The Oldest Dragon Myths and its Origins
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2024
- The Dragon Myth is one of the oldest mythologies in human history, and is known all across the world, hinting at its early origins. In this video we follow these myths to their origin, the first mythology and the time it started, and on the journey we explore myths form China (Loong), Australia (The Rainbow Serpent), Africa (The Rain Snake), and Europe (Vrtra and NgWhi), as well as Paleolithic Rituals, and the psychology of why the myth has persisted so long.
*If you want to support my research and see behind the scenes work, watch my videos early, and other insights then please become a Patreon*: / crecganford
References used by Researchers split by Geographic Region to which they apply can be found in the paper: D’Huy, Julien. Le motif du dragon serait paléolithique: mythologie et archéologie. 2015. HAL Open Science. I couldn't note them here as they were longer than the description allows.
Additional References used by Crecganford:
Azania: Archaeological Research in Africa (2013): ‘Rain snakes’ from the
Senqu River: new light on Qing's commentary on San rock art from Sehonghong, Lesotho, Azania:
Archaeological Research in Africa, DOI: 10.1080/0067270X.2013.797135
Orphen 1874 (see PDF)
Balcetis E. and Dunning, D., 2010 - Wishful seeing: more desired objects are seen as closer. Psychological Science, t. 21, 147e152.
Blust, Robert. The Origin of Dragons. Anthropos , 2000, Bd. 95, H. 2. (2000), pp. 519-536.
D’Huy, Julien. Le motif du dragon serait paléolithique: mythologie et archéologie. 2015. HAL Open Science.
Lobue V. and Deloache J.S., 2008 - Detecting the snake in the grass: Attention to fear-relevant stimuli by adults and young children. Psychological Science, t. 19, p. 284-289.
Öhman A. et Soares J., 1993 - On the automatic nature of phobic fear: Conditioned electrodermal responses to masked fear-relevant stimuli. Journal of Abnormal Psychol¬ogy, t. 102, p. 121-132.
Öhman A., Soares S.C., Judth P., Lindstorm B. et Esteves F., 2012 - Evolutionary derived modulations of attention to two common fear stimuli: Serpents and hostile humans. Journal of Cognitive Psychology, t. 24, p. 17-32.
Paulme’s “La Mère dévorante : Essai sur la Mor¬phologie des Contes africains”, 1976
Penkunas M.J. et Coss R.G., 2013 - A comparison of rural and urban Indian children’s visual detection of threatening and nonthreatening animals. Developmental Science, t. 16 (3), p. 463-75.
Propp, 1983. Les racines historiques du conte merveilleux
Chapters
==================================
0:00 Introduction
1:57 Background of Research and Defining Dragons
2:27 A Chinese Dragon Myth
5:42 Phylogentics
9:42 An Indic Dragon Myth
10:46 The Dispersal of the Dragon Myth
16:34 An Indo-European Dragon Myth
17:53 Dragon Rituals
19:01 Physical evidence of Dragon belief
21:18 An Australian Dragon Myth
24:16 The Myths are Connected
24:46 Why did the Dragon Myth persist?
27:47 A South African Myth
31:38 Putting this all together
Is there a particular dragon you would like to know more about?
The oldest name for a Dragon I have come across is the Sumerian "Ushumgal", Ush-Um-Gal = Death-Design-Great.
Fáfnir
Have you heard of the Jibboa of the Huni Kuin people?
@@jamiek8123 The Purple Dragon?
uktena, apparently a horned serpent from cherokee myth that breaths poison and has a hypnotic shining gem on its head
im wondering how legitimate this myth is because it has so many similarities to the slaying of fafnir:
digging a trench, hitting its weak spot, destroying its heart, poison breath
You had my attention with Dragons, but you blew my mind with that 75,000 year date and tracing the story along the lines of human migration. Love this story.
It was a work of syncretism. Dragons, for the Ancient Greeks, were merely snakes or serpents, but as what we call dragons today, they are not real "dragons", they are called like that because the Christian missionaries had the goal of converting people by manufacturing similarities, like "jotum = giants, like the Nephilim or Goliath".
I mean when the aborigines reached Australia there were giant lizards 5x the size of a Komodo dragon who could eat a person whole.
I imagine it may have paid a part especially as that was around 100,000 to 70,000 years ago
Called megalania
Problem today they use fake science on dinosaurs to deny human beings were of a larger proportion in the stories we think we relate to. Adam was a giant. Some say Golgata is his skull.
@@James-sk4db as well as large crocs and constrictors that likely added to the legends. Also, considering that many of the oldest dragon legends were snake like and created storms it's possible those ancient people equated serpentine lightning streaks in the sky as those very dragons.
I'd be interested in learning about the origins behind Ancient Greece's large trove of unique, hybrid monsters, such as the gorgons, the manticore, and the chimera.
And the many headed Hydra.
@@DeanBathaDotCom Which isn't a hybrid monster.... you know, a hybrid of multiple things, with parts of multiple creatures. The minotaur might be one of the simpler one, being part human, part ox.
Hybrids are pretty common in Africa and Asia too I think, like Eqypt and India, just not always evil or dangerous
Egypt
While conducting research of my own, I have found some links between Greece and Egypt and this went beyond the Sphinx. So if we trace Egypt back, might we suggest the Soumerians? Or any people around the Mesopotamia really.
As someone that has worked professionally with dinosaur bones, teeth etc, it's never been lost on me how amazing and scary some of the dinosaurs appear. I found it interesting that in some of these myths the dragons lived underground. To early humans it may not have been a big leap to think these creatures in the ground (dinosaurs) were dragons or creatures from the netherworld. Very good and informative video. 👍🦖
Or possibly the dinosaurs are the bones of the dragons
As much as I love Dragons, that is where my money lies. Early humans found dinosaur fossil, not knowing anything about them(i.e. Time frame) stories of Dragons started, and grew, changed over time with re-telling, until what we call modern Dragons finally emerged.
@@rianmacdonald9454 I would still leave the door open to dragons in a way. There may have been some sort of dinosaur relative that existed during human times. Just because we've never found a much later dragon/dinosaur, doesn't mean they never existed. They could have been a true rarity even. Never say never. 👍
@@Montana_horseman Except for fire-breathing dragons. There's just no way nature would create such an animal, and the ability to breath fire isn't seen anywhere else in the current or past natural world.
The video from the Thunderbolts Project, "Symbols of an Alien Sky" has the best take on the possible origin of dragon myths, claiming they were plasma events when some of the planets were much closer to Earth. But I'm sure exposed dinosaur fossils from the past had to play a more than minor role in all this...
Witnessing a tornado or water spout in person is truly an awe inspiring thing. It definitely brings up the image of a dragon destroying and bringing water at the same time. In Japan, one word for tornado is the same word for dragon. I've consumed many presentations on the origins of the dragon myth and have never heard anyone even bring up the tornado as a possible inspiration for the dragon myth.
What about the idea that a river looks a lot like a snake? Rivers were super important to early humans due to being a source of fresh water. The association with rain in a lot of the tales also seems to bear that out. If you climb a hill and look at a big river valley, you might think "a massive snake came through here and left the water behind". P.s. i love the channel, thank you for making this content!
I'm sure rivers did provide some influence, but the remnants of that motif isn't clear in the mythology we've been left with. Although I do hint at it in the Australian Myth, where the snake carves out rivers.
From a helicopter, not from standing on the shore
Rainbow serpent is arguably a river
My horses will often react strongly to the moving sunlit wavelets on a body of water as if it were a snake or dragon. They seem more afraid of snakes than anything - which gives credence to the hypotheses in this fine video.
@@SoulDelSol which part of “if you climb a hill” did you miss?
The Chinese dragon king’s story is really touching, I bursted into tears, everyone should be grateful for those kind beings.
Facinating, as someone who is also interested in paleoanthropology as well, the thought that our dragon stories are connected to our "snake aversion" going back to our early primate past is thought provoking. The more we learn about ourselves and our past the more connected we are to that distant past. The connecting of the Dragon mottif to stories in South Africa around 75,000 years ago is .... (running out of adjectives here) mind bogling. Thank you for your videos, I enjoy them hugely, wonderful stuff.
Thank you for watching and you're kind words.
Dragons, or dinosaurs are mentioned in the Bible. Have you checked out that history book.
@@joshakins4923history? A true history book wouldn't contradict itself.
@@joshakins4923that's not a history book that's mythology fan fiction
Two interesting Native American creatures are the Piasa and Avanyu. There was a large painting/carving of a Piasa on the cliffs above either the Mississippi or Missouri River. The Avanyu were lake and river serpents that often fought with the Thunderbirds.
I was thinking of the Mishipeshu at several points in this video. It shares similar narrative dna with the Piasa.
Piasa is at Alton IL, north of STL, near where the Missouri and Mississippi meet. It’s 35 minutes from me.
@@HellsCowBoy666 interesting, thank you.
@@Paddyhammer444 I see, what part of the country is that from, from what people?
YES, and if you want further debunking videos 🙃 to ponder on this subject, check out MudFossil University Roger explains the biology of earth and humans and dragons.
Happy hunting the TRUTH
And the origin of those Chinese dragons is that each of them started as a ruler who later in their story becomes a dragon. One myth even describes the yellow dragon being made by combining animal aspects that represented different clans at the time.
Yeah, dragons are just metaphysical imagery to dynastic families.
In brazil we have a dragon myth called Boitatá, it has a snake like apperance that expels fire and eats the eyes of people, is seen as a guardian of the forests
I hope it will appear to those who destroy our beautiful amazon, and teach them money is not the real god of our planet.
Brasileiros por aqui, eae
“There’s only one story. There’s only one person in that story. And that person is you.” This channel does an excellent job explaining how the character and locations change in that story depending on the culture telling it. Here’s a hint for aspiring writers. It’s not the writer’s job to come up with a story. Their job is to keep the audience from realizing they are hearing the same thing over and over again. Writer’s block exist for writers that haven’t figured this out yet. Thanks for the content! I look forward to future videos.
I'm glad your channel exists to discuss these myths in detail. Too long CZcams's been infested with wannabe experts that speak very dismissively about the myths and their origins. It's truly a refreshing experience each time I click one of your videos.
Thank you
I've always wondered if the aspect of the Dragon being a reptile that has the ability to fly, not to mention that many older Dragons have FEATHERS, is due to the fact that it is a composite creature that combines snakes with that OTHER major predator of early mammals and hominids... Birds, specifically birds of prey that would swoop down and snatch away a small mammal, particularly their children, and carry them off over the horizon or into the darkness of night.
This may also indicate the origins of very primitive morality and child-rearing, where what NOT to do in a herd boils down to "dont anger that slithering thing in the water or that flying thing in the air... it'll getcha! And whatever you are doing at the time when it does is a thing we should stop doing altogether"
Just some shower thoughts that popped up whilst watching this.
I wouldn't say dragons can fly. As etheral beings can essentially swim through the ether. Like a fish. When you look at ealier ancient chinese dragons, you can see the fish like aspects of dragons.
or dinosaurs, since it's been found recently that a lot of them were feathered. Fits way more than birds.
One could argue that "boogie man myths" like the dragon are evolutionary traits themselves that humans have developed. Societies that developed these stories were perhaps more protective of their young than ones who didn't have them, which could explain why the myth became so widespread.
@@Yarblocosifilitico people back then would not have know that, so I am not sure why that would apply to the peoples of the past
Birds also attack snakes. Imagine seeing that from a distance, with poor vision.
Kettle's on👍
Happy days!
😅😅
@@Crecganford n🎉n even if 35:33
If dragon myths come from an ancestral/practical memory of snakes, imagine what "dragons" might be to other species...
I've always wondered what an ant colony's mythology might be, or dolphins, or octopodes, parrots, elephants, or armadillos, etc.
That's some xenofiction I might read.
I imagine in the future either whales or dolphins could gain the capability to communicate with humanity’s top biological researchers. We’ve studied their ability to communicate amongst themselves.
I really love that Australian creation myth! It sounds, in the respect for the land and living things, much like the Old Stories from my NA great grandmother! ❤️❤️
As to dragons, I believe that somewhere between the 65 million year old, 2000 pound water-dwelling Titanaboa of South America and the smaller but still huge, aquatic Green Anaconda of modern Brazil there must have been enormous aquatic snakes known to humans that have gone extinct in the last 75,000 years. The original inspirations for the myths perhaps.
I agree. I don't think such widespread tales stem from simple over exaggerations of modern day sized snakes
Opium smoking Jesus freaks thousands of years ago come across petrified dinosaur bones would do it
One of many things that are no longer slithering in this plane anymore
Good point, who knows what fossils will turn up, but also the African Python is massive and one of the most agressive constrictors.
It's more simple: the "universal dragon" is an artificial, more modern thing.
Thank you for the great videos. I went to college in the 90’s during the peak of the anti-diffusionism movement. I use that term because calling my professors regionalists downplays their actual agenda. Any mention of Joseph Campbell and his theories about the interconnections between myths from various cultures was greeted with derision. I always felt that Campbell was onto something and that the various myths and ideas must stretch far back into deep time during the human migrations. It’s nice to see that computers and statistical analysis of these myths is showing that Campbell’s core ideas about their interconnections and diffusion were correct.
That's a shame that they didn't encourage you to leverage your curiosity, and thank you for watching and taking the time to comment.
The first form of the Bible was written in 325BC, 80 years before the Antikythera mechanism, and was called the Vaticanus Graecus, Son of the Divine Serpent, a reference to Fomalhaut, which is shaped like the all seeing eye, in Aquarius, the sign associated with John the Baptist, who was a Setian, the root word of Satan. Just as israel is the Phoenician word for Saturn, or El, Fruit of Isis and Ra.
In the Second Century AD Astrologer Vettori Valentinus used the Vaticanus Graecus to construct a lunar zodiac of 13 months, this correlates to the 18.6/ 19 year Metonic Calendar, found in the earliest known ancient temples, the Bible, Antikythera mechanism, New Grange and the Bru na Boinne, the Chaldeans, Egyptians, Assyrians, Celts, Phoenicians, and inscribed into the Golden Enoch Horns of the Magi, the Eunuch Druid Priests of Cybel, or Kythera, the "Great Mother", (who also has 216 names) in Germany and France. A Druid took 19 years to train, and the Phoenix was associated with 19 flames.
TLDR; the ancient metric system of time used by the builders of the Megalithic sites all over the world directly correlates to the Astrological Zodiac and allows for the surveying of the entire globe.
It's worth noting our current system has 8,640 seconds in a day, just as the sun is 864,000 miles wide. Enoch also wrote 36,525 scrolls, which is 365.25 times 100, the Egyptian number of perfection, which allowed them to calculate things to the second decimal place. The Great Pyramid is a Calendar, based on the Metonic Cycle and the Zodiac, hence the association of Osiris with Orion, and Pleiades Isis, atop the back of Taurus, just as the Phoenician Princess Europa, who rode the Bull. The entire Mediterranean region was also mapped out according to key constellations, marked by these Megalithic structures, which themselves encode these numbers
Other names for Isis include Semiramus, Aphrodite, Europa, Kythera, Cybele, and Cylene.
The Byblos Baal, or Book of Baal is the Phoenician Almanac, a coded book of Astrological cycles used by the Priest Class of Egypt; the Phoenicians, to navigate the oceans. Phoenicians, Celts, Assyrians, Chaldeans, Egyptians and Jews all celebrated their New Year in September, the 7th month, the Sunsign of Ophiuchus, the Serpent Bearer, associated with the healing Gods, and marked by the first New Moon in the 7th month after the start of the Zodiac in Easter, when Ophiuchus is the East Star. In September the East star is Orion, aka Osiris, aka Set, Lord of the Dead. Hence the Aleph, and the Zayim, Alpha and Omega. It's also the Birthday of Jesus, and when he said he would return, at the end of the Age. It's reversed to keep the code secret, and written in metaphor so no one could know what was contained therein.
It's an Enigma Code, literally.
The Metonic cycle, in chronology, is a period of 19 years in which there are 235 lunations, or synodic months, after which the Moon's phases recur on the same days of the solar year, or year of the seasons. The cycle was discovered by Meton (fl. 432 bc), an Athenian astronomer.
The Pyramid is also 230 metres square, or 235 Megalithic Yards.
En-men-dur-ana (also Emmeduranki) of Sippar was an ancient Sumerian king, whose name appears in the Sumerian King List as the seventh pre-dynastic king of Sumer. He was said to have reigned for 43,200 years
His name means "chief of the powers of Dur-an-ki", while "Dur-an-ki" in turn means "the meeting-place of heaven and earth" (literally "bond of above and below") Arc of the Covenant
There are also 86,400 seconds in a 24 hr day. 24 minutes is 1440 seconds, times 100 gives us 144,000
A list of ten kings was composed in Greece c. 280 BC by the Babylonian priest Berossos, and their reign totals 432,000 years. In the Icelandic Poetic Edda it is said that there are 540 doors in Odin's heavenly hall of warriors
Five hundred doors and forty there are
I ween in Valhalls walls;
Eight hundred fighters through each door fare
Where to war the Wolf they go.
The war with the Wolf was the recurrent battle of the gods and anti-gods at the end of each cosmic round. Here we have 540 x 800 = 432,000. In the Mahabharata and Puranic texts, the cosmic cycle of four world ages numbers 12,000 divine years, one year corresponding to 360 human years for a total of 12,000 x 360 = 4,320,000 human years. This is broken down into yugas as follows:
Kali = 432,000 years or 1200 x 360
Dwarpa = 864,000 years or 1200 x 360 x 2
Treta = 1,296,000 years or 1200 x 360 x 3
Satya = 1,728,000 years or 1200 x 360 x 4
The number 432,000 has been found in Europe (1100 AD), India( very ancient, and 400 BC), Mesopotamia (c 300 BC)in reference to a cosmic eon.
At the moment of the Spring equinox (March 21) the heavens are never quite in the same position they were the year before, since there is an annual lag of 50 seconds which in the course of 72 years amounts to 1 degree (50" x 72 = 3600" = 60' = 1 degree) and in 2160 years amounts to 30 degrees or one sign of the zodiac.
For instance, today the sun stands in Aquarius at the Spring equinox, in 1976 the sun stood in Pisces and in the time of Christ it was in Aries. This slippage is known as the precession of the equinox. Copernicus in 1526 AD calculated this same figure. We note also that the lag is 50 seconds/year or 1 degree in 72 years, 30 degrees in 2160 years, 360 degrees in 25,920 years or one complete cycle of the zodiac. But 25,920 divided by 60 gives 432. The ancient Sumerian calendar had five-day weeks or 72 x 5 = 360 days per year. But 360 x 72 = 25,920.
The integer 1200 represents the sum of the years in India for a cosmic cycle. Now
1200 x 201 = 241,200
1200 x 380 = 456,000
1200 x 360 = 432,000
These numbers correspond to the Sumerian tablet list of ten kings who ruled for a total of 456,00 years, a second tablet which lists only eight of these kings with a total of 241,200 years, and Berossos' list.
The Book of Genesis lists ten patriarchs from Adam to Noah and the Flood totalling 1656 years. In the Jewish calendar one year is 365 days. In 23 years plus 5 leap year days we have 8400 days or 1200 seven-day weeks. If we multiply 1200 x 72 we get 86,400 or the number of Jewish seven-day weeks in 1656 (23 x 72) years. Since the Babylonian calendar year was composed of 72 five-day weeks, then in 432,000 days there are 86,400 Babylonian five-day weeks. Then in 432,000 days there are 86,400 Babylonian five-day weeks (432,000/5). Thus the Bible concurs with the other lists as well.
The earth's axis wobble that causes the precession of the equinoxes is given as 25,920 years. Divided by the ancient number called "soss," 60, which was used in calculations, results in 432.
The Greek Ages also bear a close correspondence to the four Yugas of the Hindus: Krita-Yuga, Treta-Yuga, Dvapara-Yuga, and Kali-Yuga. Their method of calculation is described by Ullamudeian as follows:
"In each of the 12 signs there are 1800 minutes; multiply this number by 12 you have 21600; e.g. 1800 X 12=21600. Multiply this 21600 by 80 and it will give 1,728,000, which is the duration of the first age, called Krita-Yuga."
If the same number be multiplied by 60, it will give 1,296,000, the years of the second age, Treta-Yuga. The same number multiplied by 40 gives 864,000, the length of the third age, Dvapara-Yuga. The same multiplied by 20 gives 432,000, the fourth age, Kali-Yuga." (It will be noted that these multipliers decrease in inverse ratio to the Pythagorean tetractys: 1, 2, 3, and 4.)
The Essenes studied the Mysteries of Pythagoras.
His name means Heart (Bel) of the Serpent.
The cycle of the Phoenix encodes the astrological calendar by which they removed 3 days every 630 years. This was expressed in a Pythagorean Triangle of Dimensions 216 by 630 by 666.
6 x 6 x 6 is 216, there are 2160 years in an astrological age, and the Moon is 2160 miles in diameter. The solar metonic calendar using 60 6 day weeks produces 1 extra day every 216 years. There are also 216 Megalithic seconds in a day, and 216 letters in the name of God
216 times 2 is 432, times 60 is 25,920
@@uncannyvalley2350 no
@@godskingssages4724 actually, yes
@@uncannyvalley2350 get back on your medication
"And some things that should not have been forgotten were lost. History became legend. Legend became myth. "
I dunno how people can’t seem to tie together the whole dinosaur thing with the concept of dragons. Makes it make even more sense
I'm Australian and it was great to hear you tell the story of the Rainbow Serpent, Jon! I have to agree with you about the human focus on snakes. There are so many very dangerous snakes in Australia! I live in Mindanao Philippines now, and in five years I have lived here I've only seen one snake, and it was very small and very dead. My Filipina wife here is absolutely terrified of snakes. In Mindanao we do have the King Cobra, Ophiophagus Hannah. In Mindanao Cebuano it is called "banakon". In Mindanao there is the story of the Bakunawa, the moon eating dragon. You might like to look that one up! The story is "Bakunawa and the Seven Moons". By the way, Bakunawa was a great serpent who lived in the ocean!
That sounds great!
Would it be that over the centuries snakes were persecuted/hunted into extinction? On another note, i would be intrigued to hear wether there is a connection between the rainbow serpent and Quetzalcoatl .
@@senseeman It's possible. When you consider the myth of the Rainbow Serpent is about 10,000 years old, and human occupation in the Americas is at least that old, however I haven't seen any evidence.
There’s also the rainbow serpent festival in Victoria. You’ll see more than dragons there
@@kattmazi1934 Sounds good mate! A bit far away from Mindanao where I live now!
Uktena (water Dragon) of the 'Cherokee' (AniYunwiya) had an Ulensuti (Red Crystal with inclusion) in the place of its' Third Eye. It brought the sacred 7-stem pipe to the 'Cherokee' warrior woman at the Healing Lake near Cherokee NC.
I would have never associated dragons with water because in my mind dragons are fire creatures that burn things and I was really impressed that statistical tools developed to study evolution could be used to analyze the different myths to determine a probable origin. My mind was completely blown! Thank you for sharing!
And thank you for watching, and for taking the time to comment.
Dragons are basically wild elemental gods. There is lot of stories about gods turning into dragons as result of the corruption. Most notably Fafnir. Here it is worth to note that god opposing a dragon has commonly same attributes. As such it is possible that he also is a dragon, just in human form as more friendly to humans. Association with fire or poison, was popularized when dragons started being associated with evil. But originally they have lot more elements or even forms. For example Nicors are basically small fairy (spring/mist) dragons.
@@TheRezro There is so much to learn!
The origins of the dragon are fascinating. Id love to learn more about how the rain and river serpent evolved into a winged, fire breathing lizard creature
I will try and get around to make a video about that one day, but it may be some time away.
Here it is worth to mention that in ancient times sky was defined as sea. They sort of believed that world is hollow sphere (not actually flat). Serpents actually didn't fly, but swim in the sea above. But with greater understanding that world is actually on outside of sphere, it evolved into ability of flight.
A very, very naïve interpretation could be that the nose bleeds from the South African story got misinterpreted into being fire coming out of noses... 🤔
This episode was ground-shaking for me. I was "always" curious to find out what was origin of a dragon myth phenomenon (the same for a griffin's) but the truth is more scary than expected...😱
Now I see a dragon, or let's say "a powerful beast", as a symbol of ever present mortal danger for humans from the world of animals (esp. snakes) - an immediate danger affecting our very basic instincts and even our genes - since MILLIONS of years of our (human/mammal) evolution. Then we were just prey...
It's actually MUCH more original to our attention and instincts than "just" 75'000 years-old myth and rituals. Wow.
PS. Connection to the biblical snake in the Paradise is powerful, too! 👍
The Chinese Long started out as pigs in the neolithic, something we have the fortune of being able to ascertain because through the ages many designs carved in jade were standard for their time, with many artisans copying them for hundreds of years, so we can see talismans depicting pigs gradually grow longer, then circular or C-shaped, then start taking on traits of other animals (like scales and antlers) until they became the Long we see today.
So dragons are long pig?
@@NaturalStateWingChun lol yeah
@@NaturalStateWingChun
T
Well that's a prety good idea for spec evo
Being Australian, I instantly noticed the similarity between the Chinese story and the rainbow serpent
Fascinating video to watch. I've been interested in dragon myths for decades. Living in Australia, I loved hearing about the Rainbow Snake. I knew about the Chinese dragons being the source of the 4 rivers in China. I I would love to know about why Chinese dragons became the protectors of emperors and people and were considered as "good dragons', whilst Western dragons developed fire and became the "bad dragons. Finding out how much dragons were involved with water in this video has blown my mind. Thanks for making it.
Thank you for watching, and in my next video I will try and explain the good dragon/bad dragon change. I hope you watch it.
Please do a video about the snake-beheading ritual! That sounds extremely fascinating.
Wonderful work, as always.
It's on the To Do list
I am really glad to see you mention Witzel's The Origins of the World's Mythologies. I have been deeply impressed with his work. It has opened up a whole new world of understanding for me. I am glad to see that his seminal book is being referenced, as I feel he has provided a great jumping-off point for father comparative mythological study, with a sound basis to build from. I think in time his work will revolutionize how we view world myth, both its origins and the timeframe of its origins. Thanks for this video. I am obsessed with dragons, and the reference to Witzel was a pleasant surprise in an enjoyable video.
Fascinating video. I’d love any additional in-depth analysis of any of its aspects.
Thank you, and I have made a video on the Paleolithic snakes found in Europe. I hope you watch that.
If one is curious as to why we don't have dragons; we're just not sharing space with them right now. They're undergoing some changes needed so they comfortably share space again. If you want dragons to be real, we just have to face our fears of them and impress what we want from them upon them. They are "pets"and like dogs, become a reflection of/absorb our qualities; whether we are aware of the depths and heights of our personality or not. That's why self awareness is so important; so we can be aware of what we create and have coming to us. Hope that helps those who desired to know and thank you for bringing up the topic🙏 I love dragons of all kinds and I am being quite invigoratingly inspired by the sheer variety of them💝 (That's why I am watching; seeing if you have any I can add to my collection, thanks again)
Bloody hell subscriber count has shot up a fair bit I knew you would be getting the notice your content deserves before long enough. I think I joined when you had like maybe 4,000 subs. Nice to see your channel growing congrats It probably has been jumping up all the time but I hadn't actually seen you were getting close to 100,000👌
If the story goes back 75k years, why isn't there earlier cave art depicting dragons? Suggested that it's a taboo to draw the dragon. But do modern versions of the story contain that taboo? That essential part of the story was everywhere until 6k years ago, then vanished in each of the different versions. Also hard to square with with South Africa example of the snake dragon. If that is the root and there is a taboo, why does it appear there?
Don't want to go too hard against this episode (love the channel!), but this history is just unbelievable. Notice that it also requires the Australian version of the story to get to Pero and Mexico. There was contact between Polenesia and New World. But enough to displace the most important Aztec gods? That goes against the claim at the beginning of the video that says victorious cultures maintain their myths. Scattered contact is not enough to produce Quetzequatl, and we would be able to track conquest from Polynesia.
There was sop much information to tell, and so I could never cover it all. But I will do in later episodes.
There is a rock carving in Khosian country in either Namibia or South Africa, or one of those countries, depicting a large snake and it's believed to be up to 70,000 years old. I don't know if it was ever confirmed, though. I saw it a few years back.
@@therealdarklizzy Yeah that would be absolutely wild. Looked it up and it was reported, but have since seen plenty of articles by academics discussing the first art, none of which mention this. Must be some dating or interpretation issue, where it is at least not a home run.
@@Crecganford Would love to hear more on this! BTW linked this video to a friend making a syllabus for a class on pre-columbian contacts.
I applaud the amount of research you put in
Thank you, I do endeavor to make sure I try and go academically deeper than other channel's content.
This is really interesting! I wondered about dragon/serpents associated with rivers and seas as confusion with eels, certainly some stories of these serpents make more sense if the creature is actually a fish. But your tails of African rain-serpents seem to at least in part, contradict that idea. Of course rainbows are associated with water/rain and also I've read that the Romans thought they drank water from the world. Another possible influence on dragon/serpent stories are comets which evoked a lot of fear and some recordings of comet sightings include enormous tails that stretched across the sky.
What sounds somewhat anachronistic is that the 75k years old snake brings rain to the people and helps with crop growth while the Natufians credited with inventing agriculture are said to be 15k years old. Was rainfall that important for hunter-gatherers who would get their drinking water from rivers and streams, or were they doing some wild gardening or so or reliant on wild plants which they were missing out on in times of drought?
Edit: Or where there earlier shepherds who needed water for their animals?
That is an interesting question. I suspect the answer lies in the growing evidence that “hunter-gatherer” tribes, while not engaging in what we consider traditional agriculture, have been cultivating “food forests” for thousands of years. Some of these food forests can be shown to have been continually cultivated for thousands of years. So even if those ancient people would not have been planting crops in a manner we recognize as agriculture, they likely did have an understanding of the importance of water to life.
@@samvogel3146 true. What they refer now to as “permaculture”.
In tropical climates, getting less rain than usual is devastating to native plants which are used to getting rain nearly every day. Rain is more important to gatherers than farmers.
I will leave here an Amazonian myth, known in Tupi-Guarani as the Boiúna (Dark Serpent), or Boiguaçu (great serpent): the lady of the Elements, the great snake had cosmogonic powers, explaining the origin of animals, birds, fish, day it's night. Magical, irresistible, polymorphic, terrifying, the great snake has, at first, the shape of an anaconda or an ordinary boa constrictor. Over time, it acquires a large volume, leaves the forest and goes to the river, causing floods and storms. The furrows it leaves in its wake turn into streams.
It has a great appetite, devouring animals, humans and even the jungle. This legend when the boiguaçu devoured many eyes (its favorite part), its body became transparent, the eyes bright as torches, and it started to fly above the rivers during the nights, blinding those who observe it for a long time (the myth of Boitatá , in Tupi-Guarani "fire snake"). During the day, she rested in caves near the river. It is said that her evil only ended when they built a church over the cave where she slept, keeping her imprisoned.
It's not a dragon myth per se, but I see some similarities with some patterns in dragon and rain serpent myths. Note: there are some versions of this myth, some more benevolent, others not so much, but what I reported above has the most common points between versions.
A Deep Dive into the 75 to 100,000 year old South African Dragon myth would be my ask .
This was so fascinating! Thank you for your hard work making these videos. I felt so sad when you said how much we've distanced ourselves from the thinking of our ancestors by forgetting/not remembering their stories. It really makes me want to learn more. I would love to learn more about the dragon cave ritual in France you mentioned where the snakes were sacrificed! I haven't watched all your videos yet, so not sure if you already addressed this in another video.
Thank you for your kind words.
I've never clicked a video faster, absolutely love your content 👍
Edit: these kind of videos where they show how there were many prehistoric religions or myths that influenced even modern-day culture and humanity in general over the millennia feels like esoteric knowledge almost, like once you know it you can start to see it in every modern-day religion and it just makes everything click together you know? It makes me feel like the natural evolution of all religions would have eventually been towards Nature in general if that makes sense, like if the Abrahamic religions hadn't essentially taken over half the world and the influenced religions had continued evolving instead of dying out. Sorry if this sounds like a ramble XD
The more I learn about dragons, the more I learn about my self. Sounds weird, but there is a lot to it. Thank you for this
You have been a delight to listen to whilst I'm at work and to hear so much about dragons and their myths and origins has been a pleasure!
Thank you so much.
That's a great explanation of the evolution of mythology and syncretism.
The topic I did not know I needed to know 😃 great video
A question, if Japan's dragon myths have their origins in china's own, why do they suddenly seem to be more Indo-European in motifs? Like the Yamata no Orochi, an eight headed serpent which was defeated by a storm god via drink and in the process rescued a maiden?
I just recently spent time researching the storm figure fighting water serpent myth. It seems in almost every place it is associated with Y-DNA Haplogrouo R. It is also found in Iriquois mythology, and in many thunderbird myths of Ojibwe and Dene people. All those groups share high levels of R1b, while other Native Americans who don't, seem to not have that particular myth. I know the Jomon people inhabited Japan thousands of years ago, and some believe they are related to the Ainu or Siberian populations.
It seems most likely that myth originated with Haplogroup R carriers in central Siberia (Mal'ta Buret Culture) and spread outwards towards Europe and East Asia, and the Americas. There is a theory that Na-Dene languages of the Americas, including Navajo, are related to a group of languages in Siberia which I believe are called the Yenesian language family.
Some think the ancient Botai archeological culture, which may have attempted horse domestication, was related to the modern day Yenesian branch of languages. The Botai lived in relative proximity to the Yamnaya in central Western/Central Siberia, so it is easy to imagine they would have cultural similarities. There is another Haplogroup associated with the Na-Dene/Athabascan expansion into the Americas though, so either the initial migration carried both Haplogroups R1b and the other one, or they represent separate migrations that either one or the other, or perhaps both brought similar beliefs.
The other Native American cultures that lack the Storm Deity/Serpent mythos are descended from earlier migrations associated with Haplogroup Q. The Navajo don't seem to have that myth to my knowledge, but they also were assimilated to other neighboring groups like the Hopi, and if I remember correctly, their myths share similarities with the Hopi. I am not sure though. It is important to note that Haplogroups R and Q (The first wave of migrants that populated the Americas) separated more than 25,000 years ago, and since the earlier Natives harboring Q don't have that myth, that implies that the myth likely originated with Haplogroup R, or a closely associated population, before being spread out.
The only other thing is the presence in the Middle East of similar myths, but the origin of these seems centered around the Levant and Mesapotamia, and those regions have heavy admixture from the Caucusus prior to the origin of agriculture, as well as small amounts of Haplogroup R documented in ruling classes in Egypt and I think Sumeria, too, so it might have arrived there from cultural diffusion from neighboring cultures.
I didn't expect to write an essay about this on my phone, but I just wanted to share my findings. If you've read this far, thank you for your patience!
I am absolutely loving this channel. After the past few weeks I have binged a fair chunk of your videos. Thank you so much.
And thank you for watching them and your support.
THAT AUSTRALIAN DRAGON MYTH BLEW MY MIND
I had to hit up that Patreon. I look forward to each new video. I'm glad to support this great work, and can't wait for what's yet to come. Thanks so much.
Thank you for your support, it is very much appreciated
I would definitely like to know more about the snakes in the caves!
I wonder, if humans are so predisposed to see snakes as a threat, why the rain snake would be seen as good or beneficial? Or if they saw it as an ambivalent or negative figure but one with power that could be used for human benefit through ritual?
Thank you for watching, I will definitely make a video about the ritual.
Humans come from africa, lots of deadly snakes there. Thousands of generations of “[point to one type of snake] that dangerous” becomes “[points to ALL snakes] that dangerous”
@@Crecganford Please do, this is fascinating and you seem to enjoy sharing your knowledge.
@@HellsCowBoy666 Right, but at some point, the dragon became positive in China or something, which is weird
Answer is: we clearly aren't predesposed to see snakes as a threat at all.
Very useful knowledge. Interesting...Neat organization with the chapters, specific dragon types and detailed origin stories. Loved it. Keep up the good work!
Fascinating topic. And your ability to switch between providing information and telling stories makes your videos a real joy to watch.
Thank you
I'd like a video expanding further and more deeply into the original South African mythology surrounding the water snake thing. It seems really fascinating and central to the emergence of the conception of a Dragon.
Try looking up the inkanyamba. There's some public papers about it. It's a flying snake and a tornado that's all tied up with storms and bodies of water, and initiation within the water world. It's also acquired modern permutations like the iconography being influenced by Saffa Tolkien fans.
Sounds a lot like Enki!
Great stuff! So happy to have discovered your channel. Thanks!
And I’m happy you’re watching the videos too!
I've heard the theory that snakes are an amalgam of three of the early, dangerous predators for humans. Snakes, as you said, but also birds and lions. I personally like this idea, since it encompasses many of a dragon's somewhat traditional attributes.
Yes, the chimera is just that.
I am not one of these conspiracy theorists who try to prove their point no mother what, you will find a lot of these when you look up if dragons existed. You are the first person I have found on youtube that actually tries to find answers to questions instead of questions to answers.
Thank you for your kind words, they are appreciated, and I hope you continue to enjoy my work as I continue to find answers.
Another very interesting video. Hard to think we're still telling stories based on tales so old. Fascinating. Thank you.
Thanks! This was so cool. Its amassing how aspects of a myth change and get incorporated into other stories.
Thank you
Hey, Medieval Historian here (Anthropology minor), focus on Snorri and Scandinavian History and Mythos 4 decades ago (Tyr is cognate of Zeus, etc), but recently delving into Proto Indo European linguistics, European genetics pre-Neolithic to Bronze Age, stuff like that. One question, weren't the Indo Europeans sexist, genocidal slavers who slaughtered their way across Europe, replacing the Y chromosome of the entire continent in an amazingly short period of time by using chariots and bronze to kill all the men, elderly, and children, while enslaving the women, like Tollense, but, everywhere? Sure, the gene for lactose tolerance spread with them, again amazingly fast, but look at what we know about the Hittite court, those guys were homicidal, kin-slaying pricks. I don't buy the Kergan hypothesis wholesale, the urbanization of the fertile crescent was no hippy love fest, but the steppe, pastoralist world view seemed to take the male- female relations of horses and cows and internalize it in their culture: powerful men controlling the breeding of large groups of women, sons being expected to leave their home territory and take someone else's, and with chariots and bronze, the European agrarian and H-G cultures were doomed. Only their X chromosomes and faint echoes of local mythologies survived. Also, the understanding of the spread of chariots in the Fertile Crescent is pretty fuzzy, did the Indo Europeans pushing into the Middle East cause increases in militarization, societal stratification, and slavery? Guess that's 2 questions.
We are their descendants, genetically and culturally, and frankly, with 7 billion of us on a planet that can't support us, maybe exploring how Indo-European influences have lead us to the Imperialistic, greed-based hellhole that is recent history would be productive. Did we do any better with cannons and sailing ships than they did with chariots and bronze? If we keep on thinking like that, are we doomed to destroy the planet? Guess that's 4 questions. Notice how the rich and powerful among us seem to be eyeing the moon and Mars now that they've screwed up the planet, funny about that.
75,000 years…that just makes you question what early man saw to imagine dragons.
Glad I stumbled across your channel! Looking forward to watching more of your videos!
Fascinating! Another fantastic video. I like the way you provided some of the myths from different regions along with the statistical evidence on where and when they come from and the original myth as well as theories as to why evolution led us to developing these dragon stories. A really rich analysis of the topic, thank you for sharing your knowledge and putting in the hard work to produce such well crafted content. May your channel continue its meteoric rise!
And thank you for watching, and taking the time to comment. It is appreicated.
John, thank you for your channel and for this very informative video on snakes and dragons. I have been watching your channel for a month now and have viewed many of your older videos on Indo-European history, languages, and mythology. I appreciate your methodical and scientific approach to these subjects. I have shared your channel with my sister, who also has a fascination with these subjects. Please continue your scholarly work, and this CZcams channel. Thank you.
Thank you for your kind words.
That was awesome! I've watched many Crecganford videos and loved them all. I've learned so much about these old myths and stories. I think this video might be my favorite! 75000 years is mind blowing!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Such a fascinating topic! Thanks for the rundown
Oh wow. That Rainbow Serpent story is quite different from the one I knew growing up (the serpent was far less benevolent). That's an interesting difference. Which mob was your version from? I'd love to read more!
I found it in a paper on Australian Folk Tales, and then tweaked it a little to be more easily consumed in video format. I would love to hear other versions.
@@Crecganford I'll see if I can locate the version I had (same basic premise - the serpent travelling across Australia created the gullies, rivers etc). But in the version I had the snake had swallowed a number of people and two hunters were sent after it. They killed the serpent (and the death throws created mountains of the thrown rocks etc). Then they opened the belly of the snake, but the people the serpent had swallowed had changed into the creatures of Australia (for some reason, rainbow lorikeets are sticking out), which were then released into the world; making humans the brothers and sisters of all the animals of Australia. I need to go revisit it. I'll see if I can't find the exact story and mob it's from.
I've definitely heard this version of the rainbow serpent before as well. Different versions of the rainbow serpent can be found across Australia. While often revered as a creator of the environment it has also been held in fear due to it being quite wrathful especially toward those who violate the law.
This is cool. And awesome sources too. Can you please also cites the source of the artworks next time? I see a few that I know the artists are still alive.
That's a good idea, if the artists name is known I will. Thank you for that suggestion.
@@Crecganford Thank you very much! Keep doing the great work!
It was super interesting to hear this video about Dragons. Jon I am impressed at how much research you have done and feel called to share a little about something very private, I am a "Crystal Dreaming®" practitioner. This is the work of Raym Richards based in Australia, a journey into past lives. In my very first receiving session, I remembered being a young dragon. I was bright green. My parent took me flying to see the sites. We had wings and were robust but kind creatures. I remembered being afraid of humans when I noticed they were around. Humans were not safe. Then I started sobbing, crying uncontrollable and when I was asked why I was crying, I realised I traveled forward in time and saw our forest destroyed by man. This image was very alive and the emotions in me very vivid. And so, I stayed curious about dragons...and about 12 years later, I am finding your video! Thank you
In the Balkans dragons were often believed to bring hailstorms which destroyed crops and wizards would protect their villages by entering trances to leave their bodies in order to fight them and drive then away.
I've always been interested in dragons (in an admittedly casual way), so hearing that you do this kinda stuff for a living is super cool!
Thank you for watching.
Thank you so much! I would have never thought about a common origin due to European dragons being more obviously fire & earth dragons. Many people are astonished when I tell them, there are African dragon myth & tales, particularly popular in our Southern region (Lesotho, Eswatini & Zimbabwe included) - matter of fact essential in the indigenous religions - South Africa is my other home country besides Germany (Japan merely partial ancestry) - so I have been fascinated with dragon /lintwurm tales from early childhood. I find them fascinating from all over the world. Actually, the Southern region & parts of West Africa have dragon /giant water snake legends, as many rivers and lakes belong to a particular river or lake. They were the guardians of the water, at times demanding human sacrifce, but only caused floods or droughts when people polluted or wasted the water. But times have changed. Nonetheless, the stories remain. Though due to Christianity & Islam most people distant themselves from it because they feel uncomfortable about this aspect from their past, others keep silent because they want to protect their heritage. There are sacred issues involved. Many details are not to be found in books because they would only give researchers, missionaries vague stories & versions, also due to the fear of being labelled superstitious, naive & gullible s it happened unfortunately, so much in the past -
I know, this video is 1 year old, I just found it now. You grabbed my attention straight away. 10 min into the video I went to check on your channel and you have a new subscriber. Now I will have to make time to watch everything. 🙂
Thank you so much, your kind words are appreciated.
Hi! I’ve been a fan of your videos for a year now, they’ve gotten me through some hard times and never fail to fascinate me, that’s all i wanted to say, you have a lot of loyal fans, me 100% included.
Thank you so much, your kind words are appreciated.
Beautiful video! I love how you tell stories, really speaks to where we all came from
Thank you
Awesome thank you, it reminds me of the the Jibboa (great anaconda) in the creation stories of the Huni Kuin people of the Brazilian Amazon
18:09 I hope you talk more about all this stuff! AWESOME CONTENT! This is my second of your vids... I cant wait to see more. Good luck!
Tremendous revelations. I've just rewatched this for the second time and feel so well informed now that many confusions of other myths now seem mucher clearer to me. Many thanks for this awesome pearl.
Thank you so much for watching, and your kind words.
Another amazing history channel to binge watch
Thank you so much.
Would love to hear more about primitive snake rituals. Love your videos, always an instant click when I see a new one. Keep up the good work
Thank you for your kind words
I am really enjoying this, this is such good research! flippping amazing!
this is my first visit to your channel & just want to say thank you for such an excellent video!!
Thank you very much for watching it, and I hope you like other videos here.
I am reminded of the two dragons in a pool under a hill that were discovered by Merlin, where Vortigern was attempting to build a fortress. You mentioned the association of underground dragons and water, and this recounting by Geoffrey of Monmouth supports your thesis. But I wonder what Geoffrey’s source was? Any clarification would be appreciated.
That's an interesting question, and one I hadn't considered other than as to be just the influence of "folklore" of the time, but perhaps I should look into the influences of the Arthur story more.
I would like to see a video about the Minoan snake goddess and motifs and if it correlates to serpent/dragon myths
That sounds interesting, I'm not sure I know much about her off the top of my head, but leave it with me and I'll see what I can do.
This was super helpful, thank you!!
Along with snakes being our oldest predator. Dragons are also often given traits from large cats and birds of prey. The other two main predators of primates
Yes please, tell us more about the headless snakes ritual!
Brilliant! Thank you for all the work you put into this video.
And thank you for watchin it
Yes! More.... More! Dragon info. I loved your presentation. Your eyes light up as your share the Dragon stories. I really enjoyed it. Thanks for sharing. 💖
I saw a video about dragons so I clicked it. Found a voice that I could fall asleep too in the most respectful way possible. Very knowledgeable and insightful. You've gained a subscriber. 👍
Thank you so much.
I was lucky enough to live my life right down the road from a dragon that was painted on the bluffs of the river by the American Indians who used to call this area home. Look it up, it’s called “The Piasa Bird”. Just outside of Alton, Illinois. And just upriver from the Indian mega-city of Cahokia.
Amazing as always, and yes to deeper dives on paleolithic snake rituals 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Thank you
Fascinating, thank you! I definitely want to learn more.
I am so thankful to have found your insight and wisdom. Not on line much but look forward to more..
Thank you for watching and your kind words.
As always, an enjoyable video full of myths and knowledge. Love what you’re doing. Thank you very much. 💚🐢
And thank you for continuing to watch my work
The quadruped is interesting as it kind of resembles the Boar which is typically the height of the animal hierarchy in the Celtic belief system and we also have the Dragon/Serpent system too though the latter seems to follow a lot with infinite state (shedding of skin/rebirth) which is consequently why people like the gnostics ended up with the ouroboros and jormungandr is chasing his own tail causing chaos.
a motif related to rain and water undergoes mutations over time, diversifying with migrations. As a result, it becomes a relationship with fire. This is very interesting. Great work Crecganford, I appreciate you sharing this information.
New to the channel, but I really appreciate the scholarly and, at the same time, narrative quality you deliver
Thank you for your kind words.
I really hate snakes, even harmless ones. But! I love dragon stories. I really liked the Chinese Dragon story, or myth, and the Australian story. The south African Bushman's explanation of the cave art suggests something real inspired the story represented in the art. Thank you for another fine video.
And thank you for watching
I was going to be a smartypants and mention the snake recognition studies, but you went ahead and covered it. So I have a question instead: Could the motif of multiple heads have a connection to river deltas?
That is a great question, but too complex to answer here. But one day I'll answer it in my videos
@@Crecganford Awesome, there's definitely a lot more to any of the subjects you touched on in your videos so far. So as much as I love these big picture perspectives, I also can't wait for you to dive into some more details on any of them.
I am a evolutionary biologist and I really enjoy your videos. will love to see a video that dives deep on the methodology. Thanks you.
If you're interested in Phylogenetics, which is really a DNA/biologist application, then I can probably link a few papers as I feel it wouldn't be a subject most of my viewers find interesting.