Carbon fiber VS Aluminum X beam
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- čas přidán 9. 07. 2024
- In this one, Im comparing both beams in different scenarios.
I also tested printing with the 2 tubes, but I can't see any difference in quality of the parts or anything. Unless maybe we push beyond what input shaper can do ? But other than that, both Beams perform very good.
Aluminum vz-beam video • New VzBoT X Beam
Alu Vz-Beam: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_DFS...
CF beam vz235: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_DFQ...
CF beam Vz330: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_Dmr...
Printers:
-full Vz235 printer kit: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_Dld...
-Full Vz330 printer kit: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_DkF...
Printer Parts:
-X Vz-Beam: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_DFS...
- Waterpump kit I use here: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_DEt...
-240mm Radiator: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_DFO...
-120mm x2 fan: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_DEJ...
-Vz-HextrudORT watercooled : s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_DEZ...
-Goliath watercooled : s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_DDP...
-Fly Super 8: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_A8mOXD
-Drivers s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_AFDBtp
- XY Motors: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_9iN6y9
-Alu Water cooling blocks: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_DlK...
-Fittings: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_DEV...
-water cooling kit: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_Dnc...
-48V PSU: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_Dcf...
-CPAP fan: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_Dmk...
-CPAP tube: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_A9rUYd
(complete part list can be found on the BOM list on github link below)
-Eibos filament dryer: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_Dc7...
Full VzBoT Printer project: (BOM, cad, stl): github.com/VzBot3D/
Hi Simon, I'll help you out as I'm currently building a VzBot 330 and happen to have the new Mellow CF X Beam. The CF Beam weighs 50.06g, End Cap = 3.99g, M3 Nyloc Nut = .375g and M3 x 8 SHCS = .670g. Ok let's add everything up and see what we have... 50.06+(3.99x2)+(.375x6)=(.670x6)=64.31g. So the total weight of my CF beam with screws, nuts and inserted print blocks is = 64.31 grams.
I went with the aluminum beam. Even if the CF is lighter... the cool factor of CNC X Beam wins for me. :)
I thought the CF was cooler!
@@Dustmuffins Cool is in the eye of the beer holder. LOL No worries, it's good to have choices because we don't all like the same thing.
FYI, just recieved a carbon beam. The reason for the different appearence for the version they are selling now is a quite heavey layer of laquer whish make the beam not flat at the surfaces. I had to sand it flat to make a good surface for the linear rail. No biggie, but not ideal.
Thanks for the info!
I got my cf-tube today is twisted out of the box, very disappointed
Is it ordered from mellow?
I would definitely pay for the enhanced CF tube
That heat test inside the printer was exactly what I wanted to see! Really nice testing!
Tempearture resistance for carbon fibre profiles can differ wildly. Cheap resin without post cure treatment wil soften at 60C. While aerospace oriented (prepreg) epoxies can have a Tg (softening temperature) of 200C. It's all about how much money is invested in production equipment. A high Tg carbon profile will have a much higher price tag then a conventional one. But it would be possible to make such a profile for 3d printing. It would be the next level in high speed high temp printing!
Let's make it a round CF tube x2 and use linear bearings for rods just like the bambulab x1c does.
I think there is a lot of performance lost due to mass of the MGN rails+carriages.
@@Arek_R. I wouldn't use carbon as linear bearing material, it's not hard enough.
@@niekvangriethuysen5077 how come bambulab made it work?
Would love to see a more premium carbon fiber beam. Defiantly would need videos to back it up, hard to beat mellows prices on carbon beams at the moment so the performance would have to be there. Thank you for all you do for the community Vez!
Simon, I'd like to express my gratitude for your informative video. However, it's evident that the CF beam stands out as the superior choice. The aluminum beam received additional points due to a test that lacks relevance to VzBot or any DIY 3D printers, specifically, its heat resistance exceeding 100°C.
I'd be behind a high temp CF beam, and while you're at it, have different versions for different printers made including Vorons
Hello Simon, do you happen to know the deflection under weight of normal aluminum extrusions comparing to these two beams?
I guess it would be less than the CNC aluminum one but not sure about the CF beam. Thank you!
Great video as always ! would've been nice to see in the flexion test a comparison with the linear rail installed after to see if it stiffens the beam or change anything also with temperature
Love the video!, but that Slack notification at 10:50 went straight to my soul 😂
All the deflection tests performed without the rail don't give much information. The steel rail contributes to most of the rigidity of the assembly, so it must be on during the tests
I was just comparing bare tube with bare tube so its still accurate and apple to apple comparisson.
@@Vez3D Yes it will tell you which is better, but not by how much. The real deflections and the relative difference between the two will be less.
Thanks anyway for your tests :)
@@derson754 A=2 B=4 R=4
B is 100% stiffer than A
B+R (8) is only 33% stiffer than A+R (6)
@@derson754 because if they are basically the same in that regard one can focus on other differences
@Vez3D what is the thickness of the carbon beam? I want to do my beam with prepreg cf, with a tg of about 120/130°C. What is the critical themperature for 3d printer? for linear rails, belts
I'd be curious to know the flatness of the CF beam after the Linear rail is bolted to it.
Your English speak has been improved a lot in the last month, good job Vez
what if you sand down the imperfections on the carbon fiber beam?
Fantastic video! For your question about if a higher quality tube I think it would be a great idea! But like everything it depends on the cost. Are we talking double the price or like 5x the price?
whats a good build for a old Tronxy x5sa pro
Would there be a major difference in weight using 2 8 or 10mm carbon fibre rods vs the single beam for the gantry similar to the bambulabs?
I can't say anything about the weight difference, but cf rods would be way less stiff.
Seeing a perfect cf tube would be awesome!
What is the wall thickness of both beams tested?
and why just not using the linear rail alone? or one linear rail as the X gantry and one linear rail on the top of the extruder head or the side to lock it on the axial movement. Like a cross (one linear rail for the gantry and other linear rail for holding the other axial backlash from the gantry linear guide)
I would also pay extra for a high quality, high temp carbon beam.
I want to buy a VZBot 330 to be able to print peek and other high end materials, so should I go for the CF beam?
High temp would be more alu to be safe
Thanks for testing heat deflection, that was the one I was most curious about. Personally im not a big fan of heatsoaking my printer because im not waiting 45 minutes for a 30min print and its wasting quite a lot of electricity. Prices have come down, but in February or so the kwh was more than 40 cents and a big printer like my 350mm voron consumes quite some energy. So i will eventually switch to a carbon fiber beam once i find a suitable raw part
Is that a pure cf layup or a cf infused nylon?
why not do an aluminum beam with a titanium backer and anti-vibration pads on the connection points?
leaving aside the aluminum tube for its nature to resonate, if I'm not mistaken the xylophone is made of aluminum ... I know "very well" the composites for my aeromodelling hobby (ds and f3k speed gliders) ... a tube carbon square in aeronautical HT resin it does not bend up to 200⁰ Celsius..it has an extremely high twist coefficient and perfect dimensional accuracy....certainly those who produce these carbon tubes are not as accurate as the aeromodelling materials.. .the turning point could be a much lighter, much more resistant triangular section tube perhaps with aluminum bushings (ergal) for fixing the linear guide...my compliments for the video and for the availability you have... PS: to check flatness you need a black granite top, it is unique in guaranteeing 0.005 mm of flatness ...
I have a granit counter top but its texturee 😂 so i used my glass cooking plate😊
I would love a better quality flatter cf beam. Especially for my bigger printers including my 500 rat rig. I have one at the moment and it was ao painful getting it to work nicely.
@derson754 I have about 6 different carbon beams here and they are all warped, twisted, bowed etc and cause issues. The bed meshes change each time.
@derson754 some arrived twisted some twisted under heat over time. As in Simon's case a lot of them show up twisted. I haven't tried straightening with heat as I've seen what fatigue heat can cause on carbon fibre in other situations outside of 3d printing so I'm not sure if it would work. Maybe if you could match the internal diameter with steel or alloy beams and heat them enough to conform you might be lucky but I wouldn't personally try it.
Simon, you are an American Hero *son.*
Custom CF layup with triangles embossed in to the sides, then smaller triangles cnc'd inside after as speed holes.
Have you done any FEA to get an idea of which degree of freedom needs to be the stiffest? Axially or rotationaly?
I suspect a cylindrical / oval cross section that is larger in the center and tapers down at the ends would give the best stiffness to weight ratio, obvs it needs a flat on one side for the rail mount. Produced simmilar to CF drive shafts with spiral wrapped single strand of CF alternating direction
Well, sometimes I struggle and have to heatsoak the enclosure, CF is a winner not doubt. Already ordered one.
There is CF resin up to 160C. For example, easy components got such resin.
Nice testing and would easy pay double the money for a well put together CF beam 330.
I would like to pay for the enhanced CF tube.
What will be the approximate price ?
I would want the better carbon fiber beam.
Very nice and objective video.
I'm not an expert, and maybe this is a stupid thing to say, but wouldn't the linear rail (which I assume is straight and flat) sort of straighten the carbon beam? Or isn't it strong enough to do that?
It is straightening it a bit
Wow that’s a lot of deflection on the aluminum beam. I’d love to see a carbon beam with resin guaranteed to perform well at higher chamber temps. Although I can’t imagine I’ll ever be going higher than the 75C you tested in the oven and it still had a third of the deflection of the aluminum
10:13 = like i say on fb - even if its soft brand new , after heating it once for little higher temp (that it need to withstand) for few hours it will be stiffer and high temp wont affect it
but remember to not overheat it ... 100 maybe 120*C is probably resin they use max temp either way so you dont go over that
just heat the bed and put it on it + cover with something so it will heat up well
PS
DONT EVER PUT IT WHILE HEATING ON "NON FLAT" SURFACE .... while heating it will bend to shape you put it onto and stay at like that even if you heat it up again etc
so best option is to put it on something flat (maybe add some weight so it wont move ) and heat it up , then it will be as flat as the surface it was onto
PS2
if it isn't flat etc it's good option to just sand it like for example on glass
i do it on surface plate then its super flat (up to 0.01mm) but even glass will work just fine or do it on heatbed (use water on sandpaper so dust wont go everywhere and destroy electronics+ harm your lungs)
I love your channel mate, I ran a training session with the engineers at work and I referenced your work in 3D printing, you are one of my favourite additive manufacturing channels!
I would like some advice if you are able, I want a new printer with a build volume of 160mm cubed, cant be smaller than 151mm, and I want to get 50 cubic mm of material out, preferably using a .8 to 1mm nozzle, do you have any suggestions?
The goliath hotend will get you that flow. Or maybe the rapido. I would suggested you the vz150 but its 150x150.. so maybe a bit bigger like the vz235?
@@Vez3D Thanks mate
@@bulvi84you could build your own vz180. Might take some cad work to figure out all the extrusion length and how you're going to mount the electronics.
I’m interested for sure
I am going to be getting a 330; I will use the aluminum beam with it- because of needing to go to higher temps with most CF based filaments.
Coolness and design is a big point too 🎉 Since the rule of cool design is more performance, even when the tools say something else
You don't even need to ask, we only want perfection, let's go with the high temp resin!
im not sure anymore that I want to push on this. I get discouragement after reading some of the comments and some of the private messages I got. I dont want this channel to be seen like im trying to only sell stuff for money. Money is not my motivation. If it was, I would have stopped doing this for a long while ago. Do I make money of the VzBoT projects ? have to be honest, and yes I do. Is it enough to live on this? .. not at all. Is it enough to at least justify all the time and effort put behind the project ? not at all... I do this because im passionate and I like to push and I like to help people and help to improve the market and 3d printing in general. But I knew it would happen one day where people would think I am in this game only for money and all I do is trying to sell stuff. And that is hurting more than any other bad comments I have read on my socials since day 1. the small amount of money that gets here is shared with my team and is used to buy parts for printers, development etc.. and sometimes, yes a good rum bottle. More honestly, I must admit that a while ago I had hope that I could live from this passion and project, that I could make enough money to quit my day job and feed my familly with it.... well.. I quickly realized it was not possible UNLESS I turn this project into a busyness/corporate which I didn't like the idea. So I kept doing this because thats all I love doing, 3d printing, engineering developping, prototyping and mostly, love people and sharing with people and building a community where love is shared. It might be time for me to retire from this and start sleeping well again.
Really informative video Vez 👍
I’d gladly pay for a high quality cf beam.
Well I got that mellow CF beam for the voron and it's really bad. Both of those are not stiff enough, you can see it in the graphs. There are not enough holes and the rail will rotate on the beam. Also not very stiff in torsion even if the rail could be screwed tight to it, the holes in the back are weakening it. You should get a CF beam with 17mm inner diameter and use long bolts with printed inserts 100% infill and use at least every other hole. Will be twice as heavy but print quality will be way better and the added weight will not lose much accel. You can most easily see it on top layers with high accels. With a properly stiff system, you can't tell the difference between top and bottom layers.
From a purely practical perspective: How does a regular aluminum profile compare? What are the actual differences when printing?
I think it would be very interesting to see some kind of hybrid like in aircraft manufacturing. Maybe incase the beam in 2 or 4 layers of carbon to get both beneficial properties.
That would be a bad idea. Carbon tubes are often made around an aluminium mandrel, because when the temperature comes done after curing, the aluminium shrinks (while carbon doesn't) and the carbon releases. The CTE's are very far apart.
@@niekvangriethuysen5077 ah i didnt know that. But there are for sure ways to cobine those two materials so there would be some way to do it.
@@spinnoxx when combining the two in a laminate, you can add a layer of rubber film between the carbon and aluminum to compensate for the different contractions, or a semi rigid specialised adhesive can be used to bond the two together
a no-worries carbon beam would be cool! Also for non-vzbots. It would suit my ratrig very well.
I would also like a high performance carbon beam (high temperature, stiffness, flat, ...)
Glad I just bought a carbon tube for a 235. Imo looks way better than the aluminium
Especially the temperature deflection test intrigues me. Is this why Bambu Lab goes with carbon fiber tubes of their X-axis rods?
Anyway i own a humble Creality CR6-SE which has given me first layer variations. However since I enclosed the printer and temperature control the enclosure at 60 °C to print ABS (enclosure is heated to 60 °C using the bed and a 300W PTC heater blower plus a blower circulating air from the top of the enclosure to below the heated bed guaranteeing even temperature distribution) i never had any poor first layers any more, I didn't run my ABL for about a year now. Probably all the aluminum expands to the same amount every time. Before i was printing ambient and probably had significant deviations due to thermal expansion.
Yes! +1 for better quality Carbon fiber tube.
I would definitely pay more for a carbon fiber tube that’s geared towards our printers especially a big plus if it comes in 622mm for my VC3.1 haha
I think the amount of materials in the linear rails is not required. Cutting holes to reduce weight could, maybe help
Hey Vez, loves all your work four us hobby 3D printers. You truly upped the game the last year!
But man.. your voice is just waaay to low on your videos. Have to crank the volume to hear what you are saying and then get blasted by the music in your videos and YT advertisements xD
Interested in the higher performance carbon fiber tube
How about composite? Aluminum carbon sandwich?
The number of reddit comments saying that cf-beams warp because of thermal expansion differences with the rails made me buy an aluminum one. Now I want a cf =/
High temp forged carbon fibre is the way to go here. I am designing a printer based around this concept. You can create a very thin reinforced 3D hollow structure, whit the threaded inserts directly in it from the mould. And if you have some warping at the post cure process you can machine the mating surfaces.
Forged carbon fiber is for bling, not for strong parts.
Incorrect. You need to include long strand fibres and play whit play whit the distribution of fibres. but it is possible to make strong parts from forged carbon fibre. Recommend the following videos. First process of making, second testing. czcams.com/video/25PmqM24HEk/video.html czcams.com/video/eewlYa6IQPg/video.html@@jussisalonen7738
I wonder about the longevity of the CF compared to both CNC and Extruded aluminum beams.
there are pictures of failed CF tube where the whole linear rail was ripped out together with the nuts and only hanging on the belts
My cf beam been running for 2 years at velocity and accel that we dont normally see 😂 and still like new
@@seljd there are videos where people turn aluminum beams into knot without applying any significant force, but it proves nothing.
After seeing what happened to a Voron 2.4 with CF, I do not think it is very safe to use as the rail melted through the CF beam. I think I will stick to metal only for X
I would really like to se a better carbon fiber tube.
I recently bought a aluminum gantry vor my vz build because i see your resonance test with it at the 235 but now that ive seen yor test´s espacially the deflection under load or heat i really want a carbon fiber tube.
The only downsides are the bad tolerances but if you could get that right it is the overall better choice for most people
There's a problem with the CF beam. I use a CF beam on my voron for a few times, I found that the linear rail on the beam has become loose. The problem is, even you can mount the rail on the beam with the nut inside or fix them on the wall of the CF beam like the video. When the heavy print moving so fast on the Y axis, that force will twist the wall of the beam again and again. After a few times, the mounting place for the screw will become weak, and the whole rail becomes loose. You can hold the print head and try to push it back and forth, sadly you will find that it will swing like you haven't tighten the screw. But you will not have this on Alu beam
I never had that issue. Our rail is mounted on top. Not sure where you rail is. I guess in the front?
yep, Voron 2.4 in the front. But i think in case the whole print head's CG is not just sit on the rail, all the movement on Y axis will twist the CF beam's wall, and the range of the twist will increase when the head becomes heavy.@@Vez3D
I would definitely pay up for a high quality carbon fiber beam
Yes, I would pay more for a better Carbon fiber tube
I usually print at a depth close to the titanic so I'll try the carbon fiber beam. I'll edit this when I've gotta the chance to
still waitin for the @mandicReally collab
Id love to see a slightly thicker carbon fiber tube for 400-500mm rat rig style printers. Or something more universal!
I wish Mellow makes CF tube for ratrig v-core
Didn't really help much, still not positive what one to go with. Maybe leaning towards aluminum?
I have held onto my stock tronxy 2020 profile cut down sonce the start of my build. Pretty much everything else has been replaced
I now am to the point that i am wanting to cut weight so i can get acceleration up.
If you plan to build a better carbonfiber tube i can hold off for a bit longer. Assuming its not an extremely drastic price change but am willing to pay a bit more.
As for temperature I'm not super worried about it. I typically am 45c or under.
Carbon👍 And also for other printers.....
alu vs cf winner is titanium =))) i really hope u will convince mellow to make a titanium version
wait... you guys are using beams??
All these tests should've been done with the rail bolted, the rail provides a lot more strength when bolted to the beam
True..but still is valid test no? I wanted to compare bare to see
@@Vez3D if it's with the same rail i don't see why not, in the end,you use the beam with the rail,not by itself,so the beam together with the rail is the actual structure which carries the load
carbon fiber wrapped aluminum beam, and the reason, is that the dissimilar material will cancel each other out for vibration.
Make another test with a premium carbon fiber :D
I would pay more for a better beam :)
I would pay the extra for a high temp CF X beam, but only if it could be made 21mm high. Fighting to get those little shims lined up is by far my least favorite part of the VZ bot hardware.
Yes, more carbon :)
why not spring steal or better yet tool steal since stiffness is desirable.
Weight
I would pay for a better carbon fiber x beam i still have the old one and the new aluminum x beam maybe i have to build another vz
i would pay for a perfect cf tube
Imagine a 3d printed titanium isotruss 🤔
It’s in the nature of cf to not be as accurate… curing 2k warps the parts and prepreg in itself need to be enhanced afterwards by machining… clamping a linear rail against it will most likely correct those issues anyways ?! Enhancing its stiffness by the forces induced … it’s way stiffer that way. So making it more pleasing in its appearance is like glueing cf parts to your car for no practical reason.
I'd like a straight CF Y axis for 500mm vcore 3.1. I'd pay a 100$ for it.
Why you don't try to machining carbon tube to make it lighter (and still have rigidity) this could also help you to correct the surface of the tube to make it straight)
Thats exactly what i want to accomplish.
I was thinking this too and think this would be the best. Only downside is it will be more expensive because the CF beam will also need to be thicker if your machining it flat and machining those gaps in it. But hey, this end of the glorified hotgluegun spectrum is not really about the price.
If you are willing to spend around $200 McMaster-Carr has ultra-flat CF tubes that can operate at 120c. We would just have to drill them with a printed jig
Why don't you guys try Magnesium alloy bean or tube, becauze it the lightest metal there is!!
You can't machine the carbon fiber like the aluminum. If you tried to put the same kind of truss shape into the cf, you would lose the majority of the stiffness. If you want weight reduction with carbon fiber tubes, you need to use thinner walls.
Nice haircut vz
What did you study bro???
don't tell me, you started selling both 😂
I personally dont sell anything. Mellow does. now you will probably want to know if I make money from them and if im being objective ? Same on both.. about a dollar and a half after taxes. Now you have the honest picture. 2-300 sales in months making me rich !!
please start to take the 150 into account....
Its coming
After watching this video I'm going to return the aluminum one
10:12 "CNC" does not guarantee any flatness or perpendicularity, pretty bold, yet unproved claim
for this beam.. its been machined out from 21mm flatten down to 20mm to have flatness. If a CNC can not get a flat job done, then we have an issue :P
@@Vez3Di'd say that manual mill with dovetail has bigger chances to get you extreme flatness than typical linear rail cnc machine, it would be better if you'd measure deviations from your table, even thou it's not flattest thing on earth we could definitely see some difference between beams, meanwhile i'd say that you gave flatness and temperature resistance to aluminum beam just to make it tie with CF tube :)
Yeah the mellow kit comes with the (now proved) better cf beam
I would argue the dimension test is meaningless. The only surface that really needs to be true straight and flat is the rail mount. The other sides who cares, they just hanging out, nothing on them. You could shape your beam like a s and it wouldnt matter as long as the mounts are true.
Kinda feel like the test where made to help the aluminum win points. CF won on the test matter, stiffness and heat deflection. The tiny weight difference would take 1000s of gs to really start to matter. Figure it took 5Kg to get .1 deflection, thats what.... 500 gs to get that 8g to aprx 5Kg, then figure the weight is spread across the entire beam and yeah over 1000 before its meaningfully measurable.
I call RAW RAIL
u cant get a proper dimension in cf beam since u cannot machine it after this is my opinion about a better cf beam and yes i would pay for a titanium one black painted
now whats about the design? 😅 aluminum wins that point clearly in my op