My Last Chance to OVERPOWER my Vacuum! (Homemade Turbine V2)
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- čas přidán 15. 05. 2024
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In this video I will try to OVERPOWER my Vacuum Cleaner one last time with the help of one of my viewers. He designed better impeller models and in combination with a new BLDC motor and driver, we want to find out whether we can beat the original design. So come along as I test static pressure, air flow and run into lots of problems during this last attempt. Let's get started!
Thanks to Rohde & Schwarz for sponsoring this video.
0:00 DIY Vacuum Impeller got Destroyed!
1:12 Intro
1:57 Measuring Static Pressure of DC Motor
3:22 Old DIY Impeller Design Static Pressure
5:35 NEW DIY Impeller Designs
8:04 Practical Vacuuming Test + PROBLEMS
10:03 Verdict - Věda a technologie
It's almost like the Bosch engineers knew a thing or two about designing a vacuum cleaner 😆
Haha true.......next time I beat them ;-)
It's like the one time where bosch engineers designed something that sucked and it was a good thing
It’s like the saying that anyone can build a bridge with enough steel and concrete, but an engineer will build one that is efficient in use of materials, adhering to time, safety, and budget constraints.
And have a little more resources available than just 3D printer
Actually the only major difference is that Bosch uses Glass Fiber PA6 nylon. So the strength is WAY up. But you can easily 3d print it.
From an ex vacuum engineer - it isn't as simple as either 'max flow against no back pressure' or 'max pressure pull with no flow'. What matters is the inbetween, and whether your impeller performs well in series with the back pressure of the vacuum's filters. Vacuum cleaner companies use a metric 'airwatts' to characterise it - pressure times flow rate (in SI units) actually cancels out to watts, and you can compare your electrical power in to your air moving power out!
Thanks for the feedback :-)
Amazing info! Your old job sounds cool as heck too btw.
@@DrGooseDuckman it sounds like it sucked... a lot.
@@Komeuppance Get out.
also called P/Q-Curves
I hope you do part 3 and keep leveling this up. Even if you buy a dyson, its fun to learn this stuff!
Please do a part 3 and beat the original
You should take a look at the way cutting discs are attached to angle grinders. They are held on by a nut that's threaded opposite to the spinning direction. The centrifugal force keeps them tight, they will never come undone on their own.
that would be hard to implement here, then again he can fix a coupler to the shaft and drive a bolt into the coupler from the top of the impeller but that solution would be bulky.
@s.sradon9782 he could try to thread it, or get one that's threaded
At the risk of being pedantic wouldn't that be the equal but opposite tangential acceleration?
@@first-thoughtgiver-of-will2456 You're asking that with the bold assumption that I know what that means...
@first-thoughtgiver-of-will2456 at the risk of sounding pedantic (and maybe antagonistic) it's actually the interplay of normal/frictional/inertial and drag forces. Centrifugal plays no real role in holding the nut on, and acceleration only plays a part at the start of the motion and in the form of vibrations.
I just want to say that also printing an impeller removal tool was a very nice touch & not something I expected to see. Great job!
All thanks to Marko ;-)
@@greatscottlab Nice! He was definitely thinking ahead there.
I never would have thought I'd watch a 3 part series about a vacuum cleaner. Lol
3 parts? Only at 2 parts so far. But who knows what comes next ;-)
@@greatscottlab I'll be waiting. 😉
@@greatscottlab this person is ready for a 3rd part, just like me :)
Put a groove on the end of the motor shaft - spin it up full speed and use a triangular file - and then a circlet will keep the impeller in place.
Oh boy. Love that idea. Will try it in the future
To transfer the torque better and make it easily removable you could also use equaly spaced grub screws. or if you want something non removable you could grind a divit in the motor shaft and also some in the 3d printed hole and then glue it. That way the glue will not just keep the rotor from slipping but instead mechanicly lock it on the shaft
@@quelixfenzer5108 once you've gone to the trouble of grinding a axial slot in each, just go ahead and install a key: that's the traditional solution to transferring torque from a shaft
@@RossReedstromYou cannot key a shaft this small, that looks to be smaller than ∅5mm.
Well, you can - it just wouldn't make very much sense, shafts this size are usually secured using "dog point" set screws, with according holes in the shaft, or with cone point set screws if the shaft must not be weakened further.
Removing material for a keyhole from an already undersized shaft isn't a great idea.
I'd bet a regular pair of set screws with flats would serve him right and it would all be achievable at home using a file and a tap.
@lazar2175 if he really wanted to he could use an edm machine to make the initial hole and some specialized tap for hardened material. I don't know much on the tap side, but an edm can cut through any hardness of metal.
Create a black hole
Maybe next time ;-)
Buying the famous vacuum brand will create a black hole in his wallet all by itself
For part three, maybe include a "turbo button" with a 30s timeout that runs the motor at ~95% of the maximum that the motor and controller can handle and run it at whatever level the lady deems acceptable all other times.
Dyson already does that
@@fusseldieb Oh my god. Noo waaay.
Roger that, I own one. I was curious about how our friend here would implement a similar function.
the actually vacuum cleaner is a turbo, but instead of using exhaust gases it has an electrical motor, whatever it sucks instead of going to the engine goes to the bag
@@chikogotaThey said a _turbo button,_ not a _literal turbo._
The closed impeller design they used can make a massive difference for static pressure.
On impeller to motor connection just get some metal(alluminium) hub for plane/car model motors and make the impeller connect to the hub instead of the motor shaft. This will introduce much higher surface and possibly hard connection to it.
3d printing is not suitable (not yet) for something that needs to be as precise and strong as an impeller.
Add a boost button to overclock the motor for short periods of time, if you get in trouble spots
Good idea
overclocking vacuum cleaner, sounds cool
I can hear his girlfriend complaining that her knickers got sucked into the vacuum when she pressed the boost button!! 😆
I'd like to publicly acknowledge how much Scott cares for his girlfriend. Clearly, her ability to quickly and efficiently vacuum his apartment - and, therefore, *her* quality of life - is hugely important to him.
He for sure is a huge feminist and not old school
@@gamesnic????
@@gamesnic???? What?? Caring about women is not feminism....
@@nikkiofthevalley it's exaggerated to be a joke.
If he really cared for his GF he would do the vacuuming himself.
Was in Germany last week and met some Rohde and Schwartz engineers. Lovely guys
Awesome! :-)
Love your persistence. Enjoyable!
you should try getting the impellers SLS or SLA printed. It should help with airflow by having a smoother surface, and the SLS one can be CF Nylon, which should be plenty strong and light for this application
Would be a costly surprise if it actually sucked up all the water and spilled to your lab bench.😅
Happened off screen with the commercial solution. Luckily it was not too much.
@@greatscottlab that must pack quiet a punch!
@@greatscottlab Actually, RC Test Flight reports it happened to him too 😀
I respect your effort and persistence.
Some BLDC motors just have a nut on the end that you can use to ensure the prop doesn't walk off the shaft. Some are even reverse threaded such that when the motor spins, the screw tightens down on the part. You could also go for a keyed shaft to reduce rotational slippage.
Wow very interesting video! I have done a lot of airflow and suction measurements and most important for good cleaning power is the airflow from the floor nozzle. I have dedicated airflow/suction box for that. I can seal floor nozzle to the box and get very accurate readings.
I would highly recommend screwing the impeler in place, either on the top or side of the shaft. I believe it is necessary for any fan system to function correctly.
You might be able to alleviate the impeller pulling itself off by implementing some set screws. This of course though means redesigning the impeller and also adding some rotational weight.
The way you say "Awesome" is AWESOME!
You should consider making a closed impeller design. They are great for static pressure.
Great work. Vapor polishing would improve the smoothness of your prints and should provide some level of performance gain as the airflow over the blades should be smoother. You're probably losing a lot of efficiency to airflow past the clearances between the impeller and the housing. Perhaps SLA printing would be a better option, as it's higher resolution and it also produces smoother surfaces.
Great video! You win some, you lose some. You always learn! Well done.
Use resin printing instead for strong and better quality prints. Also use some kind of locking system for impellers.
simply perfect project
Wow Scott, watched your videos many years ago.. never ever did I thought to see the man behind the voice after all these years
GLAND SEALING SYSTEM.
is a technique used in steam turbines to make the bushing "air tight" without having contact with the shaft.
Try adding it to your design.
These are the experiments I definately like!
No no no , you can't imagine how i love ur channel man
Strongly fixing the rotor to the shaft will solve a lot of future problems.
Yep. That was the biggest problem. I hope to reliably solve that in the future.
@@greatscottlabi would prrsonally use a small worm screw that goes trough the impeller and grabs the shaft.
@@triaxelongd3337yes grub screws would be great for that, especially if he makes a lil groove in the shaft for it to bite in, or even better use an actual pinion RC gear for one of those motors and something in the impeller that can hold onto that
@@greatscottlab I would make the shaft something like a screw, or add a groove and use a retaining clip.
I wonder if a duplex impeller, with a single inlet and two outlets would balance the thrust forces against each other? There would have to be a new inlet scroll...
The "two" impellers would be "attached" at the inlet end.
Can't wait to hear your review of SPECIFIC BRAND vacuum cleaner, I plan to get one myself too.
Can't wait for part 3!
A grub screw will help with keeping the impeller on. It will have to be factored into the design. As far as the impeller is concerned you could try carbon fibre filament, it may be stronger. The other option is creating a silicone mold of it and using a casting resin or making a clay mold,and using aluminium to cast the part.
Or simply buy the cold side wheel from a car turbo which is pretty much the same shape.
Be sure to check out the Tineco Pure One. We have several clients with handheld Dysons that we occasionally use if we're just adjusting something or didn't make a big enough mess to grab our Festool shop vac from the truck. One of these clients replaced theirs with the Tineco when their Dyson died and couldn't be repaired. The Tineco is way quieter and feels less like it's been overly value-engineered (just feels more solid in general).
I have one and like it a lot. Can vacuum with the kids in bed.
Filters clog up though, every none dyson bagless system is kinda crap.
These two videos just reminds me again how hard and complicated fluid dynamic is, and paying the price for geniuses to do it right is well worth it for my dumb mind.
This is the first video I’m watching of yours but I just wanted to say your intro was beautiful
Just a heads up PCBWay does polymer SLS printing. Maybe they'd sponsor a V2/MK2 of the 3D printed impeller.
JLCPCB does that too ;-)
@@greatscottlab
Ya know, I might be wrong and it's actually JLpcb. I'm not sure now, I'm gonna ask the almighty google 🤣😂🤣
Edit: it's both : )
^
I guess one way to have the turbine stay on the shaft is if the sucking end of it was pointed towards the motor, that way it would only pull itself more securely on. That being said making something like that work from an airflow perspective and work within the packaging confines of the original vacuum would be extremely difficult.
Have you considered finding a motor with a threaded shaft and using embedded nuts in the impeller to connect it? When spinning in the correct direction, it will self-tighten itself to the shaft.
Try to saturate the printed parts in super glue or clear nail polish it helps solidify the prints and can achieve a smoother finish. 👌
Thanks for the tip!
Or - vapor polish some ABS :)
Which material and nozzle size did you use for printing the impeller? Smaller nozzle (like .2mm) would probably make a smoother part with less friction, Polished metal even better. Very cool test btw. As other commenters mention of course Bosch/Dyson engineers will get a better result. Imo. it all matters how close one may get by experiments at home..
I believe the cap on top of the fins, on the original, was to increase static pressure at lower rpm's .. also static pressure increases with multiple stages.
People often emulate automotive turbos without taking into account the facts. They have very tight tolerances, and operate at extreme rpm's, some at over 100,000 rpm. At those speeds and pressures, the chamber itself becomes the cap on top of the fins. The cap on the fins will leverage the lower rpm window for your materials of choice, and those often used for mass produced products.
U can etch a dimple on one side of the motor shaft and add a security screw to keep it in place so it doesn't fall off. Belt pulleys use it like that to keep them in place.
Impeller balance will play some role in negating performance at higher rpm’s. That being said I believe you’re on the right track, I figured you’d buy a metal turbo impeller and try that but I respect the commitment to designing your own!
Nice effort, part 3 will entail installing a wall mount with 2 screws for your shiny new Dyson.
I think you can take it a bit further. I'm very familiar with RC motors and we never use a press fit gear as they'd come right off the shaft like you're seeing. A simple fix would be to integrate a 48p RC pinion right into the impeller. You'd need to add some gcode to pause the print so you can insert the gear directly into the part and then keep printing to seal it in. This will give you teeth on the gear to engage the impeller directly and a small hole in the side of the impeller will give you access to the pinion's set screw. The set screw in the pinion will lock the whole assembly onto the motor.
Vapor polishing would improve the smoothness of your prints and should provide some level of performance gain as the airflow over the blades should be smoother.
You can print a bolt hole from the side of propeller, and bolt another filament bolt .That might hold it
You just need a longer shaft so you can thread a nut or stopper on the end. That's how turbos keep their impellers on, or even some sort of C-clip would work.
To handle more power you need to fix the impeler with something stronger like an extended axle from the motor with a nut for exemple
With a bigger impeller it needs to spin faster I order to perform similar. Also the layer lines are holding you back. Try a vapor smoothed ABS print
Surface rough ness of the 3d printed parts will impact your pressure and airflow i believe, either smoothing out the pieces or printing in resin would help with that.
I'd be so curious to see the work/math behind impeller and housing design. It is such a mystery to me, and the resources online aren't too great.
I would try printing it out of resin or sanding the fdm down for better results due to the airflow not being as optimized additional you could simulate the airflow in a cad software
If you want, I design and work on these for a large turbomachery company (the big blue ones), and can offer you some pointers, both with how the impeller is attached, and why you are having such issues with static pressure
Good job, great video thanks
I hope you enjoy your brand new vacuum cleaner!
Its always a good day when you upload 😊😊😊😊
Happy to hear that!
Congratulations on your new Dyson vacuum.
You could also always modify the top of the rotor shaft for mounting
30 year home repair contractor here, and I use the exact extractors in the video without any problem. You need to apply a lot of force on the drill, and go really slow- allowing the bit to bite.
maybe by using ABS and vapour smoothing you could eek out a bit more performance by making the impeller/cage surfaces more aerodynamically efficient?
Just an idea... use a small turbo. Match the current motor rpm to a compressor map of the turbo. Then use the comressor, then turbine and see how they both perform.
Perhaps with some post processing the FDM prints(sanding, smoothing and sealing), You might be able to get a few percent higher efficiency there. I recall rctestflights videos where he mentions a significant performance penalty with propellers and impellers that are FDM printed without post processing work being done.
have you tried to get rid of the lower half of the blades(blend them in the middle) and at the lower part area to create a cone like shape to redirect airflow.
Did you try to make a small tread inside motor axle instead of using glue? If you don't have a milling machine, print tool to guide drill.
You need to use more radial impeller design not mixed flow impeller to create more vacum, try to maximize the impeller outside diameter keeping a low width
Great video again! Always something new and interesting even for us, the "older engineers"!
One question - which tool do you use for your mechanical designs - FreeCad or another?
Probably fusion 360
He uses Fusion 360, eg czcams.com/video/0P4R91hsMf0/video.html.
Hi greatscott, have you gotten your hands on iron-nitride motors yet? was curious to see what you come up with those.
there should be a distinct eye in the impeller, and quite long blades for this. if you end up with a smaller eye, and more surface area on the blades then you should be able to have a lower static pressure, meaning more suction, therefore having a potentially better vacuum.
Weird suggestion but what if you sand the impeller blades so that the air can slip better. Overall great vid!!
You must work with the surface finish on the impeller and the housing. Surface roughness greatly affects flow attachment and its properties (Reynolds numbers, fluid dynamics, bla-bla-bla; you can easily find a lot of free articles). Long story short, surface smoothness is critical in such applications, and losses in the system scale exponentially with the speed of the blades.
Have you tried printing a 1:1 copy of the original design? I wonder if matters such as surface finish on the blades affect the airflow?
To make it have even more efficient and increased static pressure, a diffuser must be there in the motor housing
I had the same vacuum and boy was the change to a new one was worth it.
the axis of the motor is smooth therefore it doesn't bite well into the plastic. also I see sometimes a bolt perpendicular to the axis, that prevents the axis from slipping from its position, translation AND rotation are blocked this way.
One thing you could have done is reduce the intake diameter for the casing that houses the dirt to increase the suction pressure
It seems that compared to the original it is very hard to create the sort of print you need especially with all of the clearance issues, would an resin printer make any sense?
Lastly you have made amazing progress on getting close to your goal but these designs will go extremely well for the people looking for a vaccume cleaner that is not actuallly replacing the original one.
You need to key the impeller to the shaft with a locking nut on the end. That will solve your impeller walking issue..
I'm not a vacuum designing engineer like the commenter below but I used to engineer centrifugal liquid pumps so I know a little bit about this subject. The static pressure will go up with impeller diameter and/or RPM squared. Google "fan laws", it will be valuable information. The blade angle of attack won't affect static pressure much because there isn't any flow through the blades during this test (weird I know). One cool thing about these kinds of devices is one might think the shaft torque would go up if you restrict the flow, but actually it goes way down. Notice that you hear a vacuum cleaner motor speed up when you cover the hose. The load on the impeller comes from the flow rate of fluid that is being accelerated so more flow = more torque and power required. What happens to the motor power in your experiment when you go from open hose to the static pressure test? If you cover the outlet the flow goes down but the fluid density goes up. I think it will still consume less power (I designed liquid pumps with constant density so I have no actual experience with this). If you can design a "volute" on the outlet of your pump that gradually expands the cross sectional area, it might improve the performance although I don't think you have the room to do this in your housing. The purpose of the volute is it acts as a diffuser to have pressure recovery as the fluid decelerates.
If you sand a rought patch on the motor shaft and then put the glue in the bottom of the impeller before pushing it on it will handle alot more speed before the glue fails
I was about to give this a try myself, thanks for the warning I'll not be able to achieve it!
You use an open impeller design, which causes recirculation flow around the impeller blades, lowering the efficiency. Try using a shrouded impeller and reduce the clearance around the impeller and the shroud.
Cool video, great channel ❤
I wonder if the FDM printing is causing some issues in strength. Spinning that fast with that much airflow, the blades must be flexing somewhat. Barring injection mold (which I assume Bosch used), maybe a resin printer could make a difference?
Get PCBWay to print you a 3d metal impeller of the best design you have and add a set screw to secure it to the motor shaft!
Let me know if you're interested in more details -- but I've made a similar type of impeller (and propeller too) with 3D printing -- the best way to secure it (I found) was to use small brass inserts and insert them into the round bit in the middle (in-between the blades) to screw into the motor shaft. Since an iron won't fit in the small gap, I would screw in the head-less bolt into the insert, hold it with needle-nosed pliers, then heat it up with a blow torch - then pushing the insert into the plastic between the blades. I would then cut down one of those head-less bolts (forgot their name) so they wouldn't stick out and use an allen-key to tighten them on EITHER: 3 sides | OR on the top and bottom of the motor shaft for more even securing. And BOOM can run it as fast as you want and everything -- hope this helps :)
Out of curiosity, a question to our mechanical engineers: How much does the surface finish affect the outcome in such a system? The printing looked quite rough tbh.
not much i think. You're trying to generate a huge negative pressure, you don't need turbulent free airflow for that.
what about the original impeller with the new motor? my guess would be that electrical motors have come a long way since the original one was designed, whereas the turbine geometry of the original was already pretty optimized.
If you decide to buy one get a Miele at least, they are fantastic vacuums! There is not only Dyson! Maybe you can also ask them for some infos about theirs since they're also from germany. (I think there vacuums are made in asia though, still great quality)
Hello Scott! Do you consider printing the impeller with other materials, for example ABS?
Because in general the density of ABS filament is about 10% lower than PLA and PETG.
Maybe saving a bit weight on the impeller can help the efficiency. Thanks!
Weight makes no difference once it's already spinning. Also more ductile plastics will deform at high rpm and rub on the outer housing
@@harrylenon9594Weight certainly DOES play a factor. Weight = LOAD. The more load, the harder the motor has to work. When the motor is capped at a set power limit.. it will reduce the overall RPMs with a heavier load. The load might also be amplified, as you move the vacuum around.. as the extra mass with create more vectoral forces.
@@johndough8115 no, if the load has the same friction with its surroundings, it will reach the same top speed. Acceleration will be higher with lower inertial load, but top speed will not change. At constant speed, weight plays no role in power draw.
@@harrylenon9594 There is a channel that makes Custom fan blade designs. Certain designs are heavier, use more blades...etc. They all spin at different RPMs, despite the exact same motor being used.
@@johndough8115 yes, different DESIGNS.... the design will determine the drag on the propeller while spinning, not the weight. If you did a test with two identical blades, only difference that one is heavier, you'd find the lighter blades spin up to max speed faster, but have the exact same top speed
Keep it up Bro.
Is the static pressure of the impeller the NPSH? Does the terminology scale with suction pumps?
Hi!
Why didn't you start from original form propeller to create a new, more big or with other angles?
Other thing, original propeller with a non brushed motor? Simply...
Happy to see you! Continue!
Would some sort of compound system work maybe. For example if your hoover had a shaft for floor work, a system to lift dirt off the floor them the motor in the normal place to complete the cycle. a little little having a lift pump and primary fuel pump in a car.
exciting project. Impeller design is a bit of black magic
seeing you do this makes me wonder about swapping out the old big heavy DC blower motor out of my 88 suzuki's ac system with a brushless motor from a skateboard... still drive the original blower fan but ya know.... a motor that probably makes the more torque an HP then the original brushed motor that doesn't even have PWM for speed control...
have you thought about using slots on the motor shaft and secure the impeller with a screw?