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5 Reasons Covert Narcissists Are Missed or Misdiagnosed
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- čas přidán 13. 08. 2024
- In this video, I explain 5 reasons that even trained mental health professionals can be fooled by the covert narcissist and why therapy doesn't work for NPD.
If this video resonates with you, please like, share, and subscribe so that others might find help in it as well! I would so greatly appreciate it. 💜
It's my intention that everyone who watches gets at least one important take-away. 🙏
/ @liseleblanc
About Me
Hi! I'm Lise Leblanc. I am a therapist, life coach, and author of 9 self-healing guides. I have over 20 years of experience in therapeutic, educational, and leadership roles.
For information about private consultations, please visit: liseleblanc.ca/products/coaching
Introduction (0:00)
Types of Narcissists (0:44)
1: Put on a Show (4:46)
2: Diagnostic Criteria (5:44)
3: Comorbidity (6:17)
4: Personality Disorders (6:58)
5: Manipulation (8:14)
Why Narcissists Rarely Benefit From Therapy (10:21)
#narcissist, #NPD, #narcissisticpersonalitydisorder, #covertnarcissism, #femalenarcissist
As someone who is autistic, I have been a covert narcissist magnet over the years. Probably, because I don't spot all the game playing and manipulation until it's too late.
Bingo. Dad is autistic ADHD like me. Mother covert narc. She ruined him and me.
Same here.
🤟
I think they pick up on autists and target them.
Same 😞
The sooner people stop trying to label or diagnose their partners and just focus on the behaviors the better everyone will be. You don't need to give them a label to know they are toxic as f*** and treat you like shit all day everyday
Bingo
Amen 🙏
🔥
THIS.
So true!
I am recovering from a relationship with a covert narcissist, and watching your videos feels like you're actually speaking about her. It is uncanny.
Sameeeeeeeeee , my ex has been doing therapy for 8 years 2x a week and she still told me she loved me on the 4th date smh
Same here. All that was missing was Lisa not using my ex-es name...
Same! It’s seems a spirit that manifest into many people. BPD and NRC seem similar in how they manifest in the individual.
Same here brother. Mine was an absolute smoke show. Pure as the driven snow from the outside. It took me 6 years to figure it out and I was looking hard the whole time.
Same here! It's frustrating
Absolutely correct. I get so tired of people who assume the nice, quiet, passive, non threatening partner can't possibly be the problem. Yet they don't dig deep enough to discover the covert is putting on a good front. Meanwhile in private they are exploiting situations or circumstances at home that permit them opportunities of revenge against the partner. Or that they intentionally play mind games, pretending not to understand, are emotionally distant, behave as spoiled toddlers, refuse to engage with the family, don't or can't communicate, expect the partner to mind read, hate when they are no longer the partners focus of attention, and twist what the partner and therapist are saying g to them.
Like Tom Schwartz. If ya know ya know.
THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gotta say even some who know about classic narcissism still don't understand that the covert is an entirely different 2 headed monster. Lots of new CZcamsrs giving advice about "covert" narcissism, but in reality they are still talking about the classic narcissist by trait and not true covert. Only those who have years of experience with the covert narcissist can tell you how cloaked and dangerous they can be.
Sounds familiar!
After several sessions with my wife I was beginning to think the therapist was buying my wife's sob story. Now I realize it was painfully obvious. I'd speak for 2 minutes, then she would blame and excuse for 15 minutes lol. I had zero response and didn't even try to defend myself. In a solo session I asked the our therapist how my wife could be so selfish, yet giving. She pointed me to NPD, and now the last 20 years finally make sense.
A lot of people who were convinced by the abusive person in their relationship that they were the abusive one are watching this now saying “I knew it! They were right!”
😂😂 the manipulation is real. Sometimes you just want someone to tell you that your reality is real, and sometimes that's all it takes for you to feel great.
My ex did this to me. I found myself having great relationships with everybody else except her.
I think even the vulnerable narcissists know who they are. Ask yourself a few questions, mainly this one : Do they know WHEN and WHERE to turn ON and OFF their manipulative games? If the answer is yes , and it always is , they know. They know
💯
Bingo!
Many narcs start abusing in a car or in a closed-off space. They have enough insight to know this kind of behavior is wrong, but don’t have enough regulation, mindfulness, or empathy to stop themselves.
I think they are a contradiction in terms: they know, but they don’t know. Yes, they are crazy
This was so good Lise. Really spot on. As a therapist, let me just say, the only thing I have found over the years that drives a covert, vulnerable, or grandiose narcissist into treatment is definitely anxiety, depression, and/or substance abuse. Having BPD symptoms simply exacerbates the minefield. They so lack the ability to self-reflect to gain insight for change because they have NO empathy. And empathy, IMO is an essential element, if you're going to get anywhere in therapy. With these clients everything and I mean everything is someone else's fault, and regardless of how many relationships they have been in and out of, despite multiple failures, they believe they contributed immeasurable benefits to their past partners and were taken advantage of by them.
I was completely different from everyone else, until I was some how completely same and worse, while improving myself.
That last part. I fucking hate that last part. I was with her cause"of what she does for me" in which I asked what in the hell do you do for me besides stress me out?! Man I tell ya...
I’m also a therapist and I agree with you completely they always come out of every relationship feeling used and complain to the next supply about it when in reality they behave in such ways that they’re going to be discarded. I myself got involved briefly with a narcissist and spotted the red flags I moved the relationship at a snails pace not his pace. When he started to drop the mask I dumped him he was speaking to his ex-girlfriend so I had a great way to get out he wasn’t that good at the love bombing and the seggs was terrible which I would not have until 20 dates in. But it was an experience.
Please don't give up on us completely. There is so little help or acceptance for NPD clients, and I understand that. We must be the most obstinate, reticent, and straight up frustrating clients possible. But wouldn't the world be better if we could be brought out of our razor-spiked armor? We're in there because we hurt so deeply inside. Perhaps this is an opportunity to find new approaches to an intractable diagnosis? But until then, if we come to you fully admitting NPD please don't reject us, we're ready for you.
Totally. They never see they're the common denominator in their misery.
"they are in therapy for proof that their partner is the problem" wow this happened to me. It was really bizarre because the therapy never felt collaborative. It felt competitive and i couldn't figure out why. Thanks for the clarity
Your videos freed me from a covert narcissist. Thank you
I think this misses the real reasons people with all kinds of disorders go unnoticed:
1. The therapist is not the intimate partner, and therefore does not experience the constant manipulation, because there isn’t as much to be gained by manipulating your therapist. As you said, all patients put on their best face for their therapist, no matter what the condition.
2. Unlike the intimate partner, the therapist sees the person for maybe an hour every two weeks. They can never really get to know their patient Like an intimate partner.
3. There is no mechanism for talking to those around the patient. A good therapist could’ve asked me five questions, and realized that I was the victim of a covert narcissist within two minutes.
4. There’s a complete lack of intake forms. We walk into the therapists office and they say, “what do you want to talk about today?” And then they are flying blind. There is little chance of them getting to the bottom any time soon. Then, because there is no discovery, the real issues are never addressed. A 200-300 question intake form might at least indicate areas for the therapist to watch for. I’ve dealt with several, yet only once been asked any history.
Thanks again. You saved me.
"Years of your life can be wasted as you slowly come to the realization that the narcissist probably won't change." Yep. I was with someone for 5 years -- took me about a year and a half to discover that she probably had borderline personality disorder (I happened on a book whose title was almost verbatim something this girl would say to me after a fight, "I hate you, don't leave me." ) For the next year after that book, I was engaged in trying to confirm or disconfirm the information in that book by reading other books on the subject. I continued with her because I thought maybe I could help her and I felt guilty about the idea of abandoning her. And there were some good moments in the relationship, and things about her that made my heart bleed for her, she could be so childlike, and I'd worry about her and feel sorry for her, because I felt that her existence was in a way incredibly sad, because she seemed incapable of a healthy, real, connection with another person. Gradually, I learned it was quite possible for a person to combine BPD and NPD, which clarified even more the behaviors of the female I was with. Only about 4 years into the relationship did I finally became clear, through experience but also by consulting with an expert on BPD and NPD, that she would almost certainly never change and there was nothing I could do to help. I had to start extracting myself out of it by then, because after 4 years, it was really starting to wear on my soul, the frequent boundary violations, the rigidity, the refusal of all criticism, combined with bizarrely extreme demonization of me if I ever criticized her, as well as violence from her (sticking her nails into my hands till I bled, punching me in the face, kicking me in a way that gave me a limp for a couple of weeks. It was partly my own tendency to feel guilty that kept me so long in that relationship, until I felt it really starting to destroy me. Without the sense of guilt about the idea of abandoning her (a guilt that in my case no doubt points to something that needs work in my own character), common sense would have caused me to leave her after a few months, not after 5 years. Anyway, about 5 more years have elapsed since I got away from her, and I still feel the effects. I wonder if the way I feel is sort of like how some people who have been raped feel. Though in my case being raped was not physical, but subtle, psychological, and long term. Well, next time I start a relationship, I'll only do so when I know the person well enough to know there is no personality disorder there. And if one knows the signs of the disorder, it's not hard to spot pretty quickly. I think Lise Leblanc is one of the very best expositors of the condition. Perhaps the best I'm aware of. What she says corresponds to a tee to my own experience.
Aside from the physical violence - she did hit me a couple times over the years - the last eight years of my marriage are very similar to as you described. I didn't seek out expert advice. I figured it out on my own. BUT IT TOOK A WHILE TO FIGURE IT OUT. It got progressively worse over time. I'm also a new fan of Lise LeBlanc. She knows her stuff.
Good comment and reference point for others. I wouldn't say it's similar to rape, where that victim is literally in a life or death scenario, but if you are in an insecure, emotionally volatile relationship for long enough, it can still be traumatic and make you revert to your more maladaptive coping styles to manage it. Worth considering doing your own therapy to work through recalibrating your feelings and exploring them in a safe, secure space
All of what you have said resonates with me. My relationship was over 20 years, with the last 10 years becoming really bad. Last year I was in a desperate state and I decided to seek professional help. This was the best investment I have ever made in myself. I left my partner in September last year and I have started the long road to rebuilding my life. My self-confidence and self-esteem are still low, but getting better. It's a journey now to a better place. I am 66, and through therapy and talking openly with trusted family and friends, I have hope for a good life in the time I have left. Thank you Lise for your videos, they help to give me strength and belief GB
every word of yours matched with my story brother ..Each and every line ...5 years ..A life of hell and I am nowhere and nobody but I have gathered myself and started again ..Thank you for sharing your story ..Love from India
Years have been wasted! Numerous times! Your tale of woe is a carbon copy of mine. Thanks for sharing, it really helps for the cold hard feelings,I need , to get away from them. ...
Very good! They often talk about a paranoia, which makes ppl think they have borderline or fearful-avoidance.
This also makes therapist think they are self-aware. But the narcissist incessantly talks about depression to get supply. He doesn't know this about himself.
Amazing is that they can emulate a codependent and convince even a therapist (including me).
Spot on! My ex-wife would demand therapy... then leave every time she was not validated. Even after the divorce, she would go through a therapist monthly...until she quit all together. Everything had to be my fault or she would leave and refuse to go back.
Hey, I am actually living through this right now!!! We are on our 9th month of separation and working on things in the divorce. I feel better as time goes on but I still get triggered when she says things that are insanely untrue. Do you have any advice? And please tell me this gets better with time. Cause some of this makes my head hurt lol
@@robertwerner683 "working on things"? No. Just do not! Got to learn to disengage. Are you codependent? Work on yourself. Even when I co-parent, I have learned to engage as little as possible. Only respond to direct questions that need answering to get the divorce done. You have top break the tie completely... if codependent, then the need to please also. Super hard as this can be a systematic problem. Good Luck!
@@GregBardwell that's pretty sage advice. I concur completely. I'm coming to terms with my codependency issues. I'm also too forgiving and sympathetic. But you cannot hope to change them or even coexist and still live your own life. I've been banging my head against the wall for so long I'm losing myself.
@@jimig399 Loss of self...yes. So hard to see from a codependent vantage point! But exactly what happens.
😂 that's funny and it's so true. They cannot be good people so they must always appear to be a good person in the eyes of onlookers. It's also what makes them stand out in stark contrast against a truly authentic person.
Good stuff here, tread carefully people, especially qualified therapists. You are not infallible.
In 2016 I had a friend BEG me to listen to her and NEVER go back to my Covert Narcissistic husband. She knew I would just get hurt yet again. What a fool I have been.
Five years wasted with my covert narcissist wife. I've been there. We went back because we want to believe this time, they got it, they really have changed, we got through to them, they see the light... you're not a fool, just hopeful. But the reality is they'll never change & we have to break away.
You’re not a fool. It’s okay. Forgive yourself. And move forward stronger.
We're not fools...we just give people too many chances.
Mine wasn't able to recognize it at the time. I ended up getting the blame and also had both of them gang up on me. Two females against one "horrible" male...needless to say was the last time I went back!!!
Old best friend & wife extreme NPD’s. Double ended. Totally ruined my life, have flying monkeys. In the rebuild phase with a personal therapist. Can’t tell you how nice it is to hear this. It’s like fresh air from gaslighting, manipulation, adoration, Hoover, discredit & discard. Feeling like why me? Always wanted to help people, be forgiving & relaxed. Now know these types are parasitic to us. Now I’ve woken up. They are going hard to smear. What a strange world
Yes, this! My ex does not take therapy seriously. She goes to play the victim & never does any of the assignment the therapist gives her.
I've received a second final discard by a female covert narcissist (twice, by the same person), a year after the initial final discard. I genuinely loved her, even after I found out all about her, I still loved her. I anticipated it coming, but I still felt a dull sorrow, a grievous feeling, a sense of loss. But it don't imagine she'll give me another hoover. I wished her well and all that's good in life, briefly said my piece (after I took the time to centered myself, after my initial angst) and I'm ready for the rest of my life (however, short, or long, I have left).
When you say "genuinely love her" think about what that even means
Attraction, infatuation attachment
Genuinely attracted to her. Genuinely infatuated with her
Genuinely attached to her.
Genuinely obsessed with her
Genuinely love her... What does really mean?
What does "genuinely loving somebody actually mean?
We know what it FEELS like to feel genuinely loved by somebody based on their actions toward us though what does it mean to "genuinely love her "
When the covert narc is being an asshat and in response you choose loving actions toward her instead of reactionary actions to her actual behavior which can make you want to pick her up and throw her out the nearest window but instead go get her fav Starbucks and/or fav flowers to see her smile again... Actions of love being chosen instead of actions based on your true emotion's felt due to her actions toward you.
Loving actions toward a covert narcissist female being belligerent can just as well be described as codependency actions of codependency. In a relationship with a covert female narcissist after idealization after devaluation when you see behind their mask the eggshells walking begins and intermittent reinforcement cycle begins starts we ourselves are unable to be genuinely us and end up wearing a mask ourselves around the covert narcissist female and then we are no longer genuine either. Who do we miss? That person we thought they were initially that person idealizing us and lovebombing us. That's the person we actually became infatuated with and attached to and declared "love" to. Not the person behind behind the sweetheart mask. They get us hooked in the beginning like freely giving us a drug that only they have and we become addicted to it then one day they take it away then give it sparely to keep you hooked but not fulfilled.
Genuinely loving the covert narcissist isn't even possible because none of us actually have affection for the monster behind the mask and they themselves know that and it just pisses them off more. The covert female narcissist doesn't stab you with a butcher knife that others could see, they instead stab you 1,000 times per day with toothpicks dipped in tiny amounts of poison slowing killing you in a way nobody knows about but you behind closed doors
I married mine during lovebombing and had no clue what was to come. I too read the borderline personality disorder books that tended to explain Everything other than the extra fake nice personality put on for the public that could go on and off as fast as an elevator door opening/closing.
The stories of EVERYbody in her past doing her wrong being abusive leaving you initially wondering how could people treat such a sweet girl so poorly only later realizing the truth once you become the next person added to the list of so called abusive people in her past
What does genuinely love her actually mean?
Who did you actually genuinely love?
A year later, but what the above person said is accurate. You didn't love her. The real her was the sick version of her, the abusive her. The "her" that you loved was an act... it was a charade, a ghost, a dream. It wasn't real.
I always loved the part of "Dr. Jennifer Melfi" in The Soprano's. With all her good intent she was actually making psychopath "Tony" better at his job as a maffia-boss.
(edited) _As you had said there are two subtypes of narcissists the overt and the covert. But it appears to me that they can act as if they are on a sliding scale between the overt and covert. For it seems (even at times) the overt narcissist may behave in a covert mode (think of the love bombing stages). And the covert at times will present that grandiose persona. But in general their behavior is more toward one end or the other. I think the narcissist (especially the cover) tend to be very good multitaskers. For the better they are at mulitasking the more targets they can be taking advantage of, and using at the same time._
I have quite some reasons to assume I am a narcissist myself, most likely a covert one.
It got a bit better since I realized it and tried to behave less like this. "Whatever I'm aware of in myself has less control over me than whatever I'm not aware of in myself".
That being said, it still far from good.
Finally getting into therapy to work on it.
Don't expect easy and fast results, totally expecting the same struggle as fighting an addiction.
If you have this issue and are still so aware, good on you. I hope you find happiness.
I wish you good healing!
I went to therapy thinking I was an empath. I came out thinking I’m a covert narc 😂 Or through so much giving, I just don’t give any empathy out easily.
Great work Sir. 👊🏽
It’s rare bravery from a narcissist to seek help. I wish you the best but hope you don’t ruin anyone else’s life along the way
I wish all the best for you.
When I left my ex who was a covert narcissist, as I was walking out the door he had a HUGE grin on his face and said to me "boy if my therapist knew I was in a relationship with you he wouldn't be happy". I was shocked, I had no idea he was seeing a therapist and that his therapist advised him to stay single for a good while. So he was lying to me and this therapist. Yikes , we were living together too!
I went to counseling with a covert narcissist. It was the only time she seemed to be interested in listening. Also, she would cry. Which would always surprise me, because she never cried or seemed interested in listening to me. Never tears while crying, only an act or a show for the counselor. It's sad that they can not accept accountability for their actions. It's absolutley exhausting sharing a life with these type of individuals. Also, my counselor could not see it. She played the victim role, which is so sad, because I'm a nice guy. They maintain their control through chaos and confusion.
Yes, they have all that underlying shame, insecurities, and anger and have built up all these toxic defensive mechanisms and manipulation tactics to cope. They always have to project, deflect, gaslight, lie, and place blame and judgment on others. They will not accept accountability, and put it back on their victims/targets. Always something "wrong" with somebody else. Victim-bully complex.
Oh yes, my ex thought he was truly clever, blaming his (claimed) ‘one affair’ (which he had been caught in) on me - in the therapists office for 10 long months. He had the therapist wondering which of our stories were true, because they were so vastly different. And then proof of his serial cheating literally landed in my lap (social media is a beautiful tattle tale of the truth) and the therapist then knew that he had been gaslighted by the narcissist the entire time we were in therapy. It was clear that the narcissist was totally playing everyone…to appear like the ‘victim’, and had no intention on taking therapy seriously, or attempting to change his ways. He liked deceiving people. Made him feel powerful and in control of the ‘fools’ who were trusting enough to believe his endless lies. I’m sure he will go to his grave without ever looking inwards at what drives the behaviour that is so meaningless and self-sabotaging, he has to lie to absolutely everyone to keep it under cover.
How can he serie cheat and let the psychiatrist believe he is right?
@@roygriend5143 Therapists working with couples always have two conflicting stories being told. In time, they can figure out which one is twisting the facts. But…it always takes time. And the truth always does, eventually…come out.
@@cheryldee95 ok, i did read it wrong. I even tought he got away with all those cheating but you got him via instagram!
great summary. And funny at 3:29 ! btw 2 covert narcissists - one for therapist, one for patient = supplyship for life!
Narcissism is the only disease where the victim instead of the perpetrator will go for therapy! Totally bizarre. But not surprising. (Accountability is like KRYPTONITE to those types!)
Really good videos! My ex-covert hoovered me, and, like an idiot, I accepted; I was still in the dark about narcissism at the time. She texted how excited she was to get to see me again and catch up, but the first thing she said upon my arrival was, "My therapist is going to @%*! when she hears I met with you." She managed to indirectly put me down twice more before we parted. Lesson here; do not accept a hoover, and her therapist could very well have been completely hoodwinked by her as I was.
You only received the option from your ex-covert narcissist on her therapist, which by actually meeting the professional mental health professional could change your impression of the therapist
@@edwinswift2646 ok
This is really helpful. I do wish that there was less pathologising of conditions though. Ultimately personality disorders are rooted in trauma - when you say the vulnerable narcissist 'thinks' they're the victim, they literally are a victim because they never got treatment for their childhood trauma I guess and are therefore stuck in a survival state.
You’re making excuses for demons in human form. Always someone else’s fault eh?
@@the701squad1 umm...your argument kind of loses credibility when you refer to people as 'demons'. Not very mature. I'm allowed to ponder why people are the way they are and show empathy. More empathy is needed in this world.
I'm just breaking out of 30 years with a Narc!!!
A few years ago I demanded that my husband go to see a Narcissist therapist and he did exactly what you said,
he presented his version of events to her and he came home telling me the therapist reckoned that I was probably the narcissist! I was shocked that this so called expert was not aware of his game play, Anyway I've called time on our marriage and things are getting shitty, but I will get through this and get away. A lot of damage has been caused to myself and my adult children. I'm by no means perfect (have traumatic childhood leaving me with beliefs of powerlessness and very low-self esteem- Narcissist magnet!) but I can't do it anymore, I'm worn out and won't allow him to drive me to insanity. Peace, strength and success to all who are breaking away from this sort of toxic person.
🎉you are not alone. 27 years. Now escaping.
Yesss this is the one. Whenever my narc ex would have her therapy sessions she would make sure I'm not around or eavesdropping. It make sense why now, because she would be lying to the therapist to get ammo to use against me from further confirm her false narrative that she was the victim when in fact she was the narcissist. She had other therapists before but they seen right through her bullshit and she dropped them QUICKLY. It all makes sense now. What's terrible is that she's only hurting herself in the end by prolonging the inevitable realization that she has NPD BPD along some sort of lines. Thank you so much for MY validation. Because I know the truth just like you do. I hope her current shrink isnt as daft as I'm making her out to be. She might not cause she hasn't been going as frequently lately cause she felt some sort of disconnect with her. Lol you can't make this shit up😅
My covert GF makes befriending her therapist a priority. Overshares and wants everyone she meets to think how worldly she is or alternatively, how much of a victim of bad luck she is.... all depends on what she think will work with a particular individual. This made couples counselling a nightmare as well... I couldn't get a word in edgewise, and the counsellor wasn't observant of that :-/
OMG looking for validation from the therapist was bang on. She stopped going when she developed rotator cuff pain, rationalizing that "the pain distracts me from doing the mental work of therapy". Uhhuh...
The best thing to happen to me - Is there a best thing about being married to a narcissist? - is that when I asked her to go to marriage counseling, she refused. But it wasn't that she refused, her response was, "We don't need marriage counseling. There is nothing wrong with our marriage." She yelled it at me! And that was the end of the discussion. And that was also the day I realized I was not married to a normal person. Thank goodness.
So you realized you had to get out, and you did?
@@Eduardude The judge signed the divorce decree in May. I left her the house and all that was there. I went no contact in April. Still working out the logistics, but I'm packing for a 3 year fishing trip - I'm retired. Leaving within a month. Where to you may ask? Wherever the road leads me. Got a camper to live in while I figure out where I'm going to live in my old age. It's a big country (USA). And still plenty of time left. Sad that I lost 12 years. But better for it. And much wiser.
@@brianlane9534 I wouldn’t have left her the house. Sell it and get your part from it. Don’t be a fool. She will never ever care about you or your health or anything, sell the house. Get your part. And buy something small. Please stand up for yourself
@@bodybuilder2194 I got exactly what I wanted from the split. Not in the way I would have imagined, but in the end, I got what I wanted, and I'm doing what I wanted to do for a long time. "Giving" her the house was the easy way out. It truly was. She may have gotten more than she deserved, but sometimes the price of freedom is worth it.
I’m going through this right now with my wife of 11years she runs my business she’s diagnosed with bpd but is most definitely npd but won’t admit it and has gone through 2 therapists ..I’m ready to sell everything and travel
This makes so much sense.
I dated a woman who told me she had been diagnosed with BPD by psychiatrists, but that she believe she had been misdiagnosed and that her problems were a result of her trauma from abusive/toxic relationships (and there seemed to be many of these). She also told me there were things about her relationships she never told her psychiatrists/therapists. She would also tell me things her therapist would suggest and would directly ignore the advice she didn't like.
As the "relationship" with her began to wind down, she started showing many covert NPD tendencies mentioned in many of these videos, and the relationship and behaviors followed some of the really obvious patterns.
Of course, I'm not a professional, so I'm not diagnosing, and the situation was very toxic, manipulative, and unhealthy. But videos like this sorta validate that I wasn't dealing with healthy, well-adjusted individual or situation.
Dealing with the same thing word for word smh 🤦🏽♂️
When I get counseling, I share examples of my narcissistic tendencies and they can relate (I first tell them about my narcissism).
They generally believe I can't be a narcissist.
When I notice their body language change I hold back a bit. I tell them about my narcissism but when I feel like I'm oversharing, I hold back so that I'm not judged.
I'm probably not a full narc, but when I look back at my past, I think "wow, I was very narcissistic"
Glad I know now.
Yeah, she said she was in therapy and I can't imagine how she wouldn't have been labeled a narcissist.
My covert narcissistic husband started therapy, and the therapist wanted to talk to me. I went in once and told him my husband is narcissistic. He wants to see us together for the next visit. I do not think it’s a good idea. My husband thinks he is the victim and I have abused him for years. I am greyrocking and we do not interact that much.
My ex and I went to therapy like this and, in the last meeting the therapist said "this is as good as he will get. It's up to you to decide if it's going to work for you."
It was not and I left with nothing after 23 years married, 9 years dating through high school & college, 3 children. It has not been easy and the kids keep me having to stay in contact with him the past 10 years after divorce.
So many years...40 years of my life...hindsight; one million red flags that I thought I could change to green. Believe your narcissits and make your choice. You have all the worth in the world❤
Just looked up "greyrocking." This reminds me of my relationship with a former girlfriend. I was not as smart as you and used too much energy trying to negotiate disputes with her (she had some mix of BPD and NPD, though I had never heard of those things at the time, or at any rate I knew next to nothing about them and did not suspect her of having a clinical illness). But in a dispute, she never yielded a millimeter, never really considered what I said, never compromised, never acknowledged the slightest validity to any criticism, on the contrary, she would go into a bizarrely demonizing rant against me. I recall at a certain point I did realize I simply had to be silent, that I could get nowhere, as she ranted. Then she commented after a while on my silence in response to her bizarre and extreme diatribe, which actually did sound nuts to me, but I wanted to ignore the red flag. Anyway, after I was silent for a while, she said, "You remind me of my sister -- she just looks and says nothing in response." I did not know that was called greyrocking.
My experience of engaging in greyrocking is that doing it embodies and epitomizes the hopelessness of a "relationship" with a BPD/NPD person.
Not much future for our marriage right now! I just can’t invest much into it, because I am getting back nothing.
At a guess, particularly because they haven't said why they want you to both come in, your husband has the therapist fooled or the therapist is an enabler and wants you to come in so he can help your husband brow beat you. I'd say unless the therapist says what they want to do in the session (and you want to), avoid. Even if they do say what they want to do they might still enable browbeating, but atleast at that point you can see they are not doing what they said they wanted to do.
Im the daughter of a covert narcissist, at 65 I'm still getting over the toxicity of that relationship. in my 20s when i began to think something was not right, I convinced my mother to come to a psychologist with me. in the first (and only) session, the psychologist told me to shut up and stop being a whining child. I left feeling devastated and almost suicidal.
I had a shrink encourage me to keep trying for an ex-girlfriend who obviously being evasive with a smile. I trusted them and kept trying for a little bit without over trying. Thank God that the internet was becoming a thing in the 2000s and plenty of men and women help me pull my head out of my ass.
Later on, she pretended to connect just so she could use me for something. I was devastated and glad that I went to a different shrink so I could go no contact for years. (I don't need psychiatrists that often, not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's like a war room where you need an objective opinion that gets you into a better direction)
My guess is that it wasn't the first session... in the sense that your mother talked to the therapist before you had your first session. By the time you met the therapist, they were already convinced that your mother is a model parent and you are a problem child. A good example of how a narcissist's victim can't help the narcissist. You can only believe in yourself, grieve for the absence of a normal relationship, then set very clear boundaries to your interaction. (And at the age of 51, that's how I'm still trying to deal with my own mother. Age hasn't made her wiser).
@@christopherchadwick2389 yeah your probably right. They like to have the inside track and prepare with early manipulation. That's a really good read.
ha ha ha, my father was a grandiose narcissist, and he fooled most of the therapists. In fact, the female ones often seemed to be transfixed by his spell. He went because he ran out of narcissistic supply, and the therapists then became his new supply. When he finally died his therapist came to me and said, "your father gave me permission to discuss his case with you, if you would like to know anything." I took her up on her offer. When we met she said, "Your father was always very bewildered by your mum leaving him."
"Oh really?" I responded. "Did he mention that he used to beat her up? That might be one reason...."
"Oh", she said, sounding quite shocked. "He never did mention that."
"Really - in 2 years of therapy he didn't proffer violence as a possible causal reason for peoples' distance from him?"
In short, the therapist then went on to defend him and say, "I know a Narcissist when I see one and your father was not one!"
She even maintained this after 2 years of therapy was revealed to be a lie (ie he omitted all of his behaviour and, instead, cast himself as a victim, which she bought hook line and sinker. Worst ever therapist I ever met.)
Therapist may very well have been a narcissist, feeding on your pain. Very high percentage of people in the pastoral/ therapy fields as people open up and give physiological passwords early
Very informative, thanks. A list of more or less what my ex told the therapist, i.e. she was the victim. She claimed I was controlling, but she couldn't give any expmples whereas I could give plenty. Pity I didn't have Lise's insights 16 years ago.
I noticed my ex does not seem to keep the same therapist for very long. This really helps explain that.
While reading articles on narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), I came across an article by a trained mental health professional. By knowing he had narcissistic traits, the trained mental health professional was able to keep the dark side in check and preventing NPD from occurring. NPD can be addressed once the individual accepts they have these traits and wishes these traits to be controlled by them instead the traits controlling their lives. Thank you for a very informative presentation.
I had a narcissistic friend who's friend was a therapist (who incidentally was a flying monkey in her smear campaign against me). She also went to another therapist mostly to get supply but more sinisterly to find out what makes people in her life tick. None of these therapists had a clue she was a narcissist, even though she did. She knowingly played everyone. Alas the only person who figured her out was me because I was her 'best friend'.
Hey Lise, thank you very much for the concise presentations.
This is really clear. It's the toxicity that's the issue at the end of the day, e.g. gas-lighting, etc.
After a relatively long marriage to someone I believe is a covert narcissist I was under the impression that I had all kinds of negative behavior traits. After the divorce I felt freed (albeit sad), and so many people approached me to inform me of how awful my ex wife treated them (and me). I realized all of the things she was saying about me (being angry, emotionally distant, I’d never change, etc) was simply her projecting her faults onto me. It became clear when I realized no one else in my life accused me of the things she did, and in fact almost everyone said I was almost the exact opposite of what she accused me of … and person after person stated it was her that was angry, emotionally distant and immature, cruel, lazy, etc…. I now understand how she weaponized couples counseling against me. Every session was her being the victim and me or someone else was the bad guy who needed to change. She was always the sweet, innocent victim. Just ask her. I realized that her victim mentality gave her an excuse to act cruelly towards anyone that had “victimized” her. Of course, victimizing her just meant not giving her exactly what she demanded.
Thank You so much. I have been watching your videos for several months and the information has been very helpful. You explain so many aspects of NPD in ways that are very accessible. I’m a survivor and I’m still healing. You have helped a lot! Again, thank you 🙏
Thank you for this video! I thought I was going crazy when he was going to therapy and coming back telling me that his therapist says I was the narcissist and I was the problem not him. I had a gut feeling something was fishy. Its taken me a long time to see through his games. It is good to know that therapist can see through after a period of time. I always wondered why he stopped seeing that (and any) therapist after a while. Thank you for this video explanation!
One of the major things I experienced with my covert narc partner, that she never took responsibility for her own words and actions(when these action were doing something wrong or fails) and always tried to put the blame on me. She was very good at that. In the beginning of the relationship she messed my mind so badly, that I was so confused about the reality, but later on with all the other tricks I started to see her through. It was a very difficult journey to come out of that relationship, but now I have managed to protect myself from her attacks. We have a 7 year old daughter , so I have to see my ex often and I hope she does not take her narcissistic behaviour over.
I must say, my ex displayed the same tendencies. No accountability, blame shifting, & ignorant Comments. She acted entitled by reminding me we were only " dating " and I didn't own her. She had freedom to do what she wanted and talked about her past relationships constantly. She seemed to be stuck in a" time lock" with her personality. She was 46 but had the mentality of a 17 yr old teenager. So bizaar. She only listened to one band " Journey ". That was because her ex boyfriend and her listened to them in highschool and she was reliving that relationship over and over when she listened to the songs. I believe the break-up trauma ruined her, or suspect she was sexually molested by his alcoholic father? Too many signs point to severe emotional trauma during that time period. After psychological trauma, they become STUCK in an alternate reality because their minds can't process what happened so they begin to make false narratives. Just dealing with a damaged mind at that point. It's crazy.
Can they be both of these things? This is so deep. I agree on not diagnosing, because pathologizing the whole world, when things do not make sense, seems to stop us from crossing a bridge of love into each other. So correct on the therapy part. My partner would not attend therapy, though she asked for us to see a counsellor I went every week for 9 months, and she went for and intro for 45 minutes was late, and basically went for zero months. To all out there, I think if you can co - arrange counselling with your partner, and they do not show up, it is a strong indicator of something deeper going on. Especially if they are dismissing the counsellor as in the example in this video. PS. you can not drag a person to counselling, and I would not recommend threatening them to do it. I have not done this, but I think it is a bad idea. Just go alone, it can shed real light into your world. And give one very good resources and at least discover that you are not alone. All the best.
After watching many of your videos I want to say thank you! Your content is very helpful in ways the other channels are not. This video is a great example, you explaining this very important subject that I have thought about myself but never found in another video addressing it.
I have watched many many “narcissism” videos and find your videos to be some of the best. It really doesn’t make sense why your channel and videos aren’t way more popular and have many more views, but for some reason I’m just seeing it after several years of watching the popular ones. Possibly it’s because you’ve only had a channel around a year?
Anyway, thanks again, your videos are appreciated.
1) They are putting on a show for the therapist (4:47)
2) Different combinations of symptoms and presentations of the disorder
3) NPD can co-occur with axis one mental disorders like bipolar or depression (one disorder masks the narcissism)
4) Co-occurring access to disorders (they meet the criteria for other disorders making it hard to discern which diagnosis fits best)
5) Coverts are really good at manipulating people
Oh, the passive aggression. My mother is THE world champion. She could give me days of silent treatment already when I was a toddler.
Eye opening and Life changing once this realization has come to light . Absolutely right years can be wasted on trying to “save “ the relationship by “fixing” their behaviour
It can’t be fixed …key word Save yourself and get out
I'm sure that bubble my narcissistic ex resides in with her therapist only makes her more self-centered. Her "psychological tool" was always to distance herself more and more from me and be cold, even though I had tried everything to make her feel safe and welcome.
In order for a covert narcissist to actually get diagnosed by a therapist, they have to go to therapy. We all know they will never ever admit they have a problem and seek out medical treatment for their distorted views of the world or the insane expectations they repeatedly place on others.
This was not the case with my ex. She did get a therapist, but it was as Leblanc points out; it was simply to get validation. I overheard her conversation one day when she left her office door wide open, and it was a whole lot of how her ex (I was her current supply at the time) had totally screwed up her life. They have a very hard time admitting any fault, and as you say, many never do.
@@norobbery Of course. They have to lay blame somewhere. It's never their fault. My former friend was no exception to this rule. I can name at least 50 people that came and went over the time that we were friends. Who was the common denominator? My former friend. Who was the problem? My former friend. How much of it was all flipped tales in which she was really the aggressor and they were the true victims of her boundary stomping? All of them. Once you throw your hands up you realize that there is no hope for them and your only chance at reclaiming your sanity is to go no contact, you just do it. I had to.
Not sure they will NEVER. I gather with borderline personality disorder, there are two types: the functional kind and the dysfunctional kind. The high-functioning BPD person pretty much never goes into therapy, not seriously. But the dysfunctional BPD person's life can sometimes go so badly wrong that they can no longer remain in denial that something is not right with them. The founder of dialectical behavior therapy seems to have created it in response to her own BPD. She was so dysfunctional she was hospitalized, had electro shock therapy, and so on. After that, eventually, she created dialectical behavior therapy, which has been found by some research to be better than a lot of other therapies for BPD, and yet even if dialectical behavior therapy is the best available for BPD, dialectical behavior therapy seems to be considered only "moderately" effective.
I also recall another online group therapeutic program for people with BPD. The program was run by a woman who claimed she was formerly BPD but had overcome it and could teach others to overcome it. More power to her.
@@iononcantomascrivo Ditto, I had a somewhat similar experience. It took me a long time though, to realize I had to throw my hands up, reclaim my sanity, and go no contact.
@@Eduardude So you understand, then. Of course, my narcissistic former friend was in no way ever going to admit defeat. Do you know what she did? After I completely blocked her on everything and changed my cell phone number, she had the audacity to Google my widow mother's phone number and call her up looking for me. You read that right. First she used the death of a mutual friend as an excuse for calling to “inform” me. Never one to let a tragedy go to waste, she quickly segued into talking about herself and then tried to get my mom to commiserate with her about what a butthole I am for ending our friendship.
A little fact about my mom. She is a German Jew native New Yorker with a very big mouth. She takes absolutely no crap and makes Judge Judy Sheindlin look like a cream puff by comparison. Mom took her to task and called her something that rhymes with selfish trucking grunt and stated I had blocked her on everything for a reasons that are “already well known” to her and to “f*ck off.” My former friend, then a 50 something mother and grandmother, according to Mom, wailed like a child who just got denied candy before dinner time. The call was quickly ended after that.
Wow, You've been pointing out exactly the situation I have been in for 8 years with a narc co-parent (and prior to that for years in the actual relationship). The past 4 years she seemed so much better but one minor set back and she threw tantrums like never before, and basically we're back where we started... And she does go to therapy and exactly as you said, she used the therapist to prop her own toxic behaviour, blatantly lying about what the therapist had said. Thankfully she got called out on that by the therapist, only now a few years later, to completely deny that every happened. And endless battle...
My female ex covert won't see male therapists because one guy told her that her views weren't " realistic " and she refuses to see any men-therapists. She is stubborn and won't change. It was exhausting dealing with her when she became head strong. A very good hearted gal, but she had alot of personality disorders. BPD, OCD, NPD, and germ issues. It was overwhelming. She was too much to deal with, I had to take the loss and walk after 18 months. It drove me insane. Crazy
Would love if you would do a video describing a normal person.
Too many avoidant, narcissist ppl using NPD as a means to label their partner and avoid accountability
Thank you for a very informative and supportive message.
I have an intake-conversation this May at a psychologist. I'm 100% sure I'm a covert narcissist. But in my case, I think they won't even believe it when I say it. Because it's like you said.. there are often other mental disorders. In my case autism and anxiety. To be honest.. when you said in your video that patients say that the therapist is unqualified, I thought the same about therapists. I have the feeling that they have a black/white picture of a narcissist and they quickly dismiss the possiblity that they are dealing with a narcissist.
My person has bipolar 2. When she is hypomanic, she shows her covert narcissism. Hates me, then gives breadcrumbs, just to ignore me again for weeks as she gets supply from others. Been 25 years. She loves her therapist. I know she lies to her just like when i over hear her talking to her friends about me. Nobody sees this but me....very frustrating. Story much more complicated. Cannot go no contact, etc. Im stuck. By the way...your content is spot on.
@9:45
With time, I believe a narcissist will show who they truly are. Many of them can give very elaborate lies. Some people can't remember their lies too well. Once you figure out a narcissist, the gloves kind of come off. Be careful with triangulation. They may get others involved to be against you. Don't participate in conversations concerning triangulation.
A good way to defend against a narcissist is to distance yourself from them. When they choose to purposely behave badly towards you, cut off communication and distance yourself from them. Continue to do this until you see changes. I believe some narcissists hate being ignored (possible abandonment issues). After a while of trying, if you see you are wasting your time, you may need to leave permanently.
You can't change people. It is up to them if they want to change or not. Try not to argue with them. It is mostly a waste of time (I feel). Some narcissists will pay more attention to actions than words. Don't give them threats or ultimatums. Do what you have to and don't inform them about it. Which may hurt them more. Not that you are purposely trying to hurt them. Do what is good for you while not trying to hurt them. Even though, they may get hurt anyway because of their sensitivity issue.
Salute to therapists ❤
I was with a covert narc the counselor was working with him and his behavior. I overheard the narc say oh he's going to like this while journaling, what the counselor had ask. He never tried to change his behavior just tried to convince the counselor that he didn't have a problem. At the end of the marriage he told me he didn't have a problem and didn't need me.
Love your work, so glad and appreciate your work and glad i caught your work Ma'am.
very smooth explanation....impressive.
Great well thought out presentation
Confirmed what I was thinking, thank you
Yep! Perfectly fits the description of someone very close to me Who has mastered the art of convincing every marriage counselor we’ve had that she is the poor victim of an abusive, narcissistic husband. So, two questions: does the covert narcissist engage in a lot of white washing? That is to say, painting herself as never having done anything wrong or having made mistakes for which she needs to sincerely apologize. Second, is pervasive dishonesty one of the traits of a covert narcissist?
After i caught my ex having an affair, she wanted to go to family Therapy. At the first session, the therapist asked us what are some values that we would like to focus on, my ex immediately jumped in to talk about how much respect was important to them. I didnt go to any others after that.
NO! And mine [ex] did not fit the above two categories. He was generally a mid-range, communal narc who slid up and down the scale depending on "stress and temption." The narc coopts the therapist as a source of supply. If this fails, the narc stops going to the therapist. We saw the same one for 'marriage' counselling for seven years where he stared at his feet looking like the world's greatest victim. Well, the first three years he had a relationship with a secret life, replete with a mistress which he claims he left just before she discovered she was pregnant with his child [we had two little boys at home]. SEVEN years of letting the therapist [and likely the mistress] think I was the source of the dischord while I ached for him, poor man, because he was 'depressed.' 34 years of marriage [off and on]. I learned about narcissism a year after the final discard and all the chaos made sense. There you go! [She just hit 9:00 min in]. Free now, thank God. Yes, the last therapist was his alone, [my idea because I had NO IDEA what I was dealing with] and life at home became pure hell. After a few years he thought she didn't like him [anymore] because he caught her horrified expression once or twice when he told her some of the things he had done. He dropped her at this point. Yes, my lived experience mirrors this video. I wish I had had this information decades ago. It would also have helped me with my mother. Better late than never, I guess.
I've see a lot of therapists. FEW UNDERSTAND NARCISSISM! They may claim they do but the don't once you start the conversation.
I have one at work. She refuses to get help. I am doing the cut off. Problem is I work with her 4 days a week and am on full discard.
So I was originally diagnosed with BPD...if I remember right, in the beginning I mostly asked why questions and blamed myself for how things happened...only until recently have I been asking my therapist if other ppl were actually the problem, and several times asked if I was a narc because of certain things, and each time they said no...it's actually interesting because watching other vids about BPD, i feel like some parts make sense and others dont...all in all, I question if I have some form of Schizo because of alot of things, I don't mean to push ppl away, I just want to feel "better"...thanks for pointing out these things though, it's a good video
My brother went to couple's therapy with his covert narc wife and the first two sessions were about their problems regarding her lack of affection and contentious nature (picking up fights all the time), but from the 3rd session onwards somehow the narc twisted the couple's therapy into my brother being a horrible person for not having loads of sex with the narc... but who would want to sleep with a "hostile person" as he put it? Anyway, after about 6 sessions or so where the narc tried to use the therapist against my brother they broke up and divorced... she never went to therapy in her life, even though she massively needs it, she has several issues and a significantly traumatic childhood, but she won't ever go to therapy because she thinks it's other people's fault, or the universe's...
From my own experience, they rarely do go.
You have to remember that your brother wasn't the first person - not will he be the last.
More likely she has had a lifetime of history with disfunctional relationships.
Having to unravel all of this might actually cause her severe panic attacks.
My therapy was to do with my experience with the narcissist - her's is most likely everyone she's ever met.
Ps. Not trying to belittle your brother's experience - just explaining the situation the best I can from my own experience.
people are not really one or the other, more like a mixture of all of them in different degrees. They all stem from similar deficiences in the formative years 3-5, mainly from lack of motherly love/compassion/empathy/etc
I see. I had thought my ex was a covert narcissist, but your description makes me realize they were actually just a normal grandiose narcissist.
Thank you Lise 🤗
I say its more like “2% or less” of therapist or counselors are able to recognize a narcissist or a person dealing with NPD.😒
I have been in marital counseling for decades trying to figure out what was occurring in my relationship, and why my it was so difficult in my marriage with a High Conflict Wife (Jekyll-Hyde):
Not one recognized my wife’s narcissism and narcissistic traits at all.
After she left my life; I figured it all out and know that she is a malignant Covert Narcissist along with her mother. I had two in my life for 3 decades and ended up being abused by them and any therapist in therapy she triangulated every time; since my wife refused to be transparent, truthful and honest about her behavior.
I was placed on many medicines through the years due to being misdiagnosed; since I was constantly in emotional distress.
I admitted my issues and struggles in therapy every time; my wife played games and triangulated the therapist constantly.
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I now find myself more educated than most therapist these days, since I spent years directly exposed to narcissist for 3 decades; researched to become knowledgable and spent 4 years in therapy recovering with a qualified experienced psychological trauma therapist.
At times these days, I find myself giving the therapist/counselor an education about narcissism and so on, and I do not have a degree in it.
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This is truly sad. I got stuck in a long term marriage of madness that made no sense. All of therapist and counselors I attended therapy sessions with over 3 decades failed to see the truth about my relationship. I thought it was me, so I took medicines and adhered to treatment that was totally incorrect for me or my situation. Wow!!! Sucked!!!!
I spent $1000s of dollars and took medicines that were totally unnecessary. 😩
I ended up being psychologically trauma bonded, dealing with Severe Depression and CPTSD along with many other ailments (migraines, sicknesses, exhaustion, and so on.) as a result.
Wow!!!!
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Its important for people to interview their therapist to ensure the therapist is familiar with “Narcissism, NPD, Trauma Bonds, Stockholm Syndrome, Narcissistic Personality Types, CPTSD, Healthy Recovery from NPD ABUSE, Narcissistic Abuse and so on.🤔
I’m living your life right now
A Covert Narc. is a mortified Overt Narc. who is on the `down low´ until they can flip back into grandiosity with a new source of supply.
Sometimes be missed? Unfortunately, I think most mental health professionals have almost zero education and/or understanding of NPD and it’s insidious and covert abuse.
I'm tired of being narcissistic man, it's so hard to fight, I haven't been diagnosed, but I am self aware
Wow so proud of you~ ❤😊
between my two sisters everything you said in the video (one covert and one overt)
Could you do a video about how NPD and C-PTSD overlap?
When the covert narcissist doesn't completely fool the therapist (i.e. marriage counselor) they simply quit, saying "this isn't working for ME".
I’m an autistic therapist, and covert narcissists can be particularly hard for me to spot.
A guy at work is narcissistic and has been with the same therapist for over ten years. He still plays the same games so the therapy isn't working. So she's either been duped or she knows but is doing her best to help him change.
I made my borderline partner jealous by interacting with the therapist myself 'covertly' and then being 'found out' - i kept it secret so that she would easily discover me. I made her feel left out at the disco, the only kid who hadn't made some improvements, but she also felt validation because the diagram i made at the session had all her complaints about me on it, with actionable solutions. I let her win - i was forbidden from attending therapy of any kind because i was obviously incurably insane and it would only be a waste of time. She kept my diagram, which had the phone number of the therapist on it. She covertly contacted the therapist herself, with the goal of preventing further interactions with me, and she arranged to recommence treatment. This time the treatment was a resounding success - she underwent 'reconnection' and was a different person from then onwards. This only took a couple of weeks.❤
Lol this is so spot on.
I wish I had watched you in 99. I lost 20 plus years of my life due to this narcissist as because of her I could not have met a healthy person and have a normal relationship with , and now at 57 I’m all alone trying to heal from both the emotional and physical trauma (that she inflicted under cover of what she conveniently cslled an “accident”)
Great video. Very helpful
2 heads of the same coin. Overt or covert depends on who has the power position. Both under the right conditions will display the other side of the coin. Coverts will become overt and overts will become covert.
Women tend to be more covert and men are more overt.
My ex got rapid cycling bipolar. That didn't fit in my opinion.
She used the therapist for prescriptions and validation and used the therapist as a tool to use against me. Triangulation. She was the conduit for all information. You support her thru it all. While she is using you and sabotaging you to bring you down so she can get the power position away from you. If she can do it then you will see the real monster behind their masks.
She gives you silent treatment to punish and train you. If she sees it really bothers you it feeds her and makes her strong.If you ignore her silent treatment it starves her. Depression, paranoia, psychotic episodes. They scramble to discard you and promote a backup supply. Attention is their oxygen.
Very interesting and informative
you look a little like jessica alba, not jessica alba the movie star, but the one that was tim and eric's awesome show great job! with tommy wiseau
There is a lot of overlap between npd and bpd in terms of ego function deficits. The npd person is tied to the train tracks. Biggest victim. In the vulnerable type.
It's been brought to my attention (by a self aware narcissist) that npd and bpd are actually the same thing. BPD is usually what women with NPD are diagnosed with for some reason. Same animal.
BPD and NPD, although they may have some overlapping symptoms, are not the same at all. I am BPD and have a very healthy 22 year marriage as well as close relationships with two amazing kids. As I have watched Lise’s videos on NPD I can see that there are some traits that may seem like the other. But as a BPD I have been very open to change and have experienced huge success in therapy.
@@puppetproblems2935 H. G. Tudor
Merci Lise, Je m’appelle Sylvain et j’etudie ça pour 18 mois la…
My ex wife has a bpd diagnosis. Claims im a narc. Therapist dd nothing but validate her. Sounds so familiar. I’ve never been depressed until she cheated on me. I’ve always been pretty resilient person. She nearly ended me. I will never forgive her.
If they puting in the time many alternate on the therapy ....I think and then walk out offended for they altercation brought on hurt. So they say I did my time mask it again and abuse begins new victim.
Very, very good video.