Dangit, now I want one. :D
Nifty!
I'm getting one as soon as that VST support gets added for music composition purposes.
Overall, the RetroWave just sounds... fuller? Like it has more presence? My ears are pretty shot, but the RetroWave just sounds richer somehow. And, I love how cheap, tiny computers like the Raspberry Pi etc. have made so many cool and interesting products like this possible, or at least, more affordable and approachable for people to develop!
Neat! Wonder if it works (or will work one day) with the adlib tracker II. Would be a great step in making Chiptune / OPL music more accessible 😄
Yes it definetly works! Check out our demo videos on our channel!
I can definitely hear the difference. With my lower-end JBLTune Bluetooth earbuds, the emulation OPL3 sounds very slightly compressed and with some FM distortion, as if the entire audio band was clipped at the peaks and low end. The hardware OPL chip sounds like it has a wider aural profile and a broader range with less clipping. This is with these admittedly lower end earbuds,
Bluetooth compression and of course CZcams stepping on the audio with their own “lossless” compression… in real life with some decent speakers I bet I could clearly hear the difference. Not that I’m claiming superior auditory skills to Clint, just noting my personal impression.
@@rockapartie it was a joke, I put that in quotes for a reason. At any sub level CZcams audio is s h i t e
Looks like it uses a Burr-Brown op amp for the output, which are very good quality. It's also using a Yamaha DAC to match the OPL3 chip, so no problems there. But if you _really_ want to replicate the sound of an AdLib or Sound Blaster, you'd really have to replicate the analogue output circuitry on those cards.
I just checked TubeTime's AdLib schematic, and there's quite a bit more to the output than just an op amp. For some reason the signal from the DAC goes through a buffer, then through two gain stage op amps, some filtering, a transistor pulling the signal through a resistor, with the signal tapped off after the resistor, then some more filtering before the volume knob, and then it goes to the output op amp, which has some more filtering before it goes to the output. Not to mention the output op amp is a boring old LM386, so not exactly a low-noise unit like the Burr-Brown one used on the RetroWave.
I'm no expert on analogue electronics, and they haven't released the schematics, but looking at the pics on their wobsite, it's missing the LM386 output op amp, and there's a suspiciously small number of passives on the board to replicate the different filter stages.
Sure, it might sound a little different from the emulator, but it's likely going to sound different from the original hardware too. And really, how good is your memory of the music or sound effects if you haven't played on the real hardware in years or decades?
I mean, personally I distinctly remember hearing the difference in AdLib music moving from a Pro AudioSpectrum 16 to a Sound Blaster 16, and to this day I can watch people playing games on original Sound Blasters and tell it doesn't sound "right". So yeah, maybe there's a reason why I collect original hardware.
I guess I'm not missing out on _too_ much with DOSBox. That's good to know. Though, DOSBox is really good on emulating that hanging note bug with Daggerfall shop music.
I don't know about anyone else. but I like your blerbs channel more than your main channel. I guess I just like the odd things.
I would say the real value of a card like this is for Pentium II and III laptops that don't have OPL sound. If you want to play on real hardware, this sounds like a good option so you can get something a bit faster and more portable than a 486 desktop without compromising on sound for DOS games.
Aw man, I gotta get one of these. Wonder if it’ll work with my Raspberry Pi.
Its designed for the Raspberry pi - the bottom board in the video is just for if you want to connect it to USB instead
I think they're designed to mount to the pi's GPIO pins on top
@@TheMetalIsNeon Yeah, it does say it's RasPi compatible.
@@TheMetalIsNeon oh nice.
To me it sounds like the DOSBox OPL Emulation sounds better in when it comes to low frequencies as the Retrowave doesnt sound like it goes as low, but the highs are slightly brighter in the Retrowave. You will need headphones or speakers that output low bass frequencies to hear the lows difference better.
I was more impressed with how well the emulation sounded. I don't remember it sounding that good.
I would love to see a product like this that adds EAX capabilities through hardware on more modern machines.